I've already explained the main reason why kayakers are not getting getting hit by powerboats - it's because most are staying off the main lake - because they don't feel safe out there with boats traveling at high speeds. Basically padders have been pushed off the larger bodies of water in NH.

Island Life brought up a good point: I tried to explain this last year on this same forum - compared with other lakes, winni has a very small percentage of kayakers. And, from my own personal experience very few ever venture out of the coves or away from the shore very far - hardly any go on out on the main lake.

I've personally talked with a number of marine patrol officers, and guess what? The all were in favor of having a speed limit. And guess why? So that they would have something concrete to enforce. I was told that it's really hard to prove reckless operation, and it's not that easy to catch someome breaking the 150' rule (and even harder to prove).

Ok, so why are we letting 10-15% of the boaters keep others from feeling safe on our lakes?

I've brought this up many times: From the perspective of a kayaker, who has spent time out on both lakes in the middle of the summer - Squam, NH's 2nd largest lake, feels much safer than Wnnipesaukee. And the proof is in the number of paddlers out on Squam. If a speed limit has no effect, then why does Squam have so many more paddlers?

Funny, the many that I have talked to are against it. Guess what? Even the director of Marine Patrol has publicly stated that it is not the answer.

Guess what? Marine Patrol who is already spread thin can go in search of the small percentage of speeders who probably aren't endangering anyone, but when needed for an emergency non-speed related situation they will take longer to respond, putting others at risk.

Let's put a registration law in place for all kayaks, canoes, etc to help fund this resource sucking monster which you are trying to create. I am sure the complaints will fly then... I have always found it ridiculous that power boaters end up footing the bill for all while the paddlers get a free ride.

What free ride? Paddling happens to be a real work out - rent a kayak sometime and I'll take you out on a lake and show you how much of free ride it is.

There's a couple of pretty good reasons: The marine patrol doesn't spend much time chasing down kayakers who are breaking laws. And kayakers are not polluting our public waters.

But I personally would have no problem with a reasonable registration fee for my kayak (and I've stated that before) - but I would then expect to be able to park in public boat launch areas, that are currently only open to trailers.

I was clearly talking about money. Registrations.

And I have tried it. I prefer my boats to have engines. Not because I am lazy or opposed to exercise, because I do not get enjoyment from paddling around. I am not downing it, or downing those that do it, its just not my taste. I prefer grabbing a dozen or so friends and family and heading out for an afternoon or evening cruise.

As are you I am passionate about boating, just a different type. I grew up on the water, my family is well tied into the boating industry. I own 4 boats + 2 pwc and spend countless hours on the lake. I am on the lake before ice out is declared in the spring and boat until the week of ice-in in the winter. Call me crazy but it was quite fun to see the looks on peoples faces Saturday when I boated down the Weirs Channel during the Derby.

Unfortunately hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent each year trying to find people that die in Canoe and Kayak related accidents. Usually caused by their own doing not speed of other boats.

One such accident caused the start of this bill in MA. http://www.vse.cape.com/~harborm/cih...smissing2.html

A quote from this bill:

The Firestone tires on Ford Explorers killed 200 people in rollovers between 1993 and 2002. During that same period, canoes and kayaks took a thousand US victims.**

I was only trying to make a joke (which is not something that I am very good at - sorry).

I do respect your type of preferred boating - and I have nothing at all against most powerboaters (just the ones that scare me). I just prefer kayaking, and I love the workout (I'm a bit hyper). I'm on the water in April just as soon as the ice is off in my area and I have kayaked well into November. I paddled over 500 miles over the past two years - so I also spend a great deal of time on the water.

I did address the registration idea in my last post - in all fairness a registration fee for non motorized boats should be a very small fee, since we have a much smaller impact, as far as any costs go.

Why bother????
 

I have to hand it to you for staying in the fight, Evenstar, but I don't know why you bother. I get what you're saying and completely agree - really fast boats are scary to kayakers because you don't know if there will be enough time for them to react once they finally see you. But you're never going to change the minds of most of these people.

Everyone enjoys the Lake in their own way. Personally, I do enjoy speeding around in my boat once in a while (it's an old beater and probably can't top 45 or so on a good day). When I'm doing that, though, my experience is more about going fast and being outdoors with the wind through my hair; the fact that I'm on the lake is - for me - almost secondary at these times. But the Lake . . . the Lake I soak into my soul every day when I paddle quietly around the island, sit on my dock at night, listen to the loon, fish. These are the experiences I couldn't live without. I was a more serious paddler a few years back and I know how important it can be to your entire being to be out there, powering yourself through the water swiftly and gracefully. It's addictive. And people who don't do it, don't get it. And they have little idea of what the Lake looks like from that perspective - and what might be a rational or irrational fear.

I've spent part of every summer of my life on the Lake. So did my dad, and his dad, and his dad. And oh yeah, his dad too. Same place. 120 years. Call me old-fashioned, but I just don't get the whole performance boat thing. But, obviously, some people do - that's okay. We have to put up with them, and they have to put up with us. Don't let them bully you, tell you you're a hazard or try to drive you away to another lake. And for godsake, don't give them any more fodder for their rude comments about your body. Grow up boys, those comments say a lot about you as people.

Keep on paddling, Evenstar. We'll be watching out for you.

Island Life has it almost right.... but the real winner IMHO is Silver Duck. The problem is not with "fast boats" or "slow boats". It's with the people that own and drive either. The real problem is Captain Bonehead.

How many times have we all looked at posts here that showed some drunk landing his boat on an island?

How many times have we all seen a boat load of people more intent on having a floating "party" rather than having any concern for the other boaters on the lake?

How many times have we all seen someone towing a tube or skier that is not looking forward.. but instead watching at the "towie'?

I'm not for the speed limit...I've seen many a "Fast Boat" acting perfectly respectful of other boats. Admit it.. we all have. I am very much in favor of VERY STRICT enforcement for the rules that exist. I would also like to see a massive increase in the fines.. including revocations for violaters.

The lake is a wonderful awe inspiring place. We are all very blessed to have a chance to use it. Those who make the choice to abuse the rules that are in place to protect fellow users, and protect the lake need to be thrown off the lake.

Evenstar has as much right to be on the lake as the anyone else.. as long as she follows the rules. Fast Boats have as much right to be on the lake.. as long as they follow the rules.

We don't need to get rid of either slow boats or fast boats... we need to rid the lake of Captain Bonehead!

Why bother, indeed?
 

True enough: nobody's seen any statistics on breaking Winnipesaukee's speed limit. :rolleye2:

OK: You're old-fashioned. :)

Looks like you missed the GFBL with the name "Crowd Pleezah" on its flanks blasting by. Whom were they kidding?

:eek: Beware the Winnipesaukee sailor setting the World's Record for windsurfers! :eek:

Boating-to-excess' answer to Lake Winnipesaukee's smaller boaters is eminent domain?.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Evenstar, let the State proceed with the will of the voters—many of whom won't accept the risks imposed by boating's status quo on Lake Winnipesaukee.

Nor I. My boat has never been over 50 in Winnipesaukee (not enough power) and we typically cruise at 28 to 32 MPH. I find high performance boats a bit too one dimensional for my needs and too expensive for my budget.

I've spent countless hours in human powered boats and have never once feared power boats. The worst I've dealt with is excessive wakes from boats going too slowly. Winnipesaukee is wonderful for boating of all types. There's far more courtesy there than in many other places I've been.

Being a part-time paddler, I cannot imagine why anyone would ever want to paddle in big open areas of lake, even if there's not a single power boat in sight. It's much more fun to meander along the shore in areas where propeller driven craft hit rocks. That said, I'm not slamming people for wanting to paddle out in the open; like high performance boats, I just don't get it.

The lake is for EVERYBODY.... But like any resource there are certain times its easier for some to enjoy than others.

I can understand Evenstar's position, when your the small guy, you gotta wonder if the big guys see you bobbing in the water. The reality is, although you have the right to be on the lake whenever and wherever you want, safety and prudence should dictate when/where you go. I have the RIGHT to ride a bike in downtown Boston during rush hour, but it probably isn't the smartest thing to do. Paddling around Govenors Is. mid-week isn't all that bad, although certainly there is more boat traffic mid-week near Govenor's Is. due to the proximity to the Weirs. Go up to Winter Harbor or Moultonborough Bay and there is very little boat traffic! Paddling around Govenor's Is. on a busy summer saturday is absolutely NUTS! Its not because the boats are going too fast... thats pretty much not possible because there are just too many boats.

Even though the 12-16 weekends a year are very busy, statistically speaking the lake is VERY SAFE for ALL! There have been ZIP/ZERO/NADA accidents involving a collision between two watercraft since August 2002 (We all know that accident). There have been ZIP/ZERO/NADA accidents since 2002 that have occured at a speed GREATER THAN 45MPH! In fact most personal injury accidents were the result of falling within the boat. A stronger argument could be made for banning waterskiing and wakeboarding... (there was a wakeboarding fatality) and canoes and kayaks (numerous drownings).

Woodsy

Hear Hear!!!!!
 

ABSOLUTELY!!!! I would be all for more DUI boating laws.... open container while underway and such!

Keep any and all types of people, boats and personal freedoms. Crack down on Education and Alcohol consumption while driving!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

...is this a gender issue?
 

"Men like to step on the gas, and women like to step on the brakes," according to Woody Harrelson's character, Roy Munson, in the 1996 movie KINGPIN.
Last year, HB62 was passed by the NH house but lost in the senate by four votes and this year it will probably become law due to the november election changes. Five Republican gentlemen senators were beat out by five lady Democratic senator candidates.
All the proponents in the Citizen article above, Sandy Helve from WinnFabs, as well as Senator Katherin Sgambati and Senator Deborah Reynolds are all women.
So, do you think there's any truth to Roy Munson, that broken thumbed former bowlng champion from KINGPIN when he say's "men like to step on the gas, and women like to step on the brakes"?

da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da (theme from 1975 movie JAWS here) da-a-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da!

You know, I never thought I'd ever see any wisdom coming from that (hilarious) movie, but yeah, it's true for the most part. There are notable exceptions though...

I have little faith in common sense, voters, and law makers and fully expect to see a speed limit on the lake, eventually. Fortunately, it really won't affect most folks, surely not me. I hope those that have fast boats let common sense prevail and continue to adhere to the safe passage law, but safely ignore a new speed law. That said, I would expect widespread contempt for all boating laws if the MP really focuses on enforcing speed limits. Wouldn't that be ironic?

...linked to DMV?
 

Last year's bill had a boat speeding ticket linked to one's NH Dept Motor Vehicles driving record. So, get one ticket and you lose your insurance, good driver, discount. Get two tickets, and the big companies like Progressive, Allstate, Geico, & State Farm shove you off to an affiliated high risk pool company. All way more expensive than the original $88.(?) ticket itself, and hang around for three years. I know, I found out the hard way.

Have seen two that definitely were traveling faster than 45 mph - they tend to prefer venturing out when the wind is really blowing - not exactly fair-weather sailors.

The will of the voters or the will of the political elite?

Codeman this is bordering on creepy...with all due respect..stop please...you're turning this "forum" into another kind of "forum" and enough is enough. Thank-You.

Wow...Bravo! Couldn't have said it better if I tried!:patriot:

Do people have no sense of humor? Obviously not you...

Why don't you comment on the topic at hand instead of harrassing me for making a lighthearted comment in line with a joke that was already running with a few other posters. I am sure you must be able to come up with something better than "Wow...Bravo!"

After a little vacation the speed limit debate is back. Seems like everyone is taking their same old positions. A few of the "speed limit only" posters are beginning to file back in. There may even be a few newbies, who haven't heard all the arguements before.

Does it make sense to hash all this over again? Too bad there isn't a short FAQ or primer to help out the newbies. I can't imagine anyone from the previous debates will be turned around by any of the old arguements.

The big difference this year is that the Democrats control the state goverment. So a different outcome is possible and I hate to say it, but probable.

Luckly, I've never owned a boat that could exceed 45 MPH, I don't even think I've been on a boat capable of that speed. Hopefully, my luck will continue and they'll come after someone else next and not me.

I thought Codeman was a lecherous old man . . . now I realize he's 9.:rolleye2: :rolleye2: :rolleye2:

But Fish & Game expends lots of time, money and resources trying to find missing or drowned kayakers and canoeists.... I would love to know what the bill was for the search for the kayaker that drowned during the Alstead flood....

Woodsy

Your post probably doesn't warrant a response but I will do so anyway. No, I am not a lecherous old man, nor am I 9. I made a joke which did not seem to bother Evenstar anywhere as much as it did unrelated posters. If it did she is welcome to PM me and I will apologize however I will not apologize publicly for injecting a bit of humor into a serious discussion. Judging by other responses some people were able to comprehend a bit of humor and rolled with it. Judging by the responses of Evenstar I think it rolled off just fine, in fact she answered with a bit of humor back at me.

This is a serious matter and should be taken so as it will affect many people, boaters, paddlers, businesses, etc.. But let's keep it real, we all share this wonderful body of water together and need to find a solution to get along. Hopefully we all will have something to smile about at the end of this.

Back to the topic at hand:

As much as I hate the thought of it and am opposed to it I do believe that this time around the Winnfabbs crew may get what they asked for. What will be funny though is a year from the decision and implementation of it the "I told ya so" 's that will be flying when things do not change. There will still be close calls, there will still be BWI, there will still be many unexperienced uneducated boaters roaming the lakes, and there still be overcrowding. Other than a few speeding tickets issued which will not offset the costs involved what will really change?

Ahhh...
 

So, with all the back and fourth of speed limit, no speed limit - kayak vs. "GFBL", blah blah... think about this. Have you ever watched, say a 38' performance boat at 60 mph drive past and a 38' floating condo (cruiser) drive past at 20mph? Can someone describe the difference in the resulting wake? Don't bother - I will! Performance boat, 'bout the same as a ski / wakeboard boat. Cruiser -'bout the same as what hits Oahu's north shore in season - huge!! Wreaks havoc on boats tied to docks, sea walls (or if you prefer lake / retaining walls), and is a sand castle killer for the kids on the beach, my little guy will testify to that! ;) Now, same scenario when you are out and about in, say a kayak - Performance boat wake from a few hundred feet away, 'bout 12" - 15" (inches). Cruiser wake from same distance, 'bout 3' - 4' (feet) plus - better hang on! You have a statistically better chance of getting run down in your canoe or kayak by something OTHER than a performance boat on our lake for several reasons. Mostly for the simple fact it is just a law of averages... there are way more of all the other kinds out there and less of the GFBL type! Additionally, most of those "other" boats are (typically) less expensive, thus more accessible to the masses and thus more of them on the water, case-in-point - lake lice, or PWC's if you will. Cheap to buy, nothing to regulate their operation, lots of them out there! Now, take into consideration the cost to purchase and run a high performance boat - not going to find one of these tied to every other dock. It takes a decent amount of experience and skill just to run these at an "average" speed of say 35 mph, never mind a higher speed - as well as deep pockets! I know LOTS of owners of these types of boats, and all started behind the wheel of a boat when they were young and grew into the big performance boat, none have just bought one to get into boating for the first time. With the responsibility of ownership comes the forethought of "water on the water, beer on the pier" (thanks to PRA mag's Mr. Taylor for that one ;o). So, you will typically not find the "Dude, where are all the beers" guy driving the performance boat - he (or she as I know a couple of them too) has too much to loose, and enjoys the sport way too much to do something stupid - like that. They are into the fun of it and vested heavily, they love what they have the freedom to do and appreciate it very much! They respect the machine and all it can do, and in return are typically VERY conscientious and safe boaters. Are they ALL like this, no - of course not - but every bushel has a bad apple or two, but again - just the law of averages. And to be blunt and honest - lets face it, there is a socioeconomic factor that comes into play here, with expensive toys typically comes higher incomes - so save for the occasional yahoo that hits the lotto, there is a very good chance that whom ever is behind the wheel of that "GFBL" worked hard to get there, and is not out to throw it all away by making some sophomoric mistake. I bet of you did a survey of the "rules of the lake" you'd get 99% of the GFBL guys to nail 'em, and about 50% - if you're lucky - of the rest of the boaters to get about 50% right.

Listen, at the end of the day - I love to go out in a Kayak, they are a blast - but before 9:00 am and NOT in the main areas of the lake, let's be realistic here. I also own a "GFBL" too - and have owned several while on this lake, (been on here since I was 10 mo. old) and consider myself a very alert and responsible boater! Face it, things change, times change we are not watching B&W TV's, driving Pinto's and a 16' boat is no longer "the average". Technology has changed, incomes have grown and people work hard for their money these days, and like to play hard (and smart ;o) - it is up to them what type of boat they want to buy, and it is also up to them to operate it in a responsible manner for the benefit of everyone around them. The lake is here for EVERYONE to enjoy - I don't care of you own a canoe or a 40' GFBL that does (over 45 mph). It is all about boating smarter NOT slower - common courtesy and common sense need to prevail along with boater ed. (and certification, yeah I got mine...) and we'll ALL have a better, safer and happier lake to enjoy with our families! :cool:

Oh yeah...
 

And we own a house ON the water, pay our taxes and totally respect what is our favorite place to spend our free time - along with our 22 mo. old son, the lake! :)

DoTheMath, Interesting post. I agree with most of it. I think kayakers would probably prefer the big wake. Canoeists may have a different POV though. I know I prefer fast boats when I'm in my canoe. I suspect big cruisers will be the next target after GFBLs are outlawed. There are already lakes down south where big cruisers and GFBL boats are not allowed now.

Waiting for the speed limit crowd to jump all over the Littlefield exception... Ought to be entertaining since his actions contrast perfectly with your thoughts and observations of typical GFBL operators. I suspect the "bad apple" statement won't be enough to hold 'em back.

I spent a weekend on the CT River last Summer. There IS A 45 MPH SPEED LIMIT on that river so you know it's got to be a haven for paddlers... WRONG! Other than the ICW in NJ, it was the most unsafe boating I have ever experienced. Still had a great time though, just had to be vigilant about other boaters who seemed clueless about proper operation.

Coming from NJ , I can honestly say you people have no problem at all:cool:
And as crazy and insane as it is on the weekends (in Jersey) , our safety record is VERY good.

Just having a little joke with KonaChick and hoping she's one-tough-New-Hampshire-woman who is not deterred by your rude and "off-topic" response to her post:

By the way, KonaChick, thanks.

Pleeeeeease
 

Island Life & Konachic:

I am sorry that each of you were apparently offended by some of the comments in this thread. Codeman, myself and Evenstar were simply enjoying a little good natured banter. I don't think anyone crossed the line, so please don't take our comments too seriously. Remember, we are talking about recreational boating, not bypass surgery! Life is short and I for one don't want to die with a scowl on my face and you ladies shouldn't either.:liplick: :liplick: :liplick:

SC: I was not offended by the borish bikini jokes. But notice, Evenstar has not been back.

A more careful read of my last post shows, rather, that I didn't like the way one forum member made fun of another forum member's positive and appreciative comment. It reminded me of something a little kid would do; the only thing missing was the word "duh.":laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


If I were a thin-skinned person, such a judgmental response to one of my posts might keep me from posting again. I was merely lending my support to KC and hoping she's not a thin-skinned person and we'll keep hearing from her.

No scowl on this face.;)

My response was to two back to back posts by KC, one which was directly slamming me. Can we all just move on? This is getting a bit too melodramatic for my taste. Bravo to SC for trying to put this behind us, can we PLEASE move on now before the real topic gets shut down?

Damn this is going to be a long winter...Any signs of ice out?:rolleye2:

Attn: Windsurfers...Wind's Up!
 

Agreed that windsurfers pick the windiest days, but it's odd that you think that windsurfers are traveling as fast as 45 mph. The world's record is 46 knots, and is regularly attempted at one of only two sites: Australia and Port St. Louis, France.

The waves at both locations are minimal due to a low, protective, berm of sand. The waves that slow these craft are kept down, whereas the wind remains the same.

You'll appreciate this French invitation to windsurf in 75 knot hurricane winds :eek: : http://www.internationalwindsurfing....29&newsid=1026

What speed was the 4-ton Formula going that flipped and sank in Tuftonboro waters in 2005?
What speed was the 4-ton Cigarette going that flipped and sank in 2004?
What speed was the 5-ton Fountain going that flipped and sank in Chestnut Cove in 2003?
What speed was the 5-ton boat going that flipped and sank in 1998?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm? :confused:

Who knows...perhaps comparable to the investigation into that boat (that must have been going at pretty high speed) that crashed into I think it was Eagle Island last year? The one driven by teenagers if i recall correctly. :)

Crownline cruiser
 

How "high" is pretty high ? The boat was a Crownline cruiser whose top speed is about 48 mph. Too high for drunk teenagers but do we want drunk teenagers setting the standard for what the rest of us can and can't do ?

I care to disagree.....
 

Sorry KC, got to call you on this one. Not much of an investigation in that incident. The primary factor in that accident was alcohol. Speed was not a factor. If you are trying to fan the fire on the speed limit issue, use facts not assumptions or embellishments.

Speed was a factor, he should have been under 6 mph when he crashed.

What he should have been, quite simply, was not drunk. :eek:

Seems to me that there already is a law to cover that situation.

Perhaps you overlooked that minor detail... :laugh:

Ok I will ask.....
 

Why was he supposed to be at 6 mph? Because he was within 150 ft of shore? That is correct, however he was Supposed to be SOBER, and he wasn't supposed to be out in mom and dads boat with out permission. Try all you want to make that accident about speed. Its not, its about sobriety and lack of respect for all laws. I would like to see a report from MP that attributes the incident to speed. Then I will recant my position.