I gots to type faster
 

Seems my post on this issue is redundant. You saw it the same way I did.

The difference is although I may not agree with APS many times you ALWAYS know where he stands and is someone who has been making the same arguement for years. He doesn't take things personal or use the forums for an agenda.

P.S.. yup thats right I am sticking up for APS!! (take note)

Elchase
 

There has been no outrage by the SL opponents about comments towards you or any SL supporters because it is believed they are made in jest. I for one have never intended to threaten or bully anyone here and if you feel that way I sincerely apologize. I don’t believe negative comments made by members here have been personal attacks or actual threats; for the most part they have been directed at conflicting points of view not at individuals. While I have disagreed with just about every comment you have ever made here I do not wish you any harm and would condemn anybody who does. There is a big difference between making a joke and making a threat. Both sides have had there share of critical statements however they have been benign in nature.

The latest harsh statement is credited to you ELCHASE “...how many of the opposers on this forum are felons?”. I could get all defensive about this but…why? I am not a felon, the people I know here are not felons so quite frankly this comment doesn’t bother me in the least because it was not directed at a specific individual, it was directed at a person who may commit a crime in your channel.

Elchase As for your deal…I cannot speak for others but I will accept your challenge on two conditions.

1. We only include boats that can legally operate at night.
2. We are attempting to determine the minimum SUSTAINABLE planing speed.

I will take this a step further. I will take my boat out on Saturday and determine its minimal sustainable planning speed. I will use GPS and make runs from Sandy Point to Echo Point. I will even invite you to come along to verify my findings.

Interesting. If you have followed the Littlefield case, the two bar owners 'conveniently' lost Littlefield bar tabs. They went on and became chief proponents of Winnfabs and SL. I consider that a felon. :rolleye2:

What a whiney couple they make :laugh:. A joke about parading "slowly" by "lawfully" at slow speed, producing large wakes, and El comes out whining again. Sounds a lot like 2BD to me. Pretty mean as well.

I think it's time to just ignore "those two", or three if you want. There have been lots of good posts back and forth. The more ideas you post, the meaner El and TB will get. Professional victims they are. I suggest that any direct reply just be "UH HUH". Leave it at that.

Anyway, good discussion on planing speeds.

Very interesting indeed. Amazing that the SL promoters never discussed that aspect, nor the founders of WINFABS. I'll just bet those very same founders are on this very board. I might add this about that case. If it weren't for his dad, he might not have been caught. In addition, the Vast majority of people that are against the SL cited this accident many times (I have), to have more night time enforcement. The SL crowd formed an agenda around it sadly, and have not accomplished a single thing.

My boat weighs approx. 11,000lbs with a beam of 10 feet. I can certainly get up on plane by 25mph, but just barely throwing a huge wake(maybe I can swing by elchase's place a go by a few times, I'm sure he'd appreciate it!). My optimal cruising speed is 32-35 mph depending on conditions.

Better not gta you'd be accused of "harassment." And you'd be obeying a law that HE proposes. :rolleye1: Pretty ironic huh? At least he admits that boating at night by his proposed law would be considered harassment. Ya see that el we actually agree on something. If an 18MPH nightime speed limit law were put in place I too would call it harassment every time a boat went by my house. :laugh:

"Be Careful What You Wish For." - I think that should be my new signature. I like it. ;)

You're right! I had not read his post where he said if we went by his place obeying the nightime speed limit we would be considered "felons"!:rolleye2:
Makes you kind of wonder.:laugh:

Solid as a wet noodle
 

As I said earlier, what's meant by "minimum". I'm pretty sure it's not what you or I would call solid.

Convicted?

If you were reading forum posts about the Winnipesaukee speed limit a couple of years ago, it would make me think you may have been posting about them as well. Were you posting here about them? If so, under what screen name? Just curious.

I would pose the same question to EL... What was his previous screen name?

WOW, I think your getting a bit torqued up over this.

Might be better to take the high road and sit this one out until you can cool off, otherwise the thread will be just wasted text and more smoke and mirrors about this whole SL issue.

Or is that the goal,,,

If so, sorry count me out, I didn't sign up for a food fight, I prefer boating!

I go to Winnipesaukee because its a good sized lake where you can enjoy a good blast across the lake and not get a big fine nor get called a felon.

If I wanted to take a 16 or 18 MPH put-put across a pond, then I'd boat on some pond.

Seems like the New World mentality, someone always thinks they can step in and change the rules, and its always in their own self-interest. To hell with the rest of us who don’t agree, just label us and keep saying it and pestering the politicians until you get your way and then we can all be miserable together. Yup that sounds like a great future.

Sure happy I was able to boat Winnipesaukee before the rule making omnipotent’s took over, because just like everything else they put their greedy little fingers on, they are spoiling this to,,,

Thanks for a meaningful exchange,,, NOT!!!

Sorry, now I'm the one that all torqued up and need to sit this one out,,,

No no no OCD don't you know? They were sideline readers who had no posts in the original SL threads. They have become so passionate this time that they just HAD to chime in. :laugh:

They are just instant experts on the forum. :laugh:

At least I can say that I've never changed my screen name. What are THEY trying to hide?



FYI, Felon, nope, CORI check proves that out. Matter of fact not even a speeding ticket in the last 15+ years. I rarely exceed 70MPH in a 65 and rarely exceed 60MPH in a 55. :D My insurance rates prove that out!

Knock on wood!

LOL....ever go 50 in a 45 or 30 in a 25?

Love the instant experts comment. Soooo true!

Felon?
 

Please don't tell the Dept of Defense, they will revoke my Secret clearance. They have been all over my background backwards, forward and in between and must have missed all of my criminal activity:rolleye1:.

El, about the only thing I have been guilty of is getting sucked into your foolishness.

All this talk about the criminal mentality is ridiculous. If you really want to know who the criminals are, look at Winnfabs for the lies they fabricated and spewed, and look at our politicians. Their stupidity in actually passing this law is criminal in itself. I guess after being hammered and brainwashed over the years by the whiners, they just gave in. The passing of any new law without supporting data is the ultimate in criminal mentality.


P.S. And, suprisingly, I support a night time SL.

I loved the parts about "creates large wakes with high speed banking turns". I've struggled with that one ever since I read it in their poorly prepared, non-factual PP presentation with both gramatical and spelling errors. :laugh:

We've had people like that ruin our waterfront over here. Cherish any of the many destinations you can go by boat on Winni, not here.

Speaking of planing speed, I was out yesterday and tested this theory. Granted, with a 5.0 and a light hull, I don;t have the issues many do. I can consistently stay on plane, which is key here, at 19 mph, 25 mph I'm fine. At 30, it drives a little better, and the wake is pretty small.

If you take a larger boat, the tests are not as easy. I would imagine for most boats, 25 - 30 mph is the sweet spot. (much easier if you clean your hulls too).

Fine with me, that's about my average at night for a long time, sometimes I'm closer to 20 than 25.

Thanks TB,
I've heard the same stories. Before my post yesterday, I got a private message from one of the opposers in which he just wanted to be sure I knew that he is a convicted felon and has spent some time in jail. Nice. Thanks for the heads up. I'm sure one could count up a couple of dozen admissions of law-breaking by this group on these threads, and they seem to be attracting more and more scofflaws every day to what used to be a forum for decent law-abiding locals. They boast about breaking the law as if it is a feat of heroism, and the rest pat them on the back. This is ok, because this is a law they don't agree with. And while this is a law that is very easy to obey, when other boaters inadvertently break another law that can be very difficult to obey in many cases, they are all over them...calling those offenders "captain boneheads" and worse. What a country we'd have if we could all just obey the laws we wanted to, huh? I'd become a thief. What would you become? But then, isn't this a good snapshot of the personality and behavior that led up to the SL in the first place? This is why I thought the Supporters' and Opposers' Threads were such a good idea...say what you feel and report what you see and nobody insults or torments you for it. Opening up these threads just invited the aggressors (from all over) and chased away the few remaining people this forum was supposedly created for. What a shame. I actually face a less hostile group when I post on the admittedly-GFBL sites. Dialogue there is much more civil. If someone posted some of the stuff you see here, they'd be thrown right off.

And by the way Hazelnut, since the "investigation" your friends did to expose where I live, you surely know that it is not possible to "abide by the law of course" if going the nighttime speed limit in a no wake zone. Puleeze. You are welcome to bring all the boats you can gather to "cruise by my house as many times as you possibly can at night", so long as you stay at headway speed and respect the town's noise ordinance and all other laws. I have no problem with that, I don't own the lake. That's why we have laws; to set reasonable and non-ambiguous limits on obnoxious or unsafe behavior which people (who are otherwise incapable of making rational decisions on their own) can follow to behave in a society. If you break our laws, you are either a "Capt Bonehead" or a scofflaw, no matter how you may try to dismiss it. I'd love to have a video of your group parading back and forth in front of my house in the middle of the night to punish me for my support of one of our laws. I think it would make a great story for WMUR. It would certainly do wonders for your reputations and efforts to gain sympathy in Concord this winter.

Have fun all...hope you show the same GFBLBV (Go-Fast-Be-Loud-Be-Vulgar) colors in January so the legislature can see what we are dealing with. Good bye.

I am not going to copy the above quote from EL because it doesn't deserve to be read more then once and frankly I am still laughing.


Will you please stop with the drama..........

Lets recap shall we:

1. Threads are opened up.
2. EL appears from no where claiming never to have posted but watched the from the sidelines because he did not want to be ridiculed.
3. Starts a supporters thread so that he could discuss the speed limits with again "no ridicule or intemidation" (however no discussion there in weeks)
4. No one continuously posts there so he starts causing arguments in the compromise thread.
5. Polls are made showing the majority of people on the site do not want the speed limits. He crys foul and tampering.
6. continues to make accusations and parses other peoples posts to try to piece together arguments.
7. Makes accusations that he is receiving prank phone calls.
8. Explains detailed history of Winni.com and prior posts from years ago (mind you from the sidelines)
9. Gets in heated disagreements where he accuses people of intemidation, however people immediately respond that they are sorry if he took it that way.
10. Calls the SL Opposers Felons for making jokes about going by his house and/or breaking the speed limits.
11. He gets people upset that they were called felons for having a discussion
12. Now says that the threads should not have been opened back up because of this intemidation.

Seriously, I think we all, supporters, opposers, and the webmaster can see your agenda. I as well as others have tried over and over to discuss things rationally and it never ceases to amaze me on how you twist every single comment.

There was a two week span that you did not post and many civil conversations took place between many supporters (again I applaud Sunset for his views, and even APS for many of his recent statements) and opposers.

The only member causing issues and crynig foul is EL....

So either please join in on civil conversations or stop the Melodramatics... It is getting tiring.


So back to minimum planing speed discussion as this thread was intended....

I think what we need to do is all come to an agreement as to the definition of being "safely" on plane. As discussed boat manufactorers list there #'s. But please keep in mind this is also from a marketing standpoint. Many manufactorers want their boats to have very low planing speeds so that they can boast that pulling a skier will be easier with their brand. However, as we all know just bringing the bow down does not make for a Safe planing speed. So before we can really discuss what would be realistic lets all try to come to a defination that works.

I feel in my boat that a safe planing speed would be roughly 30-32. This is where no trim tabs would be needed, I would not lose plane if I hit waves or made a course adjustment. I think that this would be most efficent for my boat (as it is currently propped) to avoid losing control (off plane) keeping a steady safe speed, and not throwing a large wake.

I am sorry but I think you are lying. If I'm wrong I apologize in advance but your track record speaks volumes. Seeing that Don sees all and most likely can see PM's? Don could you confirm or deny this? el I would be absolutely out of my mind over the edge irate if someone sent me a pm claiming they were a convicted felon. Isn't that a veiled threat to you. Why no outrage?

If it is true I think it is horrible and completely out of line.

Don could you please get to the bottom of this. If someone is PM'ng el or anyone for that matter telling him that they are a convicted felon and spent time in jail, what purpose could that serve other than to harass. If it turns out to be false... Well that's your call Don, not mine.

HN

My boat will safely and easily plane at 23 MPH or so. I like to cruise at 28 at night though, it's on plane at that speed with the tabs up and gets best fuel mileage. I think the speed limit at night is a good idea, but perhaps it should be 30 or 35 MPH.

I have friends in law enforcement... They have said that speed limits are set usually lower because people will normally exceed the limit. Hence why most traffic is moving at 70 - 75 mph rather then the set 65.

So the 25 may just be this same attempt to keep people below 35 which I all think we can agree that unless you are somewhat reckless, going over 35 at night is usually NOT advisable. Given in certain conditions is it safe. That is still debatable but hey thats what this forums are for. :D

I agree that a 25/45 limit is in reality a 30/50 limit or maybe higher. For an auto limit of 45 most drivers travel at least 50 with no hassle from the law. After all a speeding ticket for going say 48 in a 45 zone may have a hard time holding up in court whether the supposed infection was on land or water.

I'd like to think so but I recall a story or two on here from people who were not exceeding the limit, according to them, and were puled over. I just feel like it is way way more difficult on water to judge and estimate speed. I know they are supposed to use radar but can they pull someone over for an estimation of speed?

I read the same story and my estimation there was more to the story... It absolutely is more difficult to judge speed via water because there is no frame of reference in many cases. Not only that but it can be difficult for the driver considering some boats do not have or are require to have spedometers

As one who routinely rides a sport bike without getting stopped by law enforcement, on desolate back roads, I figured as much.

I'm liking this less and less,,, :(
 

And please let me add that on most boats I have owned, my speedometers were lucky to work half of the time and rarely accurately.

With my 2 current rigs, the CSS-23 speedo works about 2/3 of the time before something blocks the pitot. On my CVX-20 I'm lucky if it works 1/3 of the time,,, :(

And even when they do work, I have not found them to be very accurate when checked against my handheld GPS.

So are we now responsible to add GPS to all our boats???

And then whats more important, watching the speedo/GPS or the water ahead (and to the sides, and behind, and the instruments, and map and compass, and kids on board, etc)

When you think about it, it sure makes a lot of sense to have to worry about a particular speed limit with everything else we have to do to operate a boat safely and navigate to our destination, especially at night,,, NOT!!!

I'm liking this less and less,,, :(

I'm one who drives VERY slow at night, always have, but there is a bottom reasonable speed any particular boat will run and not curl a 3 foot wake nor tear your arm off from the torque steer (outboard with big 3 blade prop) and I don’t determine that speed by watching the speedo, it just a throttle setting where everything hits a sweet spot, and its different for EVERY boat I have ever driven!

So in my mind you cannot effectively set a single speed limit for night operation that will fit the majority of boats unless its really high, 35+ MPH or it’s a no wake speed.

I just don’t see this working out effectively, boats just aren’t cars and lower limit speed limits are really tough to set that will work for everyone.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-...285/CVX-20.jpg

It used to be, that speed limits in localities were set to the 90% level of most drivers speeds. In other words, if the vast majority of people were going 50, the speed limit was set there. Some towns, besieged by calls from chronic complainers, would place signs that listed the limit at 40 mph. Many times, if you looked up the Legal speed limit, it was still 50. Case closed.

Basically, we have several 40 mph complainers on board here.

elchase
 

Obvously don't want to comment on the wrongdoing of two Winnfabs proposers. So it must be allright by him for proposers to break the law and not the opposers. :confused:

threatening PMs
 

ElC, If you have truly received threatening PMs I hope you forward them to Don for action. There is no call for that.

Huh????????????

Name calling
 

Elchase, I take exception to you calling a long time and well respected member of this and another forum a thug. When you have been around here a while you will figure out the outstanding humor and sincerity and caring from most of our members. Each of us has a personality online that others have come to appreciate. This cannot be discerned from being here a short time.

Hazelnut is one of my favorite posters with a great sense of humor. Please take your nastiness elsewhere.

IG

About 15mph (GPS), '83 Starcraft SSC150 (15.5 ft) 40HP Merc

IG,

Thanks so much! Almost brought a tear to my eye. *sniff* *sniff* :D

I have gone back and re-read my post and I guess if I were overly sensitive I would take it as a threat. :rolleye1: Really though if you know me you'd know that was not the intention of the post. It's the old saying: "If I have to explain it, it aint' funny."
The funny thing is though it got such a rise and reaction out of that particular individual that I felt like the post worked better than I had planned. The person unknowingly admitted that it would be just about criminal for people to drive by someone's house obeying a nighttime speed limit that they propose (I.E. 16-18 MPH).

The real issue here that the opposition fails to recognize is that many boats on the lake cause real shoreline damage when cruising at or below 20 MPH. Many boats have a difficult time maintaining adequate steerage below 25 MPH.

Another side affect of the law is that you now have many nighttime captains with their heads buried in their speedometers fretting over their speed. We have taken the decision away from the captain as to how he or she operates his or her vessel reasonably at night. I for one have caught myself at night and said to myself "OH SHOOT, Speed Limit." Then I find myself obsessing over a few measly miles per hour. Why? I rarely traveled faster than 35 MPH at night. 30-32 It is an optimal speed for my boat day or night. So now I have to temper that down a bit and it is an extra effort that distracts me from the many many other tasks related to safe operation at night.

About Me: I have been driving on this lake for over 28 years, day AND night. This year was the least enjoyable year for me at night. My boat is a 248LS Monterey Bow Rider. Max Speed 50.1 with a strong tailwind, half tank of fuel, and 2 Passengers. Realistically the boat does 47MPH according to the GPS. I will most likely own this boat for the next 10+ years.

I am on record supporting a compromise. I stand by that position. It seems that non-boating lawmakers are making these arbitrary laws using numbers pulled out of the sky. I really wish the legislature would assemble a study group comprised of individuals representing all pursuits. I wish these people could assemble and logically discuss all facts and remove the emotion from the discussion. They could remove the words "afraid" and "scared" from the discussion. Replace those words with "reasonable" and "prudent." Perhaps all sides could be heard and boaters could explain why certain numbers don't work at certain times. Maybe just maybe a compromise could be reached and all sides could have input.

Unfortunately lawmakers don't work that way. Most create bills and subsequent laws solely for the purpose of press coverage and notoriety. :(

It's not nastiness, it's concern for some of the threatening/intimidating postures seen on this forum, other forums, and outside of the cyberworld. I agree with others that Hazelnut is one of the more egregious offenders here and I suspect he was one of the people as well whom Don was referring to as badgering the SL supporters so that they would leave the forum. He may be one of your favorite posters but he needs to deal with some of the above issues.

Nope. As a matter of fact Don and I emailed back and forth this summer and I received some nice words from him:

"I don't think I've ever had any problems with your posts and I appreciate your contributions."

and

"Join us on the ForumFest cruise and introduce yourself."

Sorry I couldn't make it Don.

Please don't lump me in with those individuals (if they even exist) that as you said make:
"threatening/intimidating postures seen on this forum, other forums, and outside of the cyberworld."

I could argue slander here but I won't. I'm a big boy, I can take it. ;)

I'm sure you won't...especially if you go back and reread some of your posts to people whom you disagree with!

I think most people can judge for themselves who means well and who probably does not. The statements by El indicate that he is a professional troublemaker. His attacks on people here that I consider to be high quality, regardless of their positions on any subject, are despicable.

There have been some very civil, thoughtful, and constructive threads and posts this year since Don graciously opened the forums up again. There are only three people that set out to destroy the discussions. Failing that, they directly attack those that have been constructive. I admit, they are good at it, possibly all they are good at.

Bottom line, there are some great people here. Hazelnut is one of them. We pretty much know where everyone stands, and it's great hearing new opinions and ideas. It's not so great hearing from nasty people. I'm sure most readings understand the irony of these people's posts. Time to ignore them. Without an audience, they wither on the vine.