https://i.imgur.com/qD7A2Bb.png

Ice floats on a lake's surface until it is melted. Although it sometimes floats low in the water, it does not sink to the bottom, as some mistakenly believe.


Water is heaviest at 39 degrees, lighter at higher or lower temperatures. Falling air temperatures in autumn and lower sun angles, in conjunction with wind and wave action, result in the lowering of lake temperatures. Because the cooler water is heavier, it will sink, displacing and forcing warmer water to the surface. This continues until the entire lake reaches a temperature of about 39 degrees.

Following this, surface temperatures will fall below 39 degrees and the cooler and lighter water will remain at the surface. As the surface water cools further, it will eventually change into ice.

Because the ice is colder and less dense than the water below it, it floats. In the spring, the reverse occurs. Rising air temperature and higher sun angles cause melting to begin on top of the ice layer.

If there are no cracks or fissures, the melting water will accumulate on top of the ice. If this happens over an entire lake (which is unlikely) or over parts of the lake, one might get the impression that the ice is sinking. But it isn't.


Further warming will cause the ice to become rotted or honeycombed, with water and air filling the void. The dark color of ice in late winter is because of this honeycombing. As the honeycombing process continues, the ice mass floats lower and lower in the water until it is completely melted, but it never sinks to the bottom.

One of the wonders of the planet earth and floating ice, without it the planet would more likely be dead.

You are correct :) It always always always always always floats.

I hope a meteorite hits your boat today............... Very jealous :laugh::laugh:

Good luck / congratulations on your first fish.:)

Sunk
 

When swimming I always wondered why the water was colder deeper down. It's all that sunken slushy ice. And I'll see the Easter bunny tomorrow.

My mind is going slushy reading this thread! :rolleye1:

FLL fresh water is never more dense than fresh water. As long as the “slush” (water & ice) contains ice, again which is less dense than water it will float, not sink. And by the way sublimation is the transition from a solid directly to a gas. Fresh water ice doesn’t do that, it melts to water.


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sublimation
 

Hate to be disagreeable, but a small amount of ice will sublime to vapor and become incorporated into the atmosphere. When the conditions are right the sublimed water vapor will condense and become fog (which then eats more ice).

That's it, I'm going trolling tomorrow no matter if I hear from Emerson or not!

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Was that you?:

Science is based on facts that are not open to opinion. Admittedly there are scientific questions that have yet to be answered. Like how to measure quantum mechanics? Do parallel universes exist? However the science behind ice floating is not an open question.

Try a simple internet search.

Double thanks .......... :):) As you correctly stated "Science is based on facts that are not open to opinion."

So what do you call an "opinionated" scientist?

Further to this, ice does indeed sublime, even if well below the melting point, because it, too, exerts vapor pressure into the space above it. Visible proof if this is when driving in cold weather; if there is any thin film of ice on the windshield (from whatever source), driving along in that cold, dry air results in that ice evaporating to nothing.

The situation of ice melting in water is unique in that 32 F is the "triple point" of water, at which you can have water, ice floating in it, and a water vapor space above it (very cold steam, at that very low pressure), all in thermal equilibrium. Also, as part of that definition, the vapor pressure exerted by ice (0.08854 psi) is the same as the pressure exerted by liquid water. However, by enthalpy balance, the heat of sublimation (energy absorbed going from solid ice to vapor is the total of heat of fusion (143 BTU/lb) plus heat of vaporization (1075.8). Any ice that sublimes or water that evaporates into the air above it absorbs the heat it needs to do so mostly from the water and partly from the air in contact with the surface (that theoretically would cause some water to refreeze if done slowly). Condensing that water vapor back onto the water/ice surface would just return the energy absorbed by turning into vapor, so it's mostly a wash (I guess that's a pun, too).

Curious....
 

When do discussions of lake ice melting move from the sublime to the ridiculous? Asking for a friend. Lol.

Love the science talk but couldn’t resist....

In a one word answer?

First day on the water
 

Yep ! That's me (WINNI BOB) got a nice Salmon right there.

Ice flow
 

The ice is moving quickly to the north this afternoon. Ice crinkles as it hits rocks and is building up on some. Fog is blowing off the gray ice, at times obscuring visibility. A neighbor put their dock in today. Hopefully it will survive the momentum of the ice flows.

Science is fun, but back to ice out
 

I have enjoyed the science of ice. It’s going to take awhile for it all to sink in....so to speak.

In the meantime my boat is in the water and Minge Cove is ice free, including the channel. Wahoo!!!

IG

A Climate Change denier.

Like the question that has baffled man for eons.....

https://i.imgur.com/FemRlLw.jpg

Unless of course you read this article:

The Arctic Ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from the Consulate at Bergen, Norway.

Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard of temperatures in the Arctic zone.

Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes.

Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm

Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared.

Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds.

Within a few years it is predicted that due to the ice melt the sea will rise and make most coast cities uninhabitable.



I must apologize. I neglected to mention that this report was from November 2 , 1922, as reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post 96 years ago. This must have been caused by the Model T Ford's emissions or possibly from horse and cattle flatulence.

Wow, that's a good one. I must admit you had me till the last!! Sounds so familiar!!

Had me also. Article is is available online?


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Yes, I would like to see the source of the information from 1922.

It’s says Consulate of Bergen, Norway and printed in the Washington Post November 2, 1922


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Yes, but the question is, was it? Until someone can post a link to the actual article, it isn't fact.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/warm-welcome/

https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpr..._wx_review.png

So we are still on track for 4/22 at 3pm then.

I shall prepare my acceptance speech. ;)

It's kind of silly to suggest that because somebody may have been wrong a hundred years ago that the entire scientific community is wrong today. And it's ironic to use a fact check site that may show one article in favor of climate change denial when that same site likely shows about a thousand (a million?) other references that support climate change

"Official" Ice Out Thread
 

You have got to be kidding !!! They gave publication date and source. Just look it up if you doubt it.

It wasn’t some meme picture someone posted

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I predicted an earlier ice out this year...so much for that. All I can hope for now is to win the Two Barns " name the beer" contest...bottoms up![emoji6]

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I’ve been saying the 22nd all along! I’ll be SO EXCITED if I’m right this year! I don’t know about all of you but I’m ready to get back out on the lake!!!!

Did you start with your own beliefs then look for data or articles that support your ideas? That's hardly "scientific".

Perhaps that article was written to support a political position. Perhaps it was just wrong. Perhaps the author was simply tying to create a sensational article that would create interest. It succeed in sparking your interest 97 years later. Perhaps the author, like you, started with a preconceived notion and looked for data or reports to support that belief.

Are we really to the point that we do not believe anything anymore? We are questioning the agenda of an article written almost 100 years ago.

Or perhaps we're getting bored watching ice melt?

The link to the article was already posted but I thought I would post it without having to go to the link.

:offtopic:

No, it's not off topic.

With google, any nitwit can easily find multiple references on any one topic, idea, person, historical event or anything else ...... and is pretty easy to find a reference that supports what you already were thinking or whatever agenda you are promoting ..... I do it all the time.

I rest my case. :laugh:

Can we please keep this thread for ice conditions and open water and NOT political environmental back and forth?