Laconia Daily Sun Letter
 

I picked up the Laconia Daily Sun today and found this letter.

Almost none of us want to see return to chaos on the Big Lake
To the editor,
Once we got past the bad weather of
June, it was a wonderful summer for
boating and other activities on Lake
Winnipesaukee. Surely the safest and
most enjoyable in many years. Nobody
can sincerely argue otherwise.
While one could usually count as
many boats on the lake, if not more,
it felt much less crowded and safer
because civility fi nally reigned. It’s
amazing how big a lake can seem when
fi lled with boats operating at reasonable
speeds. Sailing vessels once again
became a common sight. Families in
smaller craft going for evening ice
creams in their runabouts were back.
Kids were being taken water skiing
again. Campers were canoeing again in
numbers we have not seen for years.
Lake Winnipesaukee was once
again a place that all could share and
enjoy. 45 miles per hour in the daytime
and 25 miles per hour in the nighttime
proved plenty fast enough for all
safe and reasonable boating. AND WE
FINALLY HAD A SUMMER WITHOUT
A HIGH-SPEED TRAGEDY.
No boaters were run over this year,
no boats crashed up onto islands, no
speeding boats lost control and fl ipped
over. But then, isn’t that what most of
us expected?
The Marine Patrol deserves a heartfelt
thank you for their efforts to make
the lake a more enjoyable place for all
once again. They heard the concerns
of the boating masses and responded
professionally and effectively. And
their efforts really paid off.
Our biggest thanks should go to those
who formed WinnFABS and made this
happen. Using their own funds, this
group of local citizens fought on our
behalf for several years to fi nally get
this law in place against an organized
political machine funded by those who
profi ted from crowding our lake with
over-sized over-fast boats, and who
wrongly predicted that our economy
would be destroyed by a law that was
not needed because “nobody goes that
fast anyway” and would just be ignored
(Note the contradiction in this statement
is not mine).
Unfortunately, this most-effective
law is only temporary and will soon
expire, and we face the possibility of
returning to the “get out of my way”
boating environment that brought us
here unless we can convince our Legislature
to make it permanent during
the upcoming session. WinnFABS
must and will again lead our efforts
to make this happen. After writing
this letter, I will make a donation to
them to do my small part. But this
time around promises to be the most
expensive, and it is critical that they
get as much support as possible. Aside
from visiting www.gencourt.state.
nh.us/house/members/wml.aspx to
fi nd your legislators’ e-mail addresses
and writing to them to let them know
of your support for a permanent 45
MPH daytime and 25 MPH nighttime
speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee,
I urge all to go to www.winnfabs.
com and make a small contribution
to WinnFABS’ upcoming campaign.
Almost none of us want to see a return
to the chaos that things had been.
Lake Winnipesaukee is our lake. It is
the gem of NH and the engine of our
economy. Let’s keep it the way it was
this summer.
XXXXXXXXX
-end-
(I redacted the name and town of origin of the writer, with that exception I have copied and pasted in its entirety)

Have we had a high speed tragedy every year??

Why let FACTS get in the way of a good letter to the editor? :rolleye1:

Same Old
 

The biggest problem I have with people that deal like that are statements like this.

When was the last time Winnipesaukee had a HIGH-SPEED TRAGEDY?
I also note that while he applauds the MP, they don't support his view of the lake.


Regardless of anyone's personal view on the SL, or the lake in general, why do people have to lie? Is this what the WINFABs group is all about? I think the biggest thing I have against people and groups like that, is they lack character. For me, that's the worst thing I can say about someone, and it amounts to ZERO respect.

I listen to viewpoints, try not to interpret things to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion, and can admit being wrong if I just am wrong. But I don't suffer lies well. If your arguments and positions can't stand on their own merits, possibly you should change them.

If the facts are presented in that paper, he'd look like the fool he is.

Are you kidding me?
 

This is truly the Theatre Of The Absurd

Putting aside the numerous bold face lies in this article, I can only hope this was an editorial and not being passed off as actual news because it has no basis in fact.

Speed limits are not the reason the lake is quieter this year.

It has been stated correctly many times in this forum and in the real news that the traffic is down due to the weather and the economy.

1. Weather
There were only a handful of weekends all summer that were rain/wind/thunderstorm free. While this may not stop lakefront property owners from boating it would surely stop day boaters. Downing’s Landing should have had a great year with the closing of the ramps at Ames Farm. I spoke with the former train conductor at Dawning’s and he confirmed it was a horrible year. There were only a couple of days this summer they were full.

2. Economy
I have heard the argument over and over that gas is 3 bucks on the lake and last year it was almost 5 bucks so it’s really not the economy.

BULL HOCKEY

This year more people are unemployed but that is not the big factor. Most Americans are fearful of becoming unemployed and in this economy the prospect of finding a new job is scary at best. A two dollar decrease in gas price is meaningless compared to people not knowing if or when their next paycheck will come.

Giving credit to a silly law for making the lake quieter and safer is moronic and irresponsible. I realize the people who supported the limits are happy with their victory and do not want to give up something they fought so hard for. But do not fabricate results to justify your position. If the speed limit supporters wanted to extend the law because any data this year is tainted due to the decreased traffic I would completely understand it and even support it. But to claim its working??? The facts do not substantiate this.

I hope somebody here will send a letter to the editor to counter the original article.

How can his first arguement completely contradict itself? The entire opinion piece lacks fact and logic.

I think I just threw up in my mouth.

Time to fight back
 

There used be a group that fought the good fight against these lies (winnilakers), we need to educate the general public with the true facts like they use to. If we allow these lies to continue people will start believing they are true. Were any of you part of winnilakers; I was and participated as much as I had time for. If I recall they actually had a spokes person that would concentrate their efforts.

Maybe a new site is in order to concentrate everyone’s thoughts and efforts, one that locks out the uninvited.

Malibu

Effective Letter to the Editor
 

If YOU "Speed Limit Opponents" have any hope of defeating or even negotiating a compromise, then YOU better learn from this letter. It will kill YOUR chances of anything if not rebutted in this and every newspaper in the State of New Hampshire. If YOU REALLY CARE about this issue, then in the next 2-3 days, YOU should be writing a letter exposing this collection of lies to every publication in NH that accepts letters to the editor submissions. Stop arguing with TB and others, and write the damn letters! i really don't care that much, i just like to see the playing field leveled, and YOU need to do some leveling.

Good luck!:)

I have tried to stay out of the SL debate for some time now. But I can't sit here tonight and not write this. I spent 4 yrs working against the speed limit. Back when it was grass roots, even before winnfabs was formed etc. I was a member of NHRBA, and quite frankly, the biggest reason the speed limit got through was because too many people sat at their keyboards or at home saying " it will never happen". Guess what.... it did, and it will not go away as long as the majority of the opposition doesn't speak. We were out voiced in Concord, but more importantly we were beat in the MEDIA. They (winnfabs) won, and you know why, they got the non boating public to believe that Winnipesaukee had become more dangerous than the wild west. What really is sickening, is that Winnfabs is really only about a handful of people. If you attended the hearings and the lobbying in Concord it was the same 6-8 people there everytime! They did do a good job of raising money, and they are well funded. But come on, we can sit here for days and kick this around winni.com. But what really needs to happen is a big time push in the Media to prove they are not only Wrong, but lying to the non boating public to instill fear and sway them into calling the reps and senators to keep this law on the books. I will leave you with this, GET INVOLVED, that is the only way it will get defeated. I know that I am done, I gave it all, and have other responsibilities now that keep me from going on with this cause. I hope someone steps up and leads the charge for this next phase. -WBB

I have said this before but since it is starting up again: This is not a logical/rational discussion. It is an emotional one. The SL supporters use fear and anger to push their point and gutless politicians respond very well to these tactics. They feel justified bending or making up facts to push their argument. We have gone through all this discussion before. The reasons were NEVER there to support a SL. However the emotion drove it through. The lake has always had a good safety record compared to other bodies of water. Speed has not been a significant contributor to accidents and especially fatal accidents because there haven't been that many and most of them have been swimming or small boat drownings. Other lakes that establish speed limits don't really enforce them. None of it matters as long as the pols respond to the emotions.

What a crock of you know what. The sailboats returned, its safe to go for an ice cream and so on. Looks like the propoganda machine has been fired up once again.

Of course, you are spot on WBB. Well-crafted, and well-distributed lies, are effective. These scare tactics and misstatements sound like politics as usual don't they? Your words ring very true.

I just hope everyone remembers this. Always fight lies with fact. If the facts are not available, wait for them, don't make them up. Something Mr. Weeks mama didn't succeed in teaching him. But that's ok, as WBB stated, people can figure it out on their own once presented with it.

I think it's high time people like that were forced to answer some questions, publicly. As WBB and others say, call them on it, publicly.

Variants of this statement have been made by several posters. I personally find it a little hard to swallow.

Overall this has been a down-year economy wise. Lots of property foreclosures around the lake, people selling off their toys (boats, etc.), and lots of people leaving their lake getaways mothballed.

On top of that you have the theory that the lake has been so dangerous for so many years that the majority of the sailboaters didn't feel safe anymore. Add to that the various speed limit oppositions.

But your post wants us to believe that the minute the speed limit went into effect all of the "violaters" either suddenly disappeared from the lake and/or suddenly complied with the law and became civil rational boaters AND all of these sailboats that had sat unused for years came out of the woodwork to re-take the water?

The people seeing drastic changes this year on the lake are doing so through rose-colored glasses. Things like this speed limit don't just switch on overnight, or over a single season. Had there been a few more sailboats sighted and comments along the lines of "it feels a little better on Sunday's" or "I saw the MP pulling over ANOTHER speeder today", I might be inclined to believe that the speed limit law could have had some effect or time.

Statements that want the public and lawmakers to believe that THIS law was finally the one that brought justice to the water overnight, that THIS law is one people are suddenly adhering to, are a little too much like propaganda for me to believe.

Or of accusing someone of illegal fishing.

Political Climate in NH
 

Is about to change drastically. The heartlless Democrats have put NH in deep dept and wants to sell our state parks to pay for it. The NH voters have had it and will prove it on the next election. That being said the Democrats are pushing 'feel good agendas' such as this bill to assure the public they are not so bad.

As a true NH native, I don't like the renroachment of out of staters as they are now telling us what to do. They say it is progress and I, my father and my grandfather say 'Progress? Hell!'.

Most of the proponents of the SL are not NH natives. A number of them are not even NH voters! What do they want from us? Leave us alone! If they don't like it here, GO HOME!

It's a free country. LIVE LIKE IT! :patriot:

'Live Free or Die' :patriot:

I do not like wasting time on stupid lies that are found in editorial pages but this one struck a nerve and caused me to realize what is going on. To attack the lies with facts did not work combating generalities like safety of fear. There was a lack of leadership tactics surrounding the Speed Limit / Lake issue that led to where we find ourselves today.

Here is my observation and opinion on what went wrong in this long political “battle”. It was not lost because we were outspoken or sat at home. It was lost because we did not effectively beat or address the "safety and fear" issue. There was a much more devious game going on and the issue was lost due to an exploitation of a leadership tactic.

Leadership on social issues (slightly different than business since they are not measured by gains or losses) has interesting characteristics and if you study effective leaders you can see how they win or loose. A true leader (weather good or bad – Reagan or Hitler) never debates the facts openly. They champion a cause and let the lower levels debate or mute the merits. This is where the media has all power to either report unbiased or win (steal) battles. The leader stays above the fray while the opponents are painted to look like lunatics with details that can be minimized. The masses that don’t seem to care are really the voters that when forced to make a choice tend to side with the leader that has stayed out of the battle but still stays true to the vision (safety and fear). If the leader of one side gets into the fight and cries foul, points out lies, brings details to the debate the voters are turned off. If you apply this process to historical political campaigns you will see how effectively it works until a revolution erupts.

If you accept this viewpoint then here is how I beleive it applies to the Speed limit issue:
There were 2 sides of the issue leading up to the creation of the law. One side used FEAR and SAFETY while the second group was all about FREEDOM and RIGHTS. To the unaffected masses (voters and lawmakers) we already have speed limits everywhere so that did not seem too resonate with the Freedom and Rights argument. The obvious winner was the SL.

Everyone is right on to suggest the Laconia article is totally WRONG but trying to fight it like last time will probably still end up with more restrictions instead of real solutions. The educated people that have suggested we all need to be active in setting the facts straight are great Americans and what makes this country great but we will still need to get the leadership position in place for round 2 of the debate. The SL group is in the driver’s seat leaving the opponents of the SL on the defensive. It is also hard to gain ground when you are on the defense but I know there are many brilliant minds that do not give up and I see obvious leaders and winners in the forum member’s writings. I have not thought about a strategy but using position like: “a resource grab by Greedy Rich Land owners or corrupt big liberal government may be a start.

Sorry for the long reply but I think we are on a slippery slope and we need to work more effectively the next time. Have a safe boating weekend all!

NoRegrets,

That was perfectly stated, a thanks at the end of your post did not seem sufficient.

Thank you.

It was LAST YEAR!

You may have a different definition of "high-speed", but any speed that is a lot more than conditions allow meets mine.


This Letter to the Editor is a perfect example of the arguments the opposition must overcome. And quite frankly, that is all but impossible.

I'm not going to debate the high speed thing, but I will point out that the current bill, as passed, is set to expire at the end of 2010. At this point, there is nothing that opponents to the SL must overcome. This is the proponents fight.

If the obvious factors of last year's accident prove true, I definitely agree with you BI, TOO FAST FOR CONDITIONS. I DO NOT disagree with you on that, but I do not sacrifice my character and values to paint it to support anyone's agenda either. I don't think anyone on this board has ever not supported that argument. Except for maybe 2BD, who rambled on and argued that the conditions were fine that night.

But to call that a HS accident, and then state that the lies published in that letter are hard to overcome, well I think perhaps you need to go back and take a hard look at everything.

So now you're delighted that the opposition has to overcome a series of lies and misstatements? I quite honestly thought you were better than that BI. I really did.

Bear Islander....

If your definition of hi-speed is based on prevailing conditions, then you would have to agree that there are times and places on the Lake where the prevailing conditions would allow for Hi-Performance boats to run free of restriction....

For example the Broads on a day like today.... Bluebird weather, unlimited visibility and nary a boat out there!

There is very little doubt (IMHO) that the boat was travelling too fast for the prevailing conditions that fateful night. This accident appears (to me) to meet the burden of proof for Coast Guard Rule 6 (that NH NEEDS to adopt) and NH Negligent Operation/Failure to Keep a Proper Lookout. The effect that HB-847 would have, should have, could have had on that fateful night is still very unclear.

The NHMP has yet to make the accident report public, so we dont know the estimated speed of the boat at impact. We do not know her BAC. Its entirely possible she was traveling at 25MPH or less when the boat struck the island. If thats the case then HB-847 would have had no effect on the tragic outcome...

But she could quite possibly be in violation of other PRE-EXISTING LAWS!


Woodsy

Sorry, you are quite wrong.


The bill to make this permanent has already been written. If the opponents do not put up a fight then the bill to make speed limits permanent will quietly walk through the legislature. And in my opinion the only fight that has any chance at all is a compromise.

Thanks Woodsy.

Personally I believe that Rule 6 would actually give MP more power and do much more to curb the issues we all want squelched. It's an example of a great compromise as those who have claimed that they were scared when a boat "passed by 150' away going 70MPH." The Marine Patrol COULD actually pull someone over for that and at the very least give them a warning and perhaps even a ticket. Rule 6 is actually way more subjective to the officer. An officer may suggest to the boater that his or her actions were not reasonable and prudent due to high boat traffic. At any rate it would most likely send a clear message to the Performance Boaters that they would quickly understand. If you want to go fast you'd better have the room and it may push those individuals to the broads. Just what we've all been pushing for all along.

Just my .02

Surprisingly all this talk and nothing has been filed.

Are you sure?

So it's been proven that speed was the cause? Did I miss the court case?
Give me a break, that is your opinion, not fact. Weak arguement at best.

I am guessing his Island neighbor told him it is written, probably while sitting 'round the campfire. Of course everything a politician says is fact, right? :)
She has more important things to worry about, like getting re-elected and if I have anything to do about it she won't.

Woodsy, when you mention "pre-existing laws" you summed up my argument since day one. I must have been on a different Winnipesaukee than all of the SL supporters this summer. When the weather was nice it was a mad-house out there. (By mad-house I don't mean the number of boats out there or the speeds that they were traveling). I'm sure I wasn't the only boat that had other vessels pass at distances far less than 150'. I'm sure that I wasn't the only boat that had to surrender to a "give-way vessel" numerous times. I'm also sure that I wasn't the only one to be horrified at all the boats traveling through the Governor's/Eagle NWZ just below planing speed creating monster wakes while the MP looked on without care. Maybe the SL supporters are among those who don't know what 150' means. Maybe the SL supporters are among those who don't know who is the "stand-on or give-way vessel" in a given situation. Otherwise it would stand to reason that they would be complaining about those safety concerns as well. I guess as far as the SL supporters are concerned having a boat pass by them at 50' is ok as long as it isn't going more than 45mph. Heck, we could really streamline things by doing away with all of the existing boating laws other than HB 847 since it is apparently the only law we need to be safe. What a fool I am for not realizing this sooner.

It's a good thing that letters to the editor are only opinion. Unfortunate that this lacked any fact, though.

Do you honestly think there's any possibility she was going headway speed or less? Considering she hit it, she was obviously within 150' of the island. I think we can all agree she was going well over the existing speed limit at the time.

This Lake Winnipesaukee forum is really something........one guy writes a well written letter to the editor........normally a letter disappears after one day or so as the old paper gets thrown out. Here on
the forum, it gets analyzed, bisected, disected, refuted and discussed for days. It has staying power as it hangs around and hangs around..

Interesting medium.....a high speed internet forum......lol :D......and don't forget.....going 45mph in a boat is hardly a slow speed......it is a very fast speed......how fast do you need to go? :laugh:


Never could understand all 'the need for speed' anyway.......a motorboat is a machine....amd for most all boats just going 45mph is very very fast.

I cut and pasted from another thread because I didn't want to write it out all over again... but I still stand by this:


You mention that 45 is fast enough... What I find again is that many opinions are based on the individual owners determination of "fast" based on their own boat. For example if you have a 21 foot 1982 Century with a 260, when the boat is a WOT (wide open throttle) it gets up to approx. 46mph. The boat is bouncing around and is very loud in comparrison to its normal cruising speed of 30ish. With my boat cruising at 3600 rpms I will be at 50 mph. At that speed I am perfectly comfortable and well in control. Passengers can talk and have sodas while enjoying the lake. So that being said it is a very reasonable speed for me. Where an individual with a boat that is 17 feet long crusing comfortably at 22 mph that gets passed by me may not realize it feels the same.

I have discussed limits for years now with individuals. In many situations those in favor of limits (even once with a MP officer) I offer to take them for a ride. In doing so we go across "cruising" and they are astounded the control and how slow you feel you are going in a performance boat at 45 or 55 mph.

It becomes upsetting to me and friends of mine, that those passing the laws and those in favor of limits have never been on or experienced a performance boat. Now you may have, but I am just making a generalization.

That being said, I invite you at anytime (once my boat is fixed) to take a ride if you have not experienced a performance boat ride. You may feel differently.

,,,here's one way to solve the need for speed...and no offense intended...well. not too much offense anyway......I think you need a smaller boat.....smaller boats get you closer to the water and more in sync with the wind & waves....instead of just powering through the water a smaller boat is a totally different animal.


It gets better..... for the very reasonable price of $8500. let me sell you my 18' aluminum cabin cruisr, a 1974 Starcraft Starchief with a somewhat late model Japanese 4-stroke 70hp outboard......the ultimate Lake Winnipesaukee cruiser....and capable of handling any waves, anywhere on the Big Lake. Much better than a 28' Baja 1200hp .....and just $8500 w/ a trailer! Cruise along all day on just six gallons....with a planing speed of maybe 18mph? :D:D:D:)

LOL.... thank you for the offer but I have waited my whole life for a boat like this, and been saving for 4 years to get her... I understand your premise of getting a boat that suits the lake. I have been in huge GFB's on the lake topping off over 100mph and while that is perfectly safe to do the lake seems to get very small for boats like that. That is why most are used not only on the lake but elsewhere in the country. My 28 still feels good on the lake and is fun in the broads on a very windy day. However, I didn't buy the boat strictly for the lake. I use it up and down the east coast but Lake Winni is my home. I grew up there and my family has been on the lake for 2 generations. I as well as everyone on this forum obviously has a great attachment to the lake or we wouldn't care so much either way. So in my case, selling my boat wouldn't be an option ever!... I got my dream and plan on having her the next 20 years.

But I will keep your boats in mind if I hear of someone looking.

PS. the ride offer next season still stands!

In politics . . . . timing is everything!

Well written? Wouldn't that include facts? In college, I'm required to submit a works cited (reference) page when I use facts in any of my papers. I'd like to see the author of this letter works cited page, unless of course this is common knowledge...

If it's only about politics. And we all know that politics are all about power, money and getting reelected. How do we identify and fund the replacements who might have a more "traditional" and measured approach on the subject of over reaching need for regulation.

More logic abuse.

If speed limit = fewer boats this year.:rolleye1:
And
Worse world wide economy this year,:(
then is
the speed limit the cause of the worse economy?;)
or
could the worse economy impact number of boats?:rolleye2:

It most certainly is not. There's quite a bit of BS needed to really get silly things passed.

So they wait until the last moment, preferably when the big trial begins, and they flood the media with more silly stories and outright lies. You truly should be proud of yourself, and your cause BI. Truly.

Yes it is!

Emergencies Consistent with Public Safety...
 

Among the NH Marine Patrol boats best equipped for emergencies, can any exceed 50-MPH?

In an emergency, at what speed would NHMP need to go and not pose an additional peril to public safety?

That would depend on the situation. Wide open areas, on a day with excellent visibility, and and MP officer at the helm with skills and experience would safely allow much higher speeds than narrow congested areas traversed at night, in the fog, by a rookie.