No Wake at the Barbers Pole...???
 

I heard today that there is now a no wake zone though the Barber's Pole... What's up with that -How did that get passed so fast??? It seemed just last month there was light discussion now it's official???... Can anyone confirm?? I hope this is just a rumor that I am not spreading:emb:

Another thread has the info
 

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ad.php?t=10413

Please see this thread, you will have to pick through some unrelated shrapnel but the info is there. It was approved and it is pretty large.

It was discussed at length in this thread:
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ad.php?t=10413

What a SAD state of affairs this Lake has turned into. Just a shame!! I see it going down and getting worse every single year, one way or the other. It is truely a shame what the people are doing to this, Once upon a time Great lake! Trying to make it a privatized personal pond is not the way to go.

Is the Barber Pole even there anymore? I went by where I thought it was, and didn't see it...

Yesterday
 

Went through the Barber Pole area. No signs yet. I wonder if you have to wait til they post the signs or there is going to be a sneak attack! :eek:

Maybe Skip can clarify this situation as well as what infractions appear on our driver's record.

I had an infraction in NC last fall. In NC was unaware I was in a right turn only lane and did not turn right. The infraction appeared on my driver's record. I found out last spring when I got pulled over in Belmont NH because I had a rear tail light out. Instead of a defective tag, the officer fined me $62. The town must be really hurting! :rolleye1:

Appeal?
 

The following web site http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/h...s/aboutus.html
says the following about hearings: "the results are subject to appeal"

So if anyone is inclined I guess an appeal is allowed the way I read it.

Well said! I had a discussion last week with a globally experienced boater (owns property in Central Am. and sailed to places I can not pronounce or spell). He was recently boating somewhere off Massachusetts and he commented on how disappointing it is to have so many laws and restrictions on such a beautiful lake. The rules are crowding out common sense and boating etiquette. Now the flood gates are open to more and more limits. We are going for the technicality of law instead of intent so this process will continue until every square inch of the resource is requlated by constrictive rules. I will not dwell on or forcast the future but feel for the next generation that will not realize the open enjoyment that we have had in our lifetime.

I still plan to enjoy my weekends on Winnipesaukee and my weeks on this Forum!!!!

I imagine the folks that live by the Hole in the Wall and the gap between Little Bear and Long Island will be appealing...

Makes very little difference to me, I don't venture up that way very often and when I do, I often go though the Hole in Wall for fun or around the other side of Little Bear to avoid traffic, but I think it's sad that it's come to this.

Wonder how long it'll take milfoil to get a stronghold in the shallow parts of the NWZ once the wakes stop? I'm pretty sure milfoil does not tolerate boat wakes very well.

I didn't go by this past weekend, but it wasn't there the past few weeks. I think it was last year that it was taken down for painting - it shouldn't need to be prettied up again so soon.

Any infractions that you receive while boating can be fought so that not to appear on your driving record.

Whats the rush
 

Dont understand why anyone would complain about this.. It gets a little tight in there at times.. This lake needs more no wake areas ..

I live right around the corner from the barbers pole. My family also has a place on the mainland next to the pole. If people followed the current rules (150') there would be no need for the no wake zone. Its amazing to me that people keep wanting more and more rules.

I still say everyone who thinks Winni is "Scary" should spend and afternoon ANYWHERE else on the water.

Went for a sail out of Newburyport a few weeks ago and as we were heading out of the narrow inlet The Harbor master passed us 30' to starboard going 25mph and Tow Boat US was 30' off port going 25MPH, At the same time....

We all waved to each other and had a good sail....

Its all these new LOW VoC paints that we are required to use in NH. They just don't last as long.:D

I don't understand the complaints either. Some of the best times on my boat are at no wake speeds....sight seeing, conversing, etc. I can't understand the mentality where people feel a boat has only 2 speeds...stop and full throttle. And so many people go past the 2 little islands just 150' from shore...I felt sorry for the people on shore.

Apparently, there's a lot to sort out in that area SOTD. I had never boated there much, so I've pretty much lost track of the layout in my mind. I'll have to defer to people that live and boat in that area, they seem to know it best. Some property owners there have mixed feelings, so I gather it's mostly a weekend thing, and mostly Saturdays at that. It's too bad so many boaters have built up an arrogance that outweighs whatever common sense and courtesy they ever had :(

I also don't see this as a speed issue. The vast majority of boaters can usually be found in the 25 mph to 35 mph range on any given day. That's usually my range as well. It's a fairly gentle speed range, and most boats can calmly, and safely, sightsee and boat in that range. People that cannot cruise safely at those speeds have no business being in a boat IMHO.

If you look at a previous post, perhaps in the other thread, you'll see what happened when a MP was present in the area. Just as on the roadways, people seem to immediately recall the laws and common courtesy when a LEO is around watching. This indicates to me that the problems in areas like these are caused by attitude, lack of common courtesy, and an arrogance that belies the freedom of the waterways. Areas where people complain about cars running lights and/or stop signs, are usually patrolled more often, LEO's on the lookout for offenders. They step up enforcement in trouble spots, they don't make the entire area a 25 mph school zone. Common sense.

I have read many posts on this issue. I also have experienced some tight situations in the pole.

From what I have gathered and by those living there have posted (who I think have the best perspective on the matter is)

1. Speed has nothing to do with the wakes. We all know if you are on plain whether at 30 mph or 45 mph your wake is smaller then when you are going 20(ish) and transitioning between plowing and plaining speed.

2. the 150 foot safe passage rule needs to be enforced in the tighter areas. The no wake zone in this instance is placing a restricting year round on the area when it is rarely an issue even on the weekends.

3. Even property owners who are directly effected are mixed in whether this is needed or not. But from what I have read the only issue is large wakes. Not speed, not fear, not noise ONLY wakes... Since this is the case it is difficult to say a No wake will solve everyone's issue. As proven time and time again if a boat goes through the pole on plain there is little to no issue with a wake. However if boats are forced to come on and off plain those land owners immediately bordering where boats will always be slowing down and speeding up could be even more effected then the current situation.

I think this is a very tough issue and I personally have mixed feelings on this for I have seen it from both sides. But lets keep into context exactly what that problem is Large wakes nothing more.

We spend at least half of our boating time running just in gear and doing as you noted- sightseeing, talking, etc.

There are other times when we just want to get to our destination and would like to be on plane (and creating little wake).

That is going to be a long NWZ and will likely cause others to be added or extended.

where will the boats go next
 

As mentioned above this very long NWZ will force more and more boats around the NWZ and most likely will add more traffic between Little bear and Long Island which is, I believe a much tighter spot than the Barber's pole area.

You know what - you have every right to go no wake speed whenever and where ever you want. Nobody is arguing that point. However, not everyone feels the same as you do. Personally, I like about 2/3 throttle and am a safe captain at any speed.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. There are many tight areas where shore erosion and damage to boats is not the only issue. And as I said earlier, boats screaming by the 2 little islands (often faster than 45 MPH by their own admission on this forum:eek:) are a big problem.
Yes, other NWZ's may be added or extended. People who might use these tight areas but do not reside there will complain loudly but it's likely that most residents who are most affected will give it a thumbs up. I suspect this definitely is the case with those 2 little islands(Little Birch and Squirrell) where I noticed boats, rafts, docks, and swimmers all sharing this tight channel.

I agree, if the problem in fact is large wakes there is only so much that can be done short of using a NWZ to combat it, but to what end? If the end result is that traffic gets redirected to another area then the problem exists there too. So two thoughts come to mind, not that I like either one of them, but maybe worth while to consider.

First idea, as previously mentioned, make this area a part time NWZ during prime summer months.

Second idea, like some roads and bridges that have weight restrictions, maybe consider the same for that area, where large boats are prohibited from passing through. BTW I'm not trying to stir the pot here by the mention of "large" boats. How to quantify large, well that is sure to create quite a discussion.

Of the two I like the first, both I think would be a nightmare to enforce. Dunno - no good answer as of yet, but throwing ideas around is how problems get solved in unique ways. I'd like to think some sort of reasonable solution could be devised, a full time NWZ in that area just seems really overkill and it's creation may have adverse negative affects if instituted as is.

Sunset, we have all appreciated your responses, but I have read back on every post, and other then you (not even the land owners who started this thread) have ever mentioned that boats going over 45 is an issue. Using language like screaming, faster then 45 mph is only stirring the pot.

Can we just agree that the safe passage rule needs to be enforced and that wakes are an issue?

Boats running on the pad through this area leave little to no wake. I am concerned that this proposed no wake area will actually cause more damage. As we all know many boaters do not know what no wake speed is. I can see this area quite possibly becoming a "plow fest" as those who do not understand what no wake really is plow through the area. As the old saying goes "be careful what you wish for."

You know that's a great point due to the proposed length of this area to pass through. People are going to get impatient going through such a long stretch at a snail's pace and surely will tend to be water plowers.

No mushing !
 

We're it to be stop (or NWS) and "full throttle" I suspect there wouldn't be as much complaining. From what I've heard here, the issue is wake size and I'll guess it's mostly due to the same thing I see off my dock. The restriction in channel width plus people's intransigence to line up sticks a bunch'o'boats all in the same place at the same time. When that happens you get the mushers out in force. NWS is too slow for them and on plane is too fast, so they settle at the inbetween speed where no boat should operate. 2 speeds would be better than the infinitely variable speeds some people choose to use.

I live here on the Barbers Pole and I can tell you our biggest issue is the large cruiser wakes and the boats plowing along. In almost 10 years here I can count on on hand how many times I've seen a boat go by here above the current law. The issue as has been discussed occurs during these times:

Saturday 12noon-4:00pm
Sunday 12noon-2:00pm
give or take an hour here and there.

So we need a law for this? 6+/- hours a weekend for 8-10 weeks? I'm heavily leaning towards no. Again I have said that I am torn as my boat does take a beating during these hours. With that said I still think a law that punishes all the boaters headed south from the Northeast corner of the lake should not be punished for that.

The biggest problem stems from the random joker in the 40 footer plowing along. I'll try and catch a video and post it one of these days.

I'm pretty sure SOTD knows very well what wake sizes are produced at what speeds. It's pretty clear from property owners on the lake what the issues may or may not be as well. I honestly don't know anyone who's best boating moments are at no wake speed, except fishermen trolling. I spend a great deal of time on the hook, but that's different.

Everyone should thank the people that are having rational discourse on this subject. And for the record, like many, I haven't formed a full opinion on this particular NWZ myself.

I travel through Barber Pole every so often and hardly ever come upon someone who observes the 150' rule on weekends. People just bomb through on plane at under 150'. It really annoys me because I slow down. Now I understand that it's tough to get a big tub back to speed but if that's what you got that's how it goes. I may be the only person who doesn't mind slowing down because I enjoy the sensation of acceleration. It's particularly enjoyable in my boat because it's a little under propped so it has great pickup.
End of ramble...
Another poster had the thought of floating some ideas. What about a decoy boat? I believe the MP has some old boats. If they stick one in a high violation area like that it could deter the weekend warriors. Might work, and wouldn't cost much. Also they could post some very clear signs leading into the area that it is being heavily monitored.
I wouldn't be unhappy if SBONH got involved with 150 foot rule reminder signs at ramps, bridges, gas docks and the like. Maybe, maybe, maybe. I just wish I had more weekdays to use my boat, I don't see too many problems then.
Pete

I was referring to this forum, not this thread. And as I said, wakes and erosion are not the only issue. Safety AND noise are part of the problem. Some have argued that noise is not a good reason for a NWZ but some of the loud boats that scream by the 2 little islands just 150' away...well...as was said earlier, if you can't get Al Capone on murder charges, then at least get him on tax fraud.

Well in the future I think when we are trying to hash out the issues of the NWZ in the barbers pole we should focus on the actual thread, not the entire forum and remarks from others that have no bearing on the discussion at hand and made in the context of another discussion all together.

After reading the last thread and this one, especially from first hand accounts of those who live in the pole, their contention with the issue of perhaps needing a NWZ is "ONLY" wakes. At no point did Safety AND Noise come up other then by you. So again lets take a step back and address the specific question of why this has been requested by land owners that petitioned for the NWZ in the first place. From all the accounts I have read it had nothing to do with "screaming boats at or further away then the safe passage law dictates". The use again of the verbage "screaming and noise" is an exaggeration to create an illusion of something that has not been discussed nor has been said by anyone who actually lives there. So lets keep the subtle context of these at bay. Also at no point have I read:

"We need this NWZ because my docks and boat are taking a beating from a boat on plain abiding by the laws that are in place to keep boats a safe distance away which has been derived by the dept. of safety and marine patrol."

Hazelnut has specifically mentioned Large Cruisers who are not paying attention to their sizable wakes at very limited times only in the summer. Now, I am not sure if Al Capone is on those boats but maybe we can ask to keep an eye out for him as well in the future when enforcing current laws.

I personally think we need more data and perhaps a study as to where the NWZ would start and stop, the distance from that point to the adjacent shore and then figure out the speed in which the wake will dimish in that zone. Again we especially don't want to make the problem worse for a small set of land owners at the immediate spot where boats are forced to come on and off plain just so other land owners can experience no wakes during these limited time frames in the summer.

Extremes indeed.

Thanks once again OCD, for keeping this thread on topic :)

I would politely suggest, on behalf of both this forum, and Don himself, if people that are not specifically interested in following this issue, refrain from posting here. It's a very important issue on the lake, and one that could have far-reaching impacts.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Of course remarks from other parts of the forum are relevant and have bearing on the issue at hand, as are remarks from other forums where people speak of breaking the law.Safety and noise are an issue for the people on these 2 small islands as well as in other areas of the Barber's Pole. It was one of the reasons behind the movement for a NWZ. I have visited folks in this area...it is a major reason!

No bearing on the discussion? Of course other threads are relevant. You yourself bragged last year of "almost doubling the limit". No wonder the poor folks along the Barber Pole petitioned for a NWZ. Not relevant is different from wishing it were not relevant.

Thank you VTsteve... Good Call

I think keeping the discussion on topic with the specific conversation from the posters at hand is very important. This is a very important issue that needs relevant facts and data to prove its relevance and how it can be instituted or not in the most effective manner.

Now I am a straight shooter and personally have not traveled to the islands and knocked door to door asking opinions, however I have counted three residents from the area in these discussions and all have explained in detail what they see the issue to be. So from my hundreds of times if not thousands of times passing through the pole, their posts, and the hours spent personally sitting on the dock watching the boats go by there, I can say with great certainty that this location is in no way unsafer or noisier then anywhere else on the lake that is a channel or bay of its size. There will always be some risk inherent in a waterway used by the public. There are laws, restrictions, and edcucation that has helped reduce these inherent risks.

Without the supporting data and study that I suggested earlier I can not say one way or the other whether this is needed.

IF we start adding NWZ's to simply fix what some people "feel" is an issue without hard facts then it is just a matter of time before more and more and more un-needed NWZ's are petitioned for.

I for one would much rather see the state fund the MP in a manner as such so that they have the resources to enforce the many laws they are charged with already. We can't keep piling more on whether it be more ordenances or NWZ's unless they are needed and asked for by the Marine Patrol.

When was the last time the marine patrol directly asked for a restriction to be placed? I can not think of one in recent memory. But if they were to stand up and say, this is an area that we would like to see a NWZ due to reasons A,B,C from XYZ study then please point me in the way of the petition to sign.

Ok I'm jumping off my soap box..

Time for a Mai Tai on the dock.. (boy I wish I was there right now, 24 hours and counting! but only there for 12 hours then back home YUCK! :( )


In Response to TB's attempt on twisting the facts yet again:

HELLO MCFLY!!! I doubled it testing the boat in Long Island Sound!!!! Seriously. Please refer me to the RSA in the NH Statues the prohibits me from using my boat at 90 mph in NEW YORK on THE OCEAN?????

Thanks SOTD, this info could be very usefull for anyone who is considering an appeal. :)

I live right outside the barbers pole, I will agree that big boat wakes suck. The biggest problem is the people who are going headway speed in the middle of the channel. They make it so there is no way around but to slow down and slowly pass them, causing a big wake.
I for one always go through the hole in the wall, I usually just idle down there, waiting for the boat to warm up.
One thing I can tell you because I live there is there is definitely no noise problem. I know allot of people on cow island and I have never heard any body ever complain about noise.

SOTD,

In this case I am sorry but you are wrong. I have a house here I have had a house here for almost 10 years. I have ten years of experience with this exact location that is in question. My neighbors and I all agree what the problem is. The people you speak of on Squirrel Island do not spend any time there. I don't know who you spoke to but that house is rented almost 99.9% of the summer.

What we are talking about is basically my back yard. So any comment you have made so far is hearsay and conjecture. If I did not own a house at this location we could debate this subject but considering that you do not own a house here and your viewpoint is based on a few observations and second hand commentary I am going to respectfully disagree with your assumptions.

Last weekend I began videotaping the location and I will post a series of videos for you all to weigh in on. I'm hoping to catch a big Cruiser going by at some point, it is inevitable.

The big problem is and has been for the past almost 10 years, big wakes. Boats do not "scream by (the area)" Quite the contrary many boats do a good job and have done a good job for several years, maintaining safe speeds through the area. The loudest boat I heard this week, it made me look out the window it was so loud, was an antique CrissCraft. I smiled and laughed and wondered what some on the forum would have said to me if they were standing inside my house with me when it went by. :laugh:

Not in my back yard
 

Too many people want to transform the area of the lake they live on into something that it will never be.

Boats go by your house and leave a wake? Get over it! It's a boat, that's what they do.
Boat go by your house and you can hear it? Get over it!
The NH philosophy "Live free or die" is being ignored and eroded with all these little rules. They take away from the pleasure and enjoyment that many people have had for years.
My house looks out to open water for several miles. Guess what? When a large boat or a small boat plowing along goes by two miles away the wake splashes over a two foot wall at the water and onto my front lawn. Should I go ask the state to make the area 3 miles in front of my house into a "No Wake" zone?
Should I ask the state to close down the two marinas around the corner that have over 300 boats, many of which leave large wakes as they pass by?
How many people that bought their houses knew what the situation was in front of their house when they bought it and are now trying to change it?
Buy some mooring whips, get a mooring, that is what many people on my street have done.
The last thing we need is more government regulation. Stop trying to change the lake. There was a reason why you bought on Winnipesaukee or moved here, isn't that reason still good enough?