If its not broken, don't fix it
 

Looks like the existing laws worked. While there wasn't enough evidence to convict for BWI laws (because it was a hit and run), the jury used the evidence to declare that he was going to fast for his condition. BWI was indeed part of the conviction. This makes more sense than a speed limit.

Defining a speed for all conditions (or condition) - and changing a status quo that has proven to be safe and effective, is what the the debate should be about. Discussion about how to ban boat types as a tribute to Littlefield's victim should be a different debate.

There have been plenty of “incidents” in just recent years – that was pretty evident at the House hearing that I attended. The problem is that those in opposition to the bill are saying that we don’t need a speed limit since no one’s been killed on Winni lately.

Well, I’m not willing to wait for a fatality – especially when I could become the fatality. No one officially records close calls, near misses, or fortunate escapes from harm – yet those happen all the time. I have personally had dangerous “incidents” on Winni and I believe a speed limit would have prevented most of those, or at least reduced the danger involved.

Boats on Winni, which were traveling well in excess of 45 mph, have violated my 150 foot zone by a considerate amount . . . in some cases, within 50 feet of me - because the operator was traving too fast.

And this has occurred more than once – sometimes even more than once in a single outing. And many other paddlers on the lake have experienced this as well.

The bill is about safety – no matter how you try to spin it. And that’s what the Senators should be looking at. I contend that speeds above the limits in the bill are very unsafe on a busy lake that is populated with small, slow moving boats.

I’ve seen the difference that a speed limit cam make on a large NH lake. Squam is not only a good example – it also shows the NH’s Marine Patrol is perfectly capable of enforcing a speed limit.

Thanks for posting that decision, first time I had read it all. To use that case, or any of the others, in relation to a discussion over GF boats or speed limits is quite telling.

It's obvious, not just from the testimony, but from his actions leaving the dock, he was at least somewhat impaired. If he was piloting a 18 foot bowrider, he would be equally impaired. The fact that he was doing 28 mph, is a pretty ludicrous analogy to supporting a 25 mph speed limit at night. Now if you want to state your gut feeling that a Baja boat owner is more likely than an 18' bowrider owner to get involved in such an accident, then by all means, do so.
It's been my experience on this bog lake over here, that the really dangerous boaters tend to be the smaller boats, particularly 18 feet to 24 feet or so. Just a broad observation I know, but many in the $100,000 dollar an up crowd tend to realize what they have. Yes, there are some that have far too much testosterone for their own good :rolleye1:

As for water quality and erosion debates. There can't be a reasonable debate about the size of waves from a cruiser versus the go fast boats can there? The cruiser's wake is pretty large from 10 mph up to higher speeds. The GF boats have a momentary larger wake getting to plane, then it levels out to very normal.

I can understand the unstated intent of the law, or at least, the supporters. I really can. It would have been far more reasonable to attack the alleged problems by first, targeting enforcement of the 150' rule. I note that nobody commented on my post, which specifically mentioned the problem. Wonder why? Enforcement requires funding, step 1. If you want a speed limit to quietly address the fact that you would love to rid the lake of "those boaters", then at least have the common sense to enact a speed limit that doesn't limit the huge percentage of boats that safely can travel at 60 mph. I'll bet many proponents of this new law PO me when their boats go by as well. Go 15mph or so in front of my soon to be rocking boat, and I'll think up some new laws myself.

Rid the waters of violators, and you'll have a safer boating experience.

Disingenuous arguments leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

So why now?
 

It's clear that the supporters of HB847 aren't pushing the measure because of safety issues.

I have proposed, several times, a measure already in place for most of the boating community that would give the Marine Patrol the "tools in their arsenal" that supporters of HB847 say they need without having to spend additional money or divert manpower. No takers!

I have asked several specific questions of supporters that have made strong claims to provide data, they have not.

So now let me ask, why this bill now? Why would they be pushing so hard during this and the prior leglislative session for this speed limit bill?

Could it be that because safe boating certificates are now mandatory and it has been shown conclusively that boater education reduces boating accidents and that in all likelihood the lake will become an even safer place to enjoy? That fact will make it more difficult for them to perpetuate the lies that the lake isn't safe in order to get a bill like this passed later!

Not a single supporter of HB847 that claims that this is about safety has even commented on the suggestion that the language of HB847 be replaced with the language of Nav Rule 6.

Since the proposed compromise has been out there for a while without comment from those claiming that this is about safety I now submit to you that even those supporters who claim that this is about safety realize that everyone is finally aware that HB847 is nothing more than an effort to ban a certain type of boat from Lake Winnipesaukee.

Exactly. And there is no evidence that shows that the lake is not safe right now.

Do you mean other than the accidents and deaths.

We had a death last summer, doesn't that indicate the lake is not safe?

Deaths occur from many things. You have not presented any arguments that indicate your proposed speed limits would have any net, or measurable, increase in lake safety.

Almost every recreational activity has some amount of deaths associated with it. Do not take this to mean that the world needs more laws...

Not the only reason
 

Islander, OK if the boat was traveling above the speed limit. Are you happy? It has been said. He was guilty of speeding. He was above the posted speed limit . If HB-847 is passed. But can you look beyond your agenda to see that is not the reason why this accident occurred? Are you going to sit there and say the only reason why this accident occurred was because Littlefield was going 28 mph instead of 25. Nothing else contributed to the accident. Can you say with absolute certainty that this accident would never have occurred because the speed limit was in place. Can you say that he wasn't intoxicated at the time with certainty. How fast was the other boat going? Was it going 25 mph? If both boats were following the speed limit law to the exact MPH then obviously they would have never collided. So ok I provided the one scenario that would cause the speed limit to be pertant here. If both boats were going exactly 25 mph, not 1 mph less or more, then the speed limit would have saved this accident. But the real reason was that Littlefield wasn't paying attention and ran over another boat. If he had seen it he would have avoided it. We can't say for certain he was drunk because he ran, and there was enough time before the police got him for the alcohol he allegedly drank wore off. But according to eye witness accounts, which I don't think you are one, he was slurring his words and stumbling. I mean come on we are not sheep here. We can reason on our own and come to a conclusion. You just seem to have a different conclusion, so please enlighten me, why would the speed limit have saved Mr. Hartman?

There have been several deaths on I-93, does that indicate that the highway is not safe?

What was the cause of the accident in which someone died last summer on the lake?

See post 158

Yes, it does. I-93 is not safe. No highway is safe. The lake is not safe and it never will be.


With respect the last summers accident. You posted "there is no evidence that shows that the lake is not safe right now" A fatal accident is evidence the lake is not safe no matter what the cause.

We can never make the lake safe. We can make it safer!

That is not true. I have presented many arguments. You reject them.

There is a difference between not presenting arguments, and not presenting arguments that you like.

From what I can tell and from what's reported in this article, camps on Bear Island are doing just fine!!


http://yellowbordermagazine.com/ngm/.../fulltext.html

That is really ridiculous KonaChick, you should be ashamed of yourself. To what crazy ends will you go to try and make a point. As if that article has ANYTHING to do with this discussion.

Technically your arguments have been more discredited than rejected.

In your opinion

Ok
 

But the speed limit wouldn't have saved Mr. Hartman. Littlefield would still have over taken the Hartmans and collided with them if he was going 25.

And I don't think I am alone in that opinion.

You've presented some insightful opinions on how a speed limit law might have a positive impact on the lake. However, it's been just that, opinions and emotions.

It seems to me it's perfectly germain to this discussion if you're bringing up accidents that have nothing to do with speed on Lake Winnipesaukee and insist that they are relevant to this discussion. The article KonaChick links to discribes a very pleasant place to be, not the fear gripped kids, counselors and directors that you would like us to believe populate the camps.

That's an opinion. Based on a rough 2-1 turnout in Concord against HB847 my opinion is that it's NOT popular with the general public!

Not true, we're saying we don't need a speed limit because the stats don't support it.

Based on the very low number of boats that actually travel over 45MPH the the unusually high number of close calls with these boats you say are traveling over 45MPH I suggest you really don't know what 45MPH looks like as you claim to. I have had my 150' zone violated by idiots before. And that's the real problem, and a speed limit won't fix that. You can't fix stupid. But we can enforce the laws on the books and this is our first full year with mandatory boater certification so I already feel "safer" (not that I felt unsafe).

Actually the bill is about fear and perceived safety. The 150' rule addreses your concern about fast moving boats getting along with small, slow boats.

Squam is small and a totally different lake than Winni, not even a valid comparison.

Since nobody's even addressed the issue of enforcement of Existing laws, let alone what impact the new laws, all the arguments are off target.

It has been noted by BI that people now flaunt the existing laws in place. That's wrong, and needs to be addressed first. IMO, because of emotions and fear, they feel a new law will solve the problems and rid the lake of the trouble makers.

IMO, enforcement of existing laws will do that. If not, additional laws targeted AND ENFORCED, could be the means towards the end result.

IF the MP cannot enforce the exiting laws, they need to be given the means to do so. All of the efforts toward getting this feel good law enacted will be for naught.

Rain Rain go away.
 

It's terrible when it rains all weekend,there is nothing to do.So you sit at the computer and argue about speed limits, on the lake.I was laid off in Feb.One of the things I did was read the forum every day It was fun and I found the speed limit debate interesting.Now it's May.You people are saying the same thing you were saying in Feb,March and probable in Dec too.Everyone has made some good points pro and con.Now I have one thing to say.Get out on the water.GET A LIFE.
I am going out and enjoy the lake no matter what they do in Concord.Happy Spring everyone.

I think the point being that camp directors, counselors and kids at the camps on BI seem pretty happy and safe even though we have no speed limit. :) It's a great article btw and I'm happy to see you read it!! :)

I was there is 2001 when the National Geographic reporter and photographer were at the Island. Of course this was years before the speed limit talk started. They took pictures of the Sophie at the Mail Dock and several cabins, but it was the camps that got the coverage.

We all purchased several copies when it was in National Geographic the next year.

I wonder if 7 years later the talk wouldn't be of boy/girl dances, toasting marshmallows over an open fire or the tranquility the lake has to offer but of the unsafe conditions facing these campers on a daily basis as they wander into the waters of Winnipesaukee...it would be interesting to compare.

Cedric Benson Agrees...
 

How about professional athlete Cedric Benson arrested yesterday—drunk—"driving" his 30' CIGARETTE BOAT?

I mention this as the following appears today at Yahoo!

('Not going to link to a site that allows foul language—Google "Bearsfan", "NY Guy".)

Your laws on Lake Champlain are undoubtedly enforced by full-time officers. You may not know that Lake Winnipesaukee has a Marine Patrol composed of part-timers employed seasonally.

BTW, have you voted in our newest poll yet? :coolsm:

Once again, he was acquitted of the count of BWI—otherwise he'd still be in jail. Concord mandated a brand new law after the lake's most experienced and most educated performance boater had his "incident".

"Sold"?

I think the MP statistical survey was sold —during two months of an announced "Temporary Speed Limit".

The survey was conducted during a Temporary Speed Limit, that was in effect. THAT is a published FACT. :look:

Time for a Reality-Check?


Erosion is not an issue,
Pollution is not an issue,
Hartman is not an issue,
Speeding is not an issue,
Unlimited speed is not an issue,
Education is no longer an issue,
Inappropriate boats are not an issue,
Drunks in 4½-tons boats are not an issue,
There is "No Problem" on Lake Winnipesaukee,
Long Lake and other states' tragedies are not an issue,
and Woodsy says, radar doesn't work on water.

How's this summary so far? :coolsm:

]Parrothead wrote,

I see one way.

If a limit had been in place, the Marine Patrol could have given a written warning. Once stopped, the MPs could have noticed slurred speech, and given a field sobriety test. A NHMP boat on patrol wouldn't appear any different from any other boat in the darkness to Littlefield. Until the the flashing blue lights went on, that is.

There is no way to stop a Littlefield or identify any other drunken boater under existing laws.

This is assuming that they had been there to speed check the boat in the first place. Most indicators are that this is somewhat unlikely.

Additionally, if the speed was only 28MPH, it's unlikely they would have done anything about a boat going 3MPH over.

There is SERIOUS problem with your assumption....

1. The accident occurred just past the Meredith NWZ... the offending boat was or just had transitioned to on-plane... not a whole lot of time for the NHMP to grab a speed reading...

2. Unless the NHMP radar gun was on the EXACT same path & bearing, the Law Of Cosines WOULD have shown the offending boat traveling at a speed LESS than 28MPH! So they wouldn't have been stopped anyway!

3. Perhaps had the Common Man not overserved Danny that night (and convieniently LOST the recipt that showed just how much alcohol had been consumed) this tragedy might not have occurred at all!

Woodsy

Sorry for the delay. I was out of town, having surgury.

It doesn't matter where the Marine Patrol nails his butt. At night, and at 25 mph, a good place would be off the waterfront gin mills. There is no point in prowling the usual places during the day, and having no success. Just showing the flag only slows the drunks for a while, and hasn't worked for decades to stop the drunks . Darkness conceals all the NHMP presence.

Again, there is no way to stop a Littlefield or identify any other drunk boater under existing laws.

You think we should have a law in place that's sole purpose is to provide the police an opportunity to violate the 4th amendent? If the police don't have a good reason to stop you, I don't think that traveling 3 MPH over the speed limit would give them reason. The MP are very good at spotting drunks, they don't need to violate our rights to do it.

Now I agree that the MP should stake out waterfront gin mills. But they should do it day and night. Remember the goal is to prevent drunk driving, arresting drunk drivers serves that goal. Scareing drunks not to drive also serves that goal.

I wonder if that would even be legal if done on a regular basis? If it is legal then I would speculate that it isn't done more often because of political/economic or even legal (harassment) pressure that the owners of the establishments would bring to bear?

While Speaking of Debris...
 

Yup. The MPs start by looking for debris fields: shards of fiberglass, styrofoam coolers, sponges, engine compartment hoods, PFDs, hats, shoes, swim platform fragments, ejected passengers...et-cetera.
:rolleye1:

Hey...Nobody's noticed that it got through Transportation? With "Ought To Pass"? :confused:

3-2, Senate committee approves!
 

Today's www.citizen.com has a news article about yesterday's Senate Transportation Committee vote of 3-2 to recommend approving HB 847. It says that the full 24 member Senate will probably vote next Thursday.

One interesting thought to consider. Senator Joe Kenney (R) Wakefield has mentioned that he supports the Winnipesaukee speed limits. His district includes Wolfeboro. As you probably know, he is running for Governor, and he works a communications specialist in the US Marine Corps where he has been an officer since 1980.

Semper Fidelis, Senator Kenney!:)

The Citizen artice quotes the owner of Thurstons Marina. If speed limits were bad for boating and tourism, why would so many marina owners support HB847?


Jeff Thurston of Thurston's Marina in Weirs Beach is among the local dealers supporting the proposed law as a way of ensuring that everyone can use the lake with a sense that they are safe.

Thurston said he has traveled to Lake George in New York and witnessed that a speed limit can work and not have negative consequences on business.

"I think it's long overdue, and I applaud the insight that was displayed by the House and now this committee. Families and children should feel safe being out on the water," said Thurston.

The Weirs Beach business owner expressed his feeling that officials must act to "nurture" a lake that is among its biggest tourist draws in the state.

Probably because he has no stake in it, all of his lines are small and will not be affected in sales. What does he care? A few of his Cobalts (the ones that don't end up on the bottom) would be the only ones that would break the proposed limit-and not by much.

The opponents list contains almost every dealer on the lake besides them. Here is a portion of the list-mostly marine related:

ACL Industries - Manchester
Adam's Marina - Winnisquam
Andrew's Marine Service - Alton Bay
Atlantic Watercraft Club (charter of American Watercraft Association) - Salem
Averys Auto & Marine - Newport
Back Bay Marina - Wolfeboro
Biggart Marine - Plaistow
Bob's Beacon Marine - Newbury
Browns Auto and Marine - Newport
Center Harbor Dock & Pier Co. - Center Harbor
Channel Marine - Laconia
Dasilva Motorsports - Hampstead, Moultonboro
Dave’s Motorboat Shoppe, LLC - Gilford
Derry Marine & Salvage - Derry
Diamond Shine Boat Detailing - Gilford
Dock Doctor - Gilford
Dover Marine - Portsmouth
East Coast Marine Storage - Epping
Eastcoast Flightcraft Marine of New Hampshire - Meredith
East Coast Performance Center - Salem
Epping Motor Sports - Epping
Extreme Motor Sports - Windham
Gator Signs - Gilford
George's Marina - Dover
Gillan Marine Inc - Alton Bay
Granite State Boatworks - Milford
Glendale Marina - Gilford
Gray's Marina - Enfield
Great Bay Marina - Newington
Green's Marine, Inc. - Hooksett
Goodhue Marine, Inc. - Center Harbor
Hampton River Marina - Hampton
Harpers Boat Restoration - Meredith
HK Powersports - Laconia, Tilton, Hooksett
Irwin Marine - Laconia, Hudson, Alton, Litchfield
Jack Willey's - Tilton
JFG Enterprises Prop
Jim's Mopar Performance - Salem
JP Boating, LLC - Laconia
Lakeport Landing Marina - Laconia
Lakes Region Fiberglass - Laconia
Lakeside Boat Rentals - Alton Bay
Little Bay Marina - Dover
Lucky Lenny's Power Place - Tilton
Marine USA - Milford
Marlin Products Div. Pompanette LLC - Charlestown
Melvin Village Marina - Melvin Village
Miles Marine - Gilford
Moultonborough Canvas - Moultonborough
National Boat - Deerfield
Nault's Windham Honda - Windham
New England Boat & Motor - Laconia
New England Correct Craft - Rochester
Nimar International, Inc. - Walpole
Norm's Marina Inc. - Hinsdale
North/South Performance Boats - Alton Bay
One Stop Toy Shop - Epping
Outdoor Performance Center - Bridgewater
Outdoor Prop Service - Laconia
Owen's Marine - Hooksett
Philbricks Sports Center - Dover
Plaistow Motorsports - Plaistow
Pompanette, LLC - Charlestown
Production Trailer + Dock - Meredith
Professional Mariner, LLC - Rye
R & R Cycles - Manchester
Ray’s Marina & RV Sales, Inc - Milton
Ray Marine, Inc. - Nashua
Rochester Motor Sports - Rochester
Rockingham Boat Repair and Sales - Hampstead
S & W Sports - Concord
Sargents Marine - Georges Mills
Shep Brown's Boat Basin - Meredith, Gilford
Ship Shape Marine Works - Meredith
Shorline CoverWorks - Laconia
SilverSands Marina - Gilford
Sonic Power Marine of New England, LLC - Weirs Beach
Sunapee Harbor Marine - Sunapee
The Trailer Outlet - Tilton
Vintage Race Boat Shop - Wolfeboro
Ward's Boat Shop - Center Ossipee
Watermark Marine Construction - Gilford
Wentworth by the Sea Marina - New Castle
West Marine - Portsmouth
Windham Marine - Windham
Winnipesaukee Motorsports - Meredith
Winnipesaukee Marine Construction - Gilford
Winnisquam Marine - Winnisquam
Y Landing Marina - Meredith

Thurston won't see any of my money going forward...That is for sure.

Thurston's loses a lot of Cobalt sales to East Coast Flightcraft. East Coast Flightcraft also happens to be a Fountain (GFBL) dealer. It's easy to see why Jeff Thurston likes the bill, it goes for the throat of his biggest competitor.

How exactly do you extrapolate 1 quote to be "so many marina owners"?

It appears that there are far more marinas opposed to the bill than for it. The only marine-related stores that would seem to logically support the bill would be the paddle-boat sellers.

This is about more than bad/not bad for tourism, it's about more needless laws that will go unenforced and solve no issues.

Thurston's is not the only one, there are more on this supporters list.

The Common Man
Ashalnd Insurance
Strictly Rentals
Wild Meadow Canoes and Kayaks
Centre Harbor Cellars
Center Harbor Inn
AMC (Appalachian Mountain Club)
NH Audubon
New Hampshire Lakes Association (NHLA)
Decker Machinery Company
The Architectural Studio
Fay’s Boat Yard
Birch Island Camp Association
Gilford Islands Association (GIA)
Jolly Island Association
Lockes Island Association
Belknap Landscaping Company
Design Quest
DK Net Design
E&S Insurance LLC
The Hair Factory
Mike’s Ala Carte Catering
Pepi Herrmann Crystal, Inc.
Glendale Marine
River Edge Marina
Squam Lakes Association (SLA)
Cottage Place on Squam Lake
Squam Lake Inn
Me Designs
Barrons Billiards
Blooms Vanity
J&J Printing
LaBelles Shoe Store
Central & Northern Title
Haughey, Philpot & Laurent
Lakeside Hotel Assoc.
Sundial Shops
Paugus Bay Marina
Best Western Silver Fox Inn
Griffin Bodi Krause
Municipal Resources, Inc.
Great Northern Trading Co
Meredith Marina
Y-Landing
Bear Island Conservation Association (BICA)
East Bear Island Conservation Association
AMC- 3 Mile Island
Winnipesaukee Rowing Club
Alexandria Lamp Shop
Case N’ Keg
Chris Dupont Painting
Christopher P. Williams, Architects
Eisenberg Chiropractic
Hawkins Photography
Hobo Railroad
Landscapes By Tom
League of NH Craftsmen
Mastiff Builders
Omni Signs
Patricia’s “Specially for You”
Pemi Glass Company
Pretty Petunias Garden Center
Remax Bay Side Real Estate
Remcon/North
Sagecliff Software, Inc.
The Village Perk
Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad
GASCO Realty, LLC
51 Main Street, LLc
Inns & Spa at Mill Falls
Meredith Bay Painting
The Lake House Grille
Lago
Camp
Town Docks Restaurant
Mame's
The Gallery at Mill Falls
Oglethorp
Guiseppies Resturant
Northern Air Trading
Lady of the Lake Clothing
Adorments
Creative Clothing
Christopher P. Williams, Architect
Oak Street Associates
Old Mill Insurance
Innisfree Bookstore
Phoenix Leasing, Inc.
Silver Top Ventures
Minuteman Plumbing & Heating
Sava Designs
Horn Insurance
Harts Restaurant
Fermentation Station LLC
Hunter's
Waukewan Antiques
Village Greenery
Etcetera Shop
Associated Surveyors
Moulton Farm
Barber Pole Association
Trexler’s Marina
Land’s End
Wyman Trail Association
Loon Preservation Committee
1st T Development Corporation
The Woodshed Restaurant
Castle in the Clouds
Amoskeg Insurance
EPTAM Plastics
The Common Man Inn
Corner House Inn
Seacoast Kayak
Tilton Veterinary Hospital
Waterville Valley Condo Rental
Thurston’s Marina
Lighthouse Inn
Weirs Beach Motel and Cottages
Van's Hotel Enterprises
Wolfboro Inn
Island Real Estate of New Hampshire
LB Boat Restoration
Millie B
Wolfeboro Trolley Company
Wolfetrap Restaurant