B.I.

I fully agree that my comparison is unfair, but that is part of my point...

I have been reading this thread with great interest, and while I certainly agree you have a right to your opinion, I feel you are grasping at straws to make your speed limit point. The death of loons by wake and saying higher horsepower motors cause more environmental impact, just discredits your position immensely.

One of your points in your previous post state that lower horsepower has less environmental impact. If environmental impact is one of the reasons, you are going after a speed limit on the lake, why not go after the 70 year old man fishing in his 12 foot Jon boat with his vintage 10 HP Johnson, Evinrude, or Mercury blowing smoke, oil, and other pollutants all over lake?? Is it because he can't speed, so polluting the lake is O.K.?? Am I missing something here??

The fact is a large percentage of the motors on the lake are small older two strokes that cause 15 times the pollution of newer engines, and
I am sure you are aware that many vacation camps and local fisherman have one of these tied up to their dock.

Just so you understand my position, I am completely against a speed limit on the lake. In my opinion, all that is needed is enforcment of the current laws and in particular the 150' rule. Believe it or not it really is that simple...

Regards;

Dan

You folks have found a new low in logic!

Over and over we hear that if you are not familiar with the lake and boating your opinion about speed or horsepower limits (like in a poll) doesn't matter. Now you can't advocate horsepower limits if you have a power boat, because that must be hypocritical.

So who can have an opinion on horsepower limits? It has to be someone that has boating experience on Winnipesaukee but has recently gotten rid of their boat because of environmental concerns. Out of the billions on this planet only what... 4 or 5 can have an opinion about horsepower limits.:laugh:


I believe BI also supports a ban on two stroke engines.

Guess again
 

Stop guessing. The Marine Patrol controls people more than any speed limit could. Enforcement keeps people under control.

Again with the Rose colored glasses.

You are missing the point entirely. I'm sorry if I believe it to be completely disingenuous at best for someone to tell others what to do when they are themselves an offender. If you don't believe that to be the case here then I am sorry. Change begins with oneself and if Bear Islander wants the rest of the users of the lake to stop polluting, killing loons, and have a lower horsepower boat then he should begin by insuring he fits within those parameters himself. Otherwise it comes off as a hollow, politician like stance. Again, "Do as I say not as I do."

I do "fit within those parameters myself". Any suggestion to the contrary is unfair and only made because attack and ridicule is your method.

Please tell us who IS entitled to advocate a horsepower limit?

HP limits aside.... you are definitely entitled to your opinion!

However, you are more than bit hypocritical when you start bringing up environmental issues.... especially considering all that you have accomplished!

How is it you can justify burning TONS of hydrocarbon laden jet fuel to fly you and your family out west, to burn TONS more jet fuel to get the rocket to launch altitude, then burn more fuel so you can spend a few minutes weightless?

I suppose I could harp on the TONS of jet fuel that was required to get your butt to staging point for your trip the North Pole, or the HUNDREDS OF TONS of jet fuel required to get your butt to staging point for your trip to the South Pole....

Don't get me wrong, I think its GREAT that you are successful enough to afford making your dreams a reality... However, you can't go pointing fingers at other peoples choices of recreation when your choices pollute far more....

Woodsy

What little I have garnered from reading your posts I am aware that you have a runabout and an aluminum dinghy. You're the one who singled out Performance boats as the "Loon Killers." I maintain that your runabout, and mine, are just as capable of killing loons with our wakes. So you might want to drop that argument.
Unless your aluminum boat has oars or an engine made within the last 2 years you may also want to drop the pollution argument because you're polluting more than several boats combined.
Your horsepower limit equated to saving loons and solving pollution comes off as laughable when you are a contributor. Consider it an attack if you will. I am merely asking you to look in the mirror before you post ramblings that cast a negative shadow over "everyone else" but yourself.

Not including loon nests...
 

No, that would be me.

Google "surfacing loon", and I'll give you the benefit of my having witnessed a surfacing loon—who promptly retreated to the depths, splashing me—while in my sailboat!

Horsepower on one boat doesn't count? :rolleye2:

Some more opinions, the first one even qualifies its statement with the word "may" as in it may be a problem. Hardly scientific fact........

Big wakes, especially when the lake is high in the spring can destroy loon nests or wash out the eggs. The bigger cruisers can cause huge wakes. They are not "just as capable" they are "far more capable", and far more likely. Perhaps you don't get a lot of wake where you are, but I get plenty. The wake from our boats is not much more than I get on a windy day. The big cruisers wake is a lot more than the Mount, other tourist boats or the Bear.

A few years ago I traded in my PWC for an aluminum boat with oars and a small four stoke. I miss my GTX. I use the small boat for most daily runs. However I believe that living on an island a larger boat is needed at times.

YOU are the one that said my aluminum boat is not safe in all water temperatures and weather conditions! I agree to the point that I think I need a larger boat for safety at times. I don't know what kind of boat I will buy to replace my bowrider when that time comes. But pollution, horsepower and wake will be a large part of my decision.

The "look in the mirror" type of argument can be made about anybody that owns a power boat.

If they don't own a power boat then the obviously have no idea what they are talking about. Did you ever see "Catch 22".

Cool boat, which part of the lake is it docked?:rolleye1:

The right to advocate comes for the same place as our right to argue with you.

Sorry, that's not what I am asking.

In your opinion who is entitled to advocate for a horsepower limit? Because it seems I don't make the cut.

Bear Islander all of my latest comments are stemming from this post. If you post something like this you need to back it up. Two statements stick out as particularly offensive and border on ridiculous:

The few that own these expensive, highly polluting, global warming, gas hogs, fly around the lake at speeds up to 130 mph...

If this is your concern you are going backwards by legislating newer cleaner burning boats off the lake. Oh and by the way give me a break with the flying around at 130mph.

They are coming to Winnipesaukee because the are being regulated off other lakes. As this trend continues their numbers will grow. Their wakes kill loons, and erode the shore.

This was YOUR quote directed at Performance boats, now you are switching gears to this because you dug yourself another hole:

Big wakes, especially when the lake is high in the spring can destroy loon nests or wash out the eggs. The bigger cruisers can cause huge wakes. They are not "just as capable" they are "far more capable", and far more likely. Perhaps you don't get a lot of wake where you are, but I get plenty. The wake from our boats is not much more than I get on a windy day. The big cruisers wake is a lot more than the Mount, other tourist boats or the Bear.

Am I the only one seeing this????? :confused::confused::confused:

I feel like I'm talking to a politician.:rolleye2:

If you stop analyzing and comparing everything I say with a microscope you will not have these problems. You are comparing every post in hopes of catching me in a lie. You will NEVER catch me in a lie because I am giving you my honest opinions.

There are no inconsistencies in the posts you quote, you are looking for what is not there, and jumping on nothing at all.

I have NO IDEA what your point is about those three examples in bold type. Every word is absolute truth!

Live and let Live
 

Geesh BI...if laws and regulation where made on peoples likes a dislikes we would have regulations on EVERYTHING. Voice your opinion but please do not justify why your opinions should be laws. If people like yourself are SCARED TO HELL by other boats you should ask your self why??? Is it just the sheer speed of them passing by?? Or are they too close?? Are you intimidated by the size??? Why then don't we stop all the big trucks on the highway bc they scare the crap out of my little old grandmom?! :rolleye1: Most of the boat owners that have the boats that are going faster then you know how to drive them in a safe manner, and they have been driving around the lake for years w/ little to no issues. Being scared or intimidated by someone else is no reason to make laws to restrict them...maybe you need to be more confident in you abilities to drive a boat in company. :D
LIVE FREE OR DIE....

Why not?


.

We need you to come back to reality....thats why. :laugh:

I'm asking why I should voice my opinions but not justify them?

If I believe a law will make the lake safer and cleaner, why should I not say so?

Should I only voice opinions the majority agree with?

BIg trucks on the highways require a commercial drivers license and all violations stay on your record for fifteen years. For trucks, the posted speed limit is the speed limit. No fudge factor above what's posted is allowed by the police. Most highway lanes are 12' wide, and tractor trailers have a trailer that is 8 1/2' wide, and lane control is a big deal. Truckers can get ticketed for being out of their lane for lousy lane control.

Unlike Lake Winnipesaukee, NH's road system has lanes with painted lines, and speed limits. Doesn't Lake Winnipesaukee need a 45-25 speed limit on the proposed HB 847, two year temporary trial basis from Jan 1, 2009 to Jan 1, 2011. After two years, the Marine Patrol will have lots of speed limit enforcement experience for the legislature to consider. HB 847 is not carved into granite, it's a two year look-see, and then gets reconsidered. Why not give it a try? Let's try it...after all....you just might like it.:)

Hey, by January 1, 2011, the republicans could be back in the majority at the statehouse, and what will they do?

WOW! I've seen it all now. So we are supposed to just accept that all of your opinions are fact? HA. Someone has a Megalomaniac complex.

Bear Islander, if you go and post your thoughts on an open forum you are opening yourself up to analysis and criticism. ESPECIALLY in a highly debated topic forum. Also, it is not inconsistencies that I am looking for. You posted opinions that you claim are facts. Your opinions are most certainly not factual. I won't use the word lie but you have stretched the truth beyond reason. So if you need me to further explain why I bold typed those latest whoppers I will.

The few that own these expensive, highly polluting, global warming, gas hogs, fly around the lake at speeds up to 130 mph...

S T R E T C H. Prove it. Where are the 130mph TERRORIZING family boaters. Prove it. Which boats on the lake are REALLY causing the most pollution and causing "Global Warming."

Then you yourself originally blamed High Performance boats for killing baby loons in this statement:

They [Performance Boats] are coming to Winnipesaukee because the are being regulated off other lakes. As this trend continues their numbers will grow. Their wakes kill loons, and erode the shore.

However when pushed and questioned you changed your statement to this:

Big wakes, especially when the lake is high in the spring can destroy loon nests or wash out the eggs. The bigger cruisers can cause huge wakes. They are not "just as capable" they are "far more capable", and far more likely.

So which is Bear Islander? Who is killing the baby loons?

Why do I even raise the issue? It goes right back to the word of the day. Credibility. Opinions are one thing but you sling around these "facts" and expect everyone to believe them. I ain't buyin' it sorry.

Little known fact: Go back and search the old forum. I once raised the issue of having a Speed Limit. Yup, surprise, surprise, I was once an undecided, leaning towards a limit. Over the years I would read these forums and I became convinced otherwise due to the CREDIBLE posts by the opposition. I was also driven to this viewpoint by rants from the proponents, who I felt were disingenuous in their motives. You make some of the strongest cases every day as to why I do NOT support a speed limit. In other words I feel that you hurt the position rather than help it. Just my opinion though.

Thanks, now at least I know what you are getting at.

ALL high horsepower boats create big wakes, GFBL and cabin cruisers. They BOTH kill loons and pollute the lake. They belong on the ocean, not Lake Winnipesaukee.

See, there wasn't any discrepancy. Just you looking for one.

I don't care what you advocate, you have freedom of speech and Don has graciously allowed all of us to use this forum as a sounding board.

You can expect that if you advocate for something hypocritical to your lifestyle, stuff like saving fuel and preventing poluution, that others will use that fact to discredit the cause you advocate for.

I just thought I'd share the origins of the photograph APS is pushing on us now as something seen rounding Bear Island trolling for loons!!! :laugh:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/boats/drugrunner.asp

Look at the size of this 70 mph wake:eek:. I haven't seen anything that big since "The Perfect Storm":rolleye2:

Here is a monster wake coming off a 30' twin engine 600hp gas guzzling shoreline eroding loon killing (8500lb dry weight) bowrider at 58mph. I can really see the concern this wake would cause... :rolleye1

298SS, right? Nice riding, great looking, nicely priced, and often overlooked boat. A friend of mine that's been in the industry for 45 years told me that it has the finest riding hull of any 30 footer he's ever been aboard. He's on his second Monterrey, a 330.

You got it! Great boat. I love the 330SY, just more boat than I need. If I did not have a house on the water that would be my choice.

For comparison, here is what 18mph looks like in a 22' bowrider with 260hp and no ballast. This one is a Rinker 226 R1. Which one looks like the loon killer? Cal, got any extra BBQ sauce? :D

If you have ever seen the waves that mother nature whips up several times a year and believe that boat wakes kill loons it is hard to imagine that any of them could possibly survive.

If we could just figure out how to disguise boat wakes to look like little natural waves.

NASCAR and Snopes
 

Loons select nest sites that are free of Mother Nature's biggest waves; unfortunately, mankind creates its own tsunamis for these birds.

Snopes says I'm not "pushing" anything. It's a drug-running boat—just more stealthy than the usual replica drug-boat of the average Winnipesaukee cowboy.

NorTech, capable of 130-MPH on Winnipesaukee, is a tunnel hull design: it has "high horsepower".

It is similar to the tunnel hull boat that passed me at about 110-MPH (too close to my dock) and a Hobie (too close to the Hobie, which had five young girls on it). :eek:

It was remarkable to see the water left with no wake at all! Tunnel hulls ride on a cushion of air, unlike most other designs.

http://boatdesign.net/assets/images/...nnel-boats.jpg

1) Loon nestlings are not necessarily the victims of excess speed on the lake.

Like the endangered manatee elsewhere or the not-so-endangered diver at Winnipesaukee, Loons are exposed to excessive speedsters when surfacing for air.

2) How can a polluter with 2000 horsepower can be compared to one with 20 horsepower? :confused: The volume of fresh air converted to smoke is far greater with big engines. (For anyone nearby or downwind—particularly on a calm day—or near one idling at a dock or restaurant).

3) If any horsepower-restriction approach is worthwhile for Winnipesaukee, a NASCAR solution would be more efficient: restrict the air-intake diameter.

However, a speed limit is easier to monitor (by cellphone-equipped boater-victims) and enforce (by officers), particularly at night.

not looking to join the fray, but...
 

Just one point, not pro or con speed limits, but to clarify the impact of big wakes. Natural waves can be bigger than most wakes, but they occur in the same areas of the lake for the most part. It takes a long reach for the wind to wip up the big waves, as Rattlesnake Island dwellers (north side) well know. The problem is when the unnatural waves are generated in areas that loons choose to nest in which are protected inlets that don't get these natural waves because the wind doesn't have the long stretch of water to whip them up.

In this case the majority does agree with you..............slower is safer!

Thar being the case a law that enforces that only makes sense.

Really?
 

Are you so sure?

Here is an article from 2006 done by an independent source.

Readers In Poll Say ‘No’ to Winnipesaukee Speed Limits
Manchester — October 1, 2006 — Keep Lake Winnipesaukee free of speed limits for boaters, urged a majority of people responding to a New Hampshire Union Leader Web survey.

“The real issue on Winnipesaukee (or any other body) is that some boaters still choose to operate under the influence of stupidity,” wrote speed-limit opponent Kevin Drew of Milford. “Unfortunately, there is no law against that.”

By nearly a 2-to-1 margin, respondents gave a thumb’s down to a push to convince the state Department of Safety to set a 45 mph speed limit on the state’s largest lake during the day and a 25 mph limit at night. The Legislature already defeated a similar proposal this year. The same petition process was used to set speed limits on Squam Lake about 10 years ago.

Boats passing within 150 feet of each other are required to slow to headway speed, six miles per hour, but often don’t.

Read it here
http://ossipeelake.org/news/2006/10/...-speed-limits/

1. Boaters in the state of NH are required to have certificates. Similar to specialized licensing.
2. It has been talked about that any speeding ticket you get on the lake would go onto your driving record.
3. The state of NH has a 150' rule.
4. Boaters can be ticketed for violating the 150' rule.

I'm not sure an on-line internet survey by a newspaper is an "independent source". It's more like who got the word out to his friends telling them to go post against speed limits.

On www.offshoreonly.com a request was posted with a link asking everyone to go post on the Union Leader survey.

As well they should
 

[QUOTE=Cal;66635]Since kayakers seem to want free run of the lake , I've run across a power boat suitable for kayak territory. After all , isn't turnabout fair play:D
Not only that , maybe a speed limit won't extend up creeks:laugh::laugh:

Kayakers should be able to paddle the lake where ever and when ever they want to. It is up to those of us who have motor boats to respect their space and make it safe, no matter what speed. I am sure Kayakers enjoy a few waves that the boats make as long as wakes aren't spray from boats passing to close. Basic consideration is the issue here, not speed.

Who cares? If it is true, the people who voted posted their feelings and voted the way that they felt was right. Why would this be any different that polling people from Manchester that may not even know the lake?

Votes are votes.

Is it your point that WinnFABS was not able to do this successfully and thus, you spin the results?!?!?! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

So Votes are Votes. The fact that a high performance boating site sent its members there to post doesn't make a difference?

I think we should do a "Do the Yankees Suck?" survey at Fenway Park. That way we can settle the question at last. After all "votes are votes"!