So many closed threads
 

Here are my thoughts about the closed threads.

(1) A COVID-19 category is critical at this time. Some posters have information that is needed by other posters, like conditions in stores and the availability of goods, links to scientific studies, statistics, and so on.

(2) One or more forum members are spreading incorrect information like "there is no pandemic," the rest of us are overreacting and there's no need for measures like masks and social distancing, and "only elderly and compromised people are dying." They are making these statements with impunity.

(3) Misinformation about the pandemic is a serious problem across the country that is fueling the intense increase in infections. The Winnipesaukee form should not be adding to this problem.

(4) While members who spread misinformation are not censored, closing down threads is de facto censorship of members who want to have an intelligent discussion based on real information---starting with the simple fact that yes, we are in a catastrophic pandemic.

(5) Everyone who is aware of dangerous misinformation has a duty to speak up and point that out. What is at stake? Our survival.

Therefore, the best course of action is not to shut down threads where people are trying to have a rational discussion, but to shut down posters who deliberately, over and over again, make incorrect, inflammatory statements that, if those statements are believed by other uninformed members, increase the danger to everyone.

I don't want to be ejected myself, but I believe that we have all have a duty to speak out against such dangerous, antisocial falsehoods. There is no gray area here between what is true and what is false regarding the existence of the pandemic. Freedom of speech does not mean that speech can be used to endanger the survival of others. Forum members should press for the ejection of pandemic deniers.

Opportunity to defend myself
 

In response to Sailing, who posted --

"I'm confused. (1) Why do so many here applaud a member who continually refers to the "so-called pandemic" as if it weren't real, when there have been 10.5 million cases worldwide and more than 500,000 deaths, with the US leading the pack with 130,000 deaths? That (US deaths) is 43 times more than the number of people who died on 9/11. It's twice as many deaths as US soldiers killed in Vietnam---with the difference that US involvement in the Vietnam War lasted 8 years (= 7250 US casualties per year) while US COVID-19 victims have died in only 5 months (= 312,000 per year)! Obviously this pandemic is far more lethal than some wars. Do you not think that denying the existence of a pandemic is a bit dangerous for society and your own survival?

"(2) Is there no forum policy that would prevent someone from posting dangerous misinformation claiming that the pandemic isn't real? Isn't that sort of like claiming that cancer isn't real?

"As I always say (though I'm usually not believed), I am NOT making a political statement because the virus itself is a matter of science and medicine, not politics. (The response to it is political, but the virus itself is not.) My questions are serious, not trolling. I'm baffled."

You think it's dangerous, I do not. You reference cancer. I am glad you did. Each year in the U.S. nearly 600,000 people die from cancer, yet we sell tobacco products, fatty foods, processed foods, and all sorts of things that can give you cancer. Cancer is far more dangerous than the Chinese coronavirus, yet our national response is to live and let live.

In this case, the raw numbers are similar to H1N1, with the glaring exception of U.S. deaths (not total deaths). I am not sure whether the U.S. deaths are unusually high because of fraudulent reporting, lumping in of flu, hospice and other causes of deaths, the unhealthiness of Americans, the mishandling of nursing homes and retirement facilities, etc. The important thing to understand is that we did nearly NOTHING about H1N1. Zilch, and we were okay.

You talk about "dangerous." You are kidding, right? Because I have a different opinion about the government's handling of the Chinese coronavirus, my view is "dangerous?!" Regarding my own survival, it is statistically impossible for me to die of the Chinese coronavirus. I am 55 years old and in relatively good health. In the U.S. under 150 people under the age of 50 have died, and nearly every one had an underlying condition, e.g., morbid obesity or diabetes.

In fact, within my universe of family, friends, co-workers and acquaintances, I know of only ONE person who had the dreaded Chinese coronavirus. He is a 40 year old male, with a wife and five kids. This dreaded virus is SO communicable, that NONE of his family members contracted the Chinese coronavirus from him. Strange? The most deadly disease in my lifetime was prevented from being spread between 7 family members. I know this is antidotal, but we are finding out from the more data we receive that it is not very dangerous, and those to whom it is dangerous need to be careful.

I need to be careful around my mom who had COPD and my dad who had cancer. However, the responsibility to be safe is theirs and their family, not yours. To expect others to be responsible for my health and my well being is selfish. I would not expect anyone to give up their business or their livelihood just to keep ME safe.

Lastly, I will end on the fact that we have caused far more damage to Americans due to our overreaction and mishandling of this so-called pandemic. The businesses and jobs lost, the lives lost because of depriving Americans of our liberties in the end will far exceed the damage done by the Chinese coronavirus. It is not "dangerous" to offer a different viewpoint. I would not want to cancel you for your viewpoint, which I believe is "dangerous."

As you believe it is your responsibility, mine is equally important.

Based on the delusional statements "In the U.S. under 150 people under the age of 50 have died," "it is statistically impossible for me to die of the Chinese coronavirus," and so many similar irrational and false statements, I appeal to the forum owner to terminate this poster's account. He has become a destructive presence here.

The America we all grew up in does not censor comments we don't like, we respond to it with facts.

1. corona virus should be taken seriously

2. the response to it by government and especially the media has been a massive over reaction

3. there are so many conflicting numbers being publish about infection counts I am inclined to distrust almost all of it.

So many closed threads
 

SailinAway, who are you to ask someone to terminate ones thoughts or opinions. You must be a joy to be around. Now I ask you to go away and leave this blog so others can have intelligent discussions


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

It's not about whether I like or dislike a person's opinion. It's about whether false statements pose a threat to society. Claiming that there is no pandemic and hoping to influence others with that statement is a threat to society. The person may deny the intent to influence others, but his repeated postings show otherwise.

I agree with everything you said. I have NEVER said that the Chinese coronavirus should not be taken seriously. It should by those who are most susceptible to die from it. My parents have taken it seriously, and so have their close relatives when dealing with them.

I am merely presenting a different viewpoint, and diligently. Sailing, you may want to cancel me. That's okay. However, you would be surprised to know that most people, especially those like me who grew up conservative in the Lakes Region, feel the same way as I do. They are not as vocal as me, but their beliefs are strong nonetheless. I actually feel sorry for you, that you are so triggered and hurt by my words. I can't wait until we debate that climate change is NOT an existential thread, or that 2nd Amendment rights are absolute. I am sure you will want to cancel me then. After all, it's the easiest way to win a debate -- silence the other person. Peace!

Who said there is no pandemic?

I have a personal stake in this. The company I work for in California is on the verge of bankruptcy with 250 employees. The dictator/slash governor just ordered a bunch more closures mostly targeting areas politically opposed to him and his draconian polices. Meanwhile his winery, the one he personally owns, is conveniently open for business. Forgive me if I don't buy into the rhetoric of "do as I say or we are all going to die"

To be fair, I have called it a "so-called pandemic." I use this terminology not to diminish the seriousness of this really bad flu, but more to call out our government's overreaction, which was driven by media and social media.

You have touched on the biggest issue with all of this - the arbitrary anointment of winners and losers. I am glad you shared your story. I know so many small business owners who are suffering because of this. Hell, personally, I am looking at earning 25% to 40% less than I expected to earn in 2020. I did not have a vote in shutting down the economy. I had no say in what our response was to this so-called crisis. People who have absolutely nothing to lose are deciding whether you win or lose. People like your governor, Dr. Fraud, our Surgeon General, etc., they will get paid no matter what. In fact, everyone in the "government service" has NOTHING to lose.

Again, thank you for sharing your story!

Cancel Culture
 

Don’t you have some statues to topple??

Dan

Have to agree that these statements are false. Back on April 8, it was reported in the Washington Post that 759 people under the age of 50 had died from COVID in the US. Anecdotally (not antidotally as someone stated in another post), a 39 year old man in perfect health was among those deaths. Obviously, many more under the age of 50 have died in the past 3 months. I could download the data and figure it out, but I’m lazy.

The words “statistically” and “impossible” should not be used together in this case. The chances may be asymptotically approaching zero, but not at zero.

I don’t think Major’s account should be terminated, but I do wish he’d post more about Lakes Region activity rather than getting hung up on the COVID situation. But perhaps it’s the lawyer in him that keeps him arguing.


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This is a very juvenile statement that reveals a shocking social immaturity. What you don't acknowledge---because you're an extreme narcissist---is that we ALL have a responsibility not to infect others. We wear masks not just and not primarily to protect ourselves, but to protect OTHERS. Why? Because they cannot protect themselves, because there is no vaccine against COVID-19! Because others should not have to suffer if we become ill! Do you know why the Japanese have long worn masks when they have a cold? To avoid spreading it to others, because they recognize their social responsibility toward others.

I hear your rebuttal: those vulnerable people should stay home. Meaning: your right to leave home and get the things you need at stores and enjoy life is more important than their right to do the same. I have news for you: your right to do those things is NOT more important than other people's rights.

The evidence shows that up to 40% of people who have the virus show no symptoms. It's also estimated that in the US only 10% of carriers have been identified, therefore the actual number of carriers is 10 times higher than the number of known infected people. I don't know whether I'm a carrier. Therefore I wear a mask in public to protect others.

You have no concept of what it means to live together as a member of a cooperative civilized society. It's all about you! Your rights, your opinions, your freedoms, your financial profit. It's an insult to the country that you've convinced yourself that this is the American way. It is not the American way. The self-sacrifices of hundreds of thousands of healthcare workers, EMTs, ambulance drivers, and other public and private servants over the last four months is the American way. That's the America I grew up in. Those same people would risk their lives to save yours. Meanwhile, you cling to the childish conviction that you owe them nothing in return! Not even an acknowledgment that the pandemic that has taken the lives of 600 healthcare workers so far is real! You have no shame, only a hollow pride in your delusional, cynical version of what we are as a country.

Here we go again.

SMART lawyers know that the best way to win a case is by finding the TRUTH that is at the heart of the case. Not the client's truth, not the lawyer's truth, but the actual truth.

I must disagree, and defend my pen pal Major. Smart lawyers on the right side of the argument need to find the actual truth. But if a smart lawyer is on the wrong side of an argument, he must lead with misleading data/statements, half truths, and diversions.

If you read Major closely, he has made it very clear that his primary objective is to support Donald Trump. If the President had handled COVID well, Major would be looking for the actual truth. But, unfortunately for our entire country, Major's "client" has not given him much to work with...

I guess my questions are:

When will people feel unafraid to go out into public without a mask? After the vaccine is available?

And will any vaccine(s) also kill the mutated versions of COVID-19? How can we be sure? What if COVID-19 continues to mutate and vaccines are useless, then another is developed but the mutated version mutates before the newer vaccine is available, and so on?


(Snippet from CDC website on general vaccine effectiveness:
CDC conducts studies each year to determine how well the influenza (flu) vaccine protects against flu illness. While vaccine effectiveness (VE) can vary, recent studies show that flu vaccination reduces the risk of flu illness by between 40% and 60% among the overall population during seasons when most circulating flu viruses are well-matched to the flu vaccine. In general, current flu vaccines tend to work better against influenza B and influenza A(H1N1) viruses and offer lower protection against influenza A(H3N2) viruses.)

If the COVID-19 vaccine is only up to 60% effective, will those currently fearful/cautious ever truly feel safe?


Hmmmm....

GB

Respectfully, in my experience, there is no such thing as an actual “truth” when it comes to differing opinions concerning a given set of facts. I have been a commercial litigator for 27 years and in every case I have ever been involved with, my client believed it was absolutely right and that the other side was absolutely wrong. The opposition always believes the exact same thing, even though both sides are operating with the same set of facts. I don’t want to add fuel to an argument here where neither side will convince the other of the “actual truth” of his/her opinion. Coming from a different part of the country where COVID has had a much harder impact, including the death of my 50 year old otherwise healthy and father of 3 cardiologist, I will say that it nice to be here for a break (I have been here for several weeks and spent the first 14 days in my house). Nor am I trying to make a political statement about the virus or the propriety of the governmental response, and my personal opinion wouldn’t move the needle for anyone’s analysis, anyway. I only offer my observation about the danger of thinking about this argument in terms of “absolute truths” because I believe if we continue to approach this argument (and frankly, all others) from our respective battle lines, unwilling to try to see the other side’s position and why they believe that they, too, are right, the divide that separates us currently will only continue to grow. And in case someone wants to label me left or right in response to this post, I’m a fiscal conservative pro 2nd amendment person who also chooses to wear a mask around others while I’m here - MY choice - in case it helps. I don’t care about the optics or the politics. Happy 4th to all and wave if you see me go by in the boat!

Didn’t mean to come off preachy or off-topic in my prior post. Apologizes if I did. Just happy to be enjoying the beautiful lake.

I have just skimmed through this thread, and it’s astounding to me that one person can be as convinced of how right he is as SailinAway is! Veering from his sense of what’s “truth” should have you removed from the forum? Unbelievable!
Sailin, you need to take some deep breaths...that’s it....lighten up. Being right all the time must be terribly stressful and even painful. It’s bad for your health. Also, you can feel free to avoid reading posts by people with whom you disagree.....just don’t demand that people be removed from this forum because you disagree with them.

Yup
 

The countdown begins: 10, 9, 8, 7...

Dave

I'll put in the number six for you. ..... 6 .........

Double thanks for this post. :liplick:

Please Don -

Make the “noise” stop !

The following comment is about the practice of law, but law is a reflection of real life, not something esoteric, so the practice of law has something to teach us about life. In fact getting to the truth, not winning or losing, is the purpose of the American legal system. Even when two sides disagree about a case, there is still a truth at the heart of all legal cases. Most lawyers aren't looking for that truth. Their client tells them a story and they want to spin the client's story in a way that they think will be convincing to the judge and jury. Their goal is to win. This is a weak starting point. It's smarter to spend time looking for the truth at the heart of the case that explains the rest of the case. Person A did this, and therefore that happened. The truth is revealed by the case documents and testimony. When you have the truth you can put together a case that revolves around the truth, even if your client is not in a favorable position. On closing, judge and jury will be more convinced if the story you tell revolves around the truth at the center of the case. So yes, two different stories will be told, but there will be one truth at the center if the lawyers are acting in accordance with the purpose of the judicial system: to find the truth.

Coming back to our topic, there are truths at the heart of COVID-19 and many aspects of it are black and white. We are either in a pandemic or we aren't. Either more than 100,000 people have died of COVID-19 in this country or they have not. Either a mask can help prevent the virus from being spread to the air when someone coughs, or it can't. Either the number of infections is rising rapidly in Florida and Texas, or it isn't. These are all yes/no FACTS, not debatable ISSUES. Granted, the truth may change as new scientific knowledge is discovered, but there can be no truth without a search for that knowledge.

Then there is the interpretation of the facts and what to do with them. Knowing that infections are rising rapidly in Florida, how should individuals and authorities respond? Here's where social and political values come into the picture. It's a very grave error to allow political values to cloud the fact finding that is essential for making rational decisions in a crisis, especially when millions of lives are at stake.

So many closed threads
 

I understand SailinAway’s frustration. To constantly have threads hijacked and closed because one person can’t stop typing his “truth” is very frustrating. And a lot of his “truth” is incorrect. He’s also very insulting to people who don’t believe his “truth,” not directly, but by using terms such as Dr. Fraud. So what does that say about those of us who believe this is serious and take Dr. Fauci’s advice seriously?

Once again, I don’t think Major’s account should be closed, but he needs to give it a rest.


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Perhaps you'd like to do more than skim the thread. You will find that what I object to is deliberate distortions of obvious truths, also known as lying. My political views can be debated, but certain truths should not be up for debate when lives are at stake. We ARE in a pandemic and people who want to sell the lie that we are not in a pandemic and other such nonsense should be stopped.

Did you actually say "lighten up"? You do realize we're mired in the greatest crises since the founding of our country?

Interesting article in the Washington post: "How Fauci, 5 other health specialists deal with covid-19 risks in their everyday lives"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...c93_story.html

I daresay the war of 1812, the Civil War, and WWI and WWII were a bigger crisis than covid-19.