Sd/lb
 

Jeff, to quote a great American presidential candidate "at this point in time what difference does this make." Whether crime was more or less prior to the WOW Trail has no impact on what it is now. We know that between 2010 and 2016, a six year period, there were 132 reported incidents that required police investigation. Some were very serious. My suspicion is that crime was less prior to the WOW Trail since the use of opioids has exploded the last several years. However, this is just a guess.

Woodsy, you think SD/LB is a "wealthy" community? I agree it's very nice, but for the most part the condos are very modest and most of the homes are modest. No one is going to confuse SD/LB with Governor's Island or Grouse Point for that matter. The primary reason why SD/LB is gated is because the residents like to drive golf carts. That's one of the reasons why the roads were never turned over to the City.

Crime?
 

I would suggest that there may be more questionable activity in parts of the trail that go through some areas of Laconia but not others just like there is more crime in general in some areas of Laconia rather than others. If the trail is fully completed one day will the crime in Laconia transfer to Meredith just because a trail connects them? I rather doubt it. Do criminals in Laconia make a habit of driving over to South Down? It's not all that far. I suspect they don't. They prefer to stay on their own turf and in areas that are not as wide open where their activity might be seen. South Down is pretty wide open and not easy to hide in. I suspect the people there know their neighbors and would quickly report any strangers hanging around. It wouldn't be a welcoming area for criminals and they would know it.

It was Joey not Jeff who made the crime comment and you validated my point. You can have all the suspicion you want but there is no trail as of yet in SD/LB and I have been broken into and witnessed many drug interactions. I seriously doubt the trail will cause and increase as the area is extremely accessible via the rail tracks and the codes to the gates are the worst kept secret in Laconia. My point being crime really is not an arguing point not to have the trail go through SD/LB

So then your position is that since there is already crime no concern should be given to changes that might INCREASE crime? If I have misinterpreted your comment please clarify, thanks!

Statistically speaking, I don't think it has a time limit either. It would not be to the state's benefit to put auto-expiration clauses on ROW grants, or similar exceptions based on future use potential.

However, like many things legal, events over time often cause things to be reevaluated and for parties to realize that language was not specific enough, other precedents or decisions in tangential lawsuits come into play, etc.

SD/LB has changed a lot in character over time. Look at some of the early buildings vs. later ones, it appears, to me, that it started as more of a simple/affordable community and morphed over time into one that contains more and more higher-valued properties. Some of those property owners may have built elsewhere or chosen to alter their plans had they anticipated a 30 year old dormant easement to suddenly be put to use. I am not saying that fully justifies the opposition, but it does impact things (IMO).

When we purchased in South Down (2006), I do not recall seeing any clauses, deed restrictions, etc. that mentioned this ROW existing and being earmarked for a public trail and associated fences to be built through the community. Should potential buyers have been made aware of how the common area property, and the community at large, could be impacted? Are there other precedents in similar circumstances?

Sd/lb
 

Sorry for the misquote Joey. I've lived full time in SD/LB since 2008, and part time since 2001. I have to admit, I've seen sketchy people from time-to-time at the basketball court near the entrance of South Down late at night. However, I am not aware of ANY crime in SD/LB. I'm sure there have been instances, such as your break-ins, but for the most part, SD/LB is a crime-free community. I feel extremely safe.

Much like politics, I don't think either side is going to win over the other side. From my perspective, I hope funding for Phase III never materializes. I think the WOW Trail's $5-10 million estimate is absurdly low. There are issues with the stretch between Pickerel and Perch Ponds, as well with navigating under the Weirs Beach Bridge. Who knows, maybe the litigation will force a compromise. Stranger things have happened.

Absolutely agree with the costs and potential construction pit falls at Perch and Pickerel Ponds. Just for interest sake pass by the parking lot underneath prides point late at night you will be surprised by what you can see. I have been a part time resident since 2006 but moving on now to a different location, its getting too crowded in there for me. Incredible the amount of new homes being built there.

Sd/lb
 

I will definitely check out the parking lot. Good luck on your move. Sorry to lose you as a neighbor.

Thank you very much, the were a lot of pros and cons to consider. I will be around, my ex has a home in SD

Being a non lawyer you can take my opinion for what it's worth but since the public trail is not an encumbrance on any South Down property, there is no reason you would have seen it on any of your property documents. It is related to the STATE property. Most people wouldn't build near railroad tracks to begin with but the bet here was that the railroad in NH was dead and eventually the tracks would get torn up. Oops.

Sometimes it's not what can happen on YOUR property that you need to be aware of; it's what can happen on your NEIGHBOR'S property. Suppose a neighbor's property was zoned commercial (yours is not) and poof, suddenly they sell and a business is being built in your back yard and there is not a lot you can do about it except maybe to get some buffering put in. Unless you really dug into the real estate situation in the area, you probably would never see it coming. Most of us just aren't that careful. I think that is what is happening here.

When we purchased in South Down (2006), I do not recall seeing any clauses, deed restrictions, etc. that mentioned this ROW existing and being earmarked for a public trail and associated fences to be built through the community. Should potential buyers have been made aware of how the common area property, and the community at large, could be impacted? Are there other precedents in similar circumstances?[/QUOTE]

When I purchased in 2006 in SD before moving to LB, my broker provided me with copies of the original declaration along with the SD by-laws. The ROW is in there but also my broker discussed it with us before signing our purchase contract. Your broker at the time should have made you aware or at least provided all the HOA documents

I think the due diligence unfortunately falls on the buyer...

The buyer(s) in SD/LB probably knew about the RR ROW, as it is a physical landmark. I seriously doubt that most buyers were aware or were made aware that the RR ROW extends to the water for most of the shoreline, and that property did not belong to SD/LB. The only way to know would be to look at the plot plans/tax map for SD/LB that I listed above. I am sure no RE Agent would point that out and possibly lose a sale. Its a pretty crappy situation for sure!

I can see SD/LB taking issue with the fencing, I wouldn't want a 6' high chain link fence there either. However that's a negotiation, not a lawsuit. Especially where there is some very nice low post & beam fencing in other areas of the WOW trail.

In the winter, the state allows snowmobiles/cross country skiers/hikers etc. to use the RR ROW as a connecting corridor trail. Public use/access utilizing the RR ROW thru SD/LB is already approved by the state. I am sure that was a surprise to some unsuspecting buyers too. So arguing against further public access is probably pretty futile as the state has ALWAYS allowed it.

Woodsy

There are two sides to that coin: Some people who like the idea of a trail may have decided to buy there hoping it would get built.

Good point :)

I have watched this back and forth, pro and con on this thread and know this is a very decisive issue. I have experience with the Minuteman bike trail that runs from Bedford MA, thru Lexington, Arlington and ends at Alewife in Cambridge.

First off, as others have said, many people did not want the trail built, or saw a need for it. Now, it is a selling point for neighborhoods all along the trail and it is a major recreation and commuter way and has spurred multiple Retail stops along the way.

Whether we do not want the trail in our back yard or think it is a waste of money, we have to understand that many people want these trails and are willing to pay for them. Yes this means in most cases we all pay for them through our taxes.

The Minuteman trail ends near the middle of Bedford MA, but the old railroad bed continues to Concord and a National Wildlife refuge. Concord and the Feds have little desire for the paved trail to continue in their jurisdiction, so it was a surprise to some of us when it was proposed at town meeting to enhance the trail and pave it the rest of the way to the Concord line. I personally had an issue with dumping a lot of people on a busy road with only mountain bikes and walkers able to continue along the old dirt RR bed.

I was on a committee that could block the primary proposed Funding from even reaching the Town Meeting floor; but we realized that many people wanted this so we voted to allow it to go to Town Meeting. There was discussion at TM but it passed with 2/3rds vote. It is still a long process as funds were approved for partial design and that has been going on for over 5 years.

Is it expensive, YES, but I think the trail will be good for the area like these trails have been across the region and the country. My advice to the 2 communities in opposition to the trail would be to save your money and use it to work with the WOW trail for better fencing, screening and access options. We have done this with other municipal projects and it can be done with benefits to everyone. It could be as simple as covering the extra cost for a darker or better style fence.

Golf carts
 

They should allow golf carts on the trail, might sway some opinion, being able to drive from south down the weirs to Meredith on a cart sounds like fun. Kind of shrink the community's and tie them together. Just a thought.

That's what they do in many over 55 villages in Florida, such as The Villages that is a huge community where the main mode of transportation is the golf cart, but in this case I do not think it would be very safe for the walkers, cyclists and runners

Yeah I knew that would be the argument against. But l would argue I am more dangerous on a bicycle going twice as fast as golf cart to a pedestrian than a golf cart.
I would also say like you said in Florida it is very common to mix carts with everything else, even on the street with cars. Even here south down, Meredith Bay, Grosse point, they mix the two. The cart path from Meredith Bay to Akwa mixes the two at a very steep grade and is still safe for pedestrians.

Don't get me wrong I know it will never happen but if the wow trail had to happen this would make it cool. Fun to talk about.

(side note, still wish the tracks had a pedestrian trolley)

Grouse Point
 

Grouse Point has steep grades too. When my parents lived there, a 12-year old girl died rolling a golf cart down a steep embankment. Kind of off topic, but golf carts, while fun, can be dangerous on steep hills.

I think it would be awesome to take the golf cart to the weirs or Meredith. Wishful thinking.


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I just wanted to be the 100th post on this thread

"Joey" won that distinction, but you did win the prize for being the 100th reply! No idea way the prize is, but you won it. 😁

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you are right, dam it, I used the wrong word,
I just wanted to be the 100th reply lol

I own and operate a restaurant that abuts the SD/LB community. My first summer the residents were coming by way of golf cart. Word of this spread by way of many channels and created additional interest in owning a home there. I'm approved by the city to offer groceries as well. Just as I was about to per sue that someone decided to start putting obstacles in the way of the golf carts. I dropped my interest in groceries.

I wouldn't be surprised by it if the trail gets built and bikers encounter big rocks placed on the trail. I think the trail organizers seriously need to consider this in their maintenance and upkeep projections.

I would think this is not just a maintenance issue. If someone was injured due to people deliberately placing rocks on the WOW trail it could become a criminal issue.

You are absolutely right, terrible things could come from, and easily be classified criminal from, some maliciously placed boulders. A reality is: how do you catch the culprit? Yes people could get hurt and a lot of money would be wasted on removing the boulders in the interim.

In a previous post I mention a potential alternative of bringing the trail down Elm Street to Parade Road and up to Severance Rd, then down to the tracks on what I referred to as the snowmobile trail through the state forest. That post was apposed by two seemingly legitimate views. The first states that the state would be foolish to allow easement. I've since remembered that the snowmobile trail I referenced is actually a class 6 Town Rd. I would hope that is something to work with. The second states that the WOW trail federal funding only applies to construction on the rail road track. To this I encourage we take a closer look and get creative for another source of funding for an alternate portion of the trail.

A large percentage of the alternate trail I propose is already paved therefore there would not be as significant of an expenditure to create a rideable surface. If the calculation turns out that the expense to connect Severance back to the tracks is more than what is saved with the alternate route pre-paved surface, and the trail organizers find a shortfall from the government funding, I have this solution. Work out a deal with us to create the WOW Welcome Center on the corner of Severance and Parade. We have the land and I'm certain that if Alan Beetle and I sat down at a table and talked about it, we could come up with a strategy that gave this WOW welcome center a foundation for profit through food and beverage. Those profits or a potion of, can be dedicated to the trail to offset the expense.

Please understand that to help make this happen, we would likely lose some of our realestate. I would hope that in appreciation of said sacrifice the SD/LB community would find a permanent way for golf cart access to The Mystic Meadows.

There we have it. The trail gets built, SD/LB don't have to deal with a fence and other concerns. Trail riders have a great welcome center and nobody crashes into a boulder.

Baygo that is an excellent viable solution and everyone wins in the end. I would think all parties would consider this alternative instead of wasting time in court and money on attorneys


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I'm not totally familiar with the routes proposed, but this sounds as if anyone who doesn't want the path near them just needs to threaten a lawsuit and come up with another option. Isn't the point of the path to be along the lake?

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WOW! (no pun intended) So the way to avoid your terrorist boulder placers is to adopt your plan? Moving boulders isn't a casual effort and should be detectable. How about we make every effort to find out who they are and throw them in jail and put their mugs on posters along the trail. "Look out for and report these thugs!".

To be clear, I really don't care if an alternative trail route is decided on. If all are happy about it, great. I applaud offering this alternative solution.

I REALLY DON'T like making decisions based on veiled threats and intimidation. Court fights are one thing. That is how society works out it's differences. Threatened boulders in the trail are a whole different thing. It's like walking into a discussion with a blatantly obvious weapon with the clear intention of intimidating the other people in the room. Cowering before criminals is NOT a good plan to deal with the situation. Talk about a WRONG message.

A few facts
 

Hi all,

Generally, I prefer to stay out of the discussion, but I thought it prudent to supply a few facts.

• I laud baygo's offer to broker a solution.
• Multiple alternative routes (including the one supported by baygo) have been suggested to the WOW Org by SD/LB. This includes the route that baygo has suggested. The reticence to negotiate an alternative is certainly not on the part of SD/LB. I would encourage baygo to meet with Alan and Gretchen to provide his views. That would be helpful and his offer is generous.
• The litigation is not something that SD/LB wanted to initiate. There have been many attempts to reach an alternative route with the WOW Org. This was an action of last resort and not a punitive response.
• The land that connects SD/LB with baygo is privately owned. SD/LB have no say as to whether golf carts are or are not allowed. Perhaps baygo could meet with the owners and work something out.

Jetskier :cool:

Thank you Jetskier very informative.

Thank you. You may not chime in often but when you do, it's valued.

The exterior borders of the property that you state is privetly owned has a 6 foot
communal border defined by a strip of grass that is cut by SD maintenance. Just enough for a cart trail.

They are not my " terrorist boulder placers" nor am I insinuating any threat by me. There are close to 2,000 people living in SD/LB and it's a law of averages that there's at least one who would be very bitter if a lot of money was lost in a court battle and then the trail infringes (in his or her mind) on his life. Perhaps it's not boulders, perhaps he or she kept removing the fence. I really don't think it's realistic to rely on a neighbor notifying law enforcement that someone took down the fence that the neighbor didn't like in the first place.

This issue is just too confrontational and will cost/waste way too much money if it stays on its current course.

They are not my " terrorist boulder placers" nor am I insinuating any threat by me. There are close to 2,000 people living in SD/LB and it's a law of averages that there's at least one who would be very bitter if a lot of money was lost in a court battle and then the trail infringes (in his or her mind) on their life. Perhaps it's not boulders, perhaps he or she kept removing the fence. I really don't think it's realistic to rely on a neighbor notifying law enforcement that someone took down the fence that the neighbor didn't like in the first place.

This issue is just too confrontational and will cost/waste way too much money if it stays on its current course. I wonder what would happen if we total up the money being conceited for legal cost and instead marked it to fund an alternative

While I think some of the ideas to "go around" SDS/LB are great and even could work from the research I did the rails to trails fund must be on railroad tracks. So even if they would consider it would have to be self funded. I lived in SDS for four years and was on the board. At the time I left the stance was to fight it at whatever cost but as I read through this I see a spilt stance on the homeowners. Someone in SDS should do what's needed to put a vote together on the yearly meeting coming up so all the homeowners can vote to on what to do and if needed how much money to spend. Just my 2 cents and that about all it's worth.


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Game Cam's or Trail Cam's are not expensive at all. Even LE uses them in certain situations. Especially Fish and Game. So let him or her continue. No need for a neighbor to notify law enforcement.

South Down/Long Bay (Offical WOW Trail Position)
 

"South Down and Long Bay position regarding the construction of the WOW Trail along the railroad right of way. In order to present a more factual representation we have created an informational website":

www.notthroughsdlb.com

Please note that this is their official stance on the Trail. I myself (a 10 year owner in SD then LB) do not agree with their position. Honestly whether you want the trail for various reasons or not, this site is complete propaganda. Crime and safety are and issue with out without the trail. It is just as easy to walk down or along the tracks than it is if you have the trail, the RR, beach access and boat clubs obviously there already so in my opinion there is no new issues that the trail creates are the criminal activity was there before the trail.

WOW.... its almost factual!

SD/LB already have public access thru their private community. The RR ROW is a snowmobile corridor trail used by the public... snowmobilers, hikers, etc....

just more NIMBY


Woodsy

WOW Trail
 

Crime is only one aspect of SD/LB position. I disagree with Joey. The WOW trail will create a defined avenue of egress, especially for a person riding a bike at night. I think it would be difficult to ride a bike along the side of the track at night in its present condition.

I know people who work (or worked ) for the Laconia police department. As I've stated in prior posts, publicly, they take a favorable position to the WOW trail. (I don't know why, but as witnessed by this forum, it is not very PC to be against it!) Privately, my source states that it is a defined avenue of egress for crime committed in Laconia and it is an attractive nuisance for crime, especially when committed at night. The WOW trail makes policing difficult.

I wouldn't focus on the crime aspect of the position. The environmental impact is a concern. Also, liability is perhaps the biggest concern. As stated previously, the WOW trail organizers are lobbying to have the Hobo railroad shut down. The owners of SD/LB already pay for this liability for its residents; however, any such policy would not apply to users of the WOW trail. Who is going to pay for it.

One thing I learned today is that the City of Laconia paid $400,000 for Phase II. As a taxpayer and resident, I am disappointed to hear this. The money could have been spent on more worthwhile things, like teacher raises. Or perhaps, a refund to the taxpayers, heaven forbid! Based on this contribution, I wonder what the City's obligation will be for Phase III?

Ride a bike, walk ect doesn't matter. I do not think crime is an issue either way as stated my home in LB was broken into and the walked down the tracks at night. My opinion change when I actually experienced the current trail for myself and found it quite enjoyable, I am the last person to be "PC". I also do not think liability is and issue as it is not much different than the current liability situation.

Were I absolutely agree with "Major" is, I do not think that phase III should be place on the shoulders of the tax payers. Private sponsorship, federal funding and donations should be used if not then I do not think phase III should be completed.