I think the original question was about cost...you know the exact dollar amount spent on the investigation WiersBeachBoater?? Is this information public? I'd love to read up on it....oh i see you haven't seen a report about the incident as you stated you'd like to see one that attributes the accident to speed. I guess we are back where we started then..perhaps the investigation into the drowing in Alstead could equal this one. :)

Why, I don't know, but I'm sure you will tell us, even if you don't know.:rolleye1:

He's like the energizer bunny...he goes on and on and on and on and on :laugh:

They would probably be about as equally unqualified to decide what's safe on the lake, and what's not, as the sponsors of the latest speed limit bill (is it a bill yet?)

off topic
 

KC, you are missing my point. Pro speed limit people bring out these stories about terror, and fear. Well I hate to break it to everyone. The public has caught on. The sky is not falling! There are no hard facts to prove that speed is directly related to issues on the lakes. The only facts are that boat registrations are up and accidents are down. The education is working.

World Record runs are your average run over 500 meters. There are times of speeds WELL in excess of record speeds and then well below and the average is...... My run was a instantanious burst radared by a State Policeman in very similiar contitions to what you listed behind the Seabrook Power Plant :eek: :eek:

I can not speek for the other accidents but I am very familiar with the Cigarette accident as a friend of mine purchased that boat after it rolled over. The boat was traveling WELL below 45 miles per hour. The operator made a mistake while driving. The boat had very little damage to it proving this. The boat weights 7200 pounds.

Silly me...I thought we were talking about dollars and sense. :laugh:

Help is On The Way—NH-R-B-A
 

Nobody truly knows at what speeds those "flipped-and-sank" accidents occurred. NHRBA posted that they had acquired the NH Marine Patrol's 2002-2006 Accident Reports—wouldn't it be edifying to this discussion to disclose the factual speeds here?

http://wolfeboro.net/option,com_joom...limitstart,60/

Sorry, Jon, but an anecdote is not a FACT.

(I'd very much like to read, "it rolled over" in an official MP report, too!) http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8...ilielolbd4.gif

Radar? Reading a windsurfer?

Jon, are you speaking to the same effectiveness of radar over water as this post? :confused:

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...&postcount=101

Ummmm.......
 

I see both sides of the speed limit issue, which is why I have stayed quiet for the most part.... But um you are judging speed by the amount of damage.... that is not a fair assumption.... just because the boat didn't sustain what you would call major damage, doesn't mean it wasn't going fast....watch offshore racing sometime, I have seen some boats go through some pretty wild accidents and be ok on the other end. Well others have sank when you didn't see anything wrong........

There are two sides to this, and people have choosen their sides, and we will never all agree.... so lets admit to that....

Dollars
 

True enough, the topic was cost and then did revert back to the OP. But based on last year, are we now going to start discussing the cost of swimming in the lake ?

my $0.02
 

I see a lot of people posting about various accidents around the lake and wondering if they were caused by excessive speed, even going so far as to inferring that a speed limit could have prevented them.

I assume we will need to buy radar guns and train the MP on how to use them? Since I've seen radar guns clock pine tree's at 7 MPH (the tree later failed a field sobriety test as well), and anyone who's ever fought a speeding ticket knows that the police will admit they are inaccurate, then your 45 MPH speed limit becomes more like a 50 - 55 MPH enforceable limit. Is there a study or other FACTUAL information that shows a 50 - 55 MPH limit on Winni will prevent accidents?

Before my hard earned tax dollars are spent on enforcing a speed limit, wouldn't it make sense to determine if a speed limit will prevent accidents?

My guess would be, that is pocket-change stuff to be overlooked. Doubling or tripling your numbers would put speeds into some awful serious territory.

The debate rages on!! Oh joy.....

WinnFabs picked 45MPH because thats what they have for a speed limit in MA and over on Lake George NY. There isn't ANY statistical data to support that 45 is a good number, its just an arbitrary number. One also has to remember that Lake George is a State park and you have to pay a fee to boat there. Niether Lake George nor MA has a 150' Safe Passage Rule... I can LEGALLY go by you 1 foot from your gunwale as long as I don't exceed 45MPH. Talk about not safe for canoeist & kayakers!!! Evenstar care to chime in on this??

FACTS we need to remember...

1. Boating registrations are UP while the accident rate is down! Safe Boater Education is WORKING!

2. There have been less than 180 reportable boating accidents that resulted in personal injury between 2002 and 2006. The primary source of these personal injuries is a result of individuals being pulled behind a vessel, such as water skis, wakeboards and/or tubes along with PWC’s. The State of New Hampshire has not had a boating fatality as the result of a collision in the last four years!!

3. NH has an average of 44 boating accidents that result in personal injury every year. Not too bad considering the 100,000+ boats we have registered in the state and god only knows how many day trippers from out-of-state!

Speed is not the issue here, and really it never was. The issues here are reckless operation or ignorance of the 150' Safe Passage Rule, and noise. Both problems we already have laws on the books for!

Woodsy

This argument didn't work last year, can't imagine it will this year either. The State Senate voted down HB162 because it was "unenforceable", if memory serves, not because it was a bad idea.

If one was going double the limit, there'd be no point stopping. The MP has no boats that can catch a boat that fast, the roostertail will obscure the name on the transom, and there's no way anyone's gonna be able to read 3" high bow numbers at that speed. Custom paint, like a big "look at me" name on the side of the boat, might be a problem though...

We must stand up and fight this!
 

Gosh not only people in canoes etc. but what about people who use our roads to bicycles or even tricycles on no reason they should get off free either. I think you should contact your rep. and demand they introduce a bill to stop this flagrant abuse. Maybe a smaller fee for a canoe since the only use one paddle but a kayaker with the double paddle should pay more!!! We must stop this type of abuse!

I think someone needs to chill.
<O:p></O:p>
Oh…………I forgot to mention.
<O:p></O:p>
The speed limit is coming!!! Hip Hip Hoooooraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy.
<O:p></O:p>

APS: To get a read with my windsurfer I had to strap TWO licence plates to my boddy to make it work. Prior to that we were getting VERY erratic readings. So should I brace for a licence plate bracket requirement on my boat now :D

APS I think that you and I will have to agree that we will not see the same side of this issue. While I love a good debate I know that the owner of the site does not want these wars to go on so I am going to respectuflly bow out of any debate with you. It has been fun ;)

If the speed limit comes, and nothing changes, then what?? What will the new complaint be?? Call the MP, that boat was going faster than 45MPH!

We will still have congested areas, we will still have 150' violations, we will still have noisy boats, we will still have reckless operators... we can just add one more complaint to the list, we will still have speeding boats...

It is truly amazing to me the complete willingness of some to take away somebody's civil liberty just because you don't like them.

Woodsy

and those on foot . . .
 

Don't forget all those darn pedestrians. Sometimes I actually have to stop my big, fast moving car to let them cross the road. What hazards they are!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Who IS going to pay for it??
 

Chill? :yawn: Honestly I am more upset about my tax bill than a speed limit coming. It will really not have much if any effect on me, my boats barely break 50mph. Do I want one? Hell no. It is a useless, unwarranted law that has yet to be proven necessary, started by a group with what I believe to be hidden agendas hiding behind a pitch of fear and claims of safety issues on the lake.

Let it come, we shall be hearing a lot more from WINNFABS when nothing changes. What's next?

As far as registrations for non-powered vessels my intent was to touch in the fact that this new law will cost $$$, extra equipment, more manpower, etc to attempt to enforce. Looking at how MP is funded the people asking for this should also consider the costs involved to put it in place, and should have a plan to help fund it. Spreading it out a bit so that not only the power boaters are sucking up the cost would be good. If this is truly about safety then I would think that users of non-powered vessels who "will benefit" :laugh: from this should help fund it.

Maybe those big, fast moving cars should slow down. There are speed limits ya know...:D

the lecherous energizer bunny:liplick:

45 mph
 

As Gavia Immer said above, double and triple the 45 mph and you're into serious territory. The question is when are you into dangerous territory. There is no single number that's applicable to all places, all times and all situations. A speed that's perfectly appropriate for the Broads on a Wednesday afternoon is not likely to be a safe speed to use just outside of the Weirs on a July 4'th weekend with the sun in your eyes. Seems to me that 45 mph is neither fish nor fowl. It's too restrictive in a lot of times and places and not safe in others. I understand that such things are compromises but this one is just wrong. I would urge people to think about how they would encode what they think is speed proper for the circumstances into a rule. I would ask to people not what they feel is safe but what they know is unsafe (and how they know it).

Ahem...
 

'Happy that only two license plates were needed to get a likeable radar reading.
:rolleye2:
Marine radar in other states (as posed below) doesn't require any license plate:
http://ocean.floridamarine.org/bluew...atee_radar.jpg

As Dave R points out, speeds over 45 will produce rooster tails (plus a huge spray plume) that will identify it as excessive to the MPs.

Any news event on the lake will collect as many as seven MPs at one time: evasion is futile.

From Wikipedia:
"...Basic civil liberties include freedom of association, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech. There are also the rights to due process, to a fair trial and to privacy..."

Form a line at the rear to get that essential civil liberty for speedboating.

Last I checked, that's the way it's supposed to work. :(

"...Basic civil liberties include freedom of association, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech. There are also the rights to due process, to a fair trial and to privacy..."

In case you haven't noticed.....we've already lost most of these:(

Don't be sad
 

Amazing, how did that happen ? I mean with no speed limits and all them dangerous boats out there creating all that anarchy, I'd have thought we'd have dozens of collisons each and every year. That not being the case it seems it's not quite so bad out there after all. That would seem to be a case for :) and not your :( .

Hmmmm . . . could it perhaps be, just perhaps of course, that the rest of us are being hyper-vigilant in our attempts to avoid potential collisions because it's sometimes such a mess out there. I know of many boaters who give way or change course when there are fast boats around because of bad experiences they've had with high-performance boats not giving way.

Now, that could happen with any size boat, of course (not giving way). My point is that some people are driving more defensively and this could contribute to fewer accidents.

I agree I think that we are all being SUPER aware of our surroundings now. You have to be. I have had to alter my course for ALL kinds of boats. I have never had to alter my course for a boat going very fast. Not saying it does not happen it just has not happened to me. I think that people being aware that boating while fun is also needs to be taken seriously is helping. I for one am very happy that we have not had another collision and hope that we never have another.;) ;)

So your solution to the "mess" would be to institute speed limit and do away with defensive "driving"? I LIKE that other boaters operate in a "hyper-vigilant" manner, that's how anyone operating a boat should be; keeps us from hitting kayaks and such. I don't think a speed limit should stop us from being hyper-vigilant, boats are dangerous machine when operated carelessly.

Other than in a collision avoidance move, if a boater gives way when they are the stand on vessel, they are breaking the law. Perhaps it's these boaters who give way when they should stand on, solely due to the type of boats around them, that are the cause of the "mess".

If by "mess", you mean congestion, a speed limit will do nothing to relieve it.

No, Dave, you know I don't mean to do away with defensive driving. Don't twist words into ridiculous conclusions to serve your own point.

What I'm saying is that sometimes we have to slow down and give way to high-performance boats because they are going to cross in front of our bow whether they have the right of way or not, simply because they have the horse-power to do it. That is what I mean by driving-defensively: collision avoidance. I've seen several boats slow down to a near stop to avoid colliding with a fast, give-way that had gunned it across their bow. If they hadn't done so, they would have passed within feet of the other boat (at best). And what if the faster boat had slowed down as it was crossing the slower boat's bow? Collision.


These boaters were not causing the problems, they were avoiding otherwise inevitable accidents - and, I believe, this is what we were discussing: why there are fewer accidents even though it sometimes like the Wild West out there.

Defensive driving is common sense, however ...
 

Boating is, by nature, significantly more complicated than driving a car because it involves operating on a largely unrestricted 360 degree surface. Even though the rules say you are primarily responsible for a smaller range where you are the give way vessel, it would be foolish not to be aware of all vessels anywhere around you. As pointed out, it would be foolish, and illegal, not to take action to avoid an anticipated collision. Defensive boating undoubtedly contributes to keeping the accident numbers down in the state.

That said, in the case where a vessel is operating as described, they have already violated the right-of-way regulations and also safe passage if they had come within a few feet of another boat. Since the operator is clearly a law breaking bonehead, what difference would the existence of a speed limit make? Would the "slower" boat have felt so secure that a speed limit would protect him that he would take no defensive action? I hope not. Would the bonehead realize that he was violating the speed limit although he is oblivious and unconcerned about the other laws he was breaking? I doubt it. Would the marine patrol, now armed with the mother of all laws, the speed limit, magically arrive to pull the scofflaw over. It would shock the heck out of me.

I have been boating on Winni for 12 years, longer than some, far less than others. I would note that the scenario described has indeed happened to me, multiple times every year, with one difference. I have never had it happen with a performance boat. All sorts of other boats, yes, even some unpowered ones. I don't deny that some performance boat operators might fall victim to the same lack of judgment that obviously infects so many boat operators on the lake, however it's not the type of boat that causes the problem, its the ignorance of the operator.

We have all the regulations we need to maintain safe boating. We need to continue to educate boaters, try to instill a sense of responsibility and boating courtesy, and enforce the laws we have. I'm not saying it's an easy or quick fix but in the long run it's the only thing that will really make a difference.

Regardless of who is the stand on boat or the give way boat, the captains of both boats are ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE for the safety of thier boat and are REQUIRED to do everything possible to avoid a collison. This means that on occasion, the stand on boat will need to give way. When in doubt of the other boats intentions, assess the situation, and if neccesary slow down or stop.

As far as some of the arguments presented by the pro-speed limit folks, the reality is we have more boats using the lake than ever, yet our accident rate is down. There have been no fatalities since 2002 as the result of a collision between boats. We can argue if its because of boater education or just better vigilance, but the fact remains... more boats, less accidents!

Woodsy

Accidents: Weather Trumps Education
 

1) Psychologists say hyper-vigilance is exhausting: add sun, waves, wakes, alcohol, and inadequate hydration, and you have a recipe for tragedy.

2) Powerboating, at least, shouldn't be physically draining. Describing your own boat as "twitchy" at 50 mph, I'd sure hope the operator—and any boaters nearby—would be hydrated, sober, and attentive to those on the edge of control.

1) The boating public has no access here to Marine Patrol report Boating Accidents 2002-2006.

Opponents credit education with the sudden accident downturn; however, on-line testing has been discontinued by the NHMP, citing their own poor administration of the test.

We see only what NHRBA opponents want us to see. (As previously cited, NHRBA has that report in hand).

2) IMHO, any reduction in accidents can be credited to Mother Nature:

For 2006, more rained-out weekends than I can ever remember.
For 2005, Mee'n'Mac opines fewer Winni boaters than in 2004. Or here.
For 2004, Fish & Game reported a "rainy and cool" summer.
For 2003, The state experienced a "rainy" summer.
For 2002, Our wakeup call. And dry summer. An extremely dry summer.
For 2001, FLL opined that attitude-change WILL take place:

365 days after FLL's post, letters appeared in print saying a fatality was inevitable—IF the Marine Patrol continues to allow lake anarchy. Two subsequent letters agreed—written even while unaware that a 4½-ton boat had crushed a Winnipesaukee retiree on his "small" 22-foot boat. It was not a good weekend.

Citation needed. (Citations always needed at Woodsypedia.) :)

The best vigilance has been by NH on their own on-line Boater Education. Even though initiated and authorized by NH, they discounted their real value last year.

Woodsypedia again: citation needed.

If fewer accidents have resulted, inclement weather is a greater factor in fewer boats on the lake.

Higher gas prices would produce fewer miles traveled per boat.

Primer for 2002:

Angry boater: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44802
Blame MP: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44788
Blind MPs: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44792
Get serious: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44838
Out of Control: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44854

Phew!

Your ability to correlate the mental illnesses of war veterans with operating a boat on Winnipesaukee is a bigger stretch than inferring "twitchy" means "on the edge of control".

Quoting sources from a site called "Dementia.com" explains it perfectly though...:rolleye2:

APS

Reading the tragic story of that night as it unfolds is a good reminder of what the number one problem was and still is, booze.

It's about judgement
 

Is there anyone who would seriously argue that passing a 45 MPH speed limit makes it OK to go that fast in the fog on a fourth of July weekend on Meredith bay?
Safe operation of a boat has nothing to do with lake wide speed limits and everything to do with boater education and common courtesy. A capable boat and skipper are perfectly able to navigate the broads safely at 90 MPH on a typical weekday with light traffic.
On the other hand, a poorly designed, overpowered boat in the hands of an inexperienced, incapable operator has no business leaving the dock.
Noise is not a function of speed; there are laws on the books regarding acceptable noise levels. Existing laws should be enforced and enforceable.
Passing speed limit legislation may make some feel good, but would be difficult to enforce. Furthermore, most boat’s speedometers and even gps units don’t accurately measure speed over water. Many of the classic wooden boats from years past we romanticize are incapable of obeying the current definition of “headway speed,” and maintaining steering control. Speed limits are for automobiles not boats.
What is “safe” is best left to the judgment of a capable captain. For the record, I don’t own a go fast boat and like the peace and quiet of island living, but I respect that others who enjoy the adrenalin rush of a fast boat have a right to the lake as well. If they are courteous, safe and sober operators, more power to them.

speed vs safe boating
 

While I am in favor of a speed limit, I am more in favor of people abiding by the existing laws. It has been proven that in the most part the faster a boat goes the smaller the wake, but that also depends on the hull of a boat.

I think Kayakers, canoeist have their place and their rights, But one thing I did not see on here and it is their responsibility. They are low in the water and sometimes in different water conditions are hard to see. I think they need to have some type of flag pole (fishing pole) with a colored triangled flag. or something like a divers flag. Attached to the kayak or canoe. Can't stay 150' away if I cannot see them.

Speed limit in the harbors/bays near islands I think is important, but not in the middle of the broads.

Kayak cut in Half
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Birdsall While I am in favor of a speed limit, I am more infavor of people abiding by the exsisting laws. It has been proven that in the most part the faster a boat goes the smaller the wake, but that also depends on the hull of a boat.

And the faster the boat goes, the less time the operator has to avoid hitting anything in its path.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

Quote:

I think Kayakers, canoeist haave their place and their rights, But one thing I did not see on here and it is their responsibilty. They are low in the water and sometimes in different water conditions are hard to see. I think they need to have some type of flag pole (fishing pole) with a colored triangled flag. or something like a divers flag. Attached to the kayak or canoe. Can't stay 150' away if I cannot see them.

<O:p</O:p
From a long distance, the most visible part of a paddler is the moving, reflective paddle. I can almost always spot another kayaker when they are still a mile or more away.

My sea kayak is only 23 inches wide. <O:p</O:pA flag on most sea kayaks would make them very unstable, especially on windy days. And a flag would make doing a recovery roll impossible. <O:p</O:p

This guy’s kayak was bright yellow, with a red and yellow sail, but his kayak still go cut in half by a speedboat.

<O:p</O:p

And you guys claim that my fear of being run over by a high speed powerboat is irrational.

ADDED: This is the letter, that goes with the above photo (It was in AFLOAT Magazine:

<O:p</O:p

I would like to read the article that you posted the picture from. Could you please post the link.
Thank You

Yes, please post the link to the article. I find it hard to believe that a high speed boat hitting that kayak would have done such small damage. I doubt highly that anyone was in that kayak when it got hit. Something seems fishy...

US Coast Guard report
 

It's a little dated... and a big file but check out Chapter 4 Boating accidents stats. Biggest cause... human error, careless operation and drunk boaters.

http://www.bts.gov/publications/mari...pdf/entire.pdf

Sadly, no laws passed will solve the biggest problem(s). Captain Boanhead and Captain Tipsy.

I have to come down on the side of more enforcement and stiifer fines as opposed to more rules. Maybe we need to make it VERY expensive to get out on the lake if you aren't willing to do so safely within the rules that already exist.