All of those examples own the property they use or lease publicly owned property that the public (as decided by elected representatives) has deemed valuable and/or are transient.

To me, the lake and its coves and sandbars and public docks, etc. are like little state parks that should not be affected long-term by or profited off by commercial businesses.

If the Dive kept moving—minimizing its overall impact on landowners, boaters, other waterfront businesses—I don't think people would have nearly as much of a problem.

It's really too bad the Weirs didn't work out because I think that could've been a win-win.


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Ok, you just keep whining and complaining, I'll keep going to The Dive and enjoying my Summer with them. I only post about my direct experiences so people who HAVEN'T been on it will get the proper information. They run a great operation and have the following on the lake to prove it. The place is always busy and the food quality and drinks are top notch. Bravo Jaime and Betsy!!

The Breeze (aka paulie)

I'll remember that when the lake is "presented courtesy of Coca-Cola."

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Maybe if the place is always busy they will add a 3rd story before the 2022 season! :)

Glad you posted, good to have balance and all sides of the story. Who knows how many feel one way vs. another way. My feeling has always been as long as they are following all rules and have all needed permits, then hope things go well for them.

How do you feel about the pontoon boats that travel around selling ice cream, etc? Is it just that the Dive anchors at the spot for the day? Just trying to understand your thought process.


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The ice cream dude is in one place for a few minutes—he does not use public property to launch or wait for customers, and he doesn't monopolize or affect any one space for more than a few minutes. People can go, or own, anywhere on the lake and their use of the space will not be affected long-term.

The Dive sits in place for whole days and, as it has been in Paugus this year and W. Alton a couple years back, weeks at a time. People cannot use that public space, nor can they own there, without being affected by it.

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I don't want The Dive parking in front of my house. I don't like the concept of it. If it were a floating bar/restaurant, a cruising vessel, or more mobile and could cruise around the lake a stop and different locations over the course a a day, fine. Better yet, if there were a website with real time GPS and an app so you could order and go pick up the order, I would give it a try.

Pot and Kettle
 

The owners of the Dive are claiming "woke" culture is against them on FB, but they are also promoting "Save our Sandbars" on FB when no one complaining about the Dive has suggested closing down any of the sandbars. While I fully support their rights to operate their business, they should focus on their mission and build relationships with the community and their patrons versus conflating the issue into something it's not.

No strong feelings about the Dive one way or the other, but as wentworthwhitbreadIII pointed out above and I confirmed on its public FB page, The Dive complaining about “woke” people “cancelling” them doesn’t sound very welcoming to me.

Don’t forget Jamie’s rant about “douchebag rich people”. Hope he wasn’t biting the hand that feeds him with that comment.

Does anyone know what Laconia wanted to charge the Dive owners to make improvements to the Weirs Beach dock so they could always berth at that location?

Thanks for the repost of the link. Reading between the lines just a bit , it looks like the reason things did not work at The Weirs is that it was too expensive for them to build a dock to house themselves.

This relates to Think's general point--their business plan requires a public dock space. In other words, they need a public subsidy to make ends meet--if they have to pay the full price for their own dock, they cannot make ends meet.

And if you accept the above--then The Dive does not pass the "litmus test" of being a viable business that covers its own costs, at least at The Weirs.

I disagree. Yes it probably was too expensive but they have adjusted their plan and have been very busy this season with less overhead. Instead of building an expensive addition to a public dock that they only had a 3 year lease on they now just rent a mooring slip on Paugus. FYI the investment probably would have worked if they received the original 10 year lease they were seeking.


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Thanks--I agree that a business that was viable on a dock could still decide on a mooring to lower overhead.

But LDS reported that it was The Dive that changed it's goal from 10 years and dock construction to 3 years of free rent. So I am not sold on the idea that they would have been viable at the dock. From LDS:

The Dive — a two-story establishment constructed on a self-propelled barge — initially sought a 10-year lease, but after further discussions with the city reduced the term to three years during which time it would pay no rent. However, under the terms of the lease the Dive was required to build a 1,376-foot expansion of the Weirs Docks at its expense and obtain any state permits necessary for the construction.

It appears the evening cruise an wedding/event business from the original business plan has not borne fruit. Nevertheless, three years, including a pandemic, is longer than many restaurants survive. They seem to be flexible in their business plan and keep moving forward in a difficult business. Bravo.

Ten year lease may have included a monthly or annual rent... the article was not specific.

Needless to say, the City of Laconia could not provide public space that subsidized an entire competing with shore-based establishments paying property taxes.

Lots of money floating around the area right now... so not really that hard to make a business go. But a deep capital investment when the tide turns, and it can happen in any venture or the greater economy in general - that is when great businesses show what they have.

All The Possibilities from "Civilization"...
 

The Mt. Washington was a "venue" before most of us got here, in simpler and cleaner times.

The Dive (and Winnie Belle) have "citified" a lake previously renowned for Loon calls. The Winnie Belle plays "Mack the Knife" for us, followed by Wayne Newton singing "Danke Schoen". :rolleye1:

(Plus, it needs to fly a Confederate flag to be in full costume). :rolleye2:

On a lake known for rapid weather changes, The Dive, when it's not "spuds-down" safely next to your dock, still makes a good lightning rod around rafting boaters. :eek2:

Even the Winni Belle started out with problems.

The day it came to the lake the company transporting it misjudged the Alton ramp and landed it on top of the dock. It needed a large wrecker to lift it and move it over to get it floating.

Why on earth did they launch it a Downings? I'm surprised that it didnt take out the dock just from bumping into it,,,

Wouldn't the actual Alton ramp have been better?

The other ramp is steep and narrow with stone walls on both sides. Also, that parking lot may make it difficult for a long vehicle to get straight enough to back down the ramp.

Many years ago I launched a boat there and while backing down the ramp the weight of the boat pulling backwards kept causing the front tires of the towing vehicle to lock up. Surge brakes on the trailer don't help at all in reverse!

I think the Mount, like the small mail boats, and trains were not designed to originally be tourist attractions, but had primary uses that had to be adapted.

designed use
 

The Mount I carried passengers and freight. Mount II was purchased and rebuilt for tourism. She had also done passenger service on Lake Champlain (as the Chateguay). Of course, most 19th century steamboats carried passengers and freight. Many other early steamboats were mostly freight, but when Mount II came to Winnipesaukee, it was for tourists. I'm not sure what a "smaller" mail boat is. The Tonimar was a private yacht converted to mail delivery and tourist rides. The Gray Ghost is basically a runabout that delivers mail and takes a few passengers. The "larger" mail boats, Sophie C and Doris E were built for tourist attractions and added mail service when the Uncle Sam(s) went out of service. The railroads, as one example, gave land at the Weirs to the NH Veterans to build the veteran's vacation homes at the Weirs as a means of building tourist and vacation traffic. In the winter, ski trains or snow trains were established to take skiers (tourists) to places like N. Conway. To me, these were all pretty much specifically aimed at tourist traffic, not adapted from some other use.

Nice t0 learn the history. I know NH has been receiving tourists in earnest for more than a century, but as a child remember that only Wolfeboro and the Laconia (Weirs) seemed to really draw any interest.

I always presumed it was due to the railroad making it easier for urban residents to reach the more rural areas at a speed fast enough to be able to enjoy the cooler mountain air and lack of noise/smell in the city at a time before AC and when horses were dominant.
I figured the Mount - as you stated - was originally moving freight and people to other parts of the lake that rail service did not exist.

Meredith, Center Harbor, and to some degree Alton, seem to have gotten more effect from the highway system. I presumed that after the highway replaced the railroad as the primary conduit, that the rail and ships/boats began to focus more on tourism rather than as the primary means of transport.

This thread piqued my curiosity. I've seen the Dive go by, and have thought the concept was pretty cool, though I haven't tried it yet. However, I went to the FB page and listened to the owner's diatribe on "woke" culture and being "cancelled" and was immediately turned off. These are super lazy terms made popular by right wing politicians, do not even apply to the Dive's particular situation, and do nothing to actually solve problems. His attitude also does not bode well for his future success since the airing of grievances in this manner is unprofessional, IMO.

Seaplane Dive
 

How about The Dive just straps on a propeller and becomes a seaplane? Two benefits:

1. It can land directly at each day's sandbar destination, avoiding routes near the "it's an eyesore" critics.
2. This forum can consolidate all the Dive threads with the 19 Mile Bay seaplane threads. So efficient!

;)

FWIW, I don't mind the Dive. I've been on it only twice, had a good time, and it's a fun oddity to share with guests who visit. Admittedly, it doesn't pass by my place directly (bridge near me would decapitate the second floor). Easier to be relaxed about it when I only have to experience it amidst the chaos of a Braun Bay sandbar party (where The Dive is rarely the most offensive boat nearby...)

It appears that Jamison Merriman, co owner of the Dive, does not think much of this forum. From his FB page.

“For the idiots on Winnipesaukee forum, you know the ones that hide behind their keyboards.. idiots
May be an image of one or more people and text that says 'Always remember... Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.' “

Name calling seems to be the new norm these days.
What's the old saying, "you get more bees with honey"?

I agree. There are a lot of nasty comments on the various FB pages that support the Dive. Here is one from the Dive's own page made by someone referring to those that do not like or oppose the Dive. The comment was "liked" by the Dive:

"These people need their faces punched in."

Maybe everyone will be a little less grumpy now that the sun is out.:)

Agree


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Its a total turn off on any forum when it gets personal or violent.

No one wins,,,

I don't think they are grumpy.
Just a lot of people moving in different directions.

We see this with every New Money cycle. Our teachers used to warn us about it.
Economic boom resulting in growth and diversity, and then the decline.
Some declines are slow and steady, were most everyone adjusts; some are just dramatic with heartbreaking results.

Actually Braun Bay seems like the perfect place for the Dive, it should blend in perfectly and have little impact.

Braun Bay is so much better than the tiny sandbars at West Alton and Paugas Bay, they make no sense at all for such a huge piece of equipment. They must displace 20+ boats on the West Alton or Paugas Bay sandbars. I also cant imagine the Margate is thrilled to have it there.

Is there some reason it no longer goes to Braun?

I would guess navigation challenges. From it's dock in Paugus to Braun must take a chunk of time, what does it travel at, 5-6 mph?

I would imagine its a long ride in wide open water, and not easily accessible to re-supply during the day if needed. It does make sense to be there though.

I need to make it a point to try it sometime soon.

If you have seen it set up at Paugus or West Alton you could seen it displaces 4-5 boats at the most and these locations fit very well into their plan this year. Very little travel and easy to resupply during the day with nice size crowds

Yes I have seen it at West Alton and your 4 - 5 boat estimate is way off, its huge.

Are you talking about 4 - 5 35' boats or 20' boats???

It probably displaces more than double your 4 - 5 boats estimate just around the parameter, let alone the actual footprint of its structure.

In a place like Braun it would have minimal impact, but somewhere like West Alton or ever worse the Paugas sandbar, its overwhelming!

The sandbars already have a crowd.
So travelling to them, and then doing what you can to attract customer is the business rational.

XCR... You have your math wrong!

The NHMP measures from the gunwale to gunwale when determining rafting distance, not center line to center line.

The Dive measures at 20' beam x 60' length. so to make it easy, say you are in a no rafting zone like Braun or West Alton where boats have to stay 25' apart.... the Dive takes up the same approximate space of 2 boats (8.5' x 20')... 17' for the beam of the 2 boats + 75' distance.

25' + (Dive 60') +25' = 110' total

25' + (8.5' boat) + 25' + (8.5' boat) + 25' for s total of 92'

So there is really only 18' linear difference.... so to be fair lets say it takes up 2.5 smaller boats worth of space... or 2 large cabin cruisers!

In places like Braun Bay & West Alton, its entirely possible for them to anchor outside the no rafting zone.

In places like the Margate sandbar.... it is not a NRZ.


Woodsy