I see your points Bear Islander, but I still say that an occasional doggie present is no worse than:

1. the rainbow covered slick on the water I have to swim through behind my neighbors boats.
2. mcmansion mclawn mcfertilizers.
3. whatever the bears, deers and other critters are doing in the lake and on the shore.
4. whatever the birds hanging out by the pier do in the water.

Petroleum and fertilizer contamination of water are a problem, but again, they have not caused any beaches to be closed down on Winni. But what is your argument here? Other people pollute so its OK if my dog craps in your drinking water? Not really a viable excuse!

The feces of wild animals also contain coliform but what makes you think they are leaving them at the lakes edge? An animal may deposit them anywhere but dogs are led to the waters edge by their owners, sometimes by a chain. It is the concentration in one area that causes bacteria levels to rise above what is considered safe.

Beaches and waterfront parks do not prohibit dogs because they don't like dogs. It's because of the concentration of sources for coliform bacteria.

...not just that, but why would you and the family WANT to frequent a beach that's full of doggie landmines?

If dog owners were more responsible to pick up after Fido when he goes, then this wouldn't be an issue...

That's my point. A permit, log in, something is better than nothing. And we always pick up all the poo we see even if it wasn't our dogs that left it.

Interesting Debate
 

Let me start by saying I love dogs, I've had dogs. However, there are many people out there who do not share our love of dogs. There are also many people who have a phobia concerning dogs. At a public beach/boat launch those people should not be subjected to dogs. I'm sure there are dog parks and plenty of places where dogs are welcome.

Looking at it from the perspective of health and safety it is not a good idea for dogs to be in that area. Besides It is only a matter of time before somebody sues somebody or the town for a dog bite or an owner suing when his fido is killed by a boater.

I think the solution would be a Designated Dog Swim Area. Not to lobby against opening a Boat Launch to dog swimming.

An EPA-ordered study makes me think so
 

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...73280638302418

Also, this snippet from a Save the Harbor/Save the Bay report indicates children who wear diapers should be added to the list of potential sources of contamination.

"What causes beach closures?
The SAC explored the causes of beach closures and identified an
extensive list of potential sources of beach contamination. Sources
considered include combined sewer overflows (CSOs), stormwater,
untreated sewage from leaky pipes and illegal hookups that empty
into storm sewers, waste from recreational and commercial vessels,
and sediments contaminated by pathogens. Other sources, which
potentially impact beaches, include pet waste, sea and shore birds,
and dirty diapers on the beaches."

Let's face it, parents, whether they be of two-legged or four-legged children, who don't clean up after their children are problems. Of course, if you say anything against a two-legged child, you're verbally lynched. :devil:

My argument is that if the ban is a result of animal waste contaminating the water, then lets ban ALL the things that do. Are you insinuating that since petroleum and fertilizer haven't caused any beach closings then there ok to put in someone else's drinking water? Of course not. As you stated, other people polluting is not a viable excuse for you to do so.

As to beach closings, I personally find it hard to believe that the yearly beach closings are a only direct result of dog poo poo in the lake. While its certainly a contributing factor, I can't believe its the only cause. So again, if we're banning dogs from the lake, lets get rid of the other pollutants too.

I guess my point is its easy to stop the other guy from being the issue, until we are the other guy. I'd like nothing better then to never see a boat, vacationer or "summer resident" around the lake again, but they all have the same right to a good time as I do. Just as LilacHill's doggies have the same right to swim in the lake as people do (based on the fact that LilacHill's taxes help pay for the ramp upkeep, just like the residents with boats do).

Anywho, I'll agree to disagree with you and look forward to your rebuttal.

I don't think dogs are the reason for beaches being closed. Mostly because dogs are not allowed on beaches.

Dogs, failed septic systems and dirty beach diapers are all sources of coliform bacteria. Add what nature supplies from birds and other animals and you have unsafe water for drinking or swimming.

boat ramp
 

Do you live in Alton? If not I don't think you have any room to talk. As for the leashing and crating comments, what ever gave you the impression my dogs are ever off lead in public? Here's a news flash THEY AREN'T. As for the boat ramps they aren't busy at the time we go with the dogs which is the point. An as a matter of fact today there wasn't anyone even attempting to use the ramp which is the case most days we go.

A kiddie pool and sprinkler do not allow for water retrival training do they?[/QUOTE]

I do live in Alton Bay and very often use the public ramp instead of ours, as it is easier to utilize.

First, I AM A DOG LOVER..... however, I do agree with part of the rebuttles here. The ramp is not a place for the dogs and HAS caused problems at TIMES. It really isn't a good spot for dogs, kids or anyone else to the use and play on.

I am sure there was a reason for the new rule... and as the town goes... they don't have to ask for input from guests or property owners.

I know this sounds harsh.... I don't mean it to.... just think of it from others point of view.

I am SURE that there are MANY public places that you can go alternately for your terrier's enjoyment. As the forum... they will surely give you LOTS of idea's on safe places!

Another point of view
 

Part of it may be that SOME people are afraid of dogs. I love them.... but some HUMANS are terrified of dogs. Some of them might be ones making the rules!

You say that yours are terriers in an earlier post..... they are pit bull terriers. Some people are afraid of them BECAUSE of irresponsibly people that trained them inappropriately.

I know that there has been unfair treatment and I am sure that you don't like Breed Specific Legislation.... and not being able to get Home Owners Insurance from some companies.

HOWEVER, that is life. the GFBL boats don't like being singled out or banned either. It is life and unfortunately it happens to everyone at some point.

I think it would be a better use of time to search for another spot and fall in love with going there and except the situation.

Just my 2 cents

Not "keeping a proper watch"? :laugh:

Allowing a dog to swim in the lake is shared fun for dog and family. Summer fun is what it's all about. A yellow tennis ball tossed for Fido into the lake or a Frisbee toss, are a big part of summer on the lake for Labs and Retrievers, the most popular breeds of dogs today. I'm also reasonably certain that dogs don't poop while swimming.

Sharing the cruise with your dog seems like the right thing to do, too. But boaters who take long cruises also know that dogs refuse to poop while on board. Where else to let them take a "comfort break" than back at the boat ramp? Of course, you'd be expected to "pick up after".

Locals who let their dogs cool off need a space that's "public". A public boat ramp that is not in use is OK with me.

swimming on a leash?
 

If a dog is swimming at a public spot and you claim he is never in public without being on a lead, does that mean he/she swims with the leash on?

Yes. They are on a 15 foot line and that's because I'd rather lose a tennis ball toy than have to swim out to the middle of Alton bay after the dog!

As I said before the only time anyone is off lead it's Cuddles and she's in a down or a sit stay for picture taking ONLY. A tree could fall on this dog and she won't break a stay.

These were a week after almost losing her to Addison's disease. We celebrated by taking her to the lake. She went in once and was happy.

is this a conundrum
 

The town politicians, in their infinite wisdom, have chosen to specifically exclude dogs from the public boat ramp. That could mean that all other pet critters are allowed. My son's friend can bring his pet Boa Constrictor (with harness of course :laugh: ) to swim around at the ramp and near the beach? Pet Alligators or other exotic pets (legal pets of course). Is there an RSA or generally accepted policy covering that kind of logic? (Hey SKIP :) )

Lilac, are there any non-posted public water access spots in Alton for the dogs to use?

My K9 doesn't like to play in the water unless she can chase the ducks. She'll never catch one but she does help keep them away from the beach. No humans are in charge of cleaning up after the ducks and geese the way many of us clean up after our pets. Which would you rather have around, flocks of ducks, geese and seagulls or a well behaved and controlled dog?

BTW In Boston there is a pooper-scooper law. You must bag and properly dispose of all your dog's droppings. So far I have not heard of any of our fine policemen collecting the evidence from pooper-scooper violations :rolleye1:

Do they make swim diapers for dogs? They make some for real little kids to use in swimming pools or at the beach so why not allow properly diapered dogs? Even limit it to a few, low use, hours of the day. That might be an acceptable compromise if enough people feel as Lilac does.

http://www.seniorpetproducts.com/ima...s/ppd-ppnt.jpg or http://www.seniorpetproducts.com/ima...ondary/116.jpg

Hmmmmmmmmmmm you've hit on something here.......... According to this we can bring the horses down to the ramp OR beach for a swim if we wanted to but not the dogs. Ironic isn't it?

NO there are no non posted public lake access spots dogs can be on in town. Heck the only 2 people access spots are these two beaches!

Suggestion
 

The 2 big German Shepherds that the owner seems to have that are there off lead a LOT is enough deterrant for me.

Good Point
 

I am sure it wasn't your intention to do so but you just solidified the opposing viewpoint. If you are deterred from going to that boat ramp at downings due to dogs on the loose, how do you think non dog lovers feel about your dogs and anyone else's dog at a boat ramp?

Just a thought.

Downings is private property so his dogs can be off lead on his private propert if he so wishes. Alton has a leash law doesn't it? Dogs must bo on lead at all times unless in control of the owner such as voice or ecollar. Since the only one of my dogs ever off lead for maybe 10 minutes at a time and not within the past year actually, is Cuddles, I am obeying all leash laws.

Comparing Downings to the public boat ramp is apples and oranges.

So you actually have a choice, do you not? Your own boat launch or the public one? Nice to have that option, isn't it?

There are no other public places in Alton. The town can't even find property to fit into the town budget to put in a real beach area never mind these pocket parks for humans!

As I said before a permit to use the ramp is fine with me I'd pay it and wait like everyone else until all boats are in/out/gone. I do that anyway so no biggie wow.

Not my point
 

Never mind the location. My only point was that you stated that you were afraid to go where the dogs were off lead, am I correct?

You said that you would not go there because you felt unsafe. Ok so if that is the case I was only mentioning that you might know what it feels like when non dog lovers approach a PUBLIC boat ramp loaded with dogs. I know that you always use your lead but what you fail to recognize is that they can't just open up the ramp for your dogs. If it is open to all dogs they must then count on all the owners to leash their dogs. Not gonna happen. So what is the safe more cost effective way for the town to avoid this problem. Prohibit dogs from the BOAT launch, pretty simple IMHO. I'm not saying that I don't sympathize with you, unfortunately there are others who have ruined it for you. Those who chose to allow their dogs to run free.

Dogs and Water.
 

So if the local Constable won't enforce the already in place leash law who will enforce the no dogs law? This is kinda like the speed limit argument now!

Apples and oranges yet again. Downing's is private property? What part of that is so hard to grasp? As for the public boat launch I said the permit idea is a feasable one and it is.

I didn't have time to go down last week as we were getting ready for an open house in new construction. What a pain.

As for me using the boat ramp, what makes you think my dogs have been down there at all? If somone's using it it sure isn't us and I resent the fact you keep implying it is. If they aren't pit bulls they aren't us! And since my dogs' pictures are plastered all over the web pages in my signature you can verify that fact. This isn't the first time you have implied that I went ahead and broke the rule (note it isn't a LAW) about no dogs even after I stated more than once I took the dogs home and they DID NOT use itand that's just plain wrong on your part.

As for not using the public beach, I never ever had a problem with no dogs in the swim area and I never said I did. I think someone's twisting things to make it seem more of a problem than just using a public ramp my non boaters taxes help pay for.

As for your suggestion that the unsafe areas down by the fire station are a hunky dory place to let them swim, you go in first then we'll see.

I don't understand how a permit fee would do anything. Would it give you a license to let your dogs do whatever it is they do in the lake or on the ramp? Would it give you priority over all other uses of that "public" launch since you PAID for a privilege that others may not have? What would happen if every other dog owner/user of that ramp bought the same permit and all their dogs were licensed and privileged to use the ramp? Then the town is back to square one with dogs in the ramp area and the same problems that created the ban are still in place. Nope, I don't think a Puppy Playing/Pooping Permit is the answer. Accept the fact that the rules have changed and dogs are no longer allowed in the ramp area. JMHO

I disagree. In my opinion (both experiential and research/reading), almost all dogs could benefit from crate training. I'm not saying if you don't crate train, you won't have successful training....I am saying it's a GREAT way to go, for you and for the dog.

Point still missed
 

Here we go:

You said: "The 2 big German Shepherds that the owner seems to have that are there off lead a LOT is enough deterrant for me."

You are deterred from going somewhere due to the fact that there are dogs roaming free. You fear for your safety and that of your dog(s). Is this or is this not correct?

I said: "If you are deterred from going to that boat ramp at downings due to dogs on the loose, how do you think non dog lovers feel about your dogs and anyone else's dog at a boat ramp?"

Regardless of the location, public, private, the beach, spain, the moon, whatever you are afraid to go there. So now lets go back to the boat ramp. There are owners there with unleashed dogs including yourself: "..Since the only one of my dogs ever off lead for maybe 10 minutes at a time.."

I was merely asking you to look at this from the point of view of someone who does not like dogs. They my be deterred from going to the ramp because they are fearful of the unleashed dogs. You yourself said you wouldn't go somewhere because of 2 German Shepherds running around. You fail to see that people at a public boat ramp might look at your dog in the same light that you view the German Shepherd. I know that seems impossible because you think your dog is the most gentle wonderful docile creature in the world. I know as a dog owner we can become blind to anyone who feels otherwise.

As to comparing this to the speed limit debate?!?!?!?! We are talking about having to legislate against people using a BOAT RAMP for DOG SWIMMING. Not legislating how fast you can put your boat in or boat ramp etiquette or boat launching safety or boats tied to the ramp. I do/did sympathize but I'm starting to lean to the too bad so sad side. All suggestions and comments here seem to be met with a real sour attitude.

Regardless of the location, public, private, the beach, spain, the moon, whatever you are afraid to go there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Uh NO. I am not afraid to go there at all. Do I think it would be a good idea? Absolutely NOT. Being that Downing's is PRIVATE PROPERTY if those dogs and mine got into something mine would be at fault because DOWNING'S IS PRIVATE PROPERTY. As I said comparing public property to private is apples to oranges. Besides isn't this the place where property owners come to vent about people treating their private property as public? And here you are telling someone to do just that.

As to my dog off leash, a down stay or a sit stay to take pictures is the same as patrolling a parking lot or being off lead in the water how? And FYI 9 times out of 10 when Cuddles was off lead for pics there was never anyone else around anyway at the beach, launch, or park.

Again do you live in Alton? If not then your taxes pay for a boat launch somewhere else. A permit and a log in such as a burnng permit would tell whoever is at the town office what dogs were there at what time of day etc. It would be enough deterrant for those not cleaning up after their dogs to be watched by those that do. Again I did not say for the dogs to be on the grassy beach area or near the swim area. The boat ramp is used by maybe a half dozen people at most. If it can't be worked around by dog owners and boaters alike (with the boats taking priority) what does that say about people in general? Not much apparently. I guess certain uses for public access far outweight others. Besides the fact that A LOT of the use the ramp gets isn't even from Alton folks. Ironic isn't it?

So now, with your method, there will be administrative costs to the town to monitor the permits and answer the phone when you log in. What about weekends? Will the town have somebody on call for log in whenever your poochies want a dip or a photo op? Great. Oh, no problem. Your permit fee will cover the administrative costs! How much should the permit cost? $5.00? $10.00? $20.00? Here is an idea. If you have town dog registrations, suggest that every registration be increased in price to cover the administrative costs of your permit/log in theory. That way, every registered dog owner will help pay the freight for a few.

To answer your question, no, I do not live in Alton, although I have used that "dog" ramp to launch my boat in the past. Where I live, the ramps are maintained either by the power company or Fish and Game.

?????
 

Wow Lilac this is way way more difficult than it has to be. Somebody else please jump in and help me out here because this is getting exhausting. I'll try again for the last time then I give up.

OK, seriously I had no intentions of getting into this debate. I for one LOVE dogs, love, love, love them. I have owned them, grew up around them, enjoyed them my whole life. I used to look at people who avoided my gorgeous, flawless, wonderful, Golden Retriever as freaks. I mean who the heck were THEY to treat my child, my buddy as a second class citizen. They were the ones with the problem, not me. Anyway, with that said, I would NEVER, EVER, EVER tell anyone at downings what to do on their own property, neither would you. That is not what I intended or implied you should do.

YOU SAID: I will paraphrase: You wouldn't go somewhere because of some dogs off lead.

I SAID: That is how some people feel about your dogs or anyone else's dogs that may be off lead somewhere.

I recommended that you should apply that logic to how folks might disagree with your stance that Public Boat Launches should be dog friendly assuming that folks would abuse the leash law. We can assume this because people do abuse this law as agreed to by almost everyone here.

I am done explaining this as people are probably bored with this. Good luck and I hope you find someplace to allow your pooch to swim freely.

Give up
 

Hazelnut,I've given up with this one.You can't discuss issues when someone already has their mind made up.The question was posed and if the poster didn't like the answer then you were ostrasized for not being a resident or if you used their own words to argue a point,YOU were not reading it right.I see 3 examples of the latter in this thread.Don't bother.While I have no problem with a controlled dog at a ramp,in my opinion this poster has actually hurt their own argument with their rebuttals.

I was more leaning towards the comparison that it seems we've added a new rule/law (speed limit on lake, no dogs on boat ramp) to compensate for an existing unenforced rule/law (150' safe passage, dogs on leash). I hate when a new requirement is added for the sake of compensating for an unenforced existing one. The way I see it, if you show up at the ramp and someones dogs off lead, ask them to put it on. If they don't, call the cops. If the cops don't come, run the dog over (since the cops not coming anyway :laugh: ).

But it also seems I'm in the minority here so I raise the white flag!

Dogs on leashes soil the land and water the same way as dogs on the loose.

A dog on a leash is just as much in violation as a loose dog if it is in the restricted area. The sign says "No Dogs," not "No Loose Dogs," so telling someone on the ramp to leash up their dog isn't solving the problem.

This whole thread is about perceived entitlements, in that a taxpayer has a right to use any public property in any way they choose. Could the skateboarders drag a half pipe to the ramp because they have no place to go and their parents are taxpayers? Could tax paying artisans set up easels on the ramp because they have no place to paint? Could some taxpaying campers set up a tent and campfire next to the ramp because they want to be near the water and they don't want to pay camping fees? Of course not because it is a public BOAT RAMP, not for mixed use at the whim of any taxpayer who has individual wants and needs. It all comes down to common sense.

OK, I'll put the flag away for that one. The issue is that dogs used to be allowed, and now they aren't. We're all speculating as to why, as no one has gone and checked. My comment about the dogs on leash, had you bothered to read the hole thread, was in response to those speculating the rule was based on loose dogs. My comments about doggie doo doo in the water were in response to speculation that was the cause. I don't remember ever saying it was ok for your dog on a leash to go potty in the lake. Or even that it was ok for the doggie to poo in the lake in the first place.

I'd venture a guess that if something you enjoyed doing, and had been able to do until now, was suddenly taken away from you, you might feel the same way. Perceived entitlements are a wonderful thing, when they're yours and not someone else's.

Try an ounce of common sense yourself.


Flags back up.

Sir, I am sorry if you felt my comments were directed at you. If they were, I would have quoted your post, as I have done here in this post.

I have read the whole thread several times. The original poster said that her dogs were leashed almost all the time and the issue of leashed/not leashed had been spoken about by others. My comments about same were generic. At no time did I accuse you or anyone else of allowing their dog to defecate in the lake.

I agree that apparently nobody has sought an explanation from the town office, but I would venture that the response would be short and not subject to conditions or rebuttal.

Finally, I have had many things taken away/changed/realigned in my life and I have accepted those I could not change and learned to live with them. That was then, this is now.

As a final thought, I am not sure if you are agreeing with my statement about perceived entitlements. I believe that is what started this entire thread.

OK, my common sense just kicked in.:rolleye2:

Thanks Nightwing, I can't even remember what my point was again. :confused:

I feel LilacHill's pain as some day I too may have only the local boat ramp to let my dog swim at, and I'd hate to loose it.

Somehow the poop discussion changed to "do dogs poop in the lake?". However if the dog poops near the lake it will end up in the lake unless someone picks it up. In the picture several posts back a dog is sitting on a grassy area behind a retaining wall. Any poop in that grassy area will be in the lake next time it rains.