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-   -   The Dive? (https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23279)

ishoot308 05-14-2018 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R (Post 294647)
Oh yeah, it will have no trouble with rough water, it has a very low CG and can't go fast enough to pound in the waves. It's not a 17 foot bow rider.
I’m not so sure about that Dave. Those big barges that you see crossing the lake with heavy equipment need absolute calm waters and no wind to make the journey. Even without a load, they still need no wind and calm water and they have the lowest center of gravity of anything out there.

I just don’t see it.

Dan

jbolty 05-14-2018 12:49 PM
One thing for sure, there is a lot of buzz and free advertising going on.

Biggd 05-14-2018 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiltonBB (Post 294649)
If I was building it my biggest concern would be what happens to the boat if it is not a financial success. The height and beam would seem to make it difficult or impossible to move it off of the lake and where would you go with it. Even a move to the coast would be a major undertaking.

There are a limited number of places that it can dock on the lake too so finding a suitable slip for the season would seem difficult. You would have to assume they have that covered.

Winter storage? Looks a little big for a travel lift? Someone has to have figured all of these things out but it should be interesting..
If it starts to sink financially then it will probably end up on fire, oops grease fire!
I wonder what kind of insurance policy can be written on that thing?

codeman671 05-14-2018 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiltonBB (Post 294649)
If I was building it my biggest concern would be what happens to the boat if it is not a financial success. The height and beam would seem to make it difficult or impossible to move it off of the lake and where would you go with it. Even a move to the coast would be a major undertaking.

There are a limited number of places that it can dock on the lake too so finding a suitable slip for the season would seem difficult. You would have to assume they have that covered.

Winter storage? Looks a little big for a travel lift? Someone has to have figured all of these things out but it should be interesting..
If they are building it in West Alton, they are probably keeping it there, probably near where the construction barge sits. It doesn't have to come out of the water in the winter, in there it is very sheltered. They could leave it in and run a circulator or two around it.

Dave R 05-14-2018 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ishoot308 (Post 294652)
I’m not so sure about that Dave. Those big barges that you see crossing the lake with heavy equipment need absolute calm waters and no wind to make the journey. Even without a load, they still need no wind and calm water and they have the lowest center of gravity of anything out there.

I just don’t see it.

Dan
I can see why an open barge with low freeboard would be an issue with a heavy load, and steep waves, but this contraption does not appear to be open. Looks like waves would just flow over the deck, like on a pontoon.

noreast 05-14-2018 01:33 PM
Though I'm sure the engineers have done the math, Somewhere here I read 80 people up top? That's 16,000 lbs give or take, Imagine that thing in rough water loaded to capacity. I'd like to take a look at it out of curiosity.

Woodsy 05-14-2018 02:03 PM
The answer is in the math.... but I would not be too worried about how seaworthy the Dive will be.... There are lots calcs to be made for sure, all of them involving the CG of the barge. No occupancy permits will be issued if the Coasties & MP don't sign off....

My guess is, the barge is/will be properly ballasted for a worse case scenario. IMHO that would be max capacity of people all rushing to one side. In other words a complete load shift/failure. Ballasted properly... nothing bad will happen.

Wind & waves are probably no issue either.... certainly, waves will have 0 effect on a properly ballasted barge on Winni. The wind will be an issue for the tugboat (for lack of a better term) that has to push/maneuver the barge around. But if they go early morning before the wind picks up and and come back after sunset when the wind dies down, I doubt they will have an issue.

Cheers to them for trying something new!

Woodsy

Outdoorsman 05-14-2018 02:15 PM
I look forward to reading this thread in September.

webmaster 05-14-2018 02:17 PM
Like others, I have lots of concerns and questions about this. I'm not an expert but when a ship is built for the ocean it has to pass a series of sea trials to verify its seaworthiness and ability to right itself in severe conditions. Wouldn't this commercial vessel that carries passengers have to have similar testing and certification to carry passengers?

I also have many questions about how the licensing would work as they pass in and out of the towns around the lake, especially if they sold liquor.

Also, the wood construction seems odd. It looks like they are building a condo. Not a ship.

It certainly will be interesting.

Outdoorsman 05-14-2018 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by webmaster (Post 294665)
Like others, I have lots of concerns and questions about this. I'm not an expert but when a ship is built for the ocean it has to pass a series of sea trials to verify its seaworthiness and ability to right itself in severe conditions. Wouldn't this commercial vessel that carries passengers have to have similar testing and certification to carry passengers?

I also have many questions about how the licensing would work as they pass in and out of the towns around the lake, especially if they sold liquor.

Also, the wood construction seems odd. It looks like they are building a condo. Not a ship.

It certainly will be interesting.
Wouldn't the licensing be at the same standards as the Mount? If so, it is not new territory for the state to be issuing any licenses for this vessel, be it food, liquor or "noise". Just wondering.

ishoot308 05-14-2018 02:34 PM
West Alton
 
If you think about it, West Alton marina is the perfect place for “The Dive”! Considering they have no food or drink facilities at West Alton, this would fit the bill just perfect for all the people who Slip their boats to grab lunch, a cold beer and whatever else. If the weather is bad the Dive simply stays in at that sheltered Cove and sells food and drink to all the slipped boaters and those boats that want to stop by. Maybe they will even allow vehicles by road to go to West Alton for food and drink on the Dive. Maybe, just maybe, West Alton Marina owns the Dive and this is part of their expansion! This is all just conjecture on my part of course!:D

It will be interesting to say the least !

Dan

The Real BigGuy 05-14-2018 05:56 PM
I wouldn’t worry about wind and waves too much. One of the lake construction co’s has a 60 ft barge powered by twin 250’s. He manages to maneuver in most summer weather conditions with a 15 ton excavator, skid steer, and a load of sand or gravel. That being said, don’t think you’ll see me at “The Dive” in high wind/high wave conditions. I wish them well though.


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TiltonBB 05-14-2018 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by webmaster (Post 294665)
Like others, I have lots of concerns and questions about this. I'm not an expert but when a ship is built for the ocean it has to pass a series of sea trials to verify its seaworthiness and ability to right itself in severe conditions. Wouldn't this commercial vessel that carries passengers have to have similar testing and certification to carry passengers?

I also have many questions about how the licensing would work as they pass in and out of the towns around the lake, especially if they sold liquor.

Also, the wood construction seems odd. It looks like they are building a condo. Not a ship.

It certainly will be interesting.
There are inspections of every commercial operation and vessel on the lake, every summer, prior to the start of the season. Just like the Mount Washington each "for hire" vessel must pass an inspection that covers a number of issues to insure that it is safe.

Even the jet ski rental rental operators must have all of their jet skis inspected and approved by the Marine Patrol prior to renting them out.

When you think of all of the rental boats and jet skis on the lake it takes a substantial amount of time for the Marine Patrol to visit and inspect each one. And that is before all of the summer help arrives.

ursa minor 05-14-2018 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy (Post 294662)
The answer is in the math.... but I would not be too worried about how seaworthy the Dive will be.... There are lots calcs to be made for sure, all of them involving the CG of the barge. No occupancy permits will be issued if the Coasties & MP don't sign off....

Woodsy
Yes to all of this plus a lot of other things. I'm pretty sure they'll need to have a sanitary tank, fresh water, a house generator / fuel storage for power, fuel for the propulsion engines, etc. You would want to get as many of those things as possible down into the hull to help get GC down as far as possible. There's no way this will be allowed to carry paying customers until a lot of state and federal inspections occur. I'm sure the insurance people will have a lot of input as well.

There are some impressive dollar signs adding up on this, hopefully they can make a go of it on 8-10 busy summer weekends. I'm glad there are entrepreneurs out there though, I'd just way over think the whole thing and never try it. I sure hope they picked the right naval architect though...

MAXUM 05-14-2018 09:52 PM
2) We have a first-of-its-kind boat drive through window (aka the Dive Thru). Customers can order food ahead on our mobile app or through our website - and they will receive a text when they can come to the window to get their order. No need to anchor or find dock space!

Taking bets on how long it will be before somebody t-bones that thing pulling up to the "dive thru"?

Hillcountry 05-14-2018 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM (Post 294685)
2) We have a first-of-its-kind boat drive through window (aka the Dive Thru). Customers can order food ahead on our mobile app or through our website - and they will receive a text when they can come to the window to get their order. No need to anchor or find dock space!

Taking bets on how long it will be before somebody t-bones that thing pulling up to the "dive thru"?
Lol 2 words come to mind...fuster cluck.

ApS 05-15-2018 07:22 AM
West Alton "Home" to West Alton Sandbar..."Taking a Dive"?
 
1 Attachment(s)
As to "doing-business", isn't there a long sandbar off West Alton? :confused: If that's the case, family-boaters would leave Braun Bay to "those others". :cool:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy (Post 294670)
I wouldn’t worry about wind and waves too much. One of the lake construction co’s has a 60 ft barge powered by twin 250’s. He manages to maneuver in most summer weather conditions with a 15 ton excavator, skid steer, and a load of sand or gravel. That being said, don’t think you’ll see me at “The Dive” in high wind/high wave conditions. I wish them well though.
One barge overturned here in 2004, and another barge tipped a Bobcat into the lake recently—neither barge had a second story.

https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...read.php?t=627
https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...read.php?t=647

Barges have an advantage of sheer "mass" and less windage aloft. They can navigate against a shoreline at a favored "haunt", drop their corner docking posts and ride-out most any weather. ("Favored haunt" meaning, shorelines where they'd been a familiar sight—or Johnson's Cove, where three barges have been seen sheltered at the same time, including overnights).

If a cell (or microburst) should come across the lake, The Dive can also run aground, even allowing water to flood into its hulls—to be pumped out later. That is, if the "cell" can be seen in time for such countermeasures. (In my own experience, about five minutes is all the time you've got). :eek2:

"Flooding" barge hulls can also be inadvertent! :eek:

chipj29 05-15-2018 08:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ITD (Post 294651)
That went down hill quickly...….. back to the OP, I wonder how the liquor permit works?
They will most likely only be able to sell liquor to passengers, they won't be able to sell it "to go".

The Real BigGuy 05-15-2018 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS (Post 294698)
As to "doing-business", isn't there a long sandbar off West Alton? :confused: If that's the case, family-boaters would leave Braun Bay to "those others". :cool:

One barge overturned here in 2004, and another barge tipped a Bobcat into the lake recently—neither barge had a second story.

https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...read.php?t=627

https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums...read.php?t=647

Barges have an advantage of sheer "mass" and less windage aloft. They can navigate against a shoreline at a favored "haunt", drop their corner docking posts and ride-out most any weather. ("Favored haunt" meaning, shorelines where they'd been a familiar sight—or Johnson's Cove, where three barges have been seen sheltered at the same time, including overnights).

If a cell (or microburst) should come across the lake, The Dive can also run aground, even allowing water to flood into its hulls—to be pumped out later. That is, if the "cell" can be seen in time for such countermeasures. (In my own experience, about five minutes is all the time you've got). :eek2:

"Flooding" barge hulls can also be inadvertent! :eek:
Yup, bad things can happen in bad weather and all boats can take on water unexpectedly. All the things you mentioned could happen, and the can happen to any boat on the lake, large or small. Maybe we should all wait for The Dive to go thru the build, permitting, and inspection process to see what comes out of it. It seems to me that we all spend far to much time trying to find the down side rather than imagining the good. Human nature I guess!


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jbolty 05-15-2018 11:34 AM
Think positive.

If they have not already thought of it doing it a charter for fireworks viewing would be pretty great,

joey2665 05-15-2018 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy (Post 294717)
Yup, bad things can happen in bad weather and all boats can take on water unexpectedly. All the things you mentioned could happen, and the can happen to any boat on the lake, large or small. Maybe we should all wait for The Dive to go thru the build, permitting, and inspection process to see what comes out of it. It seems to me that we all spend far to much time trying to find the down side rather than imagining the good. Human nature I guess!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
Many of the questions are arising from the photos posted on their website and are legitimate questions based on the vessels design. I truly hope that is a safe design and a successful business as I think I would use their services on occasions instead of waiting for a slip to open at a town dock or in line for a table at one of the lakeside establishments

The Real BigGuy 05-15-2018 11:47 AM
You bring up a good point. I wonder if they will be able to anchor in, say Merideth Bay, and do business. Bet that would tick off the restaurants and I cream parlors. I also wonder if they will be able run a launch to move people back and forth from town docks.


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Phantom 05-15-2018 11:59 AM
That would be bloody PERFECT !

Drop the wife off at the town docks (where you can never get a slip anyway) let her go shopping while I mozy over to the Dive ! :D :D :D

Priceless

.

Outdoorsman 05-15-2018 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy (Post 294717)
Yup, bad things can happen in bad weather and all boats can take on water unexpectedly. All the things you mentioned could happen, and the can happen to any boat on the lake, large or small. Maybe we should all wait for The Dive to go thru the build, permitting, and inspection process to see what comes out of it. It seems to me that we all spend far to much time trying to find the down side rather than imagining the good. Human nature I guess!


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
I was thinking exactly this!

I would imagine the "owners" have already considered all of these factors and likely have vetted the permitting process prior to spending $100's of thousands of dollars building it.

With all of the chatter on this site about finding places to eat near various docks, I am surprised at the responses to this thread that are less than favorable.

TiltonBB 05-16-2018 06:01 AM
No Rafting
 
If they anchor in a "No Rafting" area can you pull up to it and tie up while they cook your burger?

Can you order by phone and do a "touch and go" in a No Rafting zone when your food is ready?

Just askin'

SIKSUKR 05-16-2018 06:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot (Post 294451)
We might as well start with the negative food reviews now....why wait? :rolleye2:

I wish them success!
Agree. That Shades of Maui operation though years ago was fantastic.:laugh:

Taz 05-16-2018 08:10 AM
Tilton bb - rafting
 
Its not a raft if you are the only boat tied to "The Dive". A raft is 3 or more boats tied together.

noreast 05-16-2018 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz (Post 294781)
Its not a raft if you are the only boat tied to "The Dive". A raft is 3 or more boats tied together.
Right, but doesn't being in a no rafting zone prohibit boats anchoring within a certain footage? I generally don't do sand bars so I really don't know.

upthesaukee 05-16-2018 10:43 AM
25/50
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noreast (Post 294795)
Right, but doesn't being in a no rafting zone prohibit boats anchoring within a certain footage? I generally don't do sand bars so I really don't know.
25 ft between single boats anchored in a NRZ. 50 ft between 2 boats tied together and outer boats anchored in the NRZ.

Dave

tis 05-16-2018 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by upthesaukee (Post 294801)
25 ft between single boats anchored in a NRZ. 50 ft between 2 boats tied together and outer boats anchored in the NRZ.

Dave
And 150 feet from shore in most of the rafting areas. Braun Bay is 75 I believe.

jbolty 05-16-2018 05:25 PM
None of us have a clue but it's still fun to speculate. Some if it might even turn out to be correct. :D


I have to think they will sort of follow the food truck model. Announce on twitter they will be here, here and here at these times. They are not making money while driving around and since they will need to sort of keep to a schedule flagging them down for a burger mid lake seems unlikely; they would never get where they are going otherwise.

ApS 05-17-2018 07:22 AM
Having Witnessed Three Microbursts on Lake Winnipesaukee...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy (Post 294717)
Yup, bad things can happen in bad weather and all boats can take on water unexpectedly. All the things you mentioned could happen, and the can happen to any boat on the lake, large or small. Maybe we should all wait for The Dive to go thru the build, permitting, and inspection process to see what comes out of it. It seems to me that we all spend far to much time trying to find the down side rather than imagining the good. Human nature I guess!
I think you misunderstood. The Dive appears to be designed above a barge basis. It has steel supports to the floor above. Operating in shallow water—if subjected to a microburst—it has the distinct advantage of being run aground intentionally. Intentional flooding would help to anchor it. If it were my design, I'd add hydraulic outboard "jack plates".

Seeing Winnipesaukee's construction barges operating every day, I've noticed they don't go out in heavy wind conditions. (Having witnessed a microburst while holding my boat in knee-deep, but sheltered, water—neither do I ;) ). Although I haven't made a correlation (yet) with bad weather; sometimes, they'll come to a complete stop for many minutes—then turn around to return to their base in Johnson's Cove.

By contrast, the Winnipesaukee Belle has a flat bottom, but isn't a design like The Dive. (It doesn't power its side-paddles, as they're ornamentation). I've never seen it navigate in a straight line, as it is subject to random yawing.

.

Dave R 05-17-2018 07:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM (Post 294685)

Taking bets on how long it will be before somebody t-bones that thing pulling up to the "dive thru"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillcountry (Post 294688)
Lol 2 words come to mind...fuster cluck.
I'm confused, why would it be any more challenging than approaching a wide-open dock? I've seen some poor docking performances (my own included), but I have yet to see anyone t-bone one.

Parker 05-20-2018 10:14 AM
I am all in on this idea. Such a cool concept

Phantom 05-29-2018 06:06 AM
2 Attachment(s)
Still has some work to do from what we saw …………….. pic's from Saturday

.

ApS 05-29-2018 06:55 AM
Y'Gotta Pick Your Days, But...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker (Post 294903)
I am all in on this idea. Such a cool concept
"Dive" is a good name, but if I'd opened a bar, I'd name it "Night School". ;)

Quote:
See ya' later, honey, I'm going to Night School. :)

Rich 05-29-2018 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom (Post 295260)
Still has some work to do from what we saw …………….. pic's from Saturday

.
Thanks for the photos.

Maybe it's just me, but in the spirit of armchair reviews, if I was designing something like that with twin engines, I would have them placed as far apart as possible to help with control of the boat.

I'm looking forward to seeing it on the water, and will plan on stopping by.

Phantom 05-29-2018 08:04 AM
The one thing we took note of immediately is IF ( and no one knows for sure yet) WAM is it's home base -- watch out when the Dive heads in/out of the Smalls Cove channel ………………..



.

The Real BigGuy 05-29-2018 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 295263)
Thanks for the photos.



Maybe it's just me, but in the spirit of armchair reviews, if I was designing something like that with twin engines, I would have them placed as far apart as possible to help with control of the boat.



I'm looking forward to seeing it on the water, and will plan on stopping by.


I had the same thought!


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chasedawg 05-29-2018 10:24 PM
The Dive
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 295263)
Thanks for the photos.

Maybe it's just me, but in the spirit of armchair reviews, if I was designing something like that with twin engines, I would have them placed as far apart as possible to help with control of the boat.

I'm looking forward to seeing it on the water, and will plan on stopping by.

Agree! It would be much better for control. With this engine spacing and the high freeboard it will be difficult to adjust pivoting 180 degrees or in any tight spacing. I just don't see a barge like this will do well in any waters. I drove the Winnie Bell and it has two I/O's and control was very difficult.


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