Entirely agree with you on that point! Pave the railbed itself and skip the eyesore fencing.

Not too familiar with it but doesn't Wolfboro have a 12 mile bicycle path, starting at Back Bay, which travels over an abandoned rail road right-of-way to Sanbornville. It has had all the tracks removed? Believe that it is not paved with asphalt but with some type of fine black gravel.

It works good?

Proposed WOW trail costs skyrocketing...
 

Interesting article in today's on-line Citizen detailing the skyrocketing cost of a fence along the proposed WOW trail in Belmont. Entire article can be read HERE!

Instead of a chain link fence why not the equivalent of a "virtual dotted line on the ground", constructed very simply with grey granite rectangular cobblestones. People do not need a chain link fence to know where the public trail property line is located. A cobblestone line on the gound would be an attractive solution.

Bicycle paths in the Netherlands which run between roads and canals frequently have a hedgerow or just a strip of grass and do not have an ugly chain link fence.

I'll even be happy to go to nearby Gilbert Block Company in Belmont and donate one grey granite cobblestone which costs about $3.50. So, at nine miles x 3.50 = a whole lot of cobblestones. Any other volunteer cobble donations out there?

If each block is 1 foot long:
5,280 feet / mile X 9 miles = 47,520 blocks

47,520 blocks X $3.50 per block = $166,320 (plus labor! :eek: )

How does a cobblestone keep a child off the railroad tracks?

This is from todays New York Times
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...55C0A967958260

Trains hit pedestrians or vehicles more than 4,000 times each year. About 500 people are killed while walking on tracks each year. I think this is why the fence is being required.

Be serious.....Amtrack trains travel at 70mph plus and our little scenic railroad crawls along at 2 or 3 mph.I've ridden it and you can WALK faster than the train is traveling.To compare a NY commuter train to our scienic railway is beyond ridiculous. I was in favor of the WOW project (and even donated) until I learned of the big ugly chain link fence that would scar miles of shoreline and ruin not only esthetics,but access for hundreds of property owners......please note that BearIslander lives on an island and is not effected.

The New Hampshire legislature just passed a bicycle safety law, effective January 1, which amoung other items, creates a 'three foot safety space rule' in that motor vehicles shall not come closer than three feet to a bicycle as both car and bike share the same road.

Why not extend the thinking for bicycling on New Hampshire roads to the WOW trail, and simply require the distance between the WOW bicycle path and railroad tracks to be a minimum determined distance. It could be greater than three feet, such as five or eight or ten feet.

If a three feet safety space is an ok compromise for cars and bicycles, then lets apply the same thinking to this "ugly fence' problem and simply build it without a fence excepting areas where a fence is recommended.

Possibly, a granite cobblestone "fence' would be viewed as an attractive border and abutters could view it as an enhancement and not an ugly fence.

As the Old Man of the Mountain used to say: "granite is naturally good looking," plus a cobblestone is all of just 6 inches high so it will not mess with the view.

.

Where is it that Amtrak trains going more than 70 MPH pass within inches of a pedestrian and bike path? I was unaware that was happening.

Please explain what difference it make where I live? Is this thread only for WOW abutters?

Even a slow train can't stop on a dime, or in time to prevent hitting a pedestrian. Nor can you expect children to stay off railroad tracks just inches away from were they are walking unless you have a fence.

And a fence with openings every couple of hundred feet to allow for access is not much better than no fence at all.

I really don't see how this project can be both safe and allow access at the same time.

I've been on the train and I've been in Southdown. The train currently coexists with pedestrians quite well. There is no fence along the route now and many people cross the tracks safely.

In Skip's link it looks like the NH DOT requires the fence, maybe they can be reasoned with.

I just can't imagine a ugly chain link fence from the railroad bridge near the Irwins all along the side of Paugus Bay to the Weirs and then along Meredith Bay.

Near my weekday residence in Hollis, we can walk, bike, etc along an abandoned railway to Ayer. It is a nice trail to have. It did and does have opposition from literal NIMBY's. The good seems to override the bad. But in a few places fences were built to keep snowmobiles and ATV off the trails. These fences also cut longstanding access across the trail. These fences are now often in need of repair.

Personally, I think the trail is a great idea, however not with an ugly fence. While I understand the state's perspective in requiring a fence, it seems that whatever entity came up with that requirement is not too familiar with much of the geography of the line.

The sheer number of grade crossings for roads, driveways, paths, as well as narrow causeways would make so many gaps in the fence it would be pointless anyway...an argument further strengthened by the leisurely pace of the existing rail traffic.

For some numbers about existing rail-with-trails endeavors, check the following link: http://www.americantrails.org/resour...railStudy.html

Based on the URL, I would assume that there is some bias in the study, but it's interesting nonetheless.

? For Bear Islander
 

B. I.....I'm amazed and confused......looking back over your previous posts,you seem to be a guy who loves nature and cares about the enviroment.You have posted about,wildlife,clean water,alternative energy......but you approve of a nine mile chain link fence in front of our precious waterfront. You recently put up a web cam for your little Daisy the duck who was on her nest and we all stood by with baited breath. I put it up on my computer at the office so I wouldn't miss the big moment.My question is this................If you had a 5' fence in front of your property on Bear island,how would little Daisy have reached the water with her little babies?

You misunderstand me. I am not in favor of the WOW trail.

It sounds like a great idea at first. However when you get into the details it stops making sense. The way I understand it the only way they will have enough room for the trail is to put it right next to the rails. Even with a slow moving train eventually someone will fall, or zig when they should zag, and there will be a horrible accident.

I can imagine this trail being VERY popular, much more so than similar trails that don't go along a beautiful lake. That means lots of people just inches from a vehicle that can't stop. Not a good idea in my opinion. The only answer is a fence between the tracks and the trail.

However a fence will be seriously ugly. And even if you could find a beautiful fence or an invisible fence.... What good is a fence that has a break every few feet?

In my opinion they are trying to do two mutually exclusive things at the same time. Isolate the trail from the tracks for safety reasons, AND provide hundreds of crossings to allow access. I just don't see how it can be done.

Sorry,B.I.......guess I did have you wrong.I thought you approved of the fence....but I do disagree with you about any danger from a slow moving train.If only the DOT would waive the fence requirement everyone would be happy.

Skip the fence
 

Why are we again trying to legislate personal responsibility? Create the template and paint a warning in reflective paint every 500 feet "DANGER - STAY CLEAR OF ACTIVE TRAIN TRACK" and call it good.

If folks want to get on the tracks, a fence won't stop them. And why incur the maintenance costs and headache of trying to keep the fence intact. Compliment the painted warning notices with a sign at the various entrances to the trail alerting them to the danger of the active track and problem solved.

I listen to these things and thank God we went to the moon in the 60's... Our perpetual hand-wringing today would never allow us to sign off on the idea of strapping three guys into a glorified trash can affixed to the five stories of high explosives needed to hurl them into the void of space. A fence to keep people off the tracks... If you need a fence to impose common sense, perhaps you should be on the tracks when the train comes. :rolleye1:

When does the lunacy end?? This is PRECISELY what is wrong with this country today! We have to account for every possible idiot! No personal responsibility allowed! We need to stop dumbing down to the lowest common denominator! I need to stop now before I go on a huge rant!

Should we build the trail YES! Do we need a fence? NO!

The rail traffic on this line is seasonal and very light/very slow moving. It's not like we are discussing mile long freight trains every few hours. People have coexisted with the railroad (no fence) for long, long time, and to the best of my knowledge there have been ZIP, ZERO, NADA injuries! I see people walking right down the middle of the tracks all the time. So why the big deal now? If anything, a nice trail beside the tracks would be much safer!

You need to look at how railroad tracks are constructed. Railroads operate best when the tracks are level. When a railroad is constructed, they use large quantities of gravel to raise the level of the tracks 2' to 3' above the surrounding terrain, depending on terrain conditions. This accomplishes two things, level track height so the train will roll easily and proper drainage. For most of the proposed WOW trail, the railbed will be somewhat higher (approximately 2') than the WOW trail. You would physically have to fall up to the tracks to get struck by the train.

Woodsy

3' distance
 

I think, and because of that I am not in the political arena, that on many roads in NH that giving three feet to a bicycle is outrageous. Giving that a lot of roads are not one way, and sometimes do not seem wide enough for two cars going in oposite directions. Lets see how this works, keep right, but remember the Motorcycles claim between the two yellow marks on the road for there road, now if the bycyles have three feet on each side of the road what does that leave, oh yeah and them kids sometimes ride two abreast.

Mixed usage
 

Where's that "Thanks" button when you need it .....

I see a higher likelyhood of injury from mixing bicycles, skaters and pedestrians.

Er...Woodsy...that's exactly what Bear Islander said.

Good-bye train
 

Personally, I would much rather have the trail than have the train. I do not want the fence either. It will be ugly and it will negatively impact too many good people.

We have lived without the train since the Weirs washout. I do not know of anyone that is inconvienced at all because the train is gone.

I would much rather see many people using a free trail instead of some people using a train that they have to pay a good amount of money to ride. In addition, the train makes a lot of noise with its loud whistle/horn, so those that do not like that noise will be better off without the train.

This is a case of the good of many being served with the trail vs. the good of a few being served with the train. When you add in the ugly fence required to build the trail close to the train, the case for the train being eliminated gets much stronger.

R2B

Well the people that run the train have been inconvienced. They leased the tracks from the state and have a right to expect the state to live up to that lease. They invested time and money into their business with a good faith expectation of having their lease honored.

I don't think the trail should be built if a fence is required. I think the train and the trail can coexist without a fence. But the state could always take their business by eminent domain and use the rail bed for the trail.

I think the state may still have dreams of restoring passenger rail service to NH, having real trains on that line would change my opinion on coexistence.

There are a # of logistal and enginnering issues that would have to be solved before this path can be utilized. Southdown is one issue, a 5' fence thats ridicolous; safety issues too and what of "shoreline protection act", a paved road next to the lake within 10-20' feet at points. This makes it more unpleasant looking. As another post put it what about;

Maiden Lady Cove?
Pickeral Cove & Moulton's Cove?

The land to be "used" on the above resides on a "narrow" causeway. Current standards for railroad tracks in the USA are 4' 8" for standard guage track (train track). There is only about 1 or 2 feet clearance on each side of the causeway which is about 200-300+ yards long. Where is this trail supposed to go now? Spends millions to widen the causeway and dredge the lake in that area. What is to be down with the widely used boat tunnel at Pickeral Cove, enlarge that at considerable expense? Beefing up the causeway would cost millions. I don not live in the above coves just go by them in my boat.

Logically for the trail to work in the above areas private property would have to be accessed. Comprimise will have to be sought. The WOW trail debate could go on for years with legal battles etc this can drag it on Ad infinitum.

WOW trail supporters remain upbeat....
 

Another article in this morning's on-line Citizen detailing the latest developments in the WOW trail proposal.

Story can be read HERE. :)

Just recently, concern for a personal injury accident between the bicycle-walking-roller skating-running-cross country skiing, non-motorized use path and the summer-time, Winnipesaukee railroad train prompted the deciding NH authority to continue its' requirement for a 5' high, safety chain-link fence, despite hope to the contrary by local trail advocates.

Apparently, hope for a trail without the safety fence is not too high, at this time.

Which leads me to to make the observation that the residential waterfront homes at South Down Shore, and that other expensive place in Meredith....what's the name....Grousse Point...both expensive developements are built on medium to very steep hillsides, have huge setbacks from the water, and are situated high above the trail's location....all of which...means that their views easily look out ABOVE the proposed five foot fence.

Therefore, a five foot chain link fence will not be such a big deal of a problem. Probably it could be dark green vinyl coated, as opposed to silvery galvanized steel, so's it will easily blend into the grass, trees, fields, and lake and not be an eyesore. It will grow on you!:)

Hey, it's not like Laconia or Meredith or Belmont will be renting fence space to advertisers for sponsoring the little league, or something.

Thankyou and goodnight!:)

Considering the fund-raising required for the WOW trail and the current economy, I'm not too worried about it at this point.

Fence
 

Yeah the econmy stinks at this point. South down sits on the level with the tracks Grouse pt. merdith sitsup on a hill, a fence is eyesore-- period from the land or water. Lets talk money, any of these communties that are "rich" can and I would guess fight this and in my experience this could go on for years if not decades- aka "court battles"...SDS houses are cheap compared to others- rich? dont think so Grouse PT is more pricey.

The 1/3 mile long causeway at Pickeral cove near the Weirs would have to dredged and the railbed that is currently in use would have to be widened, and where the tracks currently sit would require tons of fill/gravel and boulders, not to mention tons of "cash" big bucks-do I smell another bailout- dont think so- if you have ever used a waterfront construction company they charge a ton of cash to fix a dock-or a breakwater, hundreds of dollars an hour..Pickeral cove--also require new tunnels for boat traffic and all this for a walking path?

Higher Priorities
 

I would think in these economic times that there are higher priorities than the WOW trail. Personally, I think that the trail would be an eye sore and detract from the lake in many ways. The stretch of the trail along Winnisquam is ugly and not maintained. The construction cost of the trail along the waterfront will be phenominal. There is also a tressel bridge along Pickeral cove that will not accommodate the trail...is a special bridge going to be built? This thing will cost millions of dollars. In this economy, let's concentrate on donating to the hungry, animal shelters etc...socially, that is the responsible thing anyhow.

Jetskier:cool:

....Obama W.O.W. money!
 

Here's an interesting new twist on the building of the W.O.W. Trail, as reported in the Laconia Daily Sun a few days ago. The WOW sections in Laconia and Belmont apparently should qualify for federal cost sharing for WOW Trail construction.

It's been noted that a lot more of New Hampshire federal taxpayer money leaves the state than comes back in, so the WOW Trail is a very welcome project.

It is proposed to travel along the waterfronts of Belmont, Laconia & Meredith.:cheers:

Interesting. I heard this project was all but dead. Seems some (many) of the pledged donations aren't coming through as planned.

....all built by hand....no machines...
 

No doubt, there wil be some more newspaper articles on the prospects of getting construction money from the federal government.

Belknap County has the state's second highest unemployment rate after Coos County, which is the northern most county. To employ additional workers, maybe the federal gov can demand WOW Trail construction digging all done by hand with no machine back-hoe diggers.....just locals with picks & shovels & wheel barrows...the feds is hiring....it's time to go get on that there shovel gang...and start swing'n a pick and digg'n the ground on up wit a shovel....Probably, when the railroad built the embankments 125 years ago, it was all done by hand labor.

What's the NH minimum wage now.....is it $7.15/hour?

Seems like the WOW Trail should qualify as a "shovel-ready" project.
:rolleye2: Hey there....here's a shovel....now, go get busy!:D

It seems like the real issue is that a compromise is needed. On one hand, I sympathize with the SDS types who don't want a fence, but on the other hand, the train was there well before SDS. If I was buying lakefront property for the views, I would be very concerned that a strip of land I don't own is between me and the water.

As another poster said, there must be a better way to keep kids, etc. from running onto the tracks without installing an eyesore.

a WOW Trail stimulus
 

Today's Laconia Citizen has a brief article titled "Laconia's WOW trail said to be high on stimulus fund list" as it meets the three requirements of the federal stimulus fund.

The very recently passed American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 has designated 129 million dollars for New Hampshire. Out of this, 3.9 million is allowed for transportation enhancement, and the WOW Trail which is seeking $700,000 for the Laconia section seems to meet the requirements.

It could help to extend the tourist season at the Weirs as a bicycle trail can be used from late March to early December. Snow melts faster on an asphalt paved trail.

With regard to the objections to South Down Shore to a 5' high, chain link, safety fence. Looking at SDS from across Paugus Bay it looks like every waterfront home is not really located right on the water where it would be close to the fence. The homes are all situated way uphill and set back enough so their view would not be impaired by a 5' see-thru, chain link fence. Hey, if they are real unhappy with the fence, SDS can always plant some roses and turn the fence into a green vinyl, chain link fence with roses growing intertwined through the fencie-wencie. That could be very nice looking in that situation, don't you agree!:)
.......
From today's March 18 Laconia Daily Sun: headline;

W.O.W Trail should get nice shot of stimulus money

Here's the opening and closing sentence from a nine paragraph article.

(1st) LACONIA- The Winnisquam-Opechee-Winnipesaukee (W.O.W.) Recreational Trail stands to be a major beneficiary of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) in the Lakes Region.

(last) "This is really-good news...Phase two will happen much sooner than we anticipated."

I have read many posts submitted by Fatlazyless over the past few years and I have to admit that most seem to be very sarcastic. I wonder what problem he has with SDS. As suggested in a prior post, maybe he should walk the rail bed on the SDS waterfront to see how a fence would impact what many feel is one of the most important parts of the community.

I've never been to the South Down Shore waterfront so I don't know but it sure seems that a 12' wide, paved asphalt, walking-biking-cross country skiing-roller blading-non motorized used, public trail proposed to be buit on the state owned railroad right-of-way would be welcomed as a major recreational enhancement to the Lakes Region. Available at no charge to the user, it will create a nine mile long x 12' wide, paved asphalt trail along three lakeside waterfronts in Belmont, Laconia and Meredith with Weirs Beach in a central location.

Sounds excellent to me.....what's not to like? The initial building of it creates jobs...and it can attract a new demographic of tourist visiter; bicyclers who could spend a day biking the nine miles plus combine a three hour Mount Washington cruise. Bicycling is good exercise for ages one to 101. Hey, when was the last time you pedalled along a mostly flat and highly scenic, waterfront bike path? Who knows, once you see it and try it, you might even like it? :)!

FLL,

I totally agree with you and I hope that they can get at least the first phase of the WOW Trail completed.

It provides jobs, it supports the tourist business that is critical to our area and it appears it qualifies for the federal money intended to help the economy. Seems like a great thing to do to me and I hope it moves forward quickly. In the words of a great American: "Lets Roll!"

I even like your suggestion of planting roses to climb the fence.

Agreeing with you id scary, but I think you are "spot on" with this.

R2B

What could be uglier than 5 miles of chain link fence......not just in front of SDS,but the entire western shore of Paugus Bay?This is a foolhardy idea that should have been scrapped as soon as the fence requirement became known.Because of the hilly terrain,there are few bike enthusiasts in the lakes region,while there are thousands of snowmobilers who will now have access to the lake restricted.
Stop for a moment and quickly name all of the people that you know that ride bikes on a regular basis(I can think of only two and I've been here most of my life) This is just a bad idea.

Yes, it's certainly true that the local hills combined with narrow shoulder lanes are a challenge to bicyclers. Isn't that all the more reason to utilize the state owned, railroad right-of-way and turn it into an incredibly scenic, waterfront, public use, bicycle-walking path.

Once it get's built, how popular will it be, and how long will it be in use......10-20-50-100 years?

Bicycling up a hill is indeed very strenuous. Bicycling along a mostly flat, waterfront scenic trail, without the danger of cars & trucks is much more appealing so all the more reason to build it. Good bicycles can be found at yard sales for low prices, and can last for many years. A decent bike can cost from $25 used, to $1000 for the new, light weight, skinny machines. Build a local wow trail and it could attract plenty to come use it.

Twelve feet is the standard width for a New Hampshire automobile lane, and is also the proposed width for the wow trail which would have two-way traffic, as I understand. Boston and Cambridge, Massachusetts, have bicycle-walking paths on both sides of the Charles River that run out to Watertown, about 12 miles away, and these paths seem to be 12' wide or less. It all works ok even with some very heavy use at times.

Those who have never been on public property that has proximity to The Lake should avail themselves of what we have - such a great asset.

When snow is there, x-c ski, snow shoe, walk, etc. When the snow is gone, WALK from Weirs to Meredith in vicinity of Marina. Or borrow a bicycle designed with tires for off-road. Some of the trail will be rough grass like the rough on golf course, some like lawn mowed grass, some like a dirt road, or gravel road, and some will be paved. In other words a large variety of surface exists.
As if walking in the National Parks, respect the publicly owned property: carry in / carry out. Respect the private property you observe nearby.

I am not rendering a position that it be fenced or not fenced, but WE HAVE SUCH AN ASSET. I do not understand why such childish arguing.
As a shoe company says: JUST DO IT!

For the wow trail to be built without the dreaded 5' high, chain link fence, there's a bill in the senate which would help make this possible. What it does is to treat railroads that share their land with a free public trail similar to private landowners who share land for public snowmobile trails. Sounds interesting and is currently under review....so perhaps the shoreline residents of Paugus Bay will not be burdened with a chain link fence, after all.

What with federal stimilus money and this legislative bill relieving the rr of some liability, maybe the wow trail will actually get built.

Lots of issues in the way of making this possible
 

As an avid snowmobiler, I know very well what this area from Laconia to Meredith looks like. It isn't wide enough at many places to do this. For instance, there is at least one railroad bridge on Paugus Bay about 1/2 mile south of the Weirs. A seperate bridge would have to be built. Several streams and drainage culverts would have to be buried and bridges built. (Some of the same ones that washed out last year) Many trees at water's edge will have to be removed. The route 3 bridge at the Weirs would have to be ripped down and widened to safely get to Weirs beach. (it has about 2 feet of space on each side for the train) From the Weirs to Meredith, you would have to fill in hundreds of feet of Winnipesaukee and wetlands to make the trail wide enough. In many of these areas the RR bed isn't more that 4 feet wider than the RR tracks on each side. I know that because you can barely ride a snowmobile outside of the RR tracks without falling into the lake or the ponds/wetlands on the other side. (A snowmobile is 4 feet wide)

It seems that with all of the environmental laws of today, this will go way over budget and be in for a long legal battle.