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...eeek.....it's back.....eek....oh-no!
....it's back....it's out there.....under a solid foot of hard clear ice.....cruising around & turning this way & that, quick....da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da (theme from the movie JAWS here) da-da-da-da!...quick, run for your life and get back up on the shore! ...the speed limits is back....take a peek at todays www.citizen.com
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From the Citizen Article:
Helve said the failure of some legislators to support last year's speed limit proposal played a part in them not being re-elected. "This is certainly an important state issue. We have to protect our children and their family, but it isn't just about safety … it's quality of life," said Helve. I'd like some specific examples. :confused: |
Good ole Sandy! She summed it up in a nutshell.... "It isn't just about safety, its about quality of life."
There it is.... THE REAL AGENDA! If it were truly about safety, there would be all sorts of data to bolster thier position. In FACT, there is ABSOLUTELY NO DATA to bolster thier position. They don't like hi-perfromance boats, plain and simple. I am glad to see they finally admitted it! Woodsy |
… it's quality of life
Yes, I think it is about quality of life, but safety is also a concern, and one that gets more attention. I can't count the number of times I've been awakened late at night by a GFBL, or couldn't be heard in a normal conversation over the roar of one of these in the distance. :( The owners of these boats have brought this upon themselves - and the issue would probably die down if they just put a decent muffler system on the engine(s)!
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Island Ho...
I am personally all for strict noise legislation enforcement... Why they don't allow Quick & Quiet Exhaust systems (as long as you PASS the noise test BOTH ways) is beyond me! It would certainly save quite a bit of animosity between the two sides... As far as the "Safety" aspect I just don't agree with the WinnFabs position. There isn't ANY NH accident data at all that supports a safety argument for a speed limit! Woodsy |
Nothing new......
Winnfabs starting there "sky is falling" campaign. They are really full of themselves if they believe that legislators lost elections due to one topic. Woodsy statement is correct, there is NO factual data to support this. The group is getting their jump on their scare tactics.
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Safety and noise are two totally different issues not to be confused. How can you mention safety as a concern but go on to dwell on noise? When was the last time a boating accident was caused by a loud exhaust distracting someone? There are already noise laws and Woodsy brought up the very point that I have thought of time and time again. Switchable exhaust not being allowed is ridiculous, as long as the louder setting still meets the current standard at which noise is measured. Ever heard the saying "loud pipes save lives" in reference to bikes? If you can hear them coming you should have plenty of time to react to a situation. :laugh: |
Whats wrong with us?
Good Lord,
There is absolutely NO reason to have a speed limit, especially on the broads. Rarely has a boat been within 200 yards of myself when crossing. How 'bout instituting an on water boat test and getting rid of all these "boaters"? I know there are a 1/2 dozen people at our marina who won't even take their boat out because they don't know how it works or will handle in different conditions. Weight is the issue, not speed, small boats are scared because a 4 foot rollers coming off behind the titanic. Haven't the people who keep bringing this issue up every year for the past 20 years, died already? There are way too many important issues going on in this country. If the people who put their annoying talents of enacting rules and laws upon us, would do something useful during their lives they could actually serve a purpose. Maybe that politician you have been nudging up his/her behind could concentrate on some important issues. Instead of the possible boat fatality that MIGHT happen next year or the following year. How many people died driving a car/motorcyle to the lake last year? Maybe rte 93 north should have a special speed limit of 10mph and that would stop accidents. I have been on that lake for 34 years. Sure, there are quite a bit more snotty jerks moving in this area than ever before. But, dammit, relax and enjoy. I am much more worried about some wealthy elderly man driving a 38 cruiser yacht through the channel than I am a 30 year old driving a Cobalt in the broads at 55mph. Before you ask, I have a 1997 252 Cobalt that the speedo has hit 53mph once. Republicans or Democrats. Can't we all get along? Must there be segregation still in this country? See you on the lake concentrating on enjoying my family time. |
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If people in smaller, slower boats are afraid to go out on lakes because of the high speeds that some of the boats are traveling – isn’t that a reason? Quote:
My boat is a 50-pound sea kayak, which is definitely a small boat. And for me, speed is the issue, not weight. I can handle 4-foot rollers just fine. This is an important issue. Just because you don’t personally see it as one, that doesn’t mean that others don’t. Boats traveling at high speeds on busy lakes do have a major negative impact on us paddlers. |
loud exhausts
"loud pipes" don't save lives on the lake. They are illegal because you wouldn't be able to hear a Sound Producing Device if one was being blown to get your attention...
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Fear is not a good reason
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Fear is an emotion that can be controled by understanding the risks and addressing them. If someone can't control their fear, then they should stay away from the situation that triggers the emotion. I'm sure there are sea kayakers who could enjoy a hot busy day in July, without fear taking over. Lawmakers should be careful that the fear of some does not become a common justification to restrict those who are not scared. Unfortunately, laws against causing fear are becoming more acceptable, as we recently saw in Boston. An innocent light box advertisement on a bridge scared up $1 million dollars worth of panic money and got someone arrested. I think that I'm in the same category as many others (including fellow sailboat and kayak pilots). I'm fighting against the slippery slope of fear laws from creaping into the "live free or die" state. Let's use the power of law to make the lake safe and clean before we start worrying about a political action committee's definition of their "quality of life". |
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NH RSA TITLE XXII 270:1:II states that following: “In the interest of maintaining the residential, recreational and scenic values which New Hampshire public waters provide to residents of the state and to the promotion of our tourist industry, and in light of the fact that competing uses for the enjoyment of these waters, if not regulated for the benefit of all users, may diminish the value to be derived from them, it is hereby declared that the public waters of New Hampshire shall be maintained and regulated in such way as to provide for the safe and mutual enjoyment of a variety of uses, both from the shore and from water-borne conveyances. Such provisions shall take into consideration the following: the variety of special uses appropriate to our lakes, public safety, protection of environment and water quality, and the continued nurture of New Hampshire's threatened and endangered species.” In my opinion, our public waters are not being regulated very well, if a small percentage of the boating population is causing a larger percentage of the public to avoid these same waters – for whatever reasons. I happen to have a great deal of contact with other paddlers, so I know for a fact that many of these paddlers avoid paddling on many of New Hampshire’s larger lakes (and especially on Winnipesauke) because they are afraid of the high speed powerboats. And I don’t believe that this fear is unfounded – it is based on the actual risks of sharing the water with boats that are traveling at 15 to 30 times our speed – and the fact that the operators of these boats may not see us. This same fear (concern, apprehension, uncomfortableness, or whatever you want to call it), which is keeping many paddlers off of these public waters, is (in my opinion) the very reason that we don’t have kayakers and canoeists being killed by powerboaters. The thing is, if paddlers weren’t so afraid to use these waters, there would be more of us out on them, and there would be more accidents – which would then certainly lead to a speed limit law. |
Evenstar, please tell me you got out on Winnipesaukee in your kayak over the Summer. I was on the lake at least 25 full days, and due to last year's early season speed limit debates, I was especially vigilant about looking for paddlers and high speed boats. I saw huge numbers of paddlers who appeared to be having fun and enjoying the lake, and none that acted frightened. I also saw a very small number of fast moving boats, none of which did anything unsafe while I was watching. The worst offenders regarding safety were folks in "family" boats looking kinda clueless, and they were few and far between, compared to previous years. I think you and your friends are missing out on a good time due to irrational fears.
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Yes I got out on Winni a number of times last summer (during the week), but I always had to talk my kayaking friend into going there – as she’s just not comfortable on that lake, due to the speed of some of the powerboats (her words, not mine).
First of all, were you out in a kayak? Because it’s one thing to observe kayaks from the perspective of a powerboat, and it’s very different to be out there in one. I have personally enjoyed most of my time out on the lake, so I would also appear to be having fun to most of the passing powerboats. But there are definitely times when I felt less than safe. Some powerboats and jet skis came way too close to us last summer and many were traveling at fairly high speeds. Yes there is the 150’ law, but if someone is going to break it (which happens all the time), I’d much rather they were going 45 or less, as this can be a rather terrifying experience at higher speeds (and I’m talking from personal experience here). I would almost guarantee that several boaters didn’t even notice us until they were practically upon us (either that or they were just trying to scare us – which they very successfully did). When I kayak on a lake, I do talk with other paddlers and many of their stories and safety concerns mirror mine. The only kayakers who don’t seem to have as many problems with powerboats are the ones that never venture from the coves or hug the shores – but most of those paddles still have strong safety concerns (which is why they stay off the main lake). When I kayak, I don’t stay in the coves or hug the shores – I’m out there on the main lake – and I’m out there for hours – covering many miles of lake. And I have NEVER spent a day kayaking on Winni when I did not experience fear that an approaching high speed powerboat was not aware that I was there (based on their actions). You can say my fears are irrational. But I’m a pretty rational person and I consider myself to be rather adventurous and therefore braver than most; so I feel that my fears are very rational – and that they are very valid. |
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It is one thing to state that you are brave; but to state that you are braver than most while using fear as a reason for mandating your lifestyle upon others is absurd. |
We don't let mopeds on interstates
Maybe kayaks don't belong in the broads. Same reasoning. Even if there were hypothetically a 45mph limit, Kayaks can not keep up with traffic. They certainly create a hazard to themselves and other boaters. Same reason mopeds aren't allowed on interstates, can not stay with the flow of traffic, and are putting themselves in harms way and hindering all others.
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What?
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Actually, people who kayak as a sport can use the same argument that people with oversized boats use. They need wide-open stretches of water so they can paddle at high speed (yes, it is fast - but not your kind of fast). Most people don't paddle in the broads, but rather cross from island to island, which requires paddling across fairly large, open areas of water. It's unavoidable. And it's very frightening to see large boats moving toward you at very high speed - and coming from multiple directions. You have no idea whether they can see you or whether they are focusing instead on the more obvious (motor) boats they notice. When you are sitting a few inches deep into the water, with nothing but a small shell around you and a paddle to wave, there is nothing irrational about that, Dave R. And I was not at the lake for 25 days - I was there for the whole summer. Sure, there were fewer boats this summer, I agree. The number of paddlers is down significantly from what it was many years ago. And that is not because there are fewer paddlers out there - instead the sport is growing fast. The few I saw came by mostly in the early morning or mid-week when the boat traffic was low. Quote:
No, I'm not a crazed kayaker. I kayak around the island, that's all, maybe now and then to an adjacent island. I used to kayak a lot, but now I'm too afraid to go much farther than that. And yes, I do like to go "fast" in my boat (it's top speed is probably 45 or 50). |
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Why can't you guys discuss this issue without making personal attacks on people who don't share your views? First of all I did not "state" that I was braver than most - what I wrote was that "I consider myself to be rather adventurous and therefore braver than most" . . . which is my personal opinion (and one that you are in no position to judge, since you don't even know me). Secondly I am not "mandating my lifestyle" on anyone. I was accused of having irrational fears, and I merely tried to explain my position in that area. In an earlier post I was just trying to point out that there are indeed reasons for having a speed limit - many here may not agree with those reasons, but they are still reasons. |
I'd vote for the speed limit if I thought it would make a difference. Unfortunately, it won't. So why bother? The lake doesn't work for many small kayaks and canoes these days due to heavy traffic. I have a 23 foot deep V boat (max speed 38 mph in perfect conditions) and I wouldn't think of boating in anything smaller on Winnipesaukee. I have been boating for 2-seasons on the lake, for a total of about 110 hours, and I can't recall an incident where speed was an issue. Perhaps it is because I have operated in a watercraft that is appropriate for the conditions?
The simple fact of the matter is that most parts of Winnipesaukee are unfit for small watercraft and this isn't going to change. Certainly, anyone who ventures into the broads on a small watercraft is taking a fair amount of personal risk. The good news is that there are many smaller lakes and ponds in the area that are perfect for small watercraft. Finally, the only way I see to make the lake safer is to crack down on existing illegal activity and to get the booze out. How about a law that makes open containers illegal? Im not saying I'd be for it, but it would make a hell of a lot more difference than a speed limit. |
The smaller the vessel , the more danger is involved , regardless of speed.
I personally wouldn't kayak across the broads because it's a kayak , not because of speed. I would be more concerned with lake and/or weather conditions. A fast moving thunderstorm is a lot faster than any kayak. It doesn't matter how strong a swimmer you are or what type of flotation devices you have , battling 30 or 40 mph winds and 4 or 5 foot waves for a half hour could be just as fatal as a 40' boat doing 80 mph. Maybe we could ban thunderstorms or limit wind speed and wave height too:rolleye2: I'd like to say "If you can't keep up with the big dogs , get out of the game" , but I won't because you certainly have a right to be out there too. Just like you see people doing STUPID things on the highway(and they have speed limits) , you'll also see it on the water. So get over it and get out there and enjoy it anyway;) |
I think that Evenstar hit the nail on the head in her second post when she said "and the fact that the operators of those boats may not see us".
But, IMHO, the danger is caused more by Captain Bonehead not paying rnough attention to what's around him, or having had one too many "brewskis", or just plain running too fast for the visibility than by running above 45 mph. Sadly, I've seen Captain B at the helm of everything from PWCs to bowriders to cruisers. There is nothing magical about 45 mph that makes it an intrinsically safe speed; many times and places it's much too fast for the visibility or the crowded conditions, while other times and places it's quite possible to go faster in perfect safety (so long as the operator is keeping a sharp watch). Certainly 45 mph is not slow enough to make a collision safe. God forbid that it should ever happen, but if a canoe or a kayak gets run over because Captain Bonehead isn't watching where he's going, the results aren't going to be much different whether it happens at 25 mph, 45 mph, or 75 mph. I'm not without sympathy for the folks that are intimidated by having a boat bearing down on them at high speed. Been there, done that in my younger days racing small sailboats, and I "gay-ron-tee" that having a boat bearing down on you at 45 is still going to produce a very high "pucker factor". Heck, even in my 29 ft. cruiser I've had the "pucker factor" kick in wondering "does that idiot see me", especially at night. But, short of making the entire lake headway speed at all times, I don't think that we can make it completely safe to share the lake with Captain B when he's not paying attention. Certainly, a 45 mph speed limit will not do the trick, and 25 mph is way, way too fast on a dark, cloudy night. Besides, as became apparent during the last go around, the root of this whole speed limit effort is really about driving performance boats off the lake! Silver Duck |
From a guy that has 36 years of sailing exp. including offshore racing and being involved in the US Olypic Sailing Team, and about 16 years of running high performance to include offshore power boat races (I did run in the races on the Lake). Ok great now you know I am not a 2 bit newbe hack...:)
The "GFBL" did bring this on themselves. We are the monority no doubt and in the past definatly made out presence felt. However, now we are REQUIRED to be under a certain DB limit. I know of no accident that this would have stopped. Does anyone? I may be wrong? I have found that when people run their boats fast they are very focussed on what they do. There is really nothing that can distract you while driving fast. I do not think that people going 45 is all of the sudden going to make being out in the middle of the lake in a Kayak safe. I have heard two arguments from the pro side that seem to contradict one another. They say that the lake is over crowded and unsafe becaues of this. Then they say that people are afraid to go out. Well would that not make the lake more crowded and exaserbate the problem? :confused: Over the last few years we have seen accident in NH be I believe it is cut in half. This is double what the national average is. The required licenses are working. They could be tougher to get and I am all for that. I got mine on line and I thought that was a bit of a joke. Lucky for everyone else I have as much experience as I do. I can see how people that do not would not benifiet from it. Jon |
Just because a vessel is smaller does not make it more dangerous. There’s a whole bunch more than size to consider - such as the ability and knowledge of the operator, as well as the design of the vessel.
Ok, I explained all this last year in great detail (to the same people posting here now), but apparently you still don’t understand. A sea kayak is not the same type of boat as a recreational kayak. My kayak is made for large bodies of water, not small lakes and ponds. I cover 20 miles of lake in an afternoon and 4-foot waves and wind conditions aren’t usually that much of a problem – and I’ve never been out in what I would call dangerous weather conditions (I do check the weather reports – and I do keep a watch on the sky). On winni there are only a few spots where you can be more than a mile for some shoreline – which means that I can almost always reach a shore within 15 minutes. I’m also an experienced kayaker – not some beginner and I never go out without safety equipment - plus I’m in great shape – and I don’t paddle alone on the larger lakes. A 45 mph speed is not a magical number, but it is (in my opinion) a reasonable speed (just like 65 is a reasonable speed for most sections of the Interstate). What a speed limit does do is that it gives something concrete for people to follow (and for officers to use). And if you don’t believe that a speed limit makes a difference, go visit Squam – and look at the number of kayaks and canoes out on that lake. |
Just because a vessel is smaller does not make it more dangerous.
OK , I guess that just about sez it all:emb: It sounds like "Golden Pond" is a real nice place to kayak;) |
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While we are on the subject, you don't find it dangerous to be out in the middle of the broads in 4-5' waves on "busy" days? With 4-5' waves you will be out of sight as much as you will be in sight unless you are as tall as big bird, and as bright yellow. Take into account other factors such as glare/visibility, wind, etc and you are endangering youself and people in other vessels, including power boats. |
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First of all I don’t lie – and I’m not exaggerating anything that I’ve written here. I’m being 100% truthful, and I haven’t attacked anyone – yet you guys can’t seem to make a point without getting all personal about it. Have I have written anything that personally offended you? If so . . . I really didn't mean to and I'm sorry. If not, then what is it that you don't like about me? Most people who actually know me seem to think that I'm a pretty nice person. And please don't misquote me - I wrote "Some powerboats and jet skis came way too close to us last summer and many were traveling at fairly high speeds. I never wrote "always". Now to address your other comments: The truth is that I’ve only been on winni during the week, and it’s always been really far from a “ghost town” – but I’m talking about nice days in mid summer (just in case that wasn’t clear). Just getting around Governors Island can be a real challenge on any day of the week, due to the number of boats coming and going. Quote:
When did I write that I go out in the middle of the broads in 4 to 5 foot waves on busy days? All I wrote was that I have been out in 4 foot waves and that they weren’t usually that much of a problem. My point was that my kayak is made for those conditions and I happen to know through experience that I can handle most weather conditions . . . if I have to. I don’t venture out in 4-foot waves – but conditions can change in a hurry so I might have to (and have had to) deal with rough weather from time to time, just like anyone who spends time out on large lakes. When I am in big waves 50% of the time I’m extremely visible – because I’m up there on top of the wave – and my kayak is bright red on top, with a white hull – my PFD is bright red – my drytop is bright orange, and my paddles are bright orange – my friend has the bright yellow (Big Bird) kayak. So any operator in a powerboat that is traveling at a reasonable speed in those conditions would have to be blind or just not paying attention to not see us (especially since powerboats aren't traveling at high speeds in 4-foot waves). So exactly how am I endangering people in other vessels? |
Golden Pond
Hmmmmmm I wonder why real-estate on Squam is valued almost 2x what Winni is. Could it be that peace and safety have a value added component to it?
The argument against the speed limit is based on ignorance of boating in other parts of the country. Any one boated in the ICW and dealt with speed limits, and long, long, long no wakes to protect the manatees? |
Evenstar, I'm glad you got out on the lake. Sorry it lived up to your expectations. Were any of the boats or PWCs that frightened you actually going more than 45? That's at or near wide open throttle for most power boats. Most folks don't typically operate at or near WOT much.
You wrote of difficulty getting around Governer's Island. That's generally the most crowded part of the entire lake. I only go near there when necessary. One would be hard pressed to maintain more than 45 MPH around that island due to the crowding. You sure it's not the crowds that make paddling on Winnipesaukee no fun? I imagine Squam is substantially less crowded and therefore more fun for paddling. Considering most power boats top out under 50, I seriously doubt the speed limit on that lake is the reason for its reduced popularity, I imagine its proximity to Winnipesuakee has much more to do with it. |
Dave:
Some of the boats that we were very concerned about were traveling well in excess of 45mph, including one that came within 50 or 60 feet of us, as we were heading out of Center Harbor – at least we know that the operator saw us, because he was staring at us and grinning. When we crossed large stretches of open water (between islands), we often saw boats that were going faster than 45, some never got very close, some got closer than we liked, and some slowed way down as soon as they got anywhere near us. A couple of the jet skis in Center Harbor were going pretty fast, but maybe not over 45 – mostly they were annoying, because they kept circling us – trying to get a better look as they showed off (we weren’t impressed). That was my partially own fault – it was a very hot day and I wearing a bikini. It is impossible to tell exactly how fast someone is going on the water, but I spend so much time on Squam, where the 40mph speed limit gives me a pretty good idea of what that speed looks like, that it’s pretty easy to tell if a boat is going way faster than that. My point about Governor’s Island was in response to the comment that the lake was a “ghost town” during the week. We didn’t encounter any boats traveling at high speed until we were well away from that traffic. Squam has a lot of powerboats on it on weekends – it can be a real pain at times just to get to the river connecting Squam with Little Squam. In my opinion the 40 mph speed limit is what makes Squam feel safe to paddle, not the number of powerboats. Crossing large stretches of open water is not nearly as intimidating when powerboats are approaching you at slower speeds. I live near a 10 mile lake and that can be a scary place to paddle on some weekends, not because there are so many boats (because the lake is not crowded), but because so many of the operators seem to think that their boats only have two speeds – stop and go (at full throttle). |
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I was in my ski boat in MA in a small lake. We like to go there because we are usually the only boat on the lake and it makes for perfect water skiing. There is a speed limit on all inland lakes in MA (45mph). I never went over 40mph all day as I knew that there were police watching us all day. When I went to pull my boat out of the water the police came and paid me a visit. They said that I was traveling in excess of 60 mph. They said that they knew that based on the rooster tail that my boat was putting up. The problem with their observation is that when this boat goes slower it puts out a larger rooster tail. Something that they did not understand. They after a nice discussion with them asked me to prove it. So I made a pass at 45 and another at 80. They thanked me after the demonstration and said that they were truly deceived. Now these are trained officers that do this for a living not just the summer. As has been said most boats are not capable of the speeds that you think that they are. Most on GPS will top out at about 40mph. Keck my Formula speed boat tops out at 55:( :( . I am sure that it looks like it is going a lot faster but it is not. My other issue is that my windsurfers travel well in excess of 45 mph. I have been clocked on one at 64mph. So I risk getting a ticket on one. :( Kind of takes the fun out of it if ya know what I mean.... I wish that I could agree with your assertion that you will be safer with people traveling a little slower but I can't. The accident rate has dropped faster in NH that any other state and that includes states that have implemented speed limits. The facts just do not seem to point towards your point except for the noise issue. As for that the manufacturers have made a HUGE effort to quite their boats. I think that you would be surprised at how well you can see in front of you at speed. Hang in there everyone it is going to be a LONG winter :eek: ;) :D |
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The people on the PWC had the right to circle around at speed as long as they are not breaching the rule as well. It may be annoying but unless they were within 150' of each other or you they were not breaking the law. No speed issue here. I do have to beg to differ about estimating speed on water, it is no as easy as one would think. How do you truly know that those boats on Squam are doing 40mph just because there is a speed limit? The difference between 45mph and 55mph on water of an object that is a good distance away cannot be pinpointed by just looking at it...Unless that kayak of yours has a radar gun built in I would not make guesses, because without one they are just guesses. I will say however that bikinis look better at distances closer than 150' and at slower speeds, so maybe some pictures would help the arguement. :D Maybe a lake-wide dress code? |
Codeman:
Sometimes bikinis look better at distances of further than 150 feet, which quite possibly applies here. |
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I have spent enough time out on the water to know when a boat is going way faster than 40 or 45 mph. |
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For the record I'm a 6-foot tall strawberry-blonde - who played on my college's woman's volleyball team last year - and I'm in great shape - and I do fill out my bikini top. |
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Some folks just want a speed limit, regardless of the need. There's no statistics to back up a speed limit, it's all about feelings for these folks and there's nothing wrong with that. I would not expect to change any minds.
I'd be for a speed limit if I could see a need. Regarding the fear of boats being irrational, post an accurate statistic showing high speed (45+ MPH) boat collisions with Kayaks on NH lakes and you'll change my mind. It just does not happen. Fear of something that does not occur is rational? Statistically, you're vastly more likely to drown in a kayak from your own mistakes. |
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Enforcement of current laws is the answer. There was countless times last year that I witnessed 150' infringements, honestly dozens per day spent on the water. I sit on my dock and watch them right in front of the house, I don't even have to travel to witness it I would have to guess that no more than 10-15% of the boats on the lake do over 50mph. Based on the dealers on the lake and what they are selling, most lines sold build boats that do 50mph or less. So do you really think that adding a speed limit is really going to make a difference in your safety? Just another useless law targeting a very small percentage of boaters that I do not believe are the majority of the offenders. Only once last summer did I witness a performance boat (2 actually, racing by) that were pushing the realm of reasonable speed and distance. The average offender was the 21'-25' family boat that makes up the bulk of the boats on the lake. |
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