If the gasoline is being used right away... ethanol or non-ethanol shouldn't matter.

It seems to be when it sits for a long time the ethanol degrades from the humid air.

Well - It looks like the price of gas on the lake could be well over $5.00/Gallon. Maybe closer to $6.00.

Now that may keep people from going W.O.T. and pulling the kids on tubes.

I have already set the stage for my summer visitors to expect short trips and lots of Anchor time. :-)

“Passing the hat” on tubing days


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The way things are going I think automobile gas will soon be $5.00 or $6.00 a gallon. If that's the case, marina gas could be $7.00 or more easily.

Should be more elbow room at Braun Bay this summer.

over the weekend my family was put on notice by me that we will only be taking 1 car to NH unless not going on the same day, otherwise if we get there at 10pm we get there at 10pm waiting for everyone. No more 2/3 cars heading to the same location 100 miles away for now:rolleye1:.

There goes my sunsets alone

I was thinking the exact same thing!


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Ditto, which makes me wonder what traffic will be like...or wait times at restaurants...

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Given the pandemic, and now this gas price issue. It is likely going to mean continued struggles for some NH businesses.

Myself it looks like the truck will stay home more and we will take the wifes car more often. As for boating, the season is short, and for everything else there is Mastercard....

I think if gas hits $6 or $ 7 a gallon here there will be larger issues than boat gas…..

S & d
 

Some think this is supply and demand, but recall there are folks in DC who think this is exactly what we need to reduce carbon footprint and they have effectively eliminated enough supply to do away with a free market economy. I just don't understand how those folks can have so much money and not want to own a boat. Maybe they are just guests on other peoples/lobbyists boats?

Everyone is different.

Some of us love our time on our boats, and we are not on our boats, we are thinking about the next time we can be.

Many of us love our time at the lake, and when we are not there, look forward to the next time we can be.

But, we have to remember, many people would be just as happy to stand at the Museum of Fine arts and stare at a picture, and wish they could own it. (In my mind, that is just because no one ever took them out on Lake Winnipesaukee in a boat. Who wouldn't love that?) :)

Recreational boats are a bad investment unless you are a manufacturer or salesperson.

Oil hasn't been a free market since OPEC was created before I was born.
To effectively control the price of oil, you need to be an exporting country.

''In our February 2022 Short-Term Energy Outlook (STEO), we forecast that crude oil prices will remain high enough to drive U.S. crude oil production to record-high levels in 2023, reaching a forecast 12.6 million barrels per day (b/d). We expect new production in the Permian Basin to drive overall U.S. crude oil production growth.
In the February STEO, we forecast that U.S. crude oil production will increase to 12.0 million b/d in 2022, up 760,000 b/d from 2021. We forecast that crude oil production in the United States will rise by 630,000 b/d in 2023 to average 12.6 million b/d. We expect more than 80% of that crude oil production growth to come from the Lower 48 states (L48), which does not include production from Alaska and the Federal Offshore Gulf of Mexico.
Production from new L48 wells, particularly in the Permian region, drive our forecast of U.S. crude oil production growth. Legacy production, or crude oil production from existing wells, typically declines relatively quickly in tight oil formations, and we expect that production from new wells will offset these legacy production declines.
Crude oil prices have generally increased since April 2020, resulting in increased crude oil production. The Brent spot price for crude oil (the international benchmark) reached $97 per barrel (b) on February 7, 2022, the highest nominal price (not adjusted for inflation) since September 17, 2014.
From January 8, 2021, to February 7, 2022, the L48 added 220 oil-directed rigs, 114 of which were in the Permian region. We forecast that production in the Permian region will average 5.3 million b/d in 2022 and 5.7 million b/d in 2023.''

Doesn't seem to be any problem other than low prices that limited US oil production. If OPEC doesn't pump... then US drillers will.
Will OPEC pump to knock out those US drillers... maybe... but we will have to see.

Can’t disagree


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They're talking $200 a barrel for Oil. $7-8 dollars a Gallon if that happens.

Pretty soon you’ll see the Witches turned into a massive charging station for your electric boats. What a perfect world it will be… (tongue is in cheek).

I say:

DRILL - BABY - DRILL !

True, they are pure recreation...
 

True 'dat, as the hip people say. They're not an investment at all, unless it's maybe a 1930's mahogany Chris Craft or something of that ilk. The only "return" you'll get is enjoyment; no different than spending money on any other hobby or sport that you do in your down-time. Maybe one difference though...boats are now so darn expensive to buy/keep/maintain...that's where some folks get in over their heads financially.

It’s about time it’s priced what it should be.

I don’t care if it’s $10/gallon personally.
I’m 99% Solar for all energy needs.

But I do care how much it impacts the economy.
And care about families that simply can’t afford it.

Such a sudden change is never good.
Pleasure Boats are the last problem.

I had wished they taxed the hell out of gas while it was cheap to help fund desperately needed road / bridge reconstruction. And alternative fuels so that we are less dependent on oil.

Yes just don't pay attention to the fact that those solar panels are made of highly toxic materials and the manufacturing process isn't exactly environmentally friendly, but that's OK it's done out of sight in China so who cares. And this stuff is being thrown in landfills that are NIMBY.

Just like the EVs, don't pay any attention to the extremely harmful strip mining (overseas so out of sight out of mind) that is occurring to get the raw materials to make batteries that too are highly toxic to manufacture and recycle\dispose of.

When we as a nation are committing economic suicide to virtue signal how "green" we are and to do so turning a blind eye to the environmental impacts that occur elsewhere to do it.... it's comically hypocritical. This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.

Who are they - and where are they?:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Standard oil industry misinformation. Every reputable study shows huge environmental benefits to both solar and EVs, even after taking these points into account.

A related issue that does not require scientific analysis--the economic benefits to homes and businesses with solar panels were huge even before the price run up. Now they are massive.

As msw points out--if you have solar, heat pumps, and an EV, jumps in oil prices have virtually no impact on your wallet. I'm pretty sure that last year my net energy bill for a 3,000 sq ft house in Mass plus an electric car was a negative number--I received more in green energy credits than I paid for heat, lights, and gasoline. I'm an extreme case, but for anyone with a house in a sunny spot, solar panels are like an ATM on the roof

This has nothing to do with oil.... you may find this story rather interesting.

My electric bill right now is running me about $25.00 per month here in Idaho. Why so cheap? Hydroelectric power and a lot of it. What could be more green than that? Well the environmentalists out here want to remove the dams and return the rivers to their "natural state" which they have no coherent plan to replace the power generated from them which will drive those costs skywards, and how much sense does it make to replace something that is in place now, working awesome and is already renewable?

The net result of this beyond the power void it creates? Lack of flood control, inability to guarantee irrigation water to all the ag producers, taking away the transportation lanes for many products that use more efficiently these riverways for transporting goods and dumping them where? Rail lines or OTR trucking? Hmm....

Makes zero sense, but to the greenies they want what they want to hell with anyone else or the economic suicide that it takes to get there.

I am NOT anti alternative energy, I really think it will get there, but it takes time, this is an emerging technology so let it emerge. In the mean time coherent and responsible energy needs to be readily available to all at a reasonable cost to consumers. We have the ability to be self sufficient, and with that independent on the world stage, that translates into an ability to handle events such as what is going on today differently. This is not a provocative way of thinking - it is a sane and sensible thing to do. Bankrupting the country and funding outlaw states that wreak havoc around the world does not.

Americans can be impatient and want change immediately. A drastic change in energy should be evolutionary, not revolutionary. Otherwise you end up with expensive technology obsolete in a very short time.

If nuclear is not a part of the discussion, it's not going to be a serious discussion.

Evolution of solar....
 

I found this quite educational...I know it's an ad...

https://news.energysage.com/solar-pa...ost-over-time/

Cost of fuel...
 

At these numbers, thinking of converting to propane from oil. Currently have propane for parlor stove and cooking. Has anyone recently undergone the conversion?


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You realize how much this stuff costs? What percent of America has the money to outlay for this?

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All forms of energy cost. The idea is to diversify. Nothing it perfect.
But it sure beats burning fossil fuel.

The panels will get recycled. There isn’t much infrastructure yet in the US because there isn’t much need. EU started Solar earlier and has recycling programs now.

https://www.cedgreentech.com/article...ls-be-recycled

You’re just trying to justify burning fossil fuel is better.

Your right that EV’s have a long ways to go to be carbon neutral too.

But I don’t mind helping fund energy diversity. EV’s will get better and better.
Each generation of Tesla batteries aims to use less heavy metals.

Your just trying to justify your gas burning ICE is sone how better. Well sure isn’t good for the lakes.

Your also right that China might be more sloppy in producing batteries and panels.

It is the direction things are going. Massive facilities are going Solar and EV for a reason. I doubt the aim it to pollute more. Amazon, Apple, Meta etc all aim to be carbon neutral. Carbon is the major problem right now. Yea, we will have deal with other side effects too.

Go ahead and encourage the world to keep buying oil from OPEC and Russia I guess is your plan.

I’ll take my chances with PV and EV. Much more manageable, long term.

You do realize propane is much more expensive than oil. It might not be for a short while, but it will probably continue that track. It does burn a lot cleaner and less issues. But I’d much more expensive.

You have a point.

Solar is pretty cheap though.

My ROI is 6 years. After that it’s PROFITABLE.
Yes, will make money.
Because I take some burden off the grid they pay me CASH to be self sustaining.

Solar is NOT free. You are prepaying it.
The rule of thumb is I’m paying about 0.08 KWh (as opposed to 0.26 KWh in MA).

You can lease and save some money long term.
But if you can afford it you do save money, quite a bit, long term.

Say your electric bill is $150 a month.
Multiple that out 20 years and it’s $36,000

Install Solar for $18K. Bill goes to $0.00

You save $18,000.00

Now that assume price doesn’t go up. The more it goes up the more you save.

Now you could invest that $36,000 too and keep paying for electricity.
I elected to go green-ER

EV’s are almost in reach of average consumer. Maybe 5 more years.
You don’t need to be rich to own one now. But you need to be comfortable.
If you can afford lake property I suspect you can afford both with no problem.

The number one reason I buy a Tesla is, it’s one of the safest vehicles on the planet to get me to and from NH. It’s the only way I can justify it because it’s not financially sound just yet. Even with Solar to power it.

You realize that everything before and after "install solar at $18k" is worthless, right?

Something like 60% of Americans would be wiped out by a thousand dollar expense.

The increase in fuel, food, clothing, etc. costs are going to force hundreds of thousands from middle class to lower class status.

What percent of Americans can afford $18k?! And, if they'd have to take a loan out in order to do so, or not pay off other loans in the process, your ROI is directly affected.

True story: I was at Market Basket last week and the guy next to be bought two rolls of toilet paper even though the 4-pack was on sale for 25% off because he only had enough in his budget for two rolls. Extrapolate that to all areas of life, and therein lies the glitch.

THAT'S most of America.

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Am I wrong? Currently, we pay to maintain the power grid, and the utility charges accordingly, billing for power used, delivery/grid and taxes and fees. At some point in time, the practice of buying solar back from individual residences will cease as the number of people paying full price drops below a certain level. Like Social Security, Medicare and other government programs, when there are more people taking benefits and too few paying the bill, the system will fail. Right now, the law requires the grid to buy your excess electricity like a government program. When that subsidy goes away, the ROI for solar will change dramatically, and may collapse. Ask your school board why all those flat roofs don't have solar panels. It's not economically feasible, and the voters don't want to pay huge upfront costs that have no conversion subsidy, right?

I think most of you are missing the point.
Large corporations do large projects... not an individual or a small group.
So other than rooftop solar, a backyard windmill, or some smaller system... it really is just a matter of historical precedent for large corporations.

Build a nuclear facility, go bankrupt. Attempt to build a pipeline in southern NH or reverse the flow in northern NH, face the backlash from both political parties. Try to build a transmission line, face the backlash from both political parties and lose millions.

So other than conservation... the only new sourcing will be those small projects.

Complaining may make some feel better, but it doesn't change the fact that we are using more than we can supply without relying on others that many, if not most, we don't like.

By the way... 4.20 at the pump.

You do know what Net Metering is, right?
You don’t get it all back. NH takes 25%. MA takes 20%.
There are also connect fees etc.
But you can “pay” for it with kwh at least you can in MA
So you size your system to over produce enough to cover it.

So electric company can produce less energy when needed.
So both parties win.

Now if everyone did that, it would not work. But currently it does.
And we have a long ways to go.

Things will adjust accordingly.

In some states don’t offer NetMetering.
Then you invest in battery. There is no need to with NetMetering.

By the time the ROI gets bad the the panels will be much cheaper, more power and cheaper batteries.

26% tax credit ends this year BTW.
I plan to install another Solar system in NH this year to get the tax credit.

And I’ll probably get premium dollars for my house in MA when I show the buyer my electric bill and EV charger. So it won’t matter that I ever reached my ROI date.

Like I said. If you can’t afford it. You lease. That’s what all the Solar calls are and guy in the Home Depot store is selling. Zero out of pocket. You will pay less for electricity and over time it will save you more. My friend did that and they put in a whole new service for free. If system doesn’t produce enough juice. Say in winter the roof is covered. They PAY him a check to give the electric company to pay his bill !!

Anyone that is considering Solar probably owns a home to put the Solar on.
I suspect most home owners could afford it.

It’s one of the best purchases I’ve ever made.

I have to laugh when anyone tries to argue against it. Just ridiculous. Like it’s a crime or something.

If you get a full Tesla setup (Solar and EV) it will time the charging of your car to when you are over producing on Solar. (Saves that 25% on NetMetering). Since the EV is fairly flexible of when it gets filled.

I think we agree!:)

I agree 100% that climate change has made disabling hydropower a really bad thing to do, and that we should be increasing hydropower. And that we need a sane coherent system. And that funding bastards like Putin and MBS in Saudi Arabia is terrible in several different ways.

Our only difference may be that I'm more eager to get off oil--in part due to climate change, in part due to geopolitical issues. But if your using hydro today, I salute you

I agree that the outlay is tough for many people:

On solar--pretty much any homeowner with a decent roof and credit rating can lease panels with no money down, and still get the majority of the savings from the systems.

On heat pumps--I would only expect a person to do this if they were doing a renovation, so they have cash.

On EVs--they are less expensive than they appear and getting cheaper all the time. Volkswagen, just for example, is now shipping their ID.4, price is about $35K after EV rebate. More coming soon from VW, Ford, Subaru, Nissan, in addition to higher cars.

I totally agree too.

Almost anything we do will cause some harm.

It really bothered me how so many were against more windmills.
Stupid stupid arguments from really smart people.

Yes, they will kill some birds. Yes, you will see them. Yes there will be some impact installing them. But they are a net win vs the alternatives.

We may never get rid of oil. But that’s ok.
But we can try to rebalance sources so we use a little of each.
Too much of anyone causes the most harm.

Wasn’t it hydro power that Canada wanted to send down our way that 95% NH said no too. I don’t even care if it passed through NH. If MA burns less oil, that’s good for NH too.

Like someone mentioned. Why should all the harm happen in China and NH get off with little or no impact? We all have to share some burden for energy.

Looking at Windmills and allowing a power line through was a pretty small penalty compared to sacrifices other states make. Coal states, fracking states, oil states, mining states.

Would I prefer not have solar panels on my pretty new house. Sure. But it’s worth it and I’ll make it work with the least visual impact. And for the record Solar might not work out in NH for me. I’m not gonna cut a bunch of trees for it. Maybe I’ll put up a wind mill. That would go over big ;)

A couple of great points!

I agree the subsidies will taper off as more people get solar, so get in soon! I disagree the system will fail--the government will subsidize as easy landing--just as it is doing with the programs you cite.

School Boards and other nonprofits are not eligible for the big money part of the subsidies. A homeowner or business gets 26% of their solar investment back immediately in the form of a tax credit. (Businesses also get accelerated depreciation on top of that--87% in Year 1). Schools, local governments, and nonprofits such as YMCAs and churches do not pay taxes, so they do not get the credit. In effect, if a car dealer and a church both buy solar, the church is paying 50% more than the car dealer. Obviously this is messed up and makes it impossible for the School Boards. (The Build Back Better bill had a provision to fix this.)

You make good points.

But I bet most installers would give churches and non profits a 26% better price.
I guarantee they mark up a good chunk because they know your getting 26% off. I bet prices drop proportionally when credits expire.
I don’t care that much though. It’s the small companies trying to get into new tech that needs it just as much as the consumer does.

I guarantee Tesla got most of the EV Tax credits. Once they expired prices dropped.

Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.

First a few points of clarification;
1. When the NH PUC changed the rules on net metering four years ago the credits issued for excess solar production exported back into the grid went from dollar for dollar to ~75 cents on the dollar on the credit side. The individual utilities, not the State, were allowed to retain the 25% net metering discount. At the same time the PUC decreed that the utilities in turn would have to change their crediting from kWh to a monetary basis. Overall this seems to me a very equitable plan, the utilites get to keep 25% on the power exported into their grid, and the consumer can now use the credits to offset the fixed net metering costs that formerly would have always produced a billing. This was especially beneficial to the NHEC customers because the credits can now be used against their stiff $31 meter (membership) fee. I have a modest 8.2 kW roof mounted solar array, but from April until usually January don't see a billing at all ...very satisfying.

2. Leasing solar is only good for the solar installer! Generally the programs only reward you with a fixed low monthly utility rate in exchange for mounting an array on your property. If the general utility rates should ever go down you may find yourself locked into a contract rate that is higher than the public utility rate and upside down. This is fairly unlikely, but rates do occasionally decline. The Co-op will sometimes do this when they hike their fixed memebership fee and present it as a marketing advantage when in fact for most clients the higher meter fee offsets any temporary decline in the kWh rate. By the way don't take this as a criticism of the Co-op, they are only doing what's neccesary to accomodate their ever increasing costs while presenting it to their clients as favorably as possible.
Second, if you have a leased solar array on your roof that asset is not yours, and it is in fact a huge deteriment to your property. If you ever want to sell, the contract has to be assumed by the new buyer, or you need to pay the cost to have the array removed and the roof made weatherproof again.
3. The solar installer gets to keep the 26% ITC ....nuff said.

As far as affordability for the general public goes, it shouldn't be a problem at all as long as you have maintained your credit scores. We generally refer our clients to Mascoma Bank for financing their renewable energy projects. Their program is excellent, they are local, and the service top notch. The end result for the potential solar buyer is that their monthly outlay to finance their solar array is the same or maybe even less that their current monthly utility bill ...but at the end of their financing contract they own the solar array producing their power and from that point forward that portion of their electricity is coming to them for free. In addition, should they wish to sell their home in the near future the asset value of the array is part of the value of the home they are selling. Sure there will still be some buyers that shy away from a solar array, but not that many.

The cost of EV's... I bought a pristine loaded Chevy Volt coming in off of a lease two years ago and it has been a wonderful experience! The car had 23K miles on it when I took possession and Colonial Chevy in Mass delivered it to my New Hampton home for just $23k, with an extended warranty covering it to 50k miles! I have nearly that on it already and will be trading it soon for another newer lease end low mileage Volt. The car is a delight to drive, has all of the goodies I want, and easily saves me $250 a month in fuel alone over the cost of driving my Duramax. Whenever possible I try to charge it midday so that my excess solar goes into the Volt at 100% of value, rather than at night when that same solar energy would have been subjected to the 25% net metering discount. I can leave my New Hampton home and rive up to Cannon and back and it only costs me a 1/4 gallon of gas (the Volt has a backup onboard generator), and if I wantedto go to the Cape, I'll be somewhere across the Mass border before the generator even starts purring in the background. Best part is, even when I'm running on the generator the car still is getting 40+ mpg and has the scoot of an EV.
I do have money down on both the new Ford Lightning and a Chevy Silverado EV and will take whichever I can first get my hands on. I'd prefer the Ford because it is bedirectional and can actually feed power back into my home when the grid is down, but would prefer the Chevy because they say it will be offered as a 2500 and then I could lose my trusty but expensive to run Duramax.

Finally, dams and windmills. I am part owner of a dam on a 53 acre pond and if there were a power line close enough to hook 3 phase into it would be a perfect sistuation ...but there isn't. This means that myself and my neighbor are fully responsible for the maintenance and liabilty of this dam. It is worth it because ofthe pristine and very private nature of our shared pond, but I wouldn't recommend it for most. We have to get it inspected by the DES every four years and should they ever find a deficiency we are on the hook for it.
I can also see the Rumney windmills from my hilltop home site and while I like what I see right now, I really don't want to see any more.

It is my opinion that the best solution in everyway for our need for energy, both locally and on the grand scale, is efficiency improvements and localized solar with energy storage. The batteries are the key and the progress since Elon Musk came alone and said to the world, "yes we can", has been astonishing. I do takethe time to contact out public reps every now and again and plead the case for moving the State and Federal incentives off solar generation and into energy storage, but so far it has been a case of shouting into the wind. Maybe someday...