That's about right for the ratio at present.

Four Winns owners aren't the problem.

So 100 "smaller" boats have less of a "lake footprint" than 1 "large, fast moving boat"???

There is no way that you can be serious.

I guess I'm no rocket scientist
 

Of course a larger boat "uses" more lake, because it is larger. Speed has nothing to do with making it "use" more lake. A 30 foot boat sitting still uses thirty feet of lake, when moving it still "uses" 30 feet of lake at a time. Once it moves out of the 30 feet it is currently using then another boat can "use" that same 30 feet of water. Now a faster moving 30 foot boat can experience more of the lake in an hour than a slower 30 foot boat, but it will still only use 30 feet at a time. A faster boat will have more of an effect on a a boat crossing its bow than a slower. It will also move out of the same boats "space" quicker. On the same note if you are trying to get to your dock and a fisherman in a 12 foot dinghy is stopped in front of it, then that smaller slower boat is also impacting how you use the lake. I don't get how this becomes part of the speed limit debate. The speed of a boat can affect others around it, but that speed could be standing still or going a bazzilion mph.

I'm totally serious about my formula, but the exact numbers will depend on the variables. Give me the footprint of a large boat and its average speed and I'll figure out how many of my sea kayaks it equals.

Of course speed is a factor! The amount of lake that you're using in a given time period is water that another boat can't use in that same time period.

Perhaps this will help: change the word "using" to "consuming."

Evenstar: As has already been said, one 30' boat uses 30' of lake at a time. One hundred 10' boats use 1000' of lake at a time

Ok,who do I sound like?"How come you guys resort to namecalling with demeaning statements like the above?This must be against the rules of this forum"."That is a libelist comment and you could be sued for slandering me."

So Ms rocket scientist,tell me again how 100 Boston Whalers have less carbon footprint than 1 GFBL boat.

OK....but
 

A boat does not "consume" water. By consuming you would mean that once a boat passed through a particular area of water, no other vessel could use that water.

Dictionary.com Consume - –verb (used with object) 1. to destroy or expend by use; use up.
2. to eat or drink up; devour.
3. to destroy, as by decomposition or burning: Fire consumed the forest.
4. to spend (money, time, etc.) wastefully.
5. to absorb; engross: consumed with curiosity.
–verb (used without object) 6. to undergo destruction; waste away.
7. to use or use up consumer goods.

The area of water that a boat occupies is based on its length, width, and height. And during the period of time that a boat occupies that area obviously no other boat can occupy the same space. But the boat doesn't consume that area, otherwise there would be a big hole in the lake after the boat passes. So while a faster boat would be able to go more places in a given period of time, it would not restrict another boat from going to the same places at a slower speed. This is why I don't understand how this gets pulled into the speed limit debate. And as I said in my last post the only impact a faster boat would have on other boaters is crossing bow to bow, or if a faster boat ran up on the stern of a slower boat. And "faster" is a relative term, since the "faster" boat only has to be going faster than the boats around it. Other than that a boat traveling at a slower speed actually consumes (to ues your term) a particular area of water longer than a faster boat. The worst offender of using a particualr area of lake would be someone at anchor, because no one else can use that particular piece of water until they move. So a larger boat anchored would have a very large "Lake Footprint" because there could be many kayaks floating in the same spot. If you had the ability to stop time and freeze all the boats on the lake. The boat going 100mph would not be consuming anymore of the lake than the same sized boat at anchor.

Now you have really lost it...

Your formula is crap. And honestly, who cares? At any given time a 30' GFBL takes up 240 square feet (less of course due to the taper of the hull), and a 30' family boat takes up the same. When that 30' GFBL moves forward at 60mph, the space that it has occupied is now vacant. At any given time each boat takes up the same amount of space. How much distance a boat can cover depending on their speed matters how???

There is nothing to debate here because what you are debating about is foolish and makes not one bit of sense. Carbon footprint? I am quite familiar with it and the whole carbon credit concept.

If scaring a few GFBL's away and replacing them with many family boats, don't you think the multiple engines will be more of a pollutant than a few 'high hp" boats?

Here, I will start your next sentence for you. "You cannot out-debate me so you choose to criticize me" ...

If there are 100 boats on the lake, each with its own 150 ft circle around it...how can that possibly take up more of the "lake footprint" than 1 boat with a single 150 ft circle around it?

Lets make a couple assumptions, then some calculations based on those.

1. A smaller "family" boat is a 23 ft bowrider. Average width might be 8 ft. You could say that the boat occupies 184 square feet (23 ft long x 8 ft wide). Not exactly accurate, but close enough.
2. A larger "fast" boat is a 32 footer. Average with probably about the same 8 ft. You could say that this boat occupies 256 square feet (32 ft long x 8 ft wide).

3. 100 smaller boats, each occupying 184 square feet, occupy 18,400 square feet (100 boats x 184 sf). This does not take into account the 150 ft circle around each. Sorry, that math is too much for me. ;) Let's just pretend they are all rafting.
4. 1 larger fast boat occupies 256 sf, as determined above. Same 150 ft circle too.

Conclusion-The 100 smaller boats occupy 18,144 FEWER square feet than 1 single larger boat...again, not taking the 150 ft circle into consideration (18,400-256).

So tell me again...how does 1 large boat have a larger footprint than 100 smaller boats?

My "rocket scientist" comment wasn't meant to be an insult in any way to you or to anyone. Did I state or even suggest that you were dumb? Did I state that I was a rocket scientist? No, I didn't do either, so get off my case. My comment was that it should be obvious a large, fast moving boat is using more of the lake surface area than a small, slow moving boat.

And I never made any comment about carbon footprints - so figure that one out yourself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Consume was not the best choice of words - I was just trying to make a point and I have language issues, so I sometimes don't use the correct word. But your own quoted definition, #7. to use or use up consumer goods. Boats on a lake are using the water that they sit on or pass through.

Perhaps "Impact" in a better word. In this case "Recreational Impact" is directly related to your "Lake Footprint" (which is determined by using my formula).
----------------------------------------------------------------

Again, the exact number would depend on the variables. But here's an example:

My sea kayak's footprint on the water is around 28 square feet. My friend has the same kayak. And we generally paddle pretty close to each other. Since we never travel faster than no wake speed, we don't have to stay 150 feet from each other, or from any other boat (or the shore, or anything else). So we're each only using 28 square feet of the lake. But, to be fair, I'll add a 5 foot area around each kayak, which increases our footprint to 48 sf.

A 30 x 8 foot powerboat's footprint is 240 square feet. When it is traveling above no wake speed its footprint increases to 17,911 sf, since it now includes the area contained within the 150 foot circle surrounding it.

In this example, the powerboat's footprint equals 373 of our sea kayaks. Is this clear enough for everyone?

Crystal clear. Now do me a favor and calculate the footprint of 100 powerboats versus 1 powerboat.

Again...how does 1 "fast" boat have more of a footprint than 100 "smaller" boats? Is this a clear enough question for you?

Wtf
 

You mentioned carbon footprint in post #155. Also, the original statement by Turtle Boy in post #151 was that he'd take 100 Boston Whalers over 1 GFBL boat anyday, so you can't use the numbers for kayaks to argue the original statement.

Wow!
 

:eek:

BI you're starting to sound like the only sane person in your camp now.

Evenstar, Ya's gotta be kidding with the kayak math again. Seriously, you're way overboard here.

TB, 100 runabouts versus just ONE GFBL boat? What happened to congestion?

There has to be a group of pragmatic people out there that isn't on one extreme or another. Talk about cocky and arrogant.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most informed people would know that when someone uses the phrase "you don't have to be a rocket scientist" that it refers to "you don't have to be too intelligent ".Is that clear enough for you?You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that or the fact that you DID make a comment about carbon footprints in that same post.Is this clear enough?

Vt Steve...I'm surprised you're having so much trouble with the concept. People on my shore would agree that the passing of 100 small boats in the course of an afternoon is just quiet background noise and preferable to the load roar of just 1 GFBL going by in a manner such that all conversation is impossible. In fact, lots of people feel this way. They were the grass roots effort behind the passage of HB 847.
So who's being cocky and arrogant? HB 847 passed and you need to get over it and move on.

I thought it was about safety
 

I don't read anything about noisy boats.

Why speed limits from the WINNFABS website.

"Safety

HB 847 sets reasonable, commonsense 45 MPH daytime and 25 MPH nighttime speed limits on the Lake, which will slow everyone down, allowing more reaction and stopping time. This will, in turn, allow better prevention of boating accidents and close calls for the public safety of all.

Lake Winnipesaukee is a family vacation destination, not a race track. Just as we have speed limits on our highways, the boat congestion on Lake Winnipesaukee and the increasing number of boats traveling at speeds in excess of 45 mph is a cause for alarm.

Boats have no brakes, brake lights, head lights or side mirrors. And Lake Winnipesaukee, unlike our highways, doesn’t have lane markings, traffic signs, traffic lights. What the lake does have is a highly inconsistent surface (bumpy waves), wind and often compromised visibility supporting its varied lake users, frequently children, teens and families in small craft.

Imagine driving a car across a parking lot at highway speed. Imagine a variety of traffic traveling at speeds ranging from 5 - 80+ mph. Imagine no traffic signs, no lane dividers, no turns signals. Now, imagine suddenly running into a series of 3-ft deep potholes. You don’t need to imagine this situation. You need to boat on Lake Winnipesaukee. "

What the speed limit people want to do is ignore reality.

The reality is the average size of the boat on this lake is getting larger. How many 30’ foot boats did you see in 1991, 2001 or now.

There are more docks now in 2008 than there were in 2001 or in 1991. We even have marinas in 2008 that we did not have in 1998 .

A lot of Marinas have expanded…. West Alton, Parker Marine, Gilian, Lakeport landing…etc. these Marinas have added docks and have added to their in/out ability.

So if marinas are expanding you would have to assume that boat traffic is increasing. Now look at the increased number of homes on the lake and the significant docking systems they have built and you can see another source of increased boats.

So there will be more boats on the lake every year. It is a trend that has been going on for more than 30 years. And yes Marinas will expand to meet this demand as they have been doing for the past 30 years. Legislation will not stop this as we live in a free market society.

There will be NO legislations to limit horsepower, size of boats or whatever because of the money that is being generated by these boats (registrations, taxes on docks, etc). The State and Towns did not lose any money implementing a speed limit and it was such a “feel good” law they went with it. But don't mess with their income stream.

So again what the speed limit people did was to increase the rate of this growth with the misguided thought that people would go away from one of the most beautiful lakes in New Hampshire… yea, that makes sense.

There were loud passings everyday way over 20 years ago. The noise lasted longer then, since the boats were slower. Maybe the niche groups were the grass roots efforts, but the congestion is noted by many as the main problem on the lake. The passing of 100 smaller boats may in fact be quieter, but that's about it. Most lakes have noise limitations, I think Winni does as well. You and I both know the best way to mitigate the noise, is to lower the decibel limits. Pretty tricky stuff huh?

So my original assertion stands. People like BI that wanted less congestion overall will have to wait for another day. People like you that just want the GFBL boats to leave might be happy, but I doubt it. In any case, I'd prefer a dozen GFBL boats going by my camp instead of 100 of anything else.

Foot Print 28ft?
 

O.K. I have to disagree with Evenstar's 28ft square foot usage of water. If we have to obey a 150' rule, then I think her footprint is much larger than the 28ft.

You are either not a waterfront land owner or are just plain nuts. 100 boats in an afternoon is congestion, 1 passing quickly making more noise would be much more pleasing to me than dealing with constant noise and wakes all afternoon long. When was the last time a boat went by your house and was loud enough from a few hundred feet away that you actually could not hold a conversation (especially considering at speed it is in your close proximity for 30 seconds or less)?

1.) Yes, I MENTIONED the term, but I didn’t make any COMMENT about it. Making a comment about something generally means that you’re expressing an opinion about it – which I didn’t do.
2.) I wasn’t arguing the original statement, I was just replying directly to chipj29, who asked: “So tell me again...how does 1 large boat have a larger footprint than 100 smaller boats?” He didn’t state that those 100 boats had to be powerboats – so I had every right to use any type of boat, including sea kayaks – even if it proves a point that you and some others here would like to disregard.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


There is absolutely nothing wrong with my math. Just because you don’t like the results, gives you no right to insult me. How am I “way overboard”???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here’s a better (hopefully) explanation on why speed is a factor:
Your impact on others on the lake is directly related to how much of the lake you are using. So, unless you are traveling in tight circles, a boat traveling at higher speeds will use a larger percentage of the lake in the same period of time than a boat that is traveling at slower speeds. (A kayaker who just paddles around in a small bay is using a very small percentage of the lake. The same would be true for a fisherman, who just trolls in a small bay all afternoon.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


You can disagree all you want with me, but the 150 foot rule only applies to boats that are traveling faster that headway speed – and I can’t paddle faster than 6 mph. The actual footprint of my sea kayak is around 28 sf. But I used 48 sf in my calculations, since I included a 5 foot buffer (17,922 / 48 = 373.15). I was being generous with the 5 foot circle, since there is no minimum distance that I have to remain from other kayaks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those who took my question: “Is this clear enough for everyone?” the wrong way, I’m sorry – I was just trying to make sure that I was explaining things clearly.

Bold #1
You are so full of it. You replied to my post #169, in which I specifically referred to a family boat being a bowrider.

Bold #2
The 150ft rulle absolutely applies to kayaks. Other boats have to stay more than 150ft away from you, no matter your speed. Therefore you have the same 150ft circle as all other watercraft, powered or not.

Not if the other boats are at headway speed.

This "faster boats use more of the lake" argument is silly. Any rocket scientist could tell you an obect does not increase in mass or volume due to speed. A 30' boat is a 30' boat no matter how fast it's going. The only time a boat "uses" excessive lake space is when it occupies space in an area too narrow or too congested to pass it safely at speed.

I think what many people may be missing here..and maybe Evenstar has not been able to get across...She May Be concerned that the Footprint...of a Scary GFBL may coincide with the footprint of a Sea Kayak...at the same time...and place. Would that be considered assimilation? :look:

So, why all the noise about speeding boats invading your space?!

All of a sudden, for the convenience of your hypothesis, your kayak doesn't require other boaters traveling at greater than headway speed to keep 150 feet from you.

They do and that means you have a 150' circle around you; hence the true footprint of your kayak when on the Lake.

To debate or debase, that is the question...

"Definitions of comment on the Web:

* make or write a comment on; "he commented the paper of his colleague"
* remark: a statement that expresses a personal opinion or belief or adds information; "from time to time she contributed a personal comment on his account"
* a written explanation or criticism or illustration that is added to a book or other textual material; "he wrote an extended comment on the proposal"
* explain or interpret something"

You were using the term "carbon footprint" to explain something, thus it's not erroneous for anyone to state that you commented about it.

As for the type of boat, you know damn well the original statement was about 100 Boston Whalers. Your decision to ignore that invalidates your equation.

It was used successfully at the Senate transportation committee hearing.

Another Math question for Evenstar
 

The Easter Seal Poker Run generated $75,000 for a non-profit. Now with the speed limit next year, they may not hold another poker run.

So how many kayakers will it take to generate this lost revenue?????

You have absolutely no right to insult me, just because I support the lake speed limit law. I am doing my best to be clear in what I post - if you do not understand what I wrote, please ask me to clarify, rather than judge me on what you think my motives were.

1.) I was replying ONLY to your final question in that post. Since you did not limit your question to only powerboats, I didn’t feel that my answer needed to be limited to powerboats. I was just showing how it is possible for 1 powerboat to have a larger footprint than 100 smaller boats (I used my sea kayak as an example, since I knew its dimensions). I was NOT trying to start an argument here, just show how it is indeed possible. It is not my fault that you didn’t use the word “power” in your question.

2.) The 150 foot circle only applies to boats traveling at speeds over 6 mph. It does not apply to boats that are stationary or that are moving at 6mph or less. The buffer must be maintained by the fast boat, not by a boat traveling at 6 mph or less. When a fast moving boat slows down to 6 mph, it no longer is required to stay 150 feet away from other boats or from the shore.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Rose, I explained both already – to the best of my ability. You don’t have to like my explanations, but they are my honest reasons. You can’t just invalidate my calculations just because you don’t like the results. My equation is totally valid.
------------------------------------------------------------------

This part is not directed at anyone in particular:

Look, I’ve explained this before, but it just gets dismissed as invalid as well: Due to a severe head injury when I was very young, I have a language problem, which affects my ability to write. Because of this, writing a reply is very difficult for me and it takes me a very long time. I do the best I can, so having every word in my posts dissected as an attempt to discredit me is very unfair. I do not have any hidden agenda at all. I’m extremely honest and literal – I can’t help it. I’m very transparent, and I do my best to answer any comments directed at me as clearly as I can. Yet others here feel that it is ok to constantly insult me, just because I have a different opinion than them.
------------------------------------------------------------------

You need more than one known variable in order to solve a math problem. Besides, this is actually more of a legal question, which I’ll try to answer:

From the text of HB 847: “(d) The speed limitations set forth in subparagraph (b) shall not apply to boat racing permitted under RSA 270:27.” From RSA 270:27: “Boat Racing. – No commercial boat, private boat or sail boat shall race with another such boat over a predetermined course on any of the public waters of the state unless the course is laid out and marked in a manner satisfactory to the director of safety services and said race is held under a permit issued by said director to a recognized sponsoring organization stating the date and place of the race.”

The speed limit still allows for races, just as long as you obtain a permit for one.

You never answered my question: If barefoot water skiing competitions are limited to a top speed of 43.2 mph, why can't you still enjoy your hobby at speeds up to 45 mph?

Evenstar: Poker runs are not races so I do not think that entrants would be allowed to exceed the speed limit. It is certainly a shame to loose all that income for some great causes. :(

I thought that you had to go real fast for barefooting as well. I guess it depends on the person. For example using the below info my ideal speed would be around 42mph but I have small feet so maybe more? My son would be about 25 mph. I did talk to a friend of mine that is nationally ranked and he runs much faster however....

This is the guideline that I found.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ideal Barefoot Speed

The old rule of thumb is:

Your weight divided by 10 + 20

This is just a general rule so you will need to experiment with whatever speed works best for you (the size of your feet can make a difference too). As you progress, you will probably want to go faster since the water feels much harder and easier to "stand" on at higher speeds. A few MPH makes a big difference! However, the falls are harder too so don't get too drastic with higher speeds!

I honestly think you are either have trouble remembering some posts that you make, or that you are full of it. I really should not have had to point out that I was discussing 1 "fast" boat versus 100 "smaller" boats, meaning family bowriders, which I pointed to specifically in my post. Reread post #169 that I made, and tell me where I was not being specific about the type of boats I was discussing.
Sorry if that insults you, but I stand behind it...I believe you were being disingenious.

In mathematics, if you are given a problem with certain constants and certain variables, you can't throw out what doesn't fit into your solution of the equation. You'd get a big, red X on your paper. So, yes, I can invalidate your equation. It has nothing to do with liking your answer or not.

The guy with small feet and big butts
 

Where's the heck are you getting your information? Here are the rule books to ABC and IWSF sanction races. There is no mention of speed limits other than safe and prudent speed.

http://barefoot.org/technical.htm

Broadhopper just wrote that the Easter Seal Poker Run may not held next year due to the speed limit, which becomes effective next year.

You disagree with Broadhopper that the Easter Seal Poker Run relies on speed for its success?

The two things might not be linked. You are assuming the Poker Run would be canceled because they can't go fast.

It could be that the Poker Run would be canceled because there are fewer boats on the lake to take part in it.

In my opinion they would not be as successfull as they are with the speed boats. Not only are the speed boats a draw to the event for people with out boats but they are also the ones that are dropping the big cash for donations and such. I have not been to many poker runs were there were a lot of sailboats or family trucksters running around. I guess it would be easy enough to figure out. How much was raised by the Kayakers or sailboaters at their events VS. this poker run? No matter what it is a great loss for the charrity

Footprint
 

Evenstar, if I am traveling at 7 miles per hour, your foot print is larger than 28ft.

Guidlines
 

The guidlines Evenstar refers to for everyone else but herself in certain instances, i.e. devices to be used so boaters have a better visual, kind of sound like Barak Obama claiming "that cars in Boston are currently melting the Polar Ice Cap"? What!
Anybody see the report on NECN the other day with regards to the Olympics being held in Bejing and the unbelievable amounts of pollution in Bejing. If residents have to wear masks during the day in Bejing during bad pollution days, what is he talking about.
I guess he was afrain to criticize the Chinese, much easier to cristicize our own country! Geez!

Now you're just trying to start an argument. I already explained this in detail: "The 150 foot circle only applies to boats traveling at speeds over 6 mph. It does not apply to boats that are stationary or that are moving at 6mph or less. The buffer must be maintained by the fast boat, not by a boat traveling at 6 mph or less. When a fast moving boat slows down to 6 mph, it no longer is required to stay 150 feet away from other boats or from the shore."

It is perfectly legal for two kayak to paddle inches from each other.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

No it isn't - but yours is.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chipj29 and Rose: I explained myself as clearly as I know how, but you two just want to argue. I made it extremely clear that that I was only responding to the final question: “So tell me again...how does 1 large boat have a larger footprint than 100 smaller boats?” I was not responding to the entire post - I DO have the right to do that you know. How often do others here respond to just one sentence (or just one word) in my posts? I was being totally sincere and totally honest in my reply - so quit judging me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I posted this earlier: According to the American Barefoot Club: "In the United States, USA Water Ski sanctions more than 50 barefoot tournaments each year. . . . Barefoot water ski events – wake slalom, tricks and jumping – are similar to the three events in traditional water skiing. Differences arise in the speed of the boat and the skier (depending upon age division, barefoot events are sometimes faster, with a top speed for the Open Division of 43.2 mph)."

Maximum speeds are given in the 2008 ABC & IWSF Barefoot Water-Ski Rulebook, on p.58:
"C 1405) BOAT SPEED AND PATH
A) The nominated boat speed shall be at the option of the contestant, up to a maximum of 72kph ± 1.5 kph or 44.7 mph ± 1 mph."

Foot Print
 

Evenstar, I am required by law to stay 150 feet from you when I am going a "fast" 7 miles per hour. I am not required to stay away from my self. I need to stay away 150 feet away from you, hence your foot print is larger than 28ft.