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-   -   When does it end? How can it? (https://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25547)

Chris M 04-22-2020 08:30 AM

I find it sad how many people so strongly advocate safety over freedom.

I get it, folks are scared, and many people look to government like a toddler looks to a parent.

But I have news for you... the state didn't come into existence to keep us safe - it came into existence to keep us free.

You don't get to use every scary situation to use the apparatus to club the rest of us and expect us all to perpetually grin and bear it. Enough is enough.

Not to Worry 04-22-2020 09:33 AM

Who told you that?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ (Post 332336)
The biggest risk to the population has passed. Curves have began to flatten for a week. Time to begin repairing the damage


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Just curious where did you get that bit of fake news? CDC...I do not think so. The worst is most likely yet to come.

rsmlp 04-22-2020 10:04 AM

safe?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ (Post 332336)
The biggest risk to the population has passed. Curves have began to flatten for a week. Time to begin repairing the damage

New high in the number of US deaths yesterday. Risk is still plentiful. Moreover, MA the new "hotspot" in the US. It would belie credulity to think this summer will not be super risky.

FlyingScot 04-22-2020 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris M (Post 332521)
I find it sad how many people so strongly advocate safety over freedom.

I get it, folks are scared, and many people look to government like a toddler looks to a parent.

But I have news for you... the state didn't come into existence to keep us safe - it came into existence to keep us free.

You don't get to use every scary situation to use the apparatus to club the rest of us and expect us all to perpetually grin and bear it. Enough is enough.

Safety vs freedom is a false choice--it is not either/or--in a complex public health crisis we should look to the government to do both. So far, our local Governors Sununu and Baker seem to be doing a good job with the balance.

Mr. V 04-22-2020 11:57 AM

Only a fool walks into a buzzsaw, just as only a fool refuses to comply with such common sense actions as social distancing in order to protect themselves and others from a clear and present danger.

I'm sure the gov't wouldn't need to shut down the economy if people would all voluntarily adopt social distancing, but such a unified response would never happen voluntarily: alas, "We've met the enemy, and it is us."

It takes a stern captain to pilot a ship of fools through treacherous shoals.

Seaplane Pilot 04-22-2020 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingScot (Post 332543)
Safety vs freedom is a false choice--it is not either/or--in a complex public health crisis we should look to the government to do both. So far, our local Governors Sununu and Baker seem to be doing a good job with the balance.

Safety and freedom can coexist. These anti-Constitution, strongarm tactics imposed by out of control politicians (and carried out by police) have no basis in "safety" whatsoever. Just ask this poor mother:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronav...ian-city-hall/

Mr. V 04-22-2020 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot (Post 332563)
These anti-Constitution, strongarm tactics imposed by out of control politicians (and carried out by police) have no basis in "safety" whatsoever. Just ask this poor mother:

Baloney.

She's a scofflaw, throw the book at her.

Roy_Hobbs 04-22-2020 03:42 PM

Against all of my better judgement I’m actually going to comment, knowing full well it won’t change anyone’s mind. Regarding that article posted above, (excerpt below) I hope those who use the “this wouldn’t have been an issue if they would have just listened to the police” argument do so consistently. It would not surprise me if some people (and this is NOT directed at you Seaplane Pilot, I don’t pretend to know enough about you to make this statement) use that argument in other situations but not in this case.

From the article: “Police said they made several attempts to get Brady to follow the rules and she refused to comply.”

Regardless, Here’s to the warm summer days to come, regardless of when, where or to what degree we are able to enjoy them!


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Chris M 04-24-2020 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. V (Post 332298)
Liberty helps to cause it; sheltering helps to prevent it.

Liberty is freedom of choice. Like my body, my choice. Free to choose sheltering in place. Freedom to choose isn't the enemy.

The enemy is nominds like you who don't respect freedom of choice.

Sue Doe-Nym 04-24-2020 10:09 AM

No no on name calling
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris M (Post 332772)
Liberty is freedom of choice. Like my body, my choice. Free to choose sheltering in place. Freedom to choose isn't the enemy.

The enemy is nominds like you who don't respect freedom of choice.

Your response is pretty harsh. How about disagreeing without being disagreeable? Cutting down on snarky comments would be a move in the right direction.

Susie Cougar 04-24-2020 11:22 AM

I just read that the Sandwich Fair has been canceled for 2020! This is not until Columbus weekend in October!

AC2717 04-24-2020 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susie Cougar (Post 332805)
I just read that the Sandwich Fair has been canceled for 2020! This is not until Columbus weekend in October!

ridiculous, and this is getting way out of hand. It is now an excuse maker which has been a concern for a while.

Mr. V 04-24-2020 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris M (Post 332772)
Liberty is freedom of choice. Like my body, my choice. Free to choose sheltering in place. Freedom to choose isn't the enemy. The enemy is nominds like you who don't respect freedom of choice.

In a way the current situation is similar to times when our great nation was on a wartime footing: think WWII, for example.

The gov't enacted many draconian laws which severely impacted ones liberty interests, and it was deemed appropriate by the courts and the general public due to the perceived consequences of not adopting such harsh laws.

We interred Japanese nationals and seized their property (didn't do it to German nationalss though; gee, I wonder why not?).

More to the point we adopted very strict rationing: the law said no matter how much money you had, no matter what your need, this is all you got.

Many people felt that the rationing laws shouldn't and didn't apply to them, and they turned to the black market, which undermined the national effort.

Outdoorsman 04-24-2020 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susie Cougar (Post 332805)
I just read that the Sandwich Fair has been canceled for 2020! This is not until Columbus weekend in October!

Concerns about the coronavirus pandemic have led organizers to cancel this year’s Stratham, Lancaster, Sandwich and Cheshire fairs.

https://www.unionleader.com/news/hea...lock_id=664693

4 for Boating 04-24-2020 05:13 PM

Did you already have it and did not know?
 
Seems like we are starting to find out that people were infected weeks before the alarm went off and the first hospital trigger. The latest estimates (Reported by NBC New York yesterday) for New York who is doing antibody testing now is that the death rate may be closer to .5. (Yes, worse than the flu - but one can only hope the number is closer to .5 than what has been reported in the past)

Going to be a lot of looking back on this down the road regarding what the best steps should have been. A lot easier to do after the fact we all know that.

One thing that jumps out to me is the sad aspect around nursing homes and how disproportionally they have been hit with the most susceptible population. One quarter of the deaths in NY have been at such institutions. Very, very sad.

The Real BigGuy 04-24-2020 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym (Post 332797)
Your response is pretty harsh. How about disagreeing without being disagreeable? Cutting down on snarky comments would be a move in the right direction.

I think some people don’t understand that their freedom of choice ends where it starts to effect others freedom to live safely. Kind of like someone choosing to drive down the road at 100 mph.[emoji107]


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FlyingScot 04-24-2020 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 for Boating (Post 332840)
Seems like we are starting to find out that people were infected weeks before the alarm went off and the first hospital trigger. The latest estimates (Reported by NBC New York yesterday) for New York who is doing antibody testing now is that the death rate may be closer to .5. (Yes, worse than the flu - but one can only hope the number is closer to .5 than what has been reported in the past)

Going to be a lot of looking back on this down the road regarding what the best steps should have been. A lot easier to do after the fact we all know that.

One thing that jumps out to me is the sad aspect around nursing homes and how disproportionally they have been hit with the most susceptible population. One quarter of the deaths in NY have been at such institutions. Very, very sad.

Today's Globe reported 49 people dead of covid in a single nursing home a couple of miles from my house. Their website gives total capacity as 135 beds. It's just horrific.

ApS 04-26-2020 12:32 PM

Why Are the Healthy Being Quarantined?
 
California doctors pressured to list deaths as COVID-19:

https://youtu.be/D5GDPCUUBEE

Major 04-26-2020 04:26 PM

From a dentist friend of mine -

More people are going to suffer the longer this shutdown is enforced than from the disease itself. Never in the history of this country have we quarantined healthy people. A big part of my job is about infection control and the longer we are quarantined the worse our immune systems are going to get and more people are going to get critically ill from this disease. What Fauci and the WHO are doing is going against most of what I was taught in dental school. We cannot stay quarantined until a vaccine, that could take years.


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Not to Worry 04-26-2020 04:44 PM

What ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Major (Post 333040)
From a dentist friend of mine -

More people are going to suffer the longer this shutdown is enforced than from the disease itself. Never in the history of this country have we quarantined healthy people. A big part of my job is about infection control and the longer we are quarantined the worse our immune systems are going to get and more people are going to get critically ill from this disease. What Fauci and the WHO are doing is going against most of what I was taught in dental school. We cannot stay quarantined until a vaccine, that could take years.


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Why would our immune systems get worse? That makes no sense whatsoever. You are right about one thing tough...people are going get critically ill if we reopen carelessly.

Also I would find a new dentist.

FlyingScot 04-26-2020 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major (Post 333040)
From a dentist friend of mine -

More people are going to suffer the longer this shutdown is enforced than from the disease itself. Never in the history of this country have we quarantined healthy people. A big part of my job is about infection control and the longer we are quarantined the worse our immune systems are going to get and more people are going to get critically ill from this disease. What Fauci and the WHO are doing is going against most of what I was taught in dental school. We cannot stay quarantined until a vaccine, that could take years.


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It always cracks me up when we rely upon "experts" in the wrong field--like dentists who are also immunologists/epidemiologists.

One of my crowns fell out a few weeks ago. When I called my dentist, she said she was not allowed to use a drill because the drilling aerosolizes liquid in the mouth, creating micro particles that are especially difficult to keep contained--they hang in the air. You might ask your dentist about that

Major 04-26-2020 05:49 PM

He’s a very smart guy who I trust implicitly, more than a career hack like Dr Fauci.

True story, I had a Navy dentist friend who reattached an amputated arm on a destroyer. He was the only doctor on board so he had to do it. Never underestimate the medical training of a dentist.

Fauci was the one telling us early on that the Chinese Coronavirus was not a big deal. Come to think about it, he was right! #overblown


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Mr. V 04-26-2020 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major (Post 333040)
Never in the history of this country have we quarantined healthy people.

Major, you portray yourself as a conservative who welcomes debate.

How do you feel about fact checking?

Your "dentist friend" should stick to filling cavities and not trying to revise American history: he and you are flat WRONG to claim as you have above.

We HAVE quarantined healthy people: we did it in 1918 to help combat the influenza pandemic sweeping the world at that time.

see: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/a...antine/609163/

Now I realize facts have a habit of getting the way of closely held beliefs, but for those who use their brains as a filter they can be illuminating.

Major 04-26-2020 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingScot (Post 333051)
It always cracks me up when we rely upon "experts" in the wrong field--like dentists who are also immunologists/epidemiologists.

One of my crowns fell out a few weeks ago. When I called my dentist, she said she was not allowed to use a drill because the drilling aerosolizes liquid in the mouth, creating micro particles that are especially difficult to keep contained--they hang in the air. You might ask your dentist about that


I lost part of a tooth about three weeks ago, and my dentist (different from my friend dentist) drilled (smoothed our the surface) before applying a temporary patch.


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Biggd 04-26-2020 07:42 PM

It's too bad that this whole thread has been infected by a virus.:(

Sue Doe-Nym 04-26-2020 07:48 PM

The case of the dangling arm
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Major (Post 333053)
He’s a very smart guy who I trust implicitly, more than a career hack like Dr Fauci.

True story, I had a Navy dentist friend who reattached an amputated arm on a destroyer. He was the only doctor on board so he had to do it. Never underestimate the medical training of a dentist.

Fauci was the one telling us early on that the Chinese Coronavirus was not a big deal. Come to think about it, he was right! #overblown


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Oh my! That’s amazing! I never knew that destroyers had arms! 🙄

FlyingScot 04-26-2020 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major (Post 333053)
He’s a very smart guy who I trust implicitly, more than a career hack like Dr Fauci.


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You trust your dentist who's not even your actual dentist more than Dr Fauci? I hope you never need a doctor.

Fauci has made gigantic contributions to medicine having nothing to do with his also extraordinary career in management. For those with an interest in real science and real medicine, here's his bio:

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/anthony-s-fauci-md-bio

Major 04-26-2020 08:18 PM

I don’t trust government bureaucrat hacks whose best interest is to promote their own agendas. Where were you when the esteemed doctor said there is nothing to worry about? And yes, I trust this dentist implicitly.


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Bigstan 04-26-2020 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym (Post 333071)
Oh my! That’s amazing! I never knew that destroyers had arms! 🙄

If you spend a millisecond thinking about what you just responded to you realize how not humorous it is..

Sue Doe-Nym 04-26-2020 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigstan (Post 333080)
If you spend a millisecond thinking about what you just responded to you realize how not humorous it is..

Big Stan, you need to lighten up, lad! We are all very stressed right now. I would NEVER make a joke about a person’s infirmity, but Major’s sentence structure (did the destroyer really have an amputated arm?) made my husband and me laugh hysterically. I think that most people would take my comment in the proper vein. Please relax.

Bigstan 04-26-2020 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym (Post 333083)
Big Stan, you need to lighten up, lad! We are all very stressed right now. I would NEVER make a joke about a person’s infirmity, but Major’s sentence structure (did the destroyer really have an amputated arm?) made my husband and me laugh hysterically. I think that most people would take my comment in the proper vein. Please relax.

I'm not stressed at all actually, I still fail to see the reason for all the hoopla these days, and yes I know that puts me in the minority.

It's just that I actually took the post as it was very obviously intended, as in he was on a destroyer while this occurred. If you don't know Destroyers don't get real doctors, they get pharmacist mates and maybe a visiting dentist now and again. All have cross training, and cover as needed. And if someone loses a limb or is otherwise wounded everyone jumps in, in this case I imagine to stabilize and get a couple major arteries flowing so said limb can be saved by more competent folks.

Sorry if you think that's a joke and I don't, different paths in life I guess.

Barney Bear 04-27-2020 06:06 AM

Loaded
 
Destroyers are well-armed. They even carry depth charges. :D

thinkxingu 04-27-2020 06:53 AM

Back to the OP: this is a pretty good summary of where we are and need to go. The assertion is that we need to move forward getting back to "normal," but the next year (at least) will need to be smart and driven by data: https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertp...navirus-facts/

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Major 04-27-2020 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. V (Post 333055)
Major, you portray yourself as a conservative who welcomes debate.

How do you feel about fact checking?

Your "dentist friend" should stick to filling cavities and not trying to revise American history: he and you are flat WRONG to claim as you have above.

We HAVE quarantined healthy people: we did it in 1918 to help combat the influenza pandemic sweeping the world at that time.

see: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/a...antine/609163/

Now I realize facts have a habit of getting the way of closely held beliefs, but for those who use their brains as a filter they can be illuminating.

I should modify the statement to be in my lifetime. I am not sure what was done in 1918. Honestly, I haven't read much about it. However, since then, we have had very serious epidemics like small pox, polio, MERS, H1N1, etc., and have never shut down the economy. I don't feel too bad if you have to go back to 1918 for an example. If we quarantined healthy people back then, I stand corrected.

ApS 04-27-2020 03:04 PM

Majority FYI...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkxingu (Post 333090)
Back to the OP: this is a pretty good summary of where we are and need to go. The assertion is that we need to move forward getting back to "normal," but the next year (at least) will need to be smart and driven by data: https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertp...navirus-facts/

The author wishes the US to return to full strength slowly.

He's also published in Forbes, which is Chinese majority-owned.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-28380634

Lakegeezer 04-27-2020 03:12 PM

Consider the medical staff
 
A major problem with opening things up now is the need to respect the medical staff. Without a supply of proper protection equipment and proven ways to treat the staff that get infected, they are acting as heroes. People on the front lines have repeatedly asked that people avoid getting sick so that they can minimize their personal risk. To open up now is to treat these heroes with disrespect. How can you ask someone to risk their life because you assumed the virus wouldn't hit you hard, so mingled with crowds and caught it bad. Could you blame the staff if they all called in sick during a non-essential driven surge of severe cases?

Once protective equipment is readily available (any day now?) and catching this novel virus has lower risks (many trials in progress), opening up and letting herd immunity build is a viable strategy, especially for those that don't come in contact with people at risk. People are still going to die from this virus, but we can't continue to ask the medical staff to be among them without sharing the pain.

Sue Doe-Nym 04-27-2020 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer (Post 333162)
A major problem with opening things up now is the need to respect the medical staff. Without a supply of proper protection equipment and proven ways to treat the staff that get infected, they are acting as heroes. People on the front lines have repeatedly asked that people avoid getting sick so that they can minimize their personal risk. To open up now is to treat these heroes with disrespect. How can you ask someone to risk their life because you assumed the virus wouldn't hit you hard, so mingled with crowds and caught it bad. Could you blame the staff if they all called in sick during a non-essential driven surge of severe cases?

Once protective equipment is readily available (any day now?) and catching this novel virus has lower risks (many trials in progress), opening up and letting herd immunity build is a viable strategy, especially for those that don't come in contact with people at risk. People are still going to die from this virus, but we can't continue to ask the medical staff to be among them without sharing the pain.

Lakegeezer, you make some very valid points, and you made them without any political asides....thank you for that. I wish we had the perfect answer: protecting the medical personnel involved in this pandemic, treating the victims of this sometimes-devastating illness, and doing all this while protecting the most vulnerable in our society....all this while keeping most of the workplace in force! What an unbelievable goal! There’s no perfect solution, or so it seems. I share the views many of us have....that we can get a grip on what needs to be done....testing, social distancing, quarantine when indicated, and an eventual vaccine. Please, please, please let people get back to their lives and livelihoods soon before the damage is irreparable. Last thing: we are all responsible for our personal well-being, so those who are most vulnerable need to take extra precautions.
Sorry, my index finger wouldn’t let me stop writing this. Be forgiving.

Newbiesaukee 04-27-2020 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer (Post 333162)
A major problem with opening things up now is the need to respect the medical staff. Without a supply of proper protection equipment and proven ways to treat the staff that get infected, they are acting as heroes. People on the front lines have repeatedly asked that people avoid getting sick so that they can minimize their personal risk. To open up now is to treat these heroes with disrespect. How can you ask someone to risk their life because you assumed the virus wouldn't hit you hard, so mingled with crowds and caught it bad. Could you blame the staff if they all called in sick during a non-essential driven surge of severe cases?

Once protective equipment is readily available (any day now?) and catching this novel virus has lower risks (many trials in progress), opening up and letting herd immunity build is a viable strategy, especially for those that don't come in contact with people at risk. People are still going to die from this virus, but we can't continue to ask the medical staff to be among them without sharing the pain.

Totally agree with you with one caution. Herd immunity only works if the antibodies formed after infection actually do protect against reinfection. And if they do protect, how long will they protect.....three weeks, three years, forever?? And the same answers, among others, need to be answered before any vaccine is used for everyone.

No one really yet knows the answer and it is vital information as we move forward.

VitaBene 04-27-2020 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee (Post 333184)
Totally agree with you with one caution. Herd immunity only works if the antibodies formed after infection actually do protect against reinfection. And if they do protect, how long will they protect.....three weeks, three years, forever?? And the same answers, among others, need to be answered before any vaccine is used for everyone.

No one really yet knows the answer and it is vital information as we move forward.

Dr, if it doesn't aren't we in big trouble? I know the efficacy of the flu vaccine is limited due to not knowing strains. Would this be opposite or will CV-19 morph?

Mr. V 04-27-2020 09:08 PM

https://images.craigslist.org/00404_...N0_600x450.jpg


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