NH has several sales taxes.

fortunate to winter in Fla. they go on and on about no income taxes here. as is the case everywhere it takes nearly the same to run a town,city,state.... relatively speaking. last week buying several mattresses from a well-known retailer i noticed the sales tax was disproportional to final price. was told tax is set on retail price, not sale price...yay. today went to best buy to replace warranted phone screen protector. free replacement cost $.31cents sales tax...so free is not always free. in Fla anyway... a cautionary tale

Yes. I don't know what you would call the NH Business Profits Tax and Business Enterprise Tax if not income taxes.

This is where I cannot agree. Instituting Sales and Income taxes to reduce property taxes is a DEVOLUTION. Most states have gone this route and it has solved NOTHING. It just shifts the tax burden around, often onto those who can least afford it.

Consider this, in NH if I want to avoid high taxes, I simply do not buy an expensive piece of property.

If I inherit one, I sell it and pocket a couple million dollars. At 5% earnings (NOT taxed by NH unless dividends and interest and even that is being phased out) on the $2 million you can take an annual $100,000 vacation anywhere in the world for the rest of your life.

Try avoiding a sales tax. It's built into much of what is bought in many states.

If you are not retired, income tax unavoidably gobbles up a chunk of your pay. In some states, high wage earners are "progressively" taxed at a higher rate.

And what do you get for your "evolved" tax structure? Usually, out of control spending because once politicians have a money pot to access they think of MANY ways to expand spending for "evolved" causes. Check in with Vermont, California, New York, ... where they are taxed through the roof, INCLUDING heavy property taxes, and they are STILL GOING BROKE. Further, since most of these "evolved" taxes are instituted at the state level, they are out of the range of local control. If you think it's tough to control local spending, controlling state spending of sales and income taxes is impossible. The federal government, where we are $33 TRILLION in debt, is FAR worse.

As others have pointed out, NH has one of the lowest overall tax burdens and, for the most part, it is funded by people who CHOOSE to buy/keep expensive property and CAN afford it and businesses who are making a profit.

If paying taxes like Vermont is "evolved", I would rather remain a property tax paying, devolved, monkey and keep more of my hard earned money. Please don't step on my tail.

No state has ever reduced spending by instituting a new tax stream. The state would just spend more.

I agree. Name one state that has added an income or sales tax, etc. that has said they now have plenty of money. It doesn't happen.

I think Tax burden is relative, as in yes you will always pay taxes, and you maybe should choose where to live based on real estate taxes and income taxes and sales taxes alike. One situation works better or worse for one vs the other. Being in Laconia and Maynard MA, relatively small towns/cities in the country and reviewing the budgets, and agreeing that town budgets the majority is made up in Labor - with benefits and pensions and being a large sum of money. Towns refuse to go to a 401k style retirement and they continue on benefits when you can retire after a short period of time and collect whether it's $200 a month or $1000 a month scale depending of course, but your benefits continue. This would kill a private business today and is why it has changed. It is an outrageous amount of spending for a town, and the larger departments get these numbers continue to go as for example the 45/50 year old retires and still receives benefit for the rest of their lives 30+ years.

Now would agree perks of the job, and pay is a little lower than the private sector but that is not the case much anymore. For example look at the post office. very large labor force that still has a pension program and benefits long after retirement, every year they are taking a larger and larger loss but the government looks at everything else instead of their number one loss leader - Labor costs, so they will just continue to price themselves out of mail/package delivery service.

As far as pricing out those like in my case somewhat long time property owners. The higher the taxes go, the more get priced out of the market of affordability. The buyers at these rates, are usually buyers with multiple properties and leads to less use of all their properties, which majority leads to less spending in the community whether "rich" or middle class due to their costs. I would leave with one thought, Gov's Island, how many of those properties are occupied during most of the year even the summer, how much money other than taxes are being spent in the area off of those homeowners???

Personally, I'd much rather see empty homes than homes filled with disruptive renters.
My neighborhood is so quiet in the winter, snowbirds fly South, I love it!

No government or business is ever going to claim they have enough money, that isn't what changing the tax structure does. What you can do with a tax structure is change where buden lies.....

Examples

property tax -- Burden lies solely with the home owner

Rooms and Meals tax -- effects everyone residents / Homeowner pay meal tax along with tourists... Tourists pay for Rooms tax, as they don't have a place to stay...

Sales Tax -- effects everyone regardless of ownership and residency

The point people seem to continue to miss, is that I am not saying a Sales Tax is the answer, it is a way to shift burden.... And stabilize Property Tax... This doesn't mean that property tax and values still will not go up, and it doesn't mean that Sales Tax has to be outrageous.... it simple becomes a revenue stream that raises money and effects all people that enjoy the state equally....

When you look at something like a states total tax burden, which with out argument NH is low.... how is that being calculated? Is it based on # of declared residents?, is it based on Number of personal properties in the state? I mean just where does that number come from...

I'd like to think that a sales tax would decrease our property taxes but like others have said, more revenue would just increase spending.
So, I say no to a sales tax and income tax!

NO Sales Tax!
 

It comes from... "measured as total individual taxes paid divided by total personal income"...Pretty simple really.

Please tell me what state is doing it better than NH??....and PLEASE don't say Massachusetts!!...or Maine, or Vermont, or Connecticut...I could go on and on...

Enough talk about sales tax!! The people of NH have spoken about this many times and we do NOT want it here!

Dan

We have sales and income taxes...
Would you like me to list them?

They cover State costs and get transferred to each school district, municipality, and county.

NH chose instead of using a general taxation with exemptions, to use a directed taxes with no exemptions. It is more tax efficient; and the property tax because of the mechanism of determining what must be spent - then raising only that amount - is stable and unlikely to cause tax creep caused by new programs.

The business taxes and the I&D are both income taxes.

But Meals & Rental, fuel, tobacco, communications, sand/gravel, timber, MET, RETT... these are all sales taxes.

BPT was instituted long ago to tax profits rather than the old system that would add equipment and even livestock to the property tax. But this money would flow to the State, as no really local services were being provided by it. Now some of it is return as education adequacy grants... which is why we even formulated the EFA to use the same sourcing. A well-educated workforce being to the benefit of business productivity. The BET was enacted due to businesses using excessive accounting gimmicks to overcome the BPT. A business pays the greater of the two... and thus it is not really worth the effort to arrange business processes to avoid a profit. Many of those tax avoidance processes using up product time and assets that should go towards growing top line revenue and seeking efficiencies to deliver it to bottom line results.

The desire to lower the BPT is largely to be competitive with other States... looking at more than New England and thinking of the northeast quadrant as our focus. Doing so has served us well.


The I&D was originally enacted on all interest and dividends earned outside NH. The purpose was to get more internal investment in our own growth rather than fuel the development of areas outside NH. It was found unconstitutional to do so and became universal on all interest and dividends. Which is why disposing of it is the correct action.

I disagree a little bit. The BET was not because of "gimmicks" really. It was because owners took all their profits in income so professionals like attorneys and accountants who usually took all their profits in income would also have to pay a tax. A business/owner doesn't really pay the greater of the two, they pay BPT PLUS BET on the income they take. So they pay both.

Connecticut tried just this in 1991. The last state to do so. They instituted an income tax with the promise that property taxes would go down, and they did, for several years...and then went right back up.

Their sales tax is almost 7%. They have 7 income tax brackets.

Opening up entire new tax streams never stays static...they always expand over time. NH voters by & large get this.

I didn't know that both had to be paid.
I was under the impression that one offset the other.

But it was to avoid a ''gimmick'' when Merrill signed it into law.
It meant business formation was more often being based on avoiding the BPT.
Avoiding taxations takes time and resources.

It is like a STR not having all the regulations, restrictions, and costs imposed on a motel. The avoidance of building motels has resulted in residential property... specifically in high demand areas... to skyrocket in value; and thus the situation being discussed.

I remember that and always think of Conn. when people talk about adding a tax.

I guess this Tax Attorney has it wrong.
https://www.devinemillimet.com/uploa..._m1608974_.pdf

Under 2f, he has a BET credit taken against the BPT. Which means one or the other would actually be paid.

Frankly, I could care less about CT, sales taxes, or other schemes. If you ae concerned about your property taxes, there is one part of the equation that you can actually control and that is town/school EXPENSES!!! If more people got involved in the budget process and questioned needs, costs, increases, etc. then the outcome might be better. Longislander can fill in the blanks, but last year the M'boo Schools passed an increased budget at a town meeting that lasted under 10 minutes with few attendees. Question insurances and employee contribution rates, question added positions, question capital expenditures, etc. etc. All of these impact the tax rate but people just ignore the process. M'boro SAU recently dropped a $25M energy capital program out of the sky and wants voter approval in March. You could count the residents on you left hand that have attended any sessions about this. Stop bitching if you do not get involved, get informed, attend meetings and VOTE. Fix what you can and stop all the posturing about things you most likely cannot influence.

My situation's nearly exact what GarySanFran's is. I knew there'd be an increase but 72%? What a joke. Unclear what I'm getting for that. Maybe a decent fireworks display versus the fiasco this past July.

I don't care how the system works; in my mind it's flawed. I'll pay $23.6K annual for 1,500 SF seasonal. We'll make a bit of that up via reduced restaurant and other venue visits.

You are getting capital gains on your property.

Real Estate professionals say location! location! location!

Locations that have better police or fire service tend to be more highly valued. Reasonable road access increases value. And good schools increase value. But generally the lakes are creating the value.

But even nearby snowmobile trails can increase the value... that is why the Realtors promote those certain features.

All this talk about capital gains and increased equity is infuriating. We want to enjoy the home. Just as our grandparents and parents did. We want to keep the property, not sell it. Many think it’s a good problem to have. While find it stressful


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Then you need to remove all the values that caused the area to be seen as a tourist attraction.

I'm not going to study your link but I can tell you we paid both every year.

You would.
You would pay the BET and deduct it from the BPT.

The NH DRA has a 2022 BET Credit Worksheet.
It deducts from the BPT owed the amount paid in BET.

The math in essence means that you would pay just the full amount of BPT.

If your BET was $100,000 and your BPT was $110,000.
You would pay BET of $100,000 and BPT of $10,000 totaling the $110,000

The higher sum.

If you paid both (no credits) the total would be $210,000

If your BET is $110,000 and your BPT is $100,000 then you pay $110,000 (Full Credit for the BPT); and carry over your BET credit for future years (up to eight in total). You still would not pay $210,000 - just the $110,000 of the higher BET.

Ignorance of how government and taxation works is VERY dangerous. That is how a state ends up like Vermont, Massachusetts's, New York, California, ...

When people are unhappy, politicians will rush in to tell you there is a "easy" fix. They will add a general income or sales tax and lower the property tax. When the money starts flowing in, other "problems" will arise and some of the money will be diverted to "help". Then it becomes NECESSARY to raise all the new tax rates AND the property tax and business taxes. Soon you notice city and county taxes have appeared and weird taxes you have never heard of before. When the tax rate become painful, debt is allowed to build up. Businesses start leaving seeking lower tax rates. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER is spending significantly or permanently slashed.

THAT is how the system works. Voters are tempted by slick politicians and gobble up the tax slop like pigs at a troth, not knowing or caring to know that they are being raised for slaughter.

Any TAXPAYER in a city or town should have the right to vote on the budgets for that particular city or town. This would not allow voting for elected officials in local state or federal elections, but rather just give the taxpayer a say in how their dollars are spent in the town to which the taxes are paid. Current system is bogus and flawed, and somehow must be challenged and changed.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t...esentation.asp

Acronyms Changed...
 

NH DRA has changed all this for future payments:

The BET is now the DAT, and BPT is now the GON.

When your DAT is $110,000 and your GON is $100,000 then you pay $110,000 (Full Credit for the DAT); and carry over your DAT credit for future years (up to eight in total). You still would not pay $210,000 - just the $110,000 of the higher DAT. So now for 2023, the $110,000 is GON.

I'll bet you didn't know of DAT.

;)

As a stockholder in most large corporations... and many more small ones... I am a taxpayer in thousands of towns/cities, counties, and even countries.
Do I get a vote in all of them?

As pointed out. The residents of the town that voted on the budget did not add additional costs that they did not need to add in accordance with local inflation... what occurred was the market value of some properties rose higher than others. That was not caused by the residents of the town... that was caused by the desire of non-residents.

The ''problem'', if such exists, is with non-residents.
Areas that have very little ''demand'' from non-resident generally see budgetary increases due to inflation, but do not see property valuations tilt.
Any homeowner can live here, and declare their residency here... so why aren't they doing it? The system is not stopping it... it is a choice of the property owner... so the system is not flawed; it provides a choice.

Spending
 

We have a spending problem. The size of government on all levels has escalated at a geometric rate the last 50 years. Local government is not immune. Since I moved to Laconia 46 years ago, the size of Laconia has stayed the same (around 16,000 people). Schools, city departments, and social services are 3-4 greater than when I was a kid. Enrollment in schools across the Lakes Region is decreasing, yet budgets and personnel continue to increase. And mind you, these are competitive paying jobs with the private sector, with pensions! The dreaded private sector eliminated pensions 30+ years ago because the math doesn't work. City/state employees not only get paid well, they get pensions to boot!

The things that attracted people from states like Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut and New York to our great state was the lifestyle afforded by a minimalistic government that is funded without income and sales tax. However, these people are used to bloated governments, e.g., mandated and paid for pre-K and kindergarten, which was a great topic of conversation some time ago. In NH, state and local governments are supposed to be lean and mean. If you want services, live somewhere else. Don't change what made us attractive to you in the first place.

However, at the end of the day, as the demographics of the state change (let's face it we are blue, not purple), we will eventually vote in people who will comply with the popular beliefs that if only we had a sales tax and/or an income tax, all of our problems will be solved. We won't have the homelessness and addiction problems, we won't have any problems. Unfortunately, it is not a question of if, it is a question of when.

A system that results in a 72% RE tax increase overnight and potentially results in longtime residents having no choice but to sell a lakefront home that's been in their family for 50 or more years is flawed.

It lacks humanity.

Switching from defined benefit to defined contribution was looked at.
Because the new employees would need to have accounts that are contributed to, those contributions and return on investment could not be used to offset the current system. The State, Counties, and cities/towns would all see major increases in their contributions... they are not allowed to declare bankruptcy and transfer the cost to PBGC.

The State of NH has only been controlled by Democrats for two years of the last one hundred. That largely happened because the Republicans that took an oath the State Constitution decided to ignore that oath when it did not suffice them.
The system is not inherently Democrat-controlled or problematic when reviewed in a relative manner.

We did have a problem with the Evergreen Clause placed into the system under Thompson, but that has been at least partially resolved.

Municipal power flows from the Legislature and is limited by the Legislature.
The tax rate for Laconia is historically low - in 1978 it was 23.40; it is currently 13.91

Many non-residents are seeing still seeing us as attractive. Unfortunately, because those are not families and working age non-residents, they are making the problems worse.

As I pointed out... anyone educated in NH that is paying attention realizes that we have State income and Sales taxes. An out-of-Stater moving here may fall for the ''No general sales or income tax'' quip, but it is a gimmick; psychological marketing tactics telling us that ''general'' would be overlooked. We just use a more inherently efficient manner of those taxes. We move those rates up and down in an attempt to balance state expenditures against competition from surrounding State and now more often the northeast quad (we can never meet the east-west corporate model that has been developing in the last two decades).

You will see this all play out again... and my guess is history repeat itself since politicians never learn (basically the general public doesn't do that well either) should the NHSC uphold the Superior Court findings.

But for Meredith, the focus of the thread, it is simply the push of non-residents to own lakefront. Those properties go up in value, and the other properties see the benefit of lower/stable taxation.

I was actually stunned when the younger next door neighbors moved here from San Fransisco to ''farm''. They have six acres - enough in our town to legally have domesticated livestock. The house is a bit oversized for them, but the cost of ripping it down is more than just maintaining and upgrading the energy efficiency. They could easily afford to live on the lake, but chose a more traditional NH path.

I agree with you, it' a spending problem, people moved her because they liked the way it was but now everybody wants more and more government. I would be very happy to have less services and live mean and lean government wise. And spending more money on education hasn't helped.

News flash, nothing is the way it was. Change happens regardless of whether you want it to or not.
You either embrace it and adjust or move out of the way and complain about it.

It's such fun to complain about it.

Mostly a local issue. It would suggest that Interlakes voters are more free with the purse than Belmont. The numbers do show that a bit. Belmont spent $18,442 per student to rank 41 out of 85, while Interlakes spent $26,510 per student to rank 43 out of 85 (at the high school level).

You did out rank us the year before coming in at 17 out of 85, compared to 28 out of 85.

It may be possible that it cost more for teachers and staff at Interlakes.
But that data should be available somewhere publicly.

I'm unaware of any dramatic new services that Meredith has added since I was born in the 60s.

A 72% increase would have me appealing my assessment PDQ! That’s insane!

But, it very rarely makes a difference.

No but not much makes a difference. The only way to make a difference is to get lots of people to go to town meetings and vote against things that are wants but not needs.

Some of the increases in assessments seemed excess, so not bad advice.
But one should temper their reaction to any outcome.

Some towns overall valuations jumped pretty high... and certain categories went ballistic.

Meredith increased by 63% from 2020 (the last assessment).
The highest category was boat slips. Boat slips in general were up 71.73% with Bayshore being up 96.71%

Waterfront was up 70.05% in general, with Lake Wicwas at 82.99%, Lake Waukewan at 79.09%, Lake Winnisquam up 74.09%, Lake Winnipesuakee up 70.39%... and the only ones seeing less than the general increase being the Island category - up only 59.95%; meaning taxation got shifted away from them.

Non-waterfront Single Family did OK coming in at 55.46%, Multi-family at 38.59%, and Commercial/Industrial at 33.05%.

Vacant land took the biggest hit after waterfront at 86.20%, and even Manufactured Homes in a Park saw a slight increase at 64.31% compared to the 63% general valuation increase.