Originally was $10k to be paid by WOW Org.
 

Note that this was originally going to be $10k paid by the WOW Organization...when it was approved by the Laconia Council it turned into a city expenditure not to exceed $50k. This is at the same time that the city is cutting back on other expenditures such as Milfoil control.

Jetskier:cool:

WOW (pun intended) fiscal irresponsibility at its best!!!!!

I missed this one
Forget the city, what does the state gain by allowing the trail in place of rail? you honestly think the state would still receive the same investment in return? My understanding of the lease agreement, is that the 10% of the railroad's revenue, is on top of a regular flat rate fee the railroad already pays. The state stands to lose a lot of money if the rail disappeared. You know as well as I do, the trail will never recover any money for the state. Does the state even get any money for the trail that exist now?

I just stumbled across this nice study and its report that was done by Alta back in 2003 from what I can gather. As we all know Alta, is the same company that has been hired again to study the same section of the railroad. $40,000 to try and convince law makers, that the trail would be a better utilization of an active railroad corridor that is still under STB control, when they in fact have a study right in front of them that shows the two can co-exist with some detours the trail will need to take. I'm at a loss of words right now.
https://www.railstotrails.org/resour...ty%20Study.pdf

Our tax dollars hard at work. NOT.

Rail-Biking Abandoned Rails...
 

Nonetheless, rails can be extended to other recreation, like "rail-biking", developed in 1909:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viSJ...Q&index=2&t=0s

Not abandoned
 

This point is that this rail line is not abandoned. Note that abandonment is a formal process that relinquishes railroad use of the rail line.

Do the people on the City Board know about the previous study?

Woodsy

In my career the folks trying to influence us had a practice we called “Vote till you get it right”.

Maybe this is “Study till you get it right”?

Or maybe just "Have them vote till you get it passed!!!" They keep trying! I can't think of a town that didn't keep trying until the voters passed it and they got what they wanted.

Correct, they will keep trying till they get the outcome they desire but it will all come at the tax payers’ expense because last I checked the WOW trail couldn't even come up with the money on their own, like they were supposed to (yet somehow the trail will be an economic boom). It will take the tax payers to say enough, is enough but that's unlikely to happen considering the majority probably aren't aware nor care (what was the voter turnout yesterday for Laconia?). Supposedly some towns had under 20% of the registered voter turnout, so that should give you an idea of how many people don't pay attention to what's going on nor care to. It's clear this study is going to be a number crunching study vs physical infrastructure/layout study like the first one. They’re going to try and come up with facts and figures that support the trail vs rail. It's the same old scheme that is played out all over, whether it's here, New York or California. My biggest gripe is with those facts and figures; how can they come up with facts and figures? there's no user fees and they have no way to tell how many people use the trail and be able to break it down to visitors and locals. A simple survey sent out to residents and area businesses just doesn't cut it for me, yet we have a railroad that can tell you exactly how much they get for ridership every year and you know those riders are going to spend money outside of the railroad for food and what not because the majority that ride the train are not from around here.

We know that rail trails work around the country... if they weren't working at all people would not be building them. There will be some economic benefit, how much is up for debate. That being said...

The WOW trail needs to coexist with the existing railroad, just like does from Lakeport to Belmont.

The real issue here is the NIMBY folks in Southdown...


Woodsy

Rail trails are built through the efforts of committed supporters and government money.

That does not mean there is an ROI that exceeds that which would be derived by alternative projects.

Of course they work the purpose of rail trails were to make use of abandoned ones, but today trail advocates are going after active lines.

Like I said... they need to co-exist.

This "new" study is purely political... it is driven by Alan Beetle (of Patrick's fame) and good ole Rusty McLear (of Common Man fame). Both have considerable political clout.

The railroad makes Rusty no $$$... but the rail trail might make him a few!


Woodsy

I am not trying to pick a fight with you, more of a clarification, but when you say co-exist what do you mean, in the same place like side by side or just co-exist meaning two entities operating?

I would tend to lean to the side of you are saying co-exist as in side by side, why would the railroad need to do this or why would anyone have to allow them to do this?

again not a fight just clarification

Co-exist... side by side. The problem with phase 3 is that there's not enough room for both trail and rail, like there was in phases 1 and 2. The trail can co-exist in phase 3 but in the areas where there's only room for one the trail has to make detours and construct sidewalks along streets to get around the "bottleneck areas" and there's at least 2 if not 3 sections - the causeway over Pickerel Cove, the Rte. 3 overpass (which is often referred to as the tunnel) and possibly the causeway over Chattle Cove. The trail supporters, don't want to do this for a number of reasons: money and construction cost are probably the biggest reason, others don't want the trail to venture away from the lake (more appealing to the eye vs sidewalks along streets going by buildings/houses) and last but not least, some just don't want to see the big noisy train anymore. Then you have the issue with Southdown where they don't want the trail to be built period and want the track and train to stay.

All great points. I would love for them to exist together. If you can get SD and LB to sit down and come up with an acceptable esthetically pleasing fence instead of an ugly chain link maybe it would work. I don’t and never will by the crime argument and if done correctly will increase the value of property is SD/LB. I am speaking as a 10+ year owner in both communities.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Going after the railroad
 

The real issue is that there is a significant cost difference between building a trail adjacent to the existing rail line vs. replacing the existing rail line. The fencing alone will be somewhere between $.5M to $5M depending. In addition, there are retaining walls, drainage, bridges etc... Plus there are pinch points requiring passage across private property. There is grading, filling, paving etc... $$$$$$$$$$$$

So, the game afoot right now is to try to replace the railroad with the WOW trail. That is what the study is all about. The city is going to try to justify this by showing that the trail will provide a greater economic gain than the railroad. That is the intent of the $40k study. However, there are still 4 active railroads on this rail line and businesses that rely on rail service. It is difficult to see how extending the trail will create a significant economic benefit especially if the trail replaces the rail line as there is virtually nothing commercial along this route.

In addition, the city has just approved a plan to build a sport center on rt 106 and the alternate route for the WOW trail that has been proposed multiple times would have the advantage of being able to connect directly with that facility. The owner of a restaurant along the proposed alternate route has offered land for parking and a welcome center. Seems like a better way to go vs. trying to replace the rail line.

Jetskier :cool:

I know it means not getting the federal funding but if part of the trail can be along the lake where are you could be cost-effective and the other part one along route 106 to avoid the bridge near pickerel pond and other hazards areas such as the tunnel I think I would be a great compromise. Maybe re-connect to the lake just passed Aquamarina up into Meredith


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Federal Funding
 

Hi Joey2665,

Federal funding is not contingent upon building along or over the railway. Money that is allocated by the Fed to New Hampshire for alternative transportation is disbursed by DOT to projects as they see fit. I would be surprised if DOT were to allocate money to the WOW trail based upon replacing the rail line.

Just saying.

Jetskier :cool:

NH DOT can allocate the money without the need for replacing the existing railroad... Replacing the existing railroad just makes the construction costs way cheaper.

I do not see the STB, the NH DOT or the Railroad companies allowing the track to be torn up...

The WOW folks need to coexist...

Woodsy

Getting back to beating on a dead horse here!
For those in favor of the trail and who have zero regard for the railroad, this is what must be done for the rails to pulled up (see link). The railroad line up in Littleton, NH hasn't seen a train on those tracks since 1998 and it took the New Hampshire Central Railroad, up until about 2 years ago, to file a discontinuance with the STB, to remove themselves of common carrier obligations and remove themselves of a lease agreement with the state, before the state could even petition for abandonment. It's going to be an awfully tall order (if not impossible) to get the tracks shut down to build phase 3 in place of the tracks. Alta's study was supposed to wrap up at the end of April, I'm eagerly waiting to see the results of their winter long study. I imagine it will be any day now when the study is submitted to the city of Laconia.
https://www.stb.gov/decisions/readin...f?OpenDocument

The city of Laconia, has yet to go public with results from Alta's study, that they preformed over the winter. Much to my surprise however, I just came across this article that sheds light on a study that the railroad paid for. If the city ever decides to release the results of the study, one should be able to compare both.

"An analysis says the Hobo & Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad in New Hampshire accounts for more than $17.4 million in total economic impact annually."


https://www.visitwhitemountains.com/...gional-economy

I said it before and will day it again. They will never dismantle the railroad and the only way for the WOW Trail to proceed with the next phase is for the trail and rail co coexist.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Would you honestly expect the study (paid for by the company that profits from its use) to have any negative connotations?

From the same article:
Are we to believe that these trains are the sole reason the tourist/passengers visited the area? They made the reservations, booked their rooms etc. simply to come here and ride the hobo?

I did my own study many years ago.... The results.... 100% of "studies" are biased. Including mine of course! :rolleye1:

That is not what the study says. It’s is saying what the 17.4 million equates too, not that it created those or is the sole reason those jobs exist.

However I do agree all studies do have some degree of bias.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

The study in that article says:
So, you are saying that it "equates to", but the published article says "accounts for".... BIG difference.

Yes it accounts for 17.4 million to the economy which equates to 350 jobs, it did not create or is not the reason these jobs are maintained. It’s just saying 27.4 million equals about 350 jobs as a comparison


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Nice job, stripping my quote/comments to make your point "feel" stronger! Very Conservative of you. :look::look:

Thank you very much I appreciate the compliment [emoji4]


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Well I am aware that you are the "BE-ALL-END-ALL" of every discussion on this forum. So, carry on with your bad self. :rolleye1:

What in God’s good earth are you talking about? We are not allowed to read and interpret a study and come up with different conclusions.

Oh I see we all have to agree with you, I’m sorry your interpretation is correct and I am wrong please forgive me.

I just do not understand why people cannot agree to disagree and move on.


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

We will have to wait for the city to release their study, which we all know will be in favor of the WOW Trail, so let's not kid ourselves. The railroad did the right thing though, it will be up to one's own interpretation of both studies to draw their own conclusion.

Article in Concord Monitor

https://www.concordmonitor.com/Basch...iders-25343268


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

There will be a public meeting next week on Wednesday 9/25 at the Guilford Public Library, from 6pm to 8pm to discuss the WOW Trail phase 3 expansion. I guess the city of Laconia, will be getting more than what they bargained for because the state jumped at the opportunity to have the entire state studied by Alta and have been and will be holding meetings for each region of the state.
See the link for more info.
https://nhpedbikeplan.com/

Thank you for the update. Looks like it is going to get very interesting

I will not be. I feel it's a Total waste of resources. More people feel this way but are afraid to speak their mind. Please stop the WOW trail in it's place. Stop throwing money out the window.

I guess I deleted my last post. Anyways, just remember "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", so people who are against the wow trail for one reason or another cannot stay silent, you can be rest assured the supporters will be loud and will fight hard, the same scenario has been played out in every state for the past 20 years and there have been dire consequence because people stayed silent (railroads have been put out of business for the soul purpose of building a trail). Going back to the 1970 and 80's the history of the rail trail and its main purpose was to make use of railroad right of ways that were no longer used by the railroads, but that all change some 20+ years ago when they started going after active rail lines under government ownership (local, county or state) and rail trail supports are getting what they want because people on the other side are staying silent.

My daughter and I rode the Nashua rail trail last week. Five miles out, ice cream and a rest on the green, five miles back. Awesome exercise, awesome time with my daughter. Sure wish we had one closer than 20 minutes away.

Happy Saturday, all!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app