never were truer words spoken...
 

...or typed, as the case may be.

Maybe I'm a wee bit of a cheapie

That made me snort my coffee. Seriously, FLL, stop with the comedy routine.:laugh:

You are a very sensible person, scuba! Wolfeboro also has a full time fire dept.

Hey ScubaJay.....it's interesting to hear about the local fire depts and how they work together.

I don't know....it just seems to me that it is more a case of the firefighter doing the job than the fire truck. Getting the job done is probably more to do with people and training and less than with a brand new fire truck.

If I were a selectman I would go search around for a good used fire truck, about 75-90% less in price than brand new, and go buy a new gallon of red Rustoleum paint.....etc.

Surely, there must be many small town and out-in-the-country fire depts, from all over, that go
this route. Big cities with full time, big budget depts buy new, and the small towns buy their used equipment and do repairs. A fire truck probably has a very long life what with fire dept maintenance. Hydraulics, pumps, and engines are designed to be renewed, rebuilt or replaced. Frames get welded to a fix and that old 'ruck' becomes a 'new truck', good-to-go, to the next fire.

Firefighters and not fire trucks are the dominant factor in fighting a fire. I imagine you can take a brand new truck and quickly break it through operator misuse. Is that what happened with Meredith's new truck?

For a small community to be buying $750,000 fire trucks: It's all about what it can afford and not what it really needs. Necessity is still the mother of invention. And, as everyone has heard: Why buy new, when you can buy a good used truck?

:patriot:www.bradfordfireapparatus.com:patriot:

This reminds me of the kid that won't quit poking you in the same spot.

LMAO, one of the funniest posts I have read in a long time.

FLL, why not run for an elected position, I'd say Treasurer, then you control the check book AND you can still complain about the things they want to do with taxpayer money.

Oh boy, careful what you ask for, FLL would have you all paying a fat income tax if it were up to him. Forget politics, keep posting here Less.

It took 11 years of planning and saving to get this new piece of fire equipment for Meredith. Below are minutes of a 10/06/08 Board Of Selectmen meeting that talks about the purchase:

Since 1998, funds have been set aside in an ETF for the financing of fire equipment. In order to
meet the demands of a growing Town, the Fire Department is seeking to authorize the use of
existing funds in the ETF to purchase an aerial ladder truck. Fire Chief Ken Jones explained
how the decision was made to purchase a Pierce 100’ aerial ladder. The Department spoke with
different manufacturers and viewed apparatus at the New England fire chief’s annual meeting in
Springfield, Massachusetts. The Pierce model includes a bucket that provides for more safety
than a traditional ladder. It is anticipated that the truck will serve the Town for 25-30 years. If
the Town authorizes a payment of $727,000 within 10 days of the signing of the contract, it will
save roughly $40,000 on the total cost of the truck. This represents a greater savings than what
would be realized if the funds remain in an interest bearing account for the ten months it will
take to build the truck. The balance is due upon delivery of the truck. A performance bond
guaranty will be issued to the Town for the $727,000 payment.

Dialogue ensued regarding purchasing a demo model at a lower price. Upon investigation, the
Department learned that it would be more costly to purchase a demo model because they include
many extra features that the Town does not need.
The Board agreed that setting funds aside in an ETF for the purchase of the equipment has
worked extremely well for the Town. The Chair directed Co-Interim Town Manager Brenda
Vittner to investigate what bank the irrevocable letter of credit will be drawn on.
Selectman Palm moved that the Board authorize the expenditure of $760,897 from the ETF, and
signing of the bid proposal by Administrative Services after their review, and obtain a completed
performance guarantee from Pierce and their bank. Seconded by Selectman Worsman.
Resident Dave Sticht understood that a demo truck was going to be built to the Town’s
specifications, and the Town would purchase it at a reduced cost. Selectman Palm told Mr.
Sticht that upon further investigation, the Company was not interested in that option.
Resident Keith True commended Selectman Palm and the current Chief for saving the Town
money on the purchase. The purchase of a replacement truck was a dream ten years ago, and is
now a reality.

Interesting. At least it looks like someone had the foresight to see a new truck was needed. Does it say how much the town saved over the period of time for the truck?

Having said that, I can completely understand planning to get a fire truck when needed. However, is it not a matter of if the town really needs it, then maybe something else needs to go unfunded? (Maybe something that is not tied to public safety?)

As this has peaked my interest in terms of town spending, I tried to look up some history for Meredith concerning capital purchases and found the below from the 2008 town report. Not always sure if I’m interpreting these things correctly but if you look at the spending trend (not including any 2009 purchases such as the Fire Truck), it appears that:

For a 7 year period from 1998-2004 Capital Purchases/Debt were ~ $7.6M
For a 4 year period from 2005-2008 Capital Purchases/Debt were ~ $8.9M

That’s a 15% increase from past history in almost half as many years.

1988 Cotton Hill Sewer Bond $603,200
1989 Library Expansion Bond $750,000
1988 Water System Improvement Bond $2,000,000
1994 Cataldo Road Sewer Bond $229,000
1998 Westbury Road Sewer Bond $55,000
1998 Wagon Wheel Sewer Bond $211,874
1999 Pleasant Street Bond $1,400,000
2001 Neal Shore Sewer Bond $200,000
2002 Plymouth St/Rte 3 North Bond $948,770
2002 Plymouth St/Rte 3 North Bond $637,467
2004 Conservation Bond $500,000
2004 East Bluff Village Sewer Bond $115,381
2005 Community Center Bond $3,500,000
2007 Police Station Bond $1,500,000
2007 Bundled Water/Sewer/Roads $1,220,000
2008 Fire Station Bond $2,292,882
2008 Page Pond Conservation $400,000

Today's Nov 18 www.citizen.com has an article on Laconia's new $879,000 - 100' aerial tower truck, and how the 20 year old truck it is replacing was sold to a Vermont fire dept for $20,000.

Old fire trucks never die, they just get sold off to another fire dept which has less taxpayer money to spend. No doubt, a smaart buy for a small Vermont volunteer fire dept who will renew-repair-replace and keep it going for another twenty years.

Property taxes are not all that based on one's ability to pay, and this truck will be paid with the Laconia property tax.

The Citizen article says that the fire dept has recently been training to operate the new truck at the now closed Freudenberg-NOK car parts factory on Hounsell Ave. Approximately 130 Freudenberg employees lost their good paying, manufactoring jobs there in 2008. As Laconia property tax payers who have lost their jobs they are probably not too pleased paying for a new $879,000 truck when the old one could have been kept going.

FLL got it.
 

Just got my Laconia tax bill with a big fat $300 increase for 6 months! Being unemployed for over a year, I am not pleased with the new truck. =(

I had a feeling there going to be a 'one up' when a neighboring fire department gets a new 'toy'.

Broadhopper,
Hang in there, something will give and hopefully you will be back to work. We are all hoping your unemployment will be over soon.

Have you considered what your home owners' insurance rates would climb to if your town did not have adequate fire safety equipment?

Yes, the equipment at your local fire station is audited by home owners' insurance company's underwriters and it is a HUGE factor in what you pay for rates. All Capital Improvement Plan items (such as this fire truck) are also considered when your town's credit rating is factored.

I would assume that the purchase was made via the Municipal buying plan, which allows for payments to be made over several years and gives towns better buying power when they join the plan. The money is raised via Warrant articles or at the town meeting.

Alton is seeking to purchase a new ladder truck this year and a no-frills model would be about $600K, I believe. The old truck has some rust issues and although it passed inspecting this year, that may not be true next year. A ladder truck is NOT something that you want to have a breakdown with or have to use as just a tank truck, which would be the fate with the old truck here in Alton. Planning ahead is best - for all.

Well.......Alton could have purchased Laconia's twenty year old, ladder truck for $20,000 as did a fire dept from Vermont. Why....right now....that old Laconia ladder truck is probably sitting in a Vermont garage getting a thorough inspection of everything from bumper to bumper. And, in three months time, whatever needed repairing will be fixed and the old ladder truck will be good-to-go, and in use for many more years.

According to the Citizen article the old Laconia ladder truck was said to have the equivalent of 300,000 miles of use. As many readers here probably are not aware, it is pretty common for a commercial truck to be kept going until it gets to 900,000 or 1,000,000 miles so 300,000 miles is considered low miles.

Anyone know what Vermont town now has the ladder truck? Possibly, they have a website talking about their terrific $20,000 new-used ladder truck purchase, and how it came from a very wealthy NH waterfront town.

My last post on this issue....
 

....because it's not worth my time to continue to have to go against misinformation and speculation.

Firstly, the newspaper article also stated the many reason why the truck was needing replacement (repairs, overweight,etc) so if one goes to the article FLL chose to only quote some of, that info would be easily gleaned.

The 1989 ladder truck was not only not sufficient for our needs but was not up to National Fire Standards which call for a fully enclosed cab with seating for all riders with appropriate seatbelts, only one rear axle which is no longer allowed in that with that weight / load design along with lack ability to hold the equipment needed for operation. It simply had out grown its useful life for our community. This vehicle was SOLD for $20,000. No where does it state how much that the next community will have to put into safety upgrades, corrosion repair/abatement, paint and other items to get into service into that community. It is not a plug and play truck for them, they will have to fork out more for certain. The truck originally cost over $500,000 so extrapolate that loss of value out on your brand new car and see what the percentage of resale value is and see what the final figure is. Take that tiny chunk of change and see what kind of used car you can buy and it's quality. Yep, thats right. Same thing here....

While I feel the sting of increases in tax bills as well as I am a property owner and taxpayer, I find issue with Broadhoppers comment. While that $300 increase plain takes a bite out of the wallet I can feel quite safe in guessing (high no doubt) that out of that $300 a miniscule amount went towards that new ladder truck. I would be shocked if the individual household paid more then the cost of a cup of coffee towards it. Have issues all you want as it is your right, but that truck didn't do the damage to your finances.

The estimate on miles is because we can not pinpoint a value of the wear and tear on the frame and motor of the truck while it is use as a ladder truck at a call or simple idling at the emergency scene. They have to estimate the engine hours into miles somehow and I honestly don't know the formula but I can assure you it is much more work on the truck and motor then the odometer implies.

And Broadhopper this truck was on the CIP for the city since before I was hired here in Christmas season 2001 so no "one upsmanship" was occurring. THis was a well thought out and planned replacement.

And FLL, last night I drove the "old" ladder truck to reported house fire. It is sitting at the Central Station, still in service, awaiting the other truck to get placed in service. So that "Vermont" department will just have to wait until we make the swap to the new truck so we don't lessen the protection we are offering to our citizens.

Also in the CIP is to replace the two old engines (30 yrs and 23 yrs respectively) with a new engine, and new pumper/tanker in the next few years. But don't worry, I rounded up the truck committee and we are off to check out a prospective and more FLL friendly (wallet wise) new unit that will be a cost effective unit, heck, we wont even have to air condition this beauty.....

A big thank you to Scubajay1153.

Well said scubajay!

Thanks for the post ScubaJay and all the items on the trucks. It's a lot easier to understand a truck than a new building since everyone has experience with their car, and mileage , and repairs. You know, trucks are just like cars, except they are bigger.

There used to be an old fire pump carraige on display at the Meredith Mobil which looked like it got pulled by a single horse. Now, that would probably be very cost efficient.......a horse drawn fire pumper! No expensive diesel fuel needed......just a bag of Blue Seal to feed Ole Lucille.....at her daily feeding time.

By the way, I'm look'n for a job driv'n a tractor trailer, fire dept aerial tower with a big water tank and a big pump. Yes, I have the cdl-a, haz-mat, tanker, air brakes & med card endorsements. Where's my job? Maybe, in Vermont? :patriot::patriot::patriot:

How's about I drive the old Laconia ladder truck to Vermont, and when I get there I say "Hello Vermont', and by the way, I come with your new-used $20,000 truck deal, as a driver.......what a deal!

ScubaJay
 

Guess I owe you an apology. It just that the timing kind of throw things out of perspective. Can't argue with your logic.

The city manager mention in the papers that asses values are down and thus raised the tax rate. While my tax rate is up the assess value did not go down. So I got a good bite! Ouch!

I hear that taxes are higher in VT.... :D

I can't resist
 

Who knew? I thought my rear end was holding its value quite well.:laugh:

So, a high tax Vermont fire dept purchases a 20-year old, $20,000 ladder truck from Laconia, and low tax Laconia purchases a new 2009 $850,000, 100' aerial tower. And, from where does low tax Laconia get all that $850,000?

One could easily assume it would be the other way around, with Vermont buying new, what with their high Vermont taxes. So, how can NH be a low tax state if it can afford to buy new for $850,000?

Beyond my huffing & puffing here....I still say...the 18000 population of Laconia would be better served if the town kept the old truck and used the $850,000 for dental cleaning & check-ups and oral health paid out to local dentists and oral hygienists. More Laconians would benefit from that than from a new truck.

And, do the Laconia firefighters already get dental insurance as part of their pay package?

Time to end this thread!?

I'm not sure why I'm doing this...
 

One could easily assume it would be the other way around, with Vermont buying new, what with their high Vermont taxes. So, how can NH be a low tax state if it can afford to buy new for $850,000?


I think Scubajay has done a phenomenal job of explaining why equipment like this is needed, how safety requirements change, and how little of an impact an expense like this has on your overall taxes. Rather than accept his information, you sit and pick at the subject like a scab on your knee with lame, baseless arguments. You're relentless. It's exhausting to read and demeaning to all local FDs trying to save lives.

Until you have the statistics of both towns so you can compare income and expense information, you're comparing apples and oranges. If you have such an intense need to find out why equipment like this is necessary, why don't you use some of your free time and go volunteer for the Meredith FD? You can also consider a run for selectman, so you have more input into Meredith spending.

Well said twoplustwo

I'll second that motion!

...ok...so I'll answer my question......yes, the Laconia firefighters do indeed get dental coverage as it is a full-time fire dept as opposed to an on-call dept in Meredith.

And, while the 5 Meredith selectmen's position is considered to be a part time volunteer position, it does include a health and dental insurance policy.

If you are a Laconia or Meredith property tax payer, then you know very well if you have health & dental for yourself, while at the same time your property taxes are paying the health & dental for the town employees such as police, fire, town, school, & selectmen.

....and where is the thankyou coming from them?

They do? :confused:

I do?
 

Another BOLD LIE by FLL!

I won't bite to hard......because I DO NOT HAVE DENTAL and can't pay for the damage it will do to my mouth. The FF's and Police in the City DO NOT HAVE DENTAL because the City REFUSES to entertain the thought of offering it to us. We continue to ask, they continue deny. Period.

siksukr, we need you again...
 

Uf da. Make it stop.:(

Thank you for paying me to do my job. I endeavor to do the best possible job for you, the citizens of my town, for as long as I am in your employ.

Hi ScubaJay....you obviously know about the specifics of your job so I owe you an apology for suggesting Laconia gives you dental insurance coverage.

As far as the Meredith Selectmen, I base that on what I read in the Laconia Daily Sun from aproximately Sept 2008. As I recall, the five selectmen, according to the LaDaSun were discussing ways to keep costs down, and someone, probably Chairman Peter Brothers was reported to have looked around at all four other selectmen and say something like "I believe this will be the best that we can do unless you will agree to all give up your health insurance benefits. Looking around the room, no one raised their hand, and the discussion moved on." (a paraphrase from memory)

I'm looking around in the LaDaSun search engine, and will get back with the exact quote. But, that piece of info struck a chord (boing!) in my brain and stayed with me.

Again, ScubaJay....sorry for the false info on my part....nothing personal....your work is appreciated....especially when it's a real fire like at my own house, and not just a false alarm somewhere else! fll

The selectmen in Wolfeboro get health insurance too.

Are you for or against proper insurance for municipal employees? My boss thanks ME for my efforts when I get my check. Only a rat of an employer would fail to arrange some type of health insurance for employees who work a significant number of hours.

Are you for or against that fire truck? The new fire station?

I'm losing track of your positions due to jumping around on the various topics you've introduced in this thread, plus the opinions and counter-opinions you've expressed not only on other members' but on your own previous posts here. Would you be so kind as to say "I am for/against this." so all readers know what you are trying to say?

Thank you in advance for your consideration!

Right you are 2&2
 

This reminds me of the kid that won't quit poking you in the same spot.
This reminds me of the kid that won't quit poking you in the same spot.
This reminds me of the kid that won't quit poking you in the same spot.
This reminds me of the kid that won't quit poking you in the same spot.
This reminds me of the kid that won't quit poking you in the same spot.
This reminds me of the kid that won't quit poking you in the same spot.
Boy that spot is sore.:emb::(

Here's one for people to consider. While high tax Vermont makes do with a second hand, 20 year old, $20,000 ladder truck purchased from Laconia, low tax Laconia purchases a new $850,000 ladder truck.

So, what does this tell you?

So, who is really low tax, and who is really high tax: Vermont or New Hampshire?

Yeah. That's what I thought you'd say.

Have a nice day!

FLL, I will tell you what I know from my wife, who although was born in Maine, spend her school life in Vermont and transfered to a NH school in high school. That even though Vermont does have higher taxes, they put a considerable margin of those tax dollars into their school systems. Their schools are far superior to what is offered at most schools in NH that are twice the size of the ones in VT.

When she transfered into her final school in NH she had enough credits to graduate a year early without having to double up on courses.

FLL, does this town in VT have a name so that we can compare the population base against Laconia, not that it matters, but it might enlighten you on how they choose to spend their dollars.

The Big Picture
 

Just to toss my two cents in and to make my position clear on the truck, if the fire or police departments need something then I’m all for it if done in a proper purchasing/bid manner. Having said that and given the fact that Meredith may have needed these things in order to assure the people that help protect and respond to the community are in the best position to help, can someone tell me why given the need for these expensive purchases (New Police Station/Re-Furbished Fire Station/New Fire Truck >> Totaling over $4.5M In town floated bonds) would we need to have an additional $3.5M community center?

Don’t get me wrong, it is certainly nice to have but with all the other necessary expenses and a rising tax rate, why would a fiscally responsible team approve/proceed with this?

Attached to this post is the 2008 tax burden by state.

VT is 8th and NH is 46th on the list for tax burden.

VT is 22nd and NH is 10th on the list for income per capita.

FLL - you're welcome to explore the cost per pupil, social programs, and other expenditures that VT has vs. what NH spends on. They raise more money and spend more money, is the short of it. Perhaps the $20K engine was purchased because it wasn't well planned for, but that's just an assumption... ;)

The tax burden for each state can be found in the attached chart. Vermont ranked 7th highest, Mass was # 8 and New Hampshire is # 47. I like the fact that NH has a small government and support keeping limits on it. The converse is poor Massachusets. The are # 8 and trying to be #1. I believe that is why now support so many refugees from the south.
Even if some of the facts seem suspect I do enjoy FLL's postings as they challenge us to read and research.
750 K does seem like a lot of money for a truck. I am not qualified to judge the ROI but I do hope that it is never used for it's intended purpose.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/eco...den-per-capita