The unspoken truth in this entire thread and similar threads in this forum for the past year is that the differences between pro- and anti-mask wearers are profound and probably immutable:

• Caring about oneself versus caring about others and the whole of society
• Searching for scientific truth versus believing demagogues
• Reflective versus led by emotions
• Seeking social progress versus regressing to a primitive social state
• Commitment to social responsibility versus claiming total personal freedom
• Feeling connected to others (globally) versus clinging to individual identity

These orientations run so deep that there is very little chance that a person will "switch sides" in mid life. They are part and parcel of who we are. For many people, these ways of thinking and being originated in childhood, where we came from, who our parents are. Some may break away from their social and political roots, but by the time you're in your mid twenties, you've probably chosen a camp and intend to stay there.

Is there any hope of repairing this divide, before it destroys us? (Because it WILL destroy us, whether through this pandemic or the next or, certainly, the climate crisis.) We're sort of out of time. The vast social changes that are needed take centuries, millennia, or maybe we just don't have it in us as a species to come together and solve these massive crises ever. We would need to develop such a high level of social cooperation that our desire for survival of the SPECIES would outweigh our individual desire for self-preservation at the expense of the species. The fatal flaw in humans is that the instinct for individual preservation is built into our genetic makeup, but not the awareness that in order for us to survive individually, our species must survive.

That in a nutshell explains why people are unwilling to wear a mask to protect other people. They don't understand that if hundreds of millions of people get sick and die, eventually they themselves will either be killed by the virus or they will suffer some other grave consequence through economic collapse, collapse of the food system, social chaos, etc.

I'm not a philosopher. For a take on these questions from a real philosopher, this 2020 book looks well worth reading: The Precipice: Existential Risk and the Future of Humanity, by Oxford University philosopher Toby Ord https://www.amazon.com/Precipice-Exi.../dp/0316484911

April 22, www.nytimes.com ....... Do We Still Need to Wear a Mask, Outdoors? ..... in the middle of the front page ..... is a good long look at this issue if you are bored out of your mind right now, and have nothing better to do.

I understand your message however the delivery leaves a little to be desired IMO. Using terms and words like "demagogues" "Caring about oneself versus caring about others" "Commitment to social responsibility versus claiming total personal freedom" etc... does not help your credibility or your message. Putting down one side, the side you disagree with will never bring us together on this or any other issue. Just food for thought.

According to several recent surveys, about 85% of people identifying as Democrats will seek vaccination and only about 45% of Republicans will.

You can quibble whether mask wearing works and maintain that the mask debate is not primarily political. But what is the explanation for the above if not political?

If that few Republicans are vaccinated, it will be very difficult to achieve herd immunity. If that is the case, the consequences will be tragic, particularly as it is preventable.

My take is that the surveys are wrong in the same way the voting for Trump surveys often turned out incorrect. Many polling analysts believe that people identifying as Republicans often voted for Trump while answering they would not and Democrats would say they would not, when they did.

If the vaccination polls ARE correct, how is the split NOT political?

Is it true that the majority of Republicans are against vaccination?

We have a few restaurant owners on this site, maybe they could chime in.

I've read a number of similar stories. In fairness to our Republican pen pals on this forum, it seems that New Hampshire Republicans do not suffer from this profound stupidity. These articles have also noted that many Blacks and Hispanics (presumably Democrats) are also vaccine resistant. The thing all these vaccine resisters have in common--whether they are southern white Republicans or northern Black Democrats--is lack of education and inability to apply basic logic over emotion.

Did you just write Blacks, Hispanics, and Republicans lack basic education and logic? May I be the first to say your words are idiotic

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That is not what Flying wrote and not what he meant. And I DO know what he meant. Those darn adjectives really do count.

You may not agree with him at all...but you can’t argue with what he did not say.

Perhaps you should have done a little research before posting. It’s mistrust of the healthcare system that is behind minorities hesitancy to get the vaccine.

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid...istrust-doubts

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Don't overlook many POC's intrinsic distrust of the medical institution. This has been documented for years in relation to historical treatment, the Tuskegee Experiments being one such catalyst for distrust.

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Of course I didn't mean that. But I will change "these groups" to these "vaccine resistors"

I understand the history. White America screwing your ancestors in hundred different ways, including medical experiments, is real, and a good reason to pause for a moment or a few days. But to skip a vaccine that is vetted by the FDA and the vast majority of white America is clamoring for is an emotional response, not a logical one

I can never bring YOU over to my way of thinking. Thus I send my message to those who can be reached by it and will be galvanized to take action on it. You've understood my message. Whether it motivates you to do something to sustain your species is up to you.

If you keep messaging the way you currently do then yes you will never bring me over to your way of thinking. Putting down the side you do not agree with will never accomplish anything. So in summary it is also up to you.

Fake it--Or Else!
 

I'm currently being treated for an aggressive skin rash.

My Dermatologist was wearing the standard rectangular mask, but it was looped only at the top corners. (...and hanging loose at the bottom corners). :rolleye2: I regret complimenting its appearance! :o

But if everybody wore a similar mask, we'd all be in compliance, and we wouldn't hear threats from D.C. enforcing the cancelations of 4th of July gatherings. :eek:

Nor news from Canada about fencing off a church, and adding guards. (200 by one account). :eek2:
https://globalnews-ca.cdn.ampproject...rom%20%251%24s

Ask Knotty Pine
 

This establishment announced it is closed again because of Covid-19 employee exposure? It is the second or third time they have had to close. It is no secret that in the area there is a large population of people that are against masks. To me this again illustrates that some people do not care what the impact is to their small communities by not wearing a mask in any indoor situation.

I would be very sad to see this restaurant fail.

You are assuming it was transmitted by a non masked customer, are you not? Can I assume the employee contacted it from a family member or peer group? You don’t name the establishment and I have not heard of one being closed in this area so am I to believe you? With that said, if the establishment was following all protocols and still got a positive exposure shouldn’t that tell you everything that is being done won’t stop a virus.


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It says Knotty Pine in the title, but if on a mobile I don't think you see the title

True


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What the CDC says
 

We will be waring Masks out of doors again soon. We are still too far from having Covid-19 infections under our control.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-mask-n1264937

Counterpoint from WMUR of all people https://wmur.com/article/positive-tr...mbers/36203464


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Fake news
 

FAKE NEWS.. Do not wear mask, Do not get vaccinated
This is all FAKE NEWS.. Right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/kent...utbreak-2021-4

Never understood the need to wear a mask outdoors, unless you're in close quarters.

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When / What?
 

Would be nice for the government to tell us what exactly has to happen where we do not have to wear masks. It is not realistic to say when there are no more infections or to force people that don't want it to get it - that is simply never going to happen. Most likely, the government's projection of the population that they expect to get shot is going to fall way short. I personally don't see a lot of very low risk 16 year olds getting an emergency use shot with no track record but who knows.

At some point in the coming future, when everyone that wants the vaccine has been offered it and it was available to them (now with paid time off to get one) with a time buffer for the 2nd shot, I'm not sure I see why masks are still a factor after that point. Of course we call all pick whatever group we like to try to blame on for not getting the vaccine... In the end, someone's body, someone's choice.

Who are we protecting after that point by wearing a mask?
Once the state starts to say > We have vaccine supply but no longer have material volume of people asking/waiting for it - is it not time to take the mask off OR are we waiting for something else that we are not being told OR are we trying to protect those that choose to never get the vaccine?

I just Liston to my Doctor, the medical Scientists whom many of which have studied Pandemics and speak the truth! This has kept me around for 76 years and hopefully another birthday coming up in August with Family.

Those people that think that they know better, still do so. Just look at the every day death toll...

Another View...
 

Then there's this reasoned response to vaccinations:

The federal government has no authority to enforce any so-called cancellation of Independence Day. Celebrate the holiday and don’t let your life be run by the government. Remember the state motto.


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If you feel better wearing a mask, then wear one!!

That being said, do masks prevent transmitting or getting the virus?

I’d have to say they do not. I am not a doctor and I do not have a degree in any of the medical sciences. What I do have is practical experience.

Last November I worked with a coworker from another department, on a project. We were both in good health and both wearing masks. We were in close proximity of each other for about an hour. Two days later we were again working together, for about an hour, both still feeling fine, still wearing masks.

The next day he started feeling sick, I was ok. The following day he tested positive for Covid-19 as did a couple of others in his department.

The following day I started feeling ill, got sicker over the weekend. Monday, I called in sick at work. I was told to get tested as there was a breakout at work. I tested positive the next day.

I can’t guarantee that I got it from him, but no one else around me has had the virus. And I hadn’t been anywhere or been in any crowds.

Even though I don’t think that masks do a dam thing, I wear one in public. Why, to make others feel comfortable.

Now the real question here, is how many miles we have walked getting out of our cars to go into a store, getting to the door and saying, ****!! My mask! Turning around and getting it………………………………………………….

One point of my post was to show that these worldviews are deeply entrenched and probably not changeable in a person over the age of 20 or so. That's true regardless of how the message is expressed! These basic worldviews are a huge part of our identity. You can't give them up without feeling like your identity is under assault. It's who you are.

Think of what it takes to get someone into and out of a cult. They have to experience a complete shift in their identity. Getting people out of a cult is very, very difficult because people feel psychologically threatened when you present them with facts that are counter to their built identity. Very few people are willing to consciously sit down and think through their system of beliefs---what it's built on, whether it serves good or bad purposes, whether it works for themselves and others.

The forces that maintain beliefs are subconscious. It takes a strong act of will to examine your beliefs point by point and be open to the possibility of changing them. Religious beliefs are an example of this, but in recent years political beliefs have become associated with very strong emotions to an extent that wasn't really the case in past eras. When the emotions become externalized---like at a political rally---the adrenaline rush pretty much rules out any possibility of introspection about your beliefs. Even in this forum, people make strong public statements affirming their identity. Every time you thank a poster, you're affirming your identity---always the same predictable group of people, affirming the same beliefs. There's really no retreat from that because now your public image is on the line. You can't say, "You know, I was thinking about my reasons for why I don't want to wear a mask. I guess I was only thinking my own needs. I decided that I do owe it to others to not make them sick if I'm infected, so I've decided to wear a mask. I regret that I may have unknowingly exposed people to COVID by not wearing a mask."

I think we need to be realistic about the extent to which people can change their beliefs and behaviors. Apparently people only change when they're faced with a monumental catastrophe. The sad truth is that the death of 570,000 Americans due to COVID-19 is not monumental enough. The current status of the climate crisis is not monumental enough. If you walked out your front door tomorrow and discovered that half of the people in your town had died of COVID---the plague wiped out half of Europe in the 1300s---and the temperature was 120 degrees in December, I dare say that would be monumental enough to change your beliefs and behaviors. The question is whether there is a midpoint in the size of the catastrophe that will change people's behavior in time to reverse a crisis. We haven't reached that point yet with COVID and we may have already passed the point where effective change is possible with the climate crisis.

I'm not putting you down. I'm making observations about human nature that apply to you and me both.

Far from over...
 

New cases are showing up, even after shots.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...?ocid=msedgntp

lol climate crisis a/k/a weather


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Getting in the WAY
 

What to do?
 

"As of April 20, when about 87 million Americans had been fully vaccinated, 7,157 breakthrough infections were reported to the CDC. The majority were among women (64%) and nearly half were among those older than 60 (46%). There were 498 hospitalizations and 88 deaths among those cases."

Full article:
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/co...251004244.html

the Gov reminded everyone that ALL restrictions from the State end May 7th. Then it is up to businesses to decide what they want to do. And then the public can make their own decisions to spend money there or not - the way it should be

obviously you have some municipalities in the state doing their own things as well but from a state perspective they are done May 7th

Just When Things Didn't Need Complicating...
 

Americans ordered out of India, as country faces overwhelming COVID-19 onslaught:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56932513

You're right about that. The hell with the masks.

I think that many republicans basically don't trust government. They prefer small government, a light hand and not being told what THEY have to do.

I can't really say I blame them, in some instances, government has really screwed up.

But sometimes you have to take a chance. If they don't join in, we are gonna be in trouble. There is gonna be some portion that doesn't get vaccinated. Say 10% (due to access, communication, illegal immigrants, what ever). But if half the republican's don't vaccinate that would bring us to around 65%. That's not good.

There are signs that the polls are correct. That the vaccination rate is slowing down in the USA. That is partly due to the J&J pause (limited supply and made nervous people even more nervous).

It really is amazing that we have 3 good vaccines available.

I read one good article on the J&J pause. Basically saying the odds of you getting the blood clot from J&J is 100 times less than it is that you get into a serious car accident getting to the location of the vaccine.

One positive note regarding masks in NH. I was in all my usual spots in the lakes region this past Thursday - Sunday. And mask wearing was about the same. Went to Polly's. We ate in, huge space between tables, masks required on the entrance, yes we removed masks to eat, all staff masked :). Harts (take out, all visible staff masked), Home Depot and Local Hardware Store. All top notch being careful. Few patrons didn't wear masks, but that's "normal".

Just an FYI
 

A leading medical publisher has retracted an often cited article, including the dangers and ineffectiveness of masks, which has been referenced on our forum. The author is not who he said he is among other other serious issues raised. Stanford University has also confirmed this.

One link if you’re interested in beating another dead horse.

https://retractionwatch.com/2021/04/...d-affiliation/

Thanks, Newbie. As I referenced above, that piece was so easily debunked it was a testament to how much some of our forum members—and Americans as a whole—are at the mercy of confirmation bias.

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We are already at, or maybe over, 50% of US adults vaccinated.

Still too many sitting on the sidelines, but they're coming around.

No masks outdoors in Mass today!:)