I have heard a rumor that the kayaker was naked??? Anyone else hear this? I was told that it was mentioned on WOKQ this morning.

You have got to be kidding me...A naked white butt, although it may be visible up to two miles away is no replacement for a white navigation light. :laugh:

Yes. You should be able to find compatible lights in any boat catalog or boat part store. Some of them are plain and some are fancy. I changed mine myself.

Good luck!

You are vindicated......saw it on channel 9 this a.m......sorry I doubted you.

[QUOTE=Silver Duck]
Actually, I can't wait for the MP to start enforcing the 25 mph night time limit on Wednesday. From what I've seen over the years, it should be easy pickings for them.

According to the Citizen the PILOT program will not be starting until later in August.

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...226/-1/CITIZEN

Story from Boston WCVB Boston online
 

MEREDITH, N.H. -- A kayaker from Vermont had a terrifying close call when a boat sliced his kayak in two on New Hampshire's Lake Winnipesaukee this weekend.

The Marine Patrol said Stephen Spitzer, 46, of Brattleboro, was kayaking around 1 a.m. Saturday when a 27-foot powerboat ran over him, cutting the front part of the kayak off.


Spitzer's kayak had no lights. No one was hurt.

What about the powerboater....
 

I am sure that the operator was TERRIFIED to see a kayak in front of him with no lights... I guess I just have a problem that the powerboater seems to be written up as the bad guy. We can all agree that all boaters have to keep a proper lookout, but a kayak out admittedly at night with no light! Again I think the article shouldn't have the slant that the boater is to blame. Shame on the kayak operator, and thank goodness no one was hurt. Why can't the article read A boater on lake winni had a terrifying close call when he struck a kayak at 1 am???? The kayaker was operating illegally with no lights, thankfully no one was injured.

Stephen Spitzer to earn a Darwin Awards Honorable Mention? I'm not trying to pick on the guy, but my 9 year old knows better then to be out after dark in a kayak with no lights.

There are some nice lights out there
 

I have to admit, I have been out on moonlit nights in the canoe with the lights off. I know I am taking a risk and sometimes do bonehead things every so often. But I try to hide in the shallows within 25 ft of shore and behind some large boulders for protection. There are a lot of nice portable lights out there for small craft and with the new LEDs they are very bright and use low power.

I have one that has both red and green led lights and a white stobe. Even though its made in China, its a great thing to have on board, even as a backup.

http://store.seattlesportsco.com/pro...&idproduct=139

The law requires "proper" lighting for the type of vessel it is displayed on. Neither red/green nor a strobe light are proper lighting for your boat.

portable lights
 

NightWing said:Nightwing: Are you saying that portable lights are not legal?? If I have a dead battery and I use portable r/g light afixed to my bow and a white portable afixed to my stern then I am not legal? Why wouldn't these be proper? I wasn't aware of this.

I beleive nightwing was referring to a canoe or kayak in the quote. The red/green on the bow and all around white above the red/green are appropriate for a power driven boat and sailboat under auxilliary power.

Pix on WMUR last nite
 

On the 11pm news last nite there was a pic of the offending kayak. It wasn't cut in half actually,more like a couple feet lopped off one end. The passenger compartment looked intact. It looked in the pic like it was just a one passenger kayak.

LED lites
 

Overton's and West Marine both have replecement LED lights for red, green and white marker lights. They are advertised as many times brighter than regular marker lights.
heres an example:
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...&classNum=null

I didn't say that portable lights are not legal. I said that the light unit described did not represent proper lighting for his canoe.

A canoe need display a white light that is visible for 360° around the horizon for 2 miles. That is the requirement for a manually powered vessel. Red and green are navigation lights for a power boat. In no case is a white strobe light considered proper lighting.

As a point of interest, those short, suction cup mounted white lights are not adequate because they do not show above the operator and therefore are not visible for 360° around the horizon. If you must use one, mount it on a pole and keep fresh batteries on hand.

The act of gliding along in the dark with your fanny at water level in an unlit boat is absolutely insane. If you want to stargaze in the dark, do it from shore. If you want peace and tranquility in dark water, run a bath and soak by candlelight. The chances of getting run over by a 300 horsepower meat cleaver on shore or in your tub are very small indeed.

I almost hit a canoe operated by a husband and wife several years ago. The canoe was dark green to blend in with everything. They were wearing dark clothing and were crossing a river, perpendicular to shore. Pitch dark, no moon, nothing to indicate they were there. They didn't even call out as a warning, just kept paddling along to cross right in front of me.

When I finally saw them, they were probably 5 feet in front of me. I slammed into reverse so fast I took half the river over the transom. They looked at me and continued to paddle to shore.

I won't go into great detail about what happened after, but I gave them a verbal Boating Ed lesson that they probably heard in the next county.

They didn't even have the decency to offer bathroom tissue so I could clean up..................................:rolleye2:

Don't drive a boat at night without proper lights.....................please.

Should naked boaters have "flashing" stern lights?
 

I think you're confusing what is appropriate with the "minimum required by law"

Per the Boat-ed website for NH:

If less than 23.0 feet (7 meters) long, these vessels should:

If practical, exhibit the same lights as required for unpowered vessels less than 65.6 feet in length. (Mink Islander: meaning have the typical required lighting of bow lights and white stern light that you see on a sailboat)
If not practical, have on hand at least one lantern or flashlight shining a white light as shown in Figure 3.

Of course the rules may be different if you're butt naked in your vessel -- or perhaps should be. Maybe a "flashing" white light would be appropriate after all.....

stern lights
 

You raise a great point about the height of stern lights. I replaced the one on my old whaler Montauk two years ago because the one it came with (used), was only a couple feet higher than the gunwales and just higher than the top of the center console. Legal, but barely, I suspect. Problem is that my boat has a dodger that when raised, was nearly as high as the center console and I was concerned that my stern light was not visible from the front in all situations. So I replaced it with a 4 ft one.

I saw a small boat this weekend whose stern light was not visible when approaching it head on. Made me think I made a good decision....

We have two canoes and four kayaks and we all have the stern and bow lights. They have the extention for 3'. Have had them for years, usually we don't use them as we are back in shore on time. However, if we have gone on an extended paddle, we toss them in, just in case we get back after dusk. I think in about ten years we've only had to use them maybe 3x. I agree kayaks are low in the water and sometimes hard to see but we love them. We usually stay pretty close within the 150' rule of land,(just so we don't conflict with power boats we choose to follow the shoreline mostly over rocks and shallower water) however we oftentimes have to cross over a bay and attempt to do it at it's narrowest point and usually pick a time when there aren't a parade of boats traveling through. I'm not going to blame everyone out there but I have to say, that even being within the 150' or a no wake zone with the canoe or kayak, we've had some scary moments with fast boats and large wakes ignoring the rules.

Lack of Lights after dark is a growing problem
 

I don't know if any of you feel the same way we do... my husband and I have both noticed an increased number of boats operating at night with either no bow lights or no stern light. It's beginning to get scary.

On Friday night, we drove from Meredith to the Weirs to watch the fireworks. A boat passed us that had no all-around light. As soon as we couldn't see the green light anymore, the boat vanished. With the lights ahead at the Weirs, my husband did all he could to keep track of where that boat went as he could barely make out the reflection of the boat's wake. He kept his eye on the boat's wake while I kept an eye out for the rest of the boat traffic.

Then on Sat night we went out for dinner on the lake and saw a jet boat doing donuts 30 ft from the docks and it had no stern light either. Fed up, we called the MPs and they did indeed come and stop the offending boat. They were caught some distance out from shore and were escorted back in. No sympathy here for the MPs ruining their evening. They could have ruined plenty more.

If a boat is out on the lake and loses it's lights, has no spare bulbs, or otherwise can't get them working, someone should shine a light on the boat so it can be seen with either a good flashlight or spot light... and NOT drive down the middle of the bay full sprint around other boats. UGH!

If they people in the kayak were truly without lights, they are lucky to be alive.

We were talking about canoes and kayaks.

Saf-C 403.16 Lights on Non-Power Boats.

(a) Boats propelled by oars, paddles or other human or natural device except sails, operated on any public water, shall, between sunset and sunrise, display one white light in a conspicuous position, so placed as to show all around the horizon.

Fish & WeirsBeachBoater

Sorry, I read the story about the delay after I posted. And, yes I'm aware that the limit is only in two areas of the lake.

As I've stated many times, I'm not in favor of a daytime speed limit, but a night time limit is a diferent story. I boat at night a lot, and my slip is close to the Lovejoy Sands public docks, so I get to see a great many boats going, IMHO, way too fast for the prevailing conditions (unless the operators somehow acquired Superman's X-ray vision! :D ).

I wouldn't at all mind having the MP slow a few folks down a bit after dark (personally, I never go on plane after dark and wouldn't unless there was a medical emergency aboard!)

By the way, does anybody know where the collision occurred (other than just "Meredith"?)

Silver Duck

A wayward swim raft would also have no lights.

Except for the length of his 27' boat, there's a lot we don't know about this operator. How fast would a big powerboat need to be travelling to chop through only one end of a kayak? Was he impaired? Did he leave because he was impaired? Was he navigating by GPS? That night had calm water, low traffic, a full moon and very clear visibility.

The wayward swim raft normally wouldn't be occupied, would be close to shore and wouldn't be required by law to display proper lighting.

Regardless if the water was calm, traffic low, a full moon and clear visibility, the fact remains that a vessel was operating during the hours of darkness, between sunset and sunrise, without displaying proper lighting. The operator was at extreme risk of being killed.

I am hearing a different tune.
 

I was curious as to how the boater was found. They mentioned the size of the boat, so I did some digging, and as I suspected, the media is not telling the whole truth. As I understand it, there was no hit and run, in fact the boater assisted the kayaker, and brought them to shore, leaving with them their complete info. As the damage to the kayak was well under the needed amount to create a reason for MP to get involved, they were notified after the fact. So basically in a nutshell, reckless Kayaker, scared boater, did the right thing, glad no one was hurt, end of story.

But it doesn't say you can't have bow nav lights on Kayaks or Rowboats or canoes in addition. In fact and the Boat-Ed quote I gave you is straight from the training -- something Joe Q boater is far more likely to be familiar with than line and literal verse of the RSA. It's pretty plain English and also seems to be common sense. I can't imagine an MP citing you for a violation if you had full bow and stern nav lights on a kayak, rowboat or canoe, can u? Geez.

Just please don't put a strobe on your kayak. I'm going to thinks it's a flashing light for naviagtion. :eek:

Navigation light configuration is not optional!
 

Just to clarify a few misconceptions here.

While the Boat-Ed courses are great they are very generic in detail and the NH course has a number of errors in it. What Joe Q. boater needs to be familiar with is the Administrative Rules & RSAs that govern his boating conduct as these are the regulations that a law enforcement officer will be utilizing on a stop. Trust me, a response of "but that's not what they told me at Boater's ED" isn't going to get you very far out on the water!

Secondly, the Administrative Rule cited, Saf-C 403.16 contains a key legal phrase...."shall, between sunset and sunrise, display one white light in a conspicuous position, so placed as to show all around the horizon."

The operative legal word here is "shall". Therefore, if any other lights are displayed that are considered navigational lights, in particular red/green bow lights, then you are in violation of this Administrative Rule and can be cited for same. The defense of "it doesn't say I can't have extra lights" will not apply here because of the distinct legal phrasing!

Common sense tells me that there are very distinct and rational reasons why different classifications of vessels are required to display different combinations of navigational lights, to help operators of other vessels determine what's out on the water around them. Therefore you are very likely to be cited if you draw enough attention to yourself to be stopped for a violation and are discovered to be displaying a combination of navigational lights that you think is in your best interest but does not comply with applicable regulations.

Of course you could always tell the nice MP officer that you got the idea from the great folks over at Winnipesaukee.com , I'm sure that will let you off the hook! ;)

Right. Nav lights have accepted and specific meanings. Strobes are special purpose indicators. Misusing a type of light can be confusing and result in a hazardous situation just like using no lights or inadequate lights.

Here are some of the strobe meanings that I am aware of. This list might not be complete and may not be completely accurate.

Yellow/amber - Surfaced submarine.

Blue - Police function.

Red -- Fire safty function.

White - Man-Overboard beacon. PFD strobe. Life-Raft/Life-Boat beacon.

Additionally, some bouys use these same colors. Aviaton collision safety beacons near water may also cause some confusion.

Getting back to the kayak... It looks like we have more details. Does any one have link with the updated story?

Lights out?
 

I looked at 3 different sites that claim to explain the boating req's in NH. Skip, I agree that 2 of these are general sites and use common language that suggest they're just copying Coast Guard req's. However, the site noted below (and in my earlier post) is the official site supported by the NH Department of Safety and has the same Nav Light req's as the other two.

From the home page:

Welcome to the official boating safety course developed for the New Hampshire Department of Safety. By passing the online exam, you will be well-prepared to pass the proctored final exam that is required to fulfill your obligation under the law.

This link has the specific nav light discussion:

http://www.boat-ed.com/nh/course/p4-9_navlights.htm

Also, from this site, you can take an online exam to get pre-cleared to then take the proctored exam without having to sit through the class.

I guess we should tell Marine Patrol that their instruction regarding nav lights is inconsistent with actual NH law....

Wondering what's on the boater certification exam since this is a topic I would hope actually gets tested.

Kamper, good list.

On Winnipesaukee every numbered marker has a white strobe. At night that's how I navigate. Find the flash and run towards it, then pass it on the safe side. A strobe is a target.

Doesn't "the media" include us?
 

'Curious as to how "length of boat" returns "the whole truth"....

"The whole truth" is a winnowing process—especially if you were to start at post #1 here.

1) The kayak was cut in half—but only a portion of the bow is gone.
2) Two were rescued—but the kayak shown on TV was a single-seater.
3) It was a hit-and-run—but the boat came to their rescue.

:rolleye2:

That "digging"—was it a different boating forum? (e.g., BoatUS, Donzi-Registry, KayakSport?)

:confused:

Just in case you want further confusion on lights for non-power boats, look at the rules themselves: http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rules/saf-c400.html

In section Saf-C 403.17 it shows drawings of running lights and the row boat, canoe and small sailboat all show a man holding a lantern. The drawings are tiny but undeniable.

Also, in Coast Guard controlled waters a non-powered boat may exhibit the same red and green lights required by sailboats.

Hmmm, different story than what I got, just wondering who you got it from? Certainly is better than a hit and run.

Please post where your information came from. From what I saw yesterday it seems like the media was leaving it rather gray, giving the misconception that it was just another reckless boating accident on a dangerous lake.

Consistent inconsistency!
 

I agree with you 110%.

Nowhere else in the State can I find the general inconsistencies that occur regularly when it comes to NH boating nad navigation regulations, although snowmobile & ATV regulations and their concurrent confusing state of explanation & implementation run a close second!

Thankfully there is a well perused site like this where folks can rationally discuss many of these issues and learn from each other and our experiences! :)

We were on the boat that hit the kayak
 

We had picked up a friends daughter who was working in Meredith Harbor at 11PM and then visited a friend who had just purchased a new camp on Bear Island. On the way back to Meredith we hit the kayak because they didn't have any lights on. It was the scariest nite of our lives! We will be forever grateful they were ok. We stopped and they were insistent that they didn't want a ride back to their camp-come to find out they didn't even know where it was. They did not have life perservers on. It took us at least 15 minutes by boat to get to their dock and they were at least a half mile off shore. The front third of his kyack was severed-we retrieved it put both their kayaks in our boat and made sure they were alright and home safely. We would like to urge everyone to please observe boating safety rules, wear life persevers, use lights starting at dusk and maybe stay near the shore in non motored craft at night. Many of us have not slept since this incident early Saturday morning. The Marine Patrol gentlemen were wonderful and understanding but it will never take the awful memories away of what might have happened. Sue

Thanks for sharing, that must have been horrifying. I can't even imagine...

MY GOD!

Not only did they take their lives for granted that night, they almost destroyed your lives. I couldn't imagine the awful feeling I would have if I had taken someone's life even if it wasn't my fault.

Thanks for sharing the story and I am glad everyone was ok.

Good for you for doing all the right things to help out the kayakers.That must have been some scary!
By the way.....was there any damage to your boat?

No damage to the motor boat
 

No, thankfully there was no damage to the motor boat we were on. There were young adults who were quite traumetized and none of us adults slept that nite. whew am I glad no one was hurt. Thanks for all the kind remarks that we did the right thing-it's hard to think straight in a situation like that but we couldn't leave them in the middle of the lake!!

Sue, good for you, God was with those people that night, you should rest easy, you obviously did all you could and did the right thing.