Originally Posted by MAXUM (Post 368174)

Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.

Originally Posted by garysanfran (Post 368181)

So long as China is the largest supplier of lithium, nations that depend on electric cars will become more beholden to China.

I believe China is also the largest producer of solar panels.

Plus our medical supplies and almost every trinket you buy in the "kitchen wares" section of any market.

Becoming more dependent on China is not my idea of independence.

Originally Posted by MAXUM (Post 368174)

Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.

Originally Posted by mswlogo (Post 368179)

Not saying everyone should have an EV.

But I’d care to understand your reliability concern.

My 2.5 year old Model X has yet to have any service. And for many service tasks they come to me !!! It never sees gas stations (except to fill the gas can for the lawn mower) and I rarely even need to stop for a charge. And I commute between MA and NH 120 miles away. It’s also an absolute beast in the snow. And believe me, I need a good snow machine. Better than the top end Jeep’s I’ve had. Lot’s people can’t afford those either but I don’t see negativity towards them. Loaded Pickups are now pushing $60-$70k.

Any one can have Solar (that has a place to put it). Not anyone can afford full purchase with no loan. Lots of people can’t afford to pay cash for their cars but they still buy new cars. There are plans for folks without excess cash if you bother to look.

There are also co-ops you can join. You don’t have to necessarily push power to the grid from your roof. But I don’t know that much about them.

Now the days of No out of pocket for Solar may be dwindling or less attractive. I don’t know todays details. But a few years back it was a bargain.

Originally Posted by MAXUM (Post 368200)

Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.

Originally Posted by MAXUM (Post 368200)

Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.

Originally Posted by mswlogo (Post 368202)

Price does not imply quality. I had a Model 3 as well. Only problem it had was a stress crack in the rear window. That’s it. Friend bought a Model 3 before me and just traded it for a Model Y. He had 50K miles and never saw service either. They gave him almost full price back in trade. I’m also getting almost full price back on my X in trade (cost almost nothing to own or run for 2.5 years). It was only due to luck due to shortages, increase in prices etc. Only reason I’m trading is because I can get back what I paid. Same for my friend and true fir many ICE cars as well.

I agree, Model 3 has had some issues (all Teslas have some issues). Yet Tesla is still #1 in customer satisfaction. I bet most of your friends still enjoy the car even after the frustration of the failures. A common failure is the 12V battery doesn’t last long and can leave you stranded and doesn’t give much warning. And if it dies it’s not easy to deal with. If you get the warnings, any warnings IMMEDIATELY get it to service.

https://insideevs.com/news/486130/te...-win-2020/amp/

I don’t care for leases either. And don’t like loans on cars as well. But most people I know that do leases are smart with their money. I can’t stand the thought of not actually owning my car. I’ve never even rented a living space either.

Even though a lot of folks argue that you’re better off investing the money and taking a loan vs paying for it in cash I don’t buy it that argument. Paying by cash forces you to stay within your means. But it depends on where you are in your life. When young it makes sense. When your older it doesn’t.

Originally Posted by Winnisquamer (Post 368206)

I’ve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got lucky… my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, I’d never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally won’t spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 I’ll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how it’s dumb to finance free money?

Originally Posted by Winnisquamer (Post 368206)

I’ve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got lucky… my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, I’d never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally won’t spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 I’ll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how it’s dumb to finance free money?

Originally Posted by Garcia (Post 368208)

I leased once and it was a mistake. I realize it makes sense for some but I don't see myself ever doing it again. I usually buy late model used cars and go to the dealer with financing in place. After settling on a price, if the dealer can offer better financing I'll take it.

Right now, I am thinking of buying new. What I can get for my trade is pretty high and from the bit of looking I have done, I can get a better deal on a new car than I can get on a used one.

As to gas prices, both at home and at the lake i don't see price changing usage much. Where i live public transportation and carpooling isn't an option. Getting to and from camp requires a boat ride. I don't go on vacations other than to camp (and recognize how fortunate I am to be able to have the place) so will fish, do water sports, or simply enjoy the water regardless of gas prices. I am thankful I will be able to do so.

My guess is that a big increase in gas prices will keep some people who trailer and sped the day on the boat away, but as was mentioned in an earlier post, those who can afford a boat are probably less impacted by rising gas prices than others. Not that it might not be painful, but boat owners are probably not choosing between gas and food.

Originally Posted by mswlogo (Post 368214)

Right. I’ve done 0% loans before for free money too. I never thought I’d do another mortgage. I have two homes paid off since 2008. But I decided to refinance our MA home and sell it once the NH house is built. I got 2% fixed 15 year. Almost free money.

Yeah, I agree on the Teslas. I liked nice safe quiet cars before the Teslas. I was big on upgrades with new crash avoidance features. But driving was more of a chore than a pleasure. Once I got the Tesla I make excuses to drive it (even 3 years later). It’s so completely different. It’s like going from a flip phone that only makes calls to a smart phone that makes calls and many other things. And why I more than doubled my budget for “cars” with no buyers remorse.

Originally Posted by RUGMAN (Post 368239)

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

Originally Posted by RUGMAN (Post 368239)

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

Originally Posted by John Mercier (Post 368260)

Wouldn't that be based on how many miles you drive a year and the fuel mileage your comparing too?

Originally Posted by RUGMAN (Post 368239)

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

Originally Posted by John Mercier (Post 368262)

Last auto I drove 12 years... just under 78,000 miles. Combined efficiency was around 35 mpg on an annualized basis; purchased for $10,800.

Current auto... six and a half years old... just under 45,000 miles, combined efficiency is around 40 (got as low as 37 mpg this winter with defrosting, but will hit 44 mpg during the summer)... purchased for $11,800.

I don't think the math quite works for me.

Originally Posted by John Mercier (Post 368266)

Both the old and new had good side impact ratings.
You have to remember... after everything/most things go electric... the only way to really gain ground will be for the Tesla to lose some weight.

Originally Posted by LakeDad (Post 368271)

Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…

Originally Posted by LakeDad (Post 368271)

Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…

Originally Posted by Juiced06GTO (Post 368274)

For anyone thinking solar, this is the quote I received to add a 12kw DC, 9.8KW AC system to my new barn. A 10kw AC system is the largest residential system they allow in Massachusetts. This includes net metering, enrolling in the new SRec program (not nearly as lucrative as the old program), and the federal tax credit which is 26% right now. The system would produce 101% of my current usage, less once I get the barn/workshop online.

This is for me to purchase it outright, no financing. Obviously financing it with interest is going to change your payback terms, as will great electric usage. The quickest payback is clearly purchasing outright, but the majority of people don't have a cool 44K to outlay to make that purchase. This company is local and has been in business for something like 15 years now, not one of the fly by night, disappear in a year companies, and is th eonly way I'd consider putting these on my house. I deal with plenty of solar companies in my line of work and have been burned by even the national guys, Solar City, Sunrun, and have no interest in supporting them.

Originally Posted by FlyingScot (Post 368279)

Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great

Originally Posted by John Mercier (Post 368287)

Unfortunately, I hate driving... so ''fun'' would never enter my equation. I am still upset that they removed the crank down window option on new cars.

Originally Posted by John Mercier (Post 368291)

I didn't find driving fun in a brand new convertible sports car either.
I find driving to be tedious. Something I must do rather than desire to.

Originally Posted by mswlogo (Post 368278)

I paid $96K for the Model X in fall of 2019.
With 27k miles on it now, they are giving $94K (plus tax) in trade !!!
I guess you’d call that “less so”.

Don’t kid yourself, Ford is good at stripping it down to the bone to get a low base model price to reel you in. You think the interior of the $40K base will be better than a Tesla? Does that even include a radio? Don’t forget dealer mark up BS.

A nicely packaged Lighting with a decent battery will be $70K+, fully loaded is $90K+ The Cybertruck will be more for the dollar. Guaranteed. Don’t forget with Ford, the middle man (dealer) gets $10K of that. And another $10K in advertising. Ever seen a Tesla ad?

I think interiors of Tesla’s are something like a Honda Accord or something. With all the glass (which can make cabin louder) and lack of knobs and buttons it can sometimes feel cheaper. It really isn’t. It’s not a Porsche inside but it’s not cheaply made. QA issues can also make it feel cheap when a plastic trim piece pops out. But they are built like a tank. The S/X is entirely aluminum. Crash tests show they are not cheaply built.

I think people are saving real Money on a Model 3 if they keep them long enough.

Ford recognized the dealership model is dumb and copying Tesla on that too.

Folks are not buying it for a statement. People that don’t know what it’s like to own one think that. They are just an absolute blast to own. Even with the hiccups, QA issues, ordering issues, high price tags people can’t get enough of them.

Originally Posted by FlyingScot (Post 368279)

Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great

Originally Posted by mswlogo (Post 368293)

If you hate driving so much why discuss the merits of one vs the other.

Personally you couldn’t pay me to own a convertible in New England. About all they are good for is a July 4th parade. Or around the corner for fish and chips. Will you take it Sun Fried, Wind blown, Ears Blown or Freezing? I feel like I’m relaxing in the living room with the stereo going and the car driving itself.

Originally Posted by mswlogo (Post 368293)

If you hate driving so much why discuss the merits of one vs the other.

Personally you couldn’t pay me to own a convertible in New England. About all they are good for is a July 4th parade. Or around the corner for fish and chips. Will you take it Sun Fried, Wind blown, Ears Blown or Freezing? I feel like I’m relaxing in the living room with the stereo going and the car driving itself.