I posted the link this morning, Sorry if you missed it.

http://www.winnipesaukeeforum.com/ar...mes;read=62784

Once again, I got involved with this accident by responding to a post by SIKSUKR. Perhaps he has more data on the boat and owner. He is the one that supplied a lot of that information to the forum back in 2003. I don't know if he knew the owner, but he knew where the owner worked and lived.

Why does this matter?

Islander, it took you to get me to go back on my pledge that I was done with this thread because of your claim that Bear Islander doesn't YELL in caps or use !!!!!.

Bear Islander wrote this post directed at me regarding his statement that summer camps are afraid to allow campers onto the water because of performance boats going too fast. When I questioned him about it he denied making a link between summer camps and performance boats. As you may recall I repeatedly challenged him on that position, eventually he wrote YELLED this;

#429

Quote:

I HAVE NOT POSTED ABOUT THE SUBJECT EITHER WAY. I HAVE NOT POSTED THEY ARE COMMITTING VIOLATIONS. I HAVE NO POSTED THEY ARE NOT COMMITTING VIOLATIONS. I HAVE NOT ATTEMPTED TO LINK THE TWO. STOP PRETENDING THAT I HAVE!!!!!!! Can you really not understand that these are two totally different things? I think you understand perfectly but can't let it go. DROP IT!!!!!!!

Of course Bear Islander's post # 35 states exactly the opposite of what he denied during the “He said she said” session in which he claimed he never tried to link speed, perfomance boats and and summer camps.

By writing
"I am just one person fighting to have a lake where a camp director can send children out in small boats without fear that they will get run down by high performance boats enjoying the last place they can legally go 130 mph.”

Bear Islander linked the two issues in his argument and by denying it, he/she lost most of their credibility. The great thing about a forum like this is that anyone can go back and look at what was actually posted.

As for the mid 70's Cigarette Boat accident that killed 3 that Bear Islander and his supporters are bringing up, I was directed to this posting on Winnipesaukee.Com
The ONLY Cigarette on the lake! That seals it! Lets ban all performance boats for an accident that happened 32 years ago!

I don't know what happened and I submit to all of you that unless you were directly involved with the accident or investigation, you don't know what happened 32 years ago either.

In March/April 1975 laws and attitudes were very very different than they are today. Do not try to impose today's standards on accepted practices of 30 years ago.

Hello

I have read your post very carefully and I find no contradiction in what BI posted. In one instance he says he wants a lake where "a camp director can send children out in small boats without fear that they will get run down by high performance boats enjoying the last place they can legally go 130 mph.”

It is clear he is talking about the fear in the minds of camp directors. Fear in the mind of a camp director is not the same as violations by performance boats. Seeing a big boat coming at you at high speed can cause fear even if the boat violates no regulations. A parent or camp director watching small children out in a boat while high performance boats go by may be in extreme fear, even if the performance boats are operating legally.

You may see this as being a very fine point, however he is quite correct when he said he never posted about violations. He posted about fear. Woodsy has said its not about speed, its about fear. He has a point.

There is a big difference between a mother (or director) saying she is afraid to let her children go onto the lake on weekends, and saying that boats are breaking the law. I will also add that the greater the speed the greater the fear, and the idea of a boat going 130 mph when my kids are on the lake scares the hell out of me!

I just checked and the two posts in question came 65 days apart. Even if I agreed with your interpretation, wouldn't it be a case of bad memory? Why do you assume its part of a plot? You are looking very hard to find fault when you are comparing posts that are months apart.

Intoxicating Speed...
 

They didn't "just hit the island": They hit shallows before running out of inertia. If they hadn't hit shallows (and a bunch of trees), the cottage that they landed at would have been their terminal destination. (Add the hazard of downed electrical wires for them—and rescuers).

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...1&d=1150071277

The Mount advised NHMP that the boat was "traveling at a high rate of speed", and never reappeared on the other side of Eagle Island.

Suitable for ocean waters? An ocean-racer? Heavy and slow? And now they are fast? :eek:

Anyone know how many years we've been complaining about the ineffectiveness of "Unsafe Passage", and how many years complaining of the ineffectiveness in the enforcement of "Unsafe Passage"?

We tried "The New Hampshire Way", but I think it's proven: "Unsafe Passage" was a well-intentioned flop from the 50s. Ridding the lake of unproven high-speed "drivers" with a proven track record remains the task for the terminal safety of us "lesser boaters".

Here's the link: (Interesting reading, but don't expect The Opposition to elaborate favorably.) :rolleye1:

Yup...and the only boat to make such tragic headlines, too.

Had those same headlines made their appearance last year, even Woodsy would have tossed in his hand.

(Well, maybe not Woodsy—make that Winnilaker). :emb:

Huh??? :confused: Thirty years ago, cottages were sorta-still considered "off-limits" to 34-foot boats entering their dining rooms at high speed.

FACT: Alcohol is in use on Lake Winnipesaukee.

FACT: Alcohol is in use on Lake Winnipesaukee.

(But I repeat myself). :rolleye2:

yesteryear vs. today
 

BI...

It wasn't the boat that killed him... He killed himself and the others...

He violated the law not because he could, but because he was DRUNK and didn't care... didn't think it could happen to him... etc, etc... and it cost him and 2 others thier lives! I refer to this as AIS (Alcohol Induced Stupidity)

WE CAN FIX DRUNK BOATING/DRIVING! There has been a HUGE cultural shift in attitude towards DWI/BWI! Aggressive enforcement coupled with harsh BWI/DWI penalties is the key! Thats what the LEO community and the government have been telling us! In 1975 when this accident occurred, you could still legally drink & drive in NH! You really can't apply todays moral attitude to an accident that occurred 33 years ago.

For example... 33 years ago "All In The Family" was a top rated show! Widely considered an icon of american television, the humor on that show would at best be described as racist & homophobic today. That show would never be produced today!

As far as HP limits go... how do you propose to enforce them? Is the NHMP going to dyno test every alleged violator? Yet another unfunded mandate the NHMP would be charged with enforcing?

Woodsy

PS: Still waiting for the High Speed SOBER accident data!

You make some good points about alcohol abuse. However it is still a big problem in our society.

A horsepower limit is easy to enforce. The HP is listed on your registration.

Yes, I know, in many cases when you register a boat they just write down what you tell them. However then you would be breaking another law with a false registration. I'm sure some boats could sneak it under the wire, but try telling the MP your Nor-Tech is 299 HP.

There are many other lakes that have horsepower limits and enforce them without to much trouble.

Islander...

ANY boat at ANY speed near children should be a serious concern to all! But to my knowledge no child attending a summer camp here on Lake Winnipesaukee has been struck by a speeding powerboat! EVER! While it is definitely natural to worry about children, especially when they are on the water, there are certainly other ways that fear of being struck by a boat can be mitigated... Without taking away another person's liberty!

Someone proposed a "Camp Zone" as a buffer around the Summer Camps? You already have a 150' NWZ buffer, why not double it or triple it around camps to 300' - 500'? Drop a few bright orange info buoys and be done with it? Why would this not work?

The way you post, you would think it was a routine thing to see a boat going 130 MPH on Lake Winnipesaukee... this is blatantly not the case! There are MAYBE 5-6 boats on the lake that can top 100 MPH! That Nortech everyone keeps using as an example was guest on the lake...

Woodsy

Dear Islander,

Please tell me who posted this and please tell me if I see it correctly. Is it in all bold with exclamation points? Please once again I request that you remove your rose colored glasses. I admire that you are sticking up for your friend but please butt out as it I never addressed you in the first place. Your comments are unwanted and biased. This is the last time I will address the issue, please refrain from getting involved. Bear Islander is a big boy and he can handle himself....

To be fair BI,this incident was from recall and I can't substantiate fact.What my aging brain remembers(and I could be wrong but this is how I remember)was that the driver was the owner of Davidson Construction which I believe at the time was located in Manchester.I recall that a "cigarette boat",not necesarily the brand but the type,crashed into a home on the lake at night and the driver was DWI and killed.I don't know of other fatalities whether they were on land or in the boat.That's pretty much all I recall.

Another freedom already lost:(

Just try it!
 

Having been on Lake Hopatcong on a weekend, trying to exceed 30 MPH would be like trying to speed on the Cross Bronx Expressway at rush hour! Not likely to happen!!

You cannot compare Jersey swamps, oops I mean lakes to Lake Winnipesaukee!

Its not speed that kills it is the sudden stop! You can have all the laws you want but that does not prevent people from breaking them. The 150' law is a prime example!!!

So if someone writes something 65 days ago, then REPEATEDLY tries to deny that they wrote it or attempts to deny he was trying to link high performance boats and the fear of a summer camp director that kids will be run down by boats doing 130 MPH then that’s okay because, what? He forgot what he wrote 2 months ago? Forgot to go back and look?

He denied writing it; he denied trying to link the two issues. Period.
So are you saying the accident 33 years ago was the first fatal boating accident on Lake Winnipesaukee? Seriously, are you?
30 years ago drinking and driving was not a crime. Drinking and driving was something that was dismissed as bad judgment and anyone caught doing it was sent on their way. Today those standards, practices and laws have thankfully changed and you are responsible for your actions.
Duh! Wait, there is already a law against Boating While Intoxicated!

That’s true, and I can tell you personally, that as someone looking to expand waterfront holdings on lakes in NH that I have rejected three very nice properties that fit my criteria because they are what my family calls on “no fun lakes” , those that ban petroleum based motors, and even one where you were only allowed to use a PWC or waterski counter clockwise during certain hours of the day! RIGHT! I’m going to buy into something like that! Granted, the lakes or ponds were small but those restrictions, I believed were excessive and I didn’t buy. Looking to make Lake Winnipesaukee something like that and I'll leave here as well and I don't own a high performance boat!

Again, I call on the speed limit crowd to tell me, if safety is the actual concern why not adopt Rule 6?

ADOPT RULE 6 AND BOTH SIDES GET WHAT THEY SAY THEY WANT!

Horsepower Limit? What about the Cruisers?
 

BI,

Many people have who cannot afford, or do not want to own lake front homes have purchased large cabin cruisers and use them like a summer home. By necessity more than three hundred horsepower are required to move these boats, yet most top out at 25-30 MPH. Many of those same people have purchased (or rent slips) to accomodate those boats.

1. What will happen to the value of those slips when no large boats are here to need them anymore?

2. How will the towns make up for the lost tax revenue? Example: Mountain View Yacht Club in Gilford has 284 slips, most approved for larger boats that require over 300 horsepower. It's safe to say that at least 200 of the boats in just that one marina have over 300 horsepower. Reduce the demand for those large boat slips and you have reduced the market value (Think tax value)

3. Should the government enact a law that will seriously impact the local marina businesses that sell those boats? (I know what you are thinking, instead of selling a $350,000 boat they could sell $250 plastic kayaks)

4. How will the state make up for the lost corporate tax revenue when the major marinas on the lake do substantially less business?

5. With less demand comes lower prices. Most people do not want to be at the lake to paddle their kayak or sit on the shore and eat granola. Fewer people will choose to purchase first or second homes on the lake, choosing to go elsewhere where the regulations don't exist. Are you prepared to see your home value decrease? (At the same time the towns will increase the tax rate to make up for lost revenue)

I fall into this category and it is clear that BI is after people like me. I say BI personally because he has said it clearly on the forum. I strongly believe the many people in WinnFABS also have his goal, but they have not said it publicly. It is also my guess that BI will have reasons that every bad effect you list will either actually be good or acceptable losses.

What he and probably the WinnFABS people really want is either a time machine to an imagined idyllic past or complete control of who and what uses the their lake.

Based on my observations and limited understanding of BI, I think he doesn't care a bit about a drop in property value. This is my own opinion, but his agenda leads me to this conclusion.

The cost of lakefront homes is not that much more than large cabin cruisers. In some cases less. Before lakefront prices went nuts a few years ago, several homes in my area sold for under $100k. I just checked the current valuations on Bear Island and found 39 homes under $300k. How much is a new big Carver? And think of how much you can save on slip rental and fuel!

1. They will convert to slips for smaller boats.

2. The town may have more take revenues as people that have left the lake or stayed away do to the unfair use by the rich few ends.

3. Governments enact laws that effect businesses every day. Governments have a RESPONSIBILITY to enact laws that will improve safety and reduce pollution, even if there may be economic impact. Over the years how many times have the auto makers told us increased safety and pollutions standards would put them out of business, or increase the price of cars to where nobody can afford them? The answer is EVERY time.

4. The marinas may do MORE business. Perhaps you have forgotten that several of the marinas in the area support speed limits.

5. Demand will, if anything, increase.

Valuations are not what the real estate is truly worth on the market these days. What's your slice of Bear Island appraised for? What do you think it would bring on the market? I know for a fact that there is a $250K+ delta between my appraisal and what it can/would go for on the market. Most waterfront properties are in the same category. The new big Carver that you wish to ban is not even close to real estate value...

You can check Bear Island evaluations at the link below. My place has a tax value of 341,100. Two months ago an appraiser went to our place by skimobile to value it for refinance. They valued it at 347,000. Our place is, in my opinion, a little better than average for the island.

http://data.visionappraisal.com/MeredithNH/DEFAULT.asp

It's easier to price used boats so I checked usedboats.com and found they list 12 Carvers that are 2007 or 2008 model years. They ranged from 299,000 to 1,474,610 with an average price of $655,000. New Carvers obviously sell for more.

http://www.usedboats.com/used-carver-boats.htm

So you see Carvers cost a lot more than waterfront property. And obviously a boat will not hold its value like real estate will. Making the waterfront home even cheaper in the long run.

True all around Bear Islander. Your house has some big positives, great location!

It is also very true that a Yacht like a Carver is not a good investment that is for sure.

However, with all that said who are we to dictate how people spend their leisure time on the lake? Many of those Yacht owners who own slips in the Marinas would never trade their lifestyle for yours and mine (island life). They don't look at it as a bottom line issue. They enjoy having their boat at the mainland. Remember an island home is not for everyone.

It is not for you or I to tell people how to spend their leisure time (unless they want to go into space). However we have every right to voice our opinions when that lifestyle causes pollution or safety problems on a crowded lake.

I am free to advocate for a horsepower limit if I wish. The responsibility of enacting a horsepower limit falls on the legislature.

Figuring 2007-2008 used, yes the value is higher but out of all the pages of used Carvers only a handul were over the assessed value of your property. Regardless, my point was that assessed value and market value when it comes to waterfront/island property are no where near comparable by a large gap. I can provide a few examples from Mark is you like. This has been covered previously in FLL's post about property taxes.

If you were to list your property today do you feel $347k is a fair asking price, a price that you would cash out at? I doubt it highly, being that the true market for the land alone is not far from that.

We were talking about A NEW big Carver. That is what I originally posted.

The market value a year or two ago was higher. At that time there was a gap between the tax value and market value. However with the drop in the market I think they are about the same, as my experience proves.

Last summer we purchased the empty lot next to ours for exactly 200k. Its tax value is 185,600. Again very little difference, and probably even closer by now.

I think property values are lower than you think. Certainly they are on an island. And as you can see the price of Cabin Cruisers is quite high.

Sorry if this puts holes in the "rich landowners wanting to get rid of the poor folks in cabin cruisers" theory.

Happy to read that Governors Island property is priced so low...

Are we in a deep Depression?

Is it 1929, already?

Will the spin ever stop?

More boats or fewer boats which is it?
 

There are too many posts from Bear Islander to read thetm over again to find quotes. I recall that he wants to impose new speed limits and horsepower limits to reduce congestion and pretend that his way is the best and safest way.

Here you say that marinas may do more business and demand for slips will increase. This you say will lead to less congestion and a safer lake for campers, families and kayaks. How does that work?

Converting condo type boat slips to accomodate smaller boats should be real easy. New documents. Plenty paperwork. Legal issues. New permits if they grant them. New construction if allowed. No more "few rich" to pay for all that work if it is allowed. You have thought this through thoroughly.

Those who are left after being Bear Ilandered will have to pay more so the towns can receive the same income they would if those rich few were still paying their fair share. On top of that who will pay for all the slips to be redone?

All of this you say will reduce congestion, result in smaller wakes, make the lake safer for campers and kayakers and families. Demand for slips and marina services will increase.

The studies the government has made do not support your arguments. Their responsibility should be to enforce the laws we already have.

Your plans do not make sense.

Another Bear Islander fantasy
 

Surely someone with modest means or even vast personal wealth could afford 2 IPs. Even use a proxy. :rolleye1:

What is it that you say Webmaster knows as truth?

Bear Islander must have been a used car salesman at some time. Say whatever it takes to make a sale.

Logic Trumps All...
 

"We're from the Government, and we're here to help you" never rang truer than when "the Government" conducted their self-admitted flawed speed survey after illogically announcing that there would be a "Temporary Speed Limit" on Lake Winnipesaukee. :laugh:

Actually, I find BI's arguments to be fully based on inarguable logic—and Logic is a subject in which I have some training. :coolsm: