I don't think that "increased boat traffic" is a good selling point of a speed limit.

I'm not sure what lake you boat on, but speed is not, and has never been a main factor in any accident on the lake.

The speed survey showed that 0.29% of the boats were travelling at a rate of speed greater than 45mph. That's not even 1%!!!!

This survey also doesn't account for those 0.29% that were driving recklessly....

I agree with you in theory...but this is about people who USE the lake. The forum members here USE the lake. The speed limit would apply to people who USE the lake. Why do people who do NOT use the lake care either way about a speed limit?

And what's with the "wild west" thing? Is it really that bad on the lake? I think not.

maybe you're right though one has to look at the kind of traffic....low impact, 15 HP, 150 HP, 15 MPH, 30 MPH, vs high impact, 800 HP, 70 MPH. We have a saying where I work that 95% of the complaints and problems are generated by 5% of the people. I see similar examples on Winni.

Whatever you do, don't ask any of the speed limit supporters to show evidence that excessive speed (over the proposed limits) is a main factor in any accidents on the lake. They will give one example from a night time accident a couple years ago, and that is all they have.

What one thing do a majority of the boating accidents have in common?
Here is a hint...it begins with a guy named AL...

If this forum were entirely filled with members who oppose speed limits, then you'd have a valid point. But it is not. It is a forum comprised of members of the Lakes Region and surrounding commumities, so your comparisons and metaphors are illogical and false.

please consult any basic reference on polling and you will understand why this forum could be no more valid than polling Kentucky or Oregon alone about who should be the next president.

I agree with your points in theory, BUT.....if someone's going to do a poll about speed limits on Lake Winnipesaukee, I would AT LEAST expect the people being polled to be FIRST asked if they have EVER operated a powerboat and, if so, have they ever operated said boat on Lake Winnipesaukee. I see no point in asking the average person on the street with no boating experience if there is a need for a speed limit on the lake.

Ryan please see my post from 4:05 PM...a poll derived entirely from a single forum violates all accepted basic tenets and fundamentals of statistics, polling and sampling error. Any statitition or pollster will tell you a poll of only this forum would have zero validity.

Since we're just going to reference prior posts, please see Wolfboro Baja's post from above.

Unfortunately, this has been hashed out over and over again, and you're not going to win in this crowd.

So, let's move on to our 0.29% of reckless boaters that are going to be scooped up and moved off the lake in 2009!!!!

The thoughts of mass safety are almost palpable!!!!

[QUOTE=Ryan;70966]Since we're just going to reference prior posts, please see Wolfboro Baja's post from above.

Unfortunately, this has been hashed out over and over again, and you're not going to win in this crowd.

At last, something we can both agree upon.

I'm not sure about the thoughts of mass safety being palpable but the thoughts of mass tranquility are very palpable.

I've read all your posts today so please don't ask me to read them again. Ok so from your posts you seem intelligent enough to realize that your analogy of polling a bar for alcohol laws is ludicrous and silly. Alcoholism affects millions, actually just about everyone. Boating on this lake affects those who boat on this lake. Polling people in Manchester who do not use this lake or do not intend to use this lake is, in one succinct word stupid. Polling a website dedicated to this lake and the users of this lake carries far more validity IMO. Please tell me, without using metaphor, how and why you disagree with this. Keep in mind The Lake Winnipesaukee Forum is read by, posted on and frequented by lovers and users of Lake Winnipesaukee. Boaters, Kayakers, Waterskiers, Swimmers, Sailors, Residents, Vacationers, etc. etc. I would argue that this site directly reflects a cross section of the make up of the users of this lake. So are you suggesting that only the Speed Limit opponents are the ones who post on this site? I suggest that based on the poll done here and all of the discussion here that this forum, again a direct cross section of the populous of the lake, is largely against a speed limit. So why is it that the non-users of this lake are telling the users of this lake how we should use our lake? :confused:

Do you have any objective data to this point or is it just your opinion? Again, any statitician or pollster would agree that a poll from a single forum like this has zero validity. How about if we polled members of the Lake's Region Conservation Trust or NH Lakes Assoc.? Their results would be equally biased. Why...because people of like opinions tend to belong to forums reflecting their views.

So, that being said, I've read in these pages that our Reps. and Senators are "hacks" that should be voted out of office, a poll of NH voters asking what they feel is right for their lakes has no relevence, and seen rather vicious attacks to anyone with dissenting opinions contrary to those prevailing on this site. Yet the bill passed despite the, what was it, 85 % of people on this forum's poll who feel a speed limit is unnecessary? Maybe it's a great big conspiracy???

Apparently, you have not read much into these pages, as just as recently as Monday, there was a discussion surrounding some of the Op Ed pieces published by the pro speed limit force. I suggest you take a look at that discussion before you start tossing around "conspiracy" theories...

yes indeed I have read the trashing of Sandy Helve articles and that now even letters to the editor need to have annotated references. Oh well, if you don't like the message, attack the messenger.

The debate was over the questionable content in her op ed piece.

Her background came into question well after.

And that example was an estimate..............

Then, again, perhaps someone is fine-tuning their spin skills, in preparation for the November election spinathon.

Then, again, perhaps the second string has been called to duty since a certain poster is noticeable absent from the ongoing diatribe.

And Global Warming gonna get you before Al or Speedo GFBL does.


Boooooo :eek:


Just think, Winni will be part of the ocean, and the boats will get larger and faster. Kinda skeery isn't it?

Hmmm, Turtle Boy has his first 13 posts in 7 hours all looking to pick a fight. I wouldn't go as far as to call him a troll, but he is pretty close. As soon as I can figure out that ignore feature, I think I'll make use of it.

Yo Turtle Boy,

If the proponents did not make up "facts", no one would question the source of their numbers. However, this whole issue of 'speed limits needed to improve safety on the lake' is a "house of cards". That is why knowledgeable people question Winnfabs "facts". In almost every case, the "facts" have been fiction.

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time! (This is not an original statement, but I do not remember who said it first.) :) When I see, read or hear something that I know is untrue or a big stretch of the facts, I ask questions. I am sure that is what the others are doing as well. That is what knowledgeable folks should be doing.

I hope this explains the behavior. No one is attacking any messenger, but they have every right to seek the truth.

R2B

Speed kills
 

This law has been a big waste of time and is almost impossible to enforce. Lets be real here people.. We live in a state where huge SUVs drive inches from Massive Walmart Eighteen wheelers doing Eighty mile per hour.. Legally......... For gods sake, Now they want a forty five mile limit on open water...

Pass the Weed Law, do something useless state reps.......

Waste of tax payers money.. in my opinion...

Ummmm yeah it's my opinion. Didn't I make that crystal clear when I said:

I would argue that this site directly reflects a cross section of the make up of the users of this lake.

Did I really need to add the "in my opinion" statement???

So it's pretty obvious that you skimmed my post but you didn't really read it. Why does this poll have Zero validity. Is that YOUR opinion. Point me to the statistician that tells me that the Manchester Poll had more or ANY validity to it. This forum brings LIKE MINDED individuals together. People who LIKE the lake. Not people who like to go fast in fast boats. If you even read one tenth of the posts on this forum you would know that most of the opponents here on this site DO NOT own Go Fast Boats. So much for your theories and cute analogies. I'd say you're back to square one. Good try though. ;)

All I ask is that you review any basic statistics/polling reference. Boy, they say the Winnfabs crowd is angry and has no sense of humor. Have you considered switching to decaf?

What?? What statistics do you have to back this statement up? I would really be interested in a more factual statement than this. This is nothing more than a simple propeganda statement with zero merit and no basis.

OK, and what statistics do you have to refute this statement?

You have the burden of proof, not I. You claim the lake has this alledged "wild west, anything goes" mentality then you have to prove it. You can't just make up stuff willy nilly. You have to have proof.

OK, you say this is nothing more than a propeganda (sic) statement...what do you want? A recorded statement from a GFBL boater who yelled from the top of his lungs "Yee Hah, this is the wild west" while traveling through the entrance to Winter Harbor at 70 MPH on Aug 2nd, 2006? Get real.

Turtle Boy,

If you have any boating experience on Lake Winnipesaukee, you clearly realize how wrong and deceptive your "wild west, anything goes" statement really is. Almost every boater on the lake respects the rules, the safety of other boaters, the 150' rule and the No Wake Zones. However, there are a few boaters that are "Capt. Boneheads" that have less than appropriate respect for the rules. These folks are a small minority, but the real and big problem.

If your cause is to educate and eliminate this small minority of "Captain Boneheads" you will find total and complete agreement from the opposition side of the speed limit issue. This is the real safety issue and every boater on the lake knows this. However, if you have other intentions, then keep up your trolling.

R2B

I'd like you to not make statements to further your opinion that are off the chart ridiculous

If trolling means holding people accountable for their statements expressed on this forum, then...guilty as charged. And I rest my case that this forum is not in the least bit representative of a true cross section of the Winni boating population. goodnight (and slow down, maybe you'll spot a turtle or two).

Unlimited Speeds - NOT. and the DIfference between Trolling and Flooding
 

One of the problems I have with Evenstar and some of the other pro 45/25 speed limit crusaders is their constant cry about the alleged Wild West atmosphere of boaters here. They claim reckless UNLIMITED SPEED is making our lake unsafe. They keep pushing the scary misleading concept of Unlimited Speeds by boaters. The facts have been presented numerous times that clearly show that there are laws in place making it illegal to boat unsafely. Unreasonable speeds are unsafe. Reasonable and safe speeds vary depending on the day, the season, the weather, the conditions and the traffic. There are already laws regarding reasonable, safe speeds on the lake.

Sorry to disagree with you ITD, especially in this thread, but I believe you are wrong. Just plain wrong :rolleye1:! I don't think that our two new-this-month members are trolling. We are all entitled to our opinions and in my opinion I'd say they were FLOODING.

I almost gave up wading through all the messages in this thread today that came from just 2 people. I had a few items to address to Evenstar regarding her question to me but I'll have to wait until my head stops spinning from all of todays messages. while I was writing this several other exchanges already took place. Whew!

This forum clearly is a cross section of all people with an interest in life on and around the lake. We have had a lively discussion from good people on both sides of a highly charged issue. Although at times, people, including myself, stepped over the line, the discussion, for the most part had excellent representation from both sides of this issue.

For someone who joined this forum within the last week, with almost all posts looking start arguments with other posters, I must question your intentions. Your posts look like the posts of a troll to me. I see no real effort to hold people accountable on your behalf. It looks like pure trolling to me, but to be fair, that is not my call.

For the record, I do not drink coffee, so do not mention your cute little decaf statement to me. I also know a real turtle when I meet one, and unless the turtles have signifacantly lowered their standards recently, you are a trutle in your definition only.

YBYSAIM!

R2B

Again, if flooding means holding people accountable for their statements expressed on this forum...guilty as charged. And as before , this forum is not representative of the Winni boating population in general. So, goodnight, and slow down...maybe you'll see a turtle or two.

HB847 was for all NH lakes until it was amended, and that’s what I supported - but now I have to settle for just Winni. HB167 also include some NH ocean waters – that bill failed.

I have to make long posts to reply, since I’m limited to the number that I can post each day. Well over 90% of what I post are direct replies to other members – hence all my quotes. I’m not “looking to pick a fight,” but I will continue to defend myself. No, you are misquoting me – I called the flag silly, not the person. That is not personal attack. And I merely corrected your use of what I saw as an incorrect term – I wasn’t making light of anything. I also explained that I am very literal, yet you just ignored that completely, but instead judged me and essentially called me a hypocrite. Just today, in this post, Hazelnut called me a liar - again. That is a personal attack. It is intentional and it is done with malice. You are not the one being attacked personally, so it’s really easy four you to suggest that someone else whose is being attacked should just ignore the posts. I have the right to defend myself and will continue to do so. And your advice is really not very helpful at all when it is mostly full of insults.

GWC, complaining about having my posts moderated, and giving my opinion on the apparent slant of this forum is not a personal attack on the webmaster.

My word is the evidence. I don’t lie. And I’m not exaggerating. And my best friend was with me, and she will back me up – and she has in public hearings. I don’t have any hidden agenda. I honestly believe that a speed will make any lake safer for paddlers. You can disagree with me all you want, but I have a right to stand up for my beliefs.

How did you ever manage to twist my logic into believing that I think it is ok to paddle in the path of the Mount??? Please point to where I ever even suggested anything like that. I do my best to give powerboats as much space as possible – I never cut them off and I never paddle in the path of larger boats. I have kayaked and sailed on large ocean bays where there are shipping lanes, with ships many times larger than the Mount. At my university I work at the waterfront and am in charge of students use of kayaks on the bay. So I really do know what I’m doing and I do have way more logic than you give me credit for.

Our kayaks are made for large bodies of water – and we are very visible to most boaters. I am not being unreasonable to demand that powerboat operators travel at speeds that will allow them to stay well out of our 150 foot zones. If they can’t do that, they are going too fast.

I was under the impression that the purpose of the Winnipesaukee Forum is: "To facilitate communication and an exchange of information which is productive and beneficial for those interested in Lake Winnipesaukee and the Lakes Region of New Hampshire."

So how are personal attacks on me by several members at once being “productive and beneficial”? How are repeated attacks on my ability, my knowledge, my age, and my experience in line with the stated goals of this forum? This is supposed to be a place for everyone to share information – not just for information from one point of view. I’m a very strong advocate for recreation and for NH lakes – and for boating. And a sea kayak is just as much a boat as any powerboat – it’s just a different type of boat.

I don’t mind being in the minority – I’m used to that. What I do mind is not being treated fairly, and people who treat me without respect, just because I’m outnumbered here. That is discrimination. And that is wrong on any forum.

There are forum rules that every member agrees to follow. These rules clearly state that personal attacks are not allowed. Yet I constantly have to defend myself from personal attacks in this forum – and I really shouldn’t have to.

Skip, you and others constantly underestimate me. I’ve had my own international website and forums for years – which I designed, administer, and moderate - and I have two other moderators to help me do the job properly. I do not allow personal attacks on my website. Why have rules unless they are actually going to be enforced?

Thanks so much for standing up for me! But I feel really bad that doing so has now made you a target as well.

I took a quick look at your last 21 post and it struck me that you get a certain flavor by simply reading the first few words of each. I am not suggesting what that impression is so don’t flame me. I will leave it for you to interpret.

While you were busy not attacking anyone you said.

<O:p</O:p
Because of the size factor! Winni is not “just like the ocean”…
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You guys love using this argument, No, the two lakes are not…
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No I didn’t Others make it an issue by trying to …
<O:p</O:p
The “Kayak math” insult was from another thread…
<O:p</O:p
You guys love using our state motto to protect your own freedoms…
<O:p</O:p
My two statements were meant to be separate…
<O:p</O:p
Skip, I did read all your post and was not bring critical…
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You need to stop judging me and refrain from attacking me…
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Look, I’m just trying to be nice by pointing out…
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The key words here are “when nobody is around”…
<O:p</O:p
My “entire argument” is that paddlers should be…
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I “get the math” just fine and I seriously doubt…
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There was nothing fast about the way that this…
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I thought this was supposed to be a discussion on a ….
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From the Forum Rules: “No trolling” (trying…
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My statement when taken in context, is that some…
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I’ve never paddled on Lake George, in MA or in…
<O:p</O:p
Oops, I hit submit too soon on my last reply…
<O:p</O:p
Haven’t you guys got better things to do?
<O:p</O:p
Yes, I believe the speed study was flawed
<O:p</O:p
I’m not saying that you weren’t trying to be….

Again with this lie! Give it a rest!



If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger.... Or say that he is flooding or trolling.



Do some of you people really think the poll on this forum has any kind of validity? I thought you were kidding, but now I think some of you are so deluded you think it means something.:laugh: Its on a boating forum!!!:laugh: Plus the only people left here are the few (the very few) that are against speed limits, and a couple of die hards that refuse to be run of by the bad manners of the need for speed crowd.

You are a turtle too !
 

I vaguely remember that I too am a Turtle :laugh: You bet'cha.

Since we're both turtles, who is going to pick up the next round?

By the way, it seems someone has tried to make their own definition of trolling and flooding. Do you think they fully comprehend the forum guidelines?

For Islander. It has been shown that unsafe operation on the Lake is illegal. Unreasonable speed is unsafe and therefore illegal. You give it a rest - it won't change no matter how many times you say it. We wouldn't want people to get the wrong idea would we?

Talk about quoting someone out of context!!!! I could do the same thing to anyone's words who has ever posted here - but that would be wrong. And you have the gaul to ask that I not flame you for such a contrived attack on me and on my posts???!!! Give me a break.

And I still stand by my statement that I have never attacked another member, except in my own defense. Show me just one instance where I have done otherwise - because taking a bunch of stuff completely out of context proves nothing.