You know it is funny this year. While I am sitting on my front porch I usually wave at paddlers and bass boat fishermen as they are within a few feet of my wharf. They usually wave back. This year not one paddler waved back. What's with that? Didn't have any bass fisherman that close, so I can't comment on their reaction to my friendly wave. It's getting pretty ugly up here. Getting so I don't think I am going to wave anymore. Just saying, I am a friendly shorefront owner. Are there others out there that yell and scream at folks who come close to their dock? Is this why I am getting no reaction from folks? I don't like the way things are going. I's very depressing.

Our shoreline has great people on it and we consistently wave/chit chat when the opportunity is there. The occasional paddler or fisherman usually gives a wave.

I have noticed the boat to boat waves have decreased. I remember being a kid and waving to what seemed like every single boat we passed and getting a wave back.

As mentioned before, curtains might be a help especially given you value your privacy soo much, maybe a different house on top of a mountain would work. I think given the wrong circumstances you could be charged with an offense you might have to register with the local police for. I read about this happening somewhere. Just sayin. :cool:

I have many times snagged a lure on a rock/branch near the shore. I am a very cheap guy and have my favorite lures and have dived in to get the lures in the water.
When you were a kid and threw a ball into your neighbors yard by accident did you go get the ball? What's the difference?
When I fished a lot, I would always try to stay as far away as I could from peoples homes. but I'd cast where the fish were. At the begining of the season the bass where near the shore. I would always try the spots where there were little hosues as well.
As for the rafters, just as long as they don't block the enterance to the marina I'm ok with them. But at least a couple times a year they do.

GARYSANFRAN ---

Where EXACTLY do you live ??

I know all the rules, and I especially don't like to anchor my cruiser off someones beach or waterfront. That's why NRZ's tick me off so much.

But how do people feel about kayakers? I'm been doing a lot of kayaking recently. How would you as a land owner feel if I stopped in a waist deep sandy area near your land and cooled off for a few minutes. Reboarding a kayak in deep water is a chore, so a swim near shore is much easier.

I have my houseless spots, so I don't need to do this very often but how would you feel?

Open land in New Hampshire???
 

GARY,

Is you property "POSTED"? Does not New Hampshire consider all lands open to the Public if not "POSTED"? I am trying to reference the State's laws regarding HUNTING in NH. Does this apply in this situation? If you are worried about some one with a Fishing Pole how do you feel about a couple of "HUNTERS" with shot guns chasing down that Buck that just ran across your property?

Look in the little book the state puts out every season for hunting, they go into what the deal is in regards to hunting private property. In short if it is not posted (and properly posted) technically it's considered open for hunting provided it's safe to do so. That said, it's always courtious to ask the landowner's permission. Also using your example, if you happen to shoot a deer and it runs onto posted land, have to call the F&G at that point or get permission from the landowner before proceeding.

Waterfront Property
 

I don't know where folks who never had waterfront property before get the idea they 'own the water' in front of their property. I see too many of this happening lately. When I bought property, I assume I have little control of what happens on the water in front of me. Even though I had to pay a view tax.

As I boater, I respect others property. I don't go walking on their shorefront unless it is an emergency. I prefer not to raft in front of a cabin to respect their right to a beautiful view.

When fishing, I feel guilty if I snag a lure in front of a property. I think of a child stepping or tangling in the lure. I always make sure I retreive the lure. When I use to dive, I had to carry a knive in case I get tangled in line.

Enjoyers of the Lake
 

I totally love seeing people enjoy the lake! Swim in front of my camp... No problem. Maybe I will join you. ;) It paid off for a family a couple years ago when their boat wouldn't start. We towed them back to Ames Farm just as the weather turned bad. Kayak, fish or float - enjoy the lake as you wish. After all it belongs to all of us. If you are in my neck of the woods, you can count on me to be freindly and helpful, if needed. I always wave... whether you're looking my way or not. :laugh: See you at the lake! :D

Very well said. The Lake is for everyone. Just wave as you go by...

Thanks R Gal, someday I might make that paddle, but it's a long way from Smith Cove.

My favorite place for a dip is in front of Lincoln Park. A great spot, mix of rocks and sand, and alway great wake action. Since swimming at Lincoln Park is against the law (why?) I have to keep my feet wet.

No Swimming? Is this true? I see there is no life guard but nothing about no swimming.

My question is were you nearby when you saw this happen? If so why did you not go untangle the lure yourself and let the fisherman reel it in and that way he would not have had to dock the boat and go on your property to retrieve it.

Pride of Place?
 

Some “get” the jist of the original question, but most don’t. We all agree that safe boating laws certainly apply to all who enjoy the lake, and that these laws need to be enforced by the State. We also agree that the State manages natural resources for the enduring good and welfare of the people of New Hampshire by implementing regulations intended to preserve the ecological balance of the lake and its tributaries.
What seems to be a bone of contention is an apparent lack of written decree that defines acceptable “etiquette” pertaining to rights and privileges of waterfront owners who are taxed so heavily for their property. Landowners, almost without exception, accept their responsibility as stewards of the fragile lake environment. Winnipesaukee has +/-300 miles of shorefront. Hypothetically assuming shorefront is rationed into 100 ft wide lots, each landowner shares 1/15840th stewardship (worst case). This vested interest in the lake certainly should have more influence than the out-of-state boater who invests $15 to launch their boat. Unfortunately, the stereotypical daytimer is observed to exercise little or no respect for those of us who pay the price for our little bit of heaven. Consider the analogy of renting a car vs. using your own car. The rental is thrashed, abused, and soiled. The owned car is maintained and clean. There is no pride-of-ownership for the rental.

You have moved to the wrong state.

Although I do "get" your question, and as one of the out-of-state, waterfront property owners, JP's original answer is the correct one "we share the lake."

And I knew this before I bought the property and it seems fair to me. I am not sure what else there is to "get."

Benny, you seem to think you somehow bought my lake, or some portion of it.

You didn't, I and my fellow NH citizen own this lake and all other "great ponds", we let the state government hold it in trust for us, and manage it. My vested interest is equal to yours, just as my vote is equal to yours.

We can't have a law for everything, ettiquette and respect run both ways, we can share this great resource in friendship or we can call out the lawyers and ruin it for everyone. Plenty of history there.

Your statement that "Landowners, almost without exception, accept their responsibility as stewards of the fragile lake environment." is demonstrably false. Just look around the lake.

Well said jrc.
 

Well said jrc.

Benny...

You are a little out of touch here. Just because you own property that borders public domain property/resource does not give you a right or an expectation of privacy. In fact it guarantees the exact opposite. It guarantees the public access to any part of that property/resource.

We (the citizens of NH) are the true owners of all inland bodies of water, do grant you (waterfront property owners) certain littoral priveleges (not rights). We allow you a dock to extend into the lake (public domain) with limitations... same goes for moorings, swim rafts and swim lines. People need to remember that those priveleges can be severly restricted or revoked depending on the political whim of the public.

As for your dayboater comment... well last I checked there was very little public access to Lake Winnipesaukee. So little in fact that I would hazrd that dayboaters make up less than 5% of the boats being driven on the lake at any given time.

Woodsy

I agree Woodsy 100% about NH citizens owning the lake,

but why do people say public access to the lake with boats is limited:
at almost every marina on the lake you can get into the lake with a boat - irwins, thurstons, channel, lakeport, meredith, shep browns, to name a few
also at hotels such as christmas island. then you have all the town launches such as meredith, center harbor, meredith, alton, ellacoya

I can count in my head (i know amazing I can count without my fingers and toes) 5 in paugus bay alone, then over 10 around the lake, and I am sure I am missing some

Let's first offically define "etiquette": imply observance of the formal requirements governing behavior in polite society

Far as the lake goes, property owners have no more 'rights' or 'privledges' than anyone else when it comes to the lake itself. The amount of property tax levied is just that tax on property NOT on the lake. The fact a piece of property may include acutal shoreline is a unique feature that determines it's overall value. That's why if you look at any tax map for waterfront property the property boundary is the shore, not extending into the lake. Any features you wish to use that encroach into the lake is a matter of public interest, into a public body of water, and therefore regulated by the state in the best interest of the public.

To suggest that landowners are good stewards of the lake is comical, if that were the case then why have very strict guidelines for shorefront development? Answer, the 'stereotypical' landowners have taken it upon themselves to say hey I own my little piece and I'm going to do with it as I damn well please in many cases to the detriment of the lake itself. The worst offenders are the big money places, clear cutting, putting in lawn to the water's edge, polluting the water with ferilizer, throwing up these huge often times ugly places that take away from the natural beauty of the natural shore line. How obnoxious can you get to see some 20K SQFT mansion on a clear cut lot that is used only at best a couple weeks out of the year? I would also assert that most of the shorefront owners are also out of staters too because us natives can swing those places. So what's your point other than to present an entire premise that is argumentative?

Now as a native and resident of NH, should that give me any more access to the lake than anyone else? Of course not. The lake is not an exculsive club it's a resource for everyone to enjoy no matter where you are from or what means you happen to have. I have just reciently been one of the lucky ones to now own a little slice of heaven too, but that makes me no better than the day boater I used to be. I welcome all to enjoy the area and all it has to offer, and whether you be a day boater, land owner or just using a public beach. In the end it's God's creation that we all share, so treat it with the respect it deserves and good grief learn how to play well with others!

If landowners did such a great job of preserving the lakes for the rest of us to enjoy we really wouldn't need the DES would we? :rolleye2:

Edit: Great Post Maxum, you beat me to it with much more detail.

Benny
 

You sound like are on the wrong lake! You should move to Squam Lake where the Squam lake Association just about tell you when you can potty!

AC...


My comment about public access is pretty straightforward. Public ramps are by thier nature free for all to use. Most of the launch facilities on Lake Winnipesaukee are pay to play... your launching @ marinas or motels. There are only 2-3 PUBLIC launch ramps (owned & maintained by the State of NH for the enjoyment of residents & visitors alike) These ramps are disgraceful.. small poorly maintained facilities with little or no parking or docking. Most "public" launches such as Meredith & Gilford are for RESIDENTS only! or a fee applies. If they allow you to launch at all...

Woodsy

In fairness, as a shorefront property owner Benny does have some rights that a non-shorefront owner does not have; particularly the right to wharf out, or in other words build a dock. (Please note, this is not an unlimited right but that is another conversation for anoher time.) As for regulating ettiquette, no this is simply not possible. While we would all hope that people would respect each other, some people just don't have a clue. Anchoring a boat 40 ft off a family's dock so you can sit with your significant other and enjoy the sunset is one thing. Getting caught up in the moment and ending up half-naked and making out or worse despite the fact that the family has kids... on the dock... not ok. Needless to say the parent that called to complain was very angry. Unfortunately, making inconsiderate behavior illegal won't stop it from happening. The people who just don't care, still won't care...

As for shorefront property owners being stewards of the environment, I suspect reality lies somewhere between what Benny and Maxum put forward. There is a small percentage of people who are environmentally aware and very pro-active who are truly "stewards" of the environment. At the other end of the spectrum there is a smaller percent of people who are remarkably selfish that really don't care about the impact of their actions on others. In my experience the vast majority lie someplace in between. They don't buy waterfront thinking they about to become stewards of the environment. They simply want a special place they can enjoy with the people that are important to them. (...and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.) Because the place is special to them, if you explain that there is something that poses a risk to it and that further, there is something they can do to protect it or improve it, the overwhelming majority will do the environmentally responsible thing.

Well said.
 

You get it, and you express a strong opinion. Of course there are other perspective views. It's a good thing we live in America, where we can exchange opinions in public.
I still believe shoreowners care more about the lake environment than daytimers. There's a significant number of properties that aren't part of a funnel development, that don't live in McMansions, that don't fertilize grass to the water's edge, and are maintained by families that have been here for generations. These folks do a good job of it.

Too bad that jacka$$ lawyer from Mass. Who lives next to Ames farm couldn't chime in here...I'm bet he knows all the rules and laws..
To a previous post, last I knew it was a privilege not a right to put a dock in, with permits and rules that apply.. Kinda like a boater safety card, privilege not a right!!!

Waterfront property owners are the "littoral owner" of the waters adjacent to their property. I know most people believe this is not true and that every citizen has full rights to every square inch of the lake, but that is just not true. These riparian rights to the lake go back hundreds of years.

So you can keep telling yourselves that property owners do not have any more rights to the lake than anyone else, or you can actually do an internet search for "littoral owner" and then learn something new.

And just so nobody has their blood pressure get to high I will tell you that I have no right to prevent you from boating or swimming in the little piece of Lake Winnipisaukee that I am the littoral owner of.

While we shorefront landowners have littoral and riparian rights. Those rights give us clear right to use this water for some uses that the average citizen cannot. I can build a dock in front of my land, you can't.

But those rights don't extend to hindering navigation, either for fishing or just a temporary anchoring. Those rights don't prevent me from swimming in front of land. Of course common courtesy prevents me.

Little history on this subject...
 

... from Winnipesaukee.com in 2004. :eek:

Skip has some very good posts in the thread..

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...light=littoral

Those could have become VK blueberry pancakes!

Thank you for the reminder.


W. A. Sundell & a. vs. Town of New London
SUPREME COURT OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
119 N.H. 839, December 12, 1979
HEADNOTE
1. Waters--Public
Both at common law and by statute, title to waters of a great pond vest in the State for public use. RSA 271:20 (Supp. 1977).
2. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Although statute, vesting title of lake waters in the State for public use, provides that no individual shall have any rights not common to all citizens, littoral owners have common law property rights which are more extensive than those of the public generally, which could not be taken without compensation, and which were not affected by the statute. RSA 271:20 (Supp. 1977).
3. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Private rights of littoral owners include but are not limited to the right to use and occupy the waters adjacent to their shore for a variety of recreational purposes, the right to erect boat houses, and to wharf out into the water.
4. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Although waters of great ponds are public waters, littoral owners have private property rights which are separate from, independent of, and more extensive than the public's rights.
5. Waters--Public--Littoral Owners
Since owners of shore property around lake have private littoral rights separate from the public's rights, court did not err in declining to direct verdicts for the defendant town, where littoral owners brought a private nuisance claim against the town seeking damages for interference with their littoral rights, and not for interference with rights common to the public.

It says what everyone else did above- you can wharve out. That is if you can get DES to say OK

Look up:
Littoral
Ownership
Rights

You have stated you have ownership of the lake. False (see definition of littoral)

Rights (of which are regulated by state) does not mean ownership. Hence MP, DEP or any other myriad of organizations could take away and restrict (as they already do) the ability to install a dock, lift, mooring, swim line, swim raft, etc.

That case does not grant exclusive rights to much of anything.

And you no longer have the right to erect a boathouse, unless it's located over a dredged inlet within the property AND certain conditions are met.

You are engaging in selective reading.


Although waters of great ponds are public waters, littoral owners have private property rights which are separate from, independent of, and more extensive than the public's rights.


What you or I say, means little. What the Supreme Court says, means much.

You are now classifying people into two groups. I know many boaters that clean up after others and many homeowners that have no regard for the environment. There are many good points made in this thread and but this statement is weak.

And once again, those that write the laws confuse the Heck out of everything and everyone. Use common English that is easily understood. Good thing the Constitution is in good English. That I can understand. You don't have to have a PhD to know what is says.

Bear Islander, while there are littoral rights they are not germane to the original questions.

"Just how close can fishermen / rafters come to my dock?"

As cloase as they want, as long as they stay in the water.

"Is there any regulation that may impose restrictions pertaining to invasion of landowners' privacy?"

No, there is no right to privacy from people on public property found in any NH law or in common law littoral rights.