Sandy Point Going Condo!
 

It looks like Sandy Point Resort will be sold to condo developers. The price is in the $10 million range.

The potential buyers are doing their due diligence now but there should be a closing before the end of the year.

At one time there were 77 units there but it looks like in condo form there will be about 36 units, with docks. There is over 2,000 feet of lake frontage.

One concern is whether to rehab existing units or build new on the existing footprints. Another concern is the septic system is located across the street so it requires a pump system. But, without town sewer that is better than having the system on the lake side of the street.

At one time the price would seem crazy but with the current real estate market maybe it isn't that out of whack!

Do they build houses anymore ?

Based on the the asking price for the units at Barton’s Motel. The developers have a chance to make a very nice dollar.


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I use to own a cottage directly across the bay from Sandy Point back in the late 70's. Alton Bay has changed so much.
This run up in prices will probably put the nail in the coffin for the rest of the motel style rentals.

There's no money in motel style rentals...

One other problem.
 

One other problem: Sandy Point is on seasonal town water. I believe the water is turned off from around Oct to April. Water lines can be found actually above ground in the vicinity of Sandy Point.

Dave

I know that but there still are a few left and now these motel owners will be cashing in.
The area is changing, more people are making it their home.
The resort feel of years ago is fading fast. :(
I have fond memories of camping at the track on motorcycle weekend and then a few years later moving up to the luxury digs of a 10x10 rental cabin, LOL!

Sandy Point going Condo
 

I am not an Alton Bay resident, but I certainly hope the local government has strong planning ordinances to address what is obviously a questionable septic system.

Don’t understand how Alton has managed to avoid a sewer system with over 20 miles of heavily populated lake shore frontage. More and more of it is becoming 3 and 4 season residences as well.

Internet driving directions say it is 9.3-miles from Sandy Point, Alton, going up Route 11 to Lake Shore Park in Gilford, next to Ellacoya State Park.

Lake Shore/Ellacoya has that very prominent septic pumping station shed so why not run a septic line from Sandy Point, 9.3-miles, to Lake Shore/Ellacoya!

That was easy! .... :laugh:

With a regional sewer hook-up like that, Sandy Point in Alton could have more densely built condos, similar to Christmas Island, Laconia, or Lake Shore Park, Gilford.

This could definitely be an issue! Does anyone know if the now vacant Sandy Point Restaurant is tied into the same system?

From what I understand, everything on the property is tied to the same septic, with tanks throughout the property, pumping to a leach field across the street.

If the number of units goes from 77 down to 36, the septic may be able to handle the reduced load. Docks around the lake are selling for $100K in 24-48 hours. Attach a nice condo and sales for $400K should be no problem. This will be interesting to follow. Thanks to folks like Upthesaukee for keeping us up to date.

The 72 unit number would include all the hotel rooms in their original configuration. It will be interesting to see what the plans are for the property, existing structures, utilities and docks. Certainly a lot of potential there for a developer. Just going to be a matter of what the town will permit.

Few motel units at Sandy Point
 

Sandy Point cottages went seasonal back in the 1980's. There are about 35 cottages all leased by the season. The Hillside motel was changed from 8 rooms to 4 two room efficiencies and they are also seasonal leases. Same thing with the unit below which was converted from 6 rooms to 3 seasonal efficiency units. The only actual motel units rented out weekly or overnight are the 12 rooms at the top of hill in the Scenic motel, and the 6 units on the beach which are also converted efficiencies which had originally been 10 one room units. Right now that makes about 53 units, no longer 77. Uppy is correct, the water is town water and is shut off from mid October to mid April as the water supply runs above ground at the bridge 1/ 2 east on Rt 11. Only the owner's residence has a well. All the cottages share septic systems which are pumped across the road to the leach field across from the restaurant building which is also on the shared system.

The condos being built at Barton's are a different story. There they have city sewers and year round water. Sandy Point is a little more rustic and I am sure the 1940's era shared septic and seasonal water will be an issue.

Ha! Just wait till the NH DOT learns of this. If the the rentals/restaurant facilities in the front (the buildings on Rt. 11) get torn down, the DOT will want their right-of-way back. That'll seriously cut into the developer's profit margin! Nothin's easy!

Are you talking about the old Railroad right of way?

Row
 

I remember hearing that the last room or 2 of the upper motel is within the ROW. I believe the ROW is 50 feet on either side of the center line of Route 11. Not sure if the restaurant building is also within the ROW as well as the 3 cottages below the embankment just east of the Sandy Point entrance.

Railroad Right of Way
 

Gilford residence learned early on the state never left the right of way. In fact the Winnipesaukee Basin uses the right of way for the sewage pipe. They ran out of money before Ames Farm. There are still plans to continue the sewage all the way to Alton. Not sure if they will get funded, but I'm sure once they start testing the waters it will continue.

The problem with extending the sewer is that the last I knew Franklin was at capacity if not over. Now maybe it has since been expanded if that is possible and I am not sure it is.

Ugh ... I forgot about the leaching field/parking lot across the street. That's definitely in the DOT ROW; the developers can kiss that goodbye. Sigh ..... :fire:
Life, in some ways, was better when the railroad was there; instead of a state highway!

Sandy Point Condo
 

Having read all these posts, and seen the different little tidbits of information, this project looks to me to be something which will keep lawyers and surveyors busy for long time. Sandy Point is geographically a very sensitive area, and it would be a real shame if technicalities became the deciding issues with respect to development.

It will be an interesting to see what Alton will allow a developer to do with the property, if the sale even goes through. The tax implications for the town could be quite significant if a condo project is approved.

It will be interesting to see how DES Shorefront permitting looks at the change from seasonal to year-round development.

But will they look at an existing structure?

Or at what point of refurbishments do they kick in DES Shorefront regulations?

Last I experienced, seasonal to year round was a big deal for them.

Seems like a shame to add more condos, Is there really a shortage of condos on Winnipesaukee???

Sandy Point going condo just shuts out visitors even more from getting a really nice lake experience.

I think a nice hotel/inn would so much more interesting. There are so few places to point people to where they can stay in a really modern/clean/nice hotel on the water.

I suppose the seasonal nature of the region makes an upscale resort not too likely, probably not profitable enough in the modern world.

As a kid there were so many nice family oriented but clean/nice and affordable places to stay on the lake. Now its all privately owned and prices are easily exceeding most peoples primary homes. Totally flip flopped from my childhood when Winnipesaukee waterfront homes with beach and dock were less than half the cost of peoples primary homes.

Progress, I guess,,,

Progress?
 

Reading through the "Summer Staffing" thread, there are many reasons why running a hotel as you describe, is more rare these days. Nevertheless, you can rent many of these condos on VRBO, but usually not for just one night.

Im sure you are correct, but staying in a rented condo is not at all the same as a resort.

Clearly there are differences and for many there is still a preference for the hotel/resort over other options.

Not much we can do about it, what happens to Sandy Point is a private matter. I'm just a guy remembering what was very fondly and finding I'm far less happy with what is. I suppose it happens to each generation as we age. For me, the best I saw of Winnipesaukee probably ended in the early 70's and will not be seen again. Hard to forget playing pinball in the old game room on the lower level of Sandy Point, and going down to Downings Landing and that marvelous smell of the old marine gas and 2-cycle oil,,, or maybe the old donut shop next to the mini golf, or the old roller skating pavilion. I'm sure many people will have very different experiences and preferences.

Price
 

at 36 units they will have to sell in the $700 k to$800 k for any profit

Keep in mind the new Condos on paugus bay are selling for well over 800k and only share a day dock


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This is all going to end very badly. Not sure why these idiots that are over paying for all of these properties don't see it. I saw this exact thing happen in Florida. two years later mass foreclosures and fire sale prices. People that don't learn from history are destined to repeat it. House across from me sold for $625K less than 2 years ago. Last month sold for $825K. Is it worth it? NO. The people getting hurt by all this craziness are the locals that can't afford to live here anymore. Hang tight folks and bank your money. The next realestate crash is coming. Be ready then. I will be.

Agreed, if this happens, I see million dollar plus selling prices. Most especially on the south end of the lake.

The biggest difference I see today is a lot of properties are selling for cash, no mortgage means no foreclosure. So unless we see a major recession I don't see it any time soon but I do think the market will slow down.

Back in 2004 2005 advise was to purchase any real estate as price will go up 10% -30%. Buy. Buy. Buy.

Then, much hit bottom.

Hmmm . . . .

Just think if you purchased in 2005 and held til now. You could be up 80-100%. Real estate should almost always be thought of as a long term investment unless your in the business of flipping homes. You would be hard to find real estate that decreased in value if it’s held for at least 5 years.


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Smaller footprint
 

Big difference is the Paugus Bay townhouses are a good size. If the Sandy Point units have to be built on the original footprints, they will be a lot smaller. There may only be 36 units planned, but if they are year round and occupied longer, the septic may have to be totally redesigned and enlarged. Right now Sandy Point is really only busy on the weekends. Most of the leasees work during the week and use the camps for vacations and weekends. The Paugus Bay units have city water & sewers. Sandy Point has 1940's era septic and seasonal town water. The cottages are not insulated and have 1940's wiring as well. I would think besides the cost to buy, another $5M would be needed to improve the property. That is provided the town and DES allow what the developer has planned.

The Paugus Bay units are all garden style units. Yes they have access to city water and sewer, but they are on Union Ave. Traffic year round.


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If they are talking about trying to convert the current cabins to 2 story condos on their current footprint, I can’t see how they would be marketable. Your talking about $800 - 1000 sq ft. maybe, depending how the stairs layout for in excess of $500-$600K. It will be challenging to get those they DES and town regulations, but wish them luck.

Way too much $$$
 

These same developers rebuilt an 8 unit colony on the Center Harbor/Moultonborough town line. The 2 story condos are either 2 or 3 bedroom units, the smaller ones having only 650 square feet! Along with a 25 foot dock, these units were priced from $639K to $695K. Hard to believe, but people actually paid those outrageous amounts. They are all under agreement. Here is the 650 sq footer that sold for $639K. I guess people have money to burn. I don't know if a bank would even give a mortgage for a small place like that on a platform. Is it worth it? Google "14 Lake Shore Drive. Moultonborough" to see these units. Again, there are only 8 units here while the proposal is for 36 units at Sandy Point. Add the state ROW issues along Route 11, and that complicates things.

The sales listing for Sandy Point
 

You may well be right but if this is current (no date), the future of Sandy Point apparently hasn't been decided yet. The video lists a whole bunch of possible uses for a potential buyer. No mention of the sewer and seasonal town water issues that would certainly affect some of these possible uses and no mention of price.

https://www.legacyhomegroupnh.com/sandy_point

The original buyer dropped out. After the first agreement there were back up offers. There is another buyer at this time and the property is again under agreement.

We shall see if this one goes through.

I commonly hear two different predictions for the future, property values will hold, and the bottom will fall out.

I think I will personally not sell nor buy at the moment, its just too volatile right now.

If they are right that the prices will hold (or worse go up) then I cant afford to move anywhere anyway, so no impact to me

And if the bottom fall out people are right, I would rather be waiting with ready cash.

It does seem to me we are ripe for a major economy crash and property value adjustment. How that impacts the Lakes region remains to be seen. Lots of new cash dumped into the area like we saw some decades ago in Vermont by New Yorkers looking to get out of the city, only to realize they were not suited for rural life and bailed leaving many vacant expensive homes behind,,,

I suspect Winnipesaukee will have a lot more buffer to ride out such an event than other places, but the Sandy Point property is a good example of buying high, having to invest a lot, and hoping the people with deep pockets are still interested when its done. Not an investment I would gamble on.

I see a lot of potential for a lot of Winnipesaukee property for sale at prices lower than the last buyer paid. It may not be a bottom falling out scenario, but there is a lot of potential for lot lost "investment" dollars,,,

So for the moment I am sitting comfortable on the side watching the chaos of our world.

If we could all predict the future we would all be wealthy. Would we all be happy, probably not.
So live your life like it could be over tomorrow and don't worry about what other people have.

Clearly working hard, planning, saving and such doesnt work any more.

Prices of just about everything out pace the working mans income.

For Oil-Based Paint...
 

For the first time in decades: Last year, I bought gasoline to clean my paint brushes.

Hard to believe all the stuff we used to clean in gasoline, leaded gasoline!

I would wash my hands with the stuff.

How did things get so skewed? I grew up in the 50’s…my father worked, my mother stayed home….on one salary, we had a three bedroom cape, food, clothes, birthday presents, Christmas presents, and a week in a camp on a lake in Maine.

Dickie it was that way even into the mid-70s. I can’t imagine walking home from school and not having my mother waiting with a snack before I went out to play until I was called home for supper at 5.


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Increasingly over the past 20-30 years our economy has been set up to reward those already wealthy. This has the side effect of hurting those still striving. Just to pick a couple of examples--Taxes on income from the stock market are lower than taxes on salaries. Insanely low interest rates drive the stock market ever higher. Both of these things drive up real estate values. Increasing real estate values hammer those renting and in their early home owning years.

So Mom's working because the family needs a house that's WAY more expensive relative to income than what Grandma and Grandpa had to pay

Maybe, maybe not. However, the bottom line is one has to work hard to achieve their goals.

Spending constraints, and smart investments go a long way in achieving financial goals.

Looks like second buyer is backing out also

Right you are.
This isn’t 2008. What is far more likely to happen, is available inventory will go up once forbearance ends. That will have (if only temporarily) a flattening effect, but it’s highly unlikely to affect this area. This is a vacation area and an area of wealth with many cash buyers.

What a house is worth isn’t determined by shocked locals who have seen a milder market in the past. Sure, covid has unexpectedly compounded this, but the effects on demand may be permanent: Every day, more professionals and executives have the option and make the decision to telecommute. Covid gave this a big boost, but many of the effects will be lasting: Companies don’t need a large, expensive, central office to be successful.

Where are you going to live when you can live anywhere you want?
Most of us know the answer to that :)

Sure but we have already seen the lake camps swallowed up by the rich crowd... the rich crowd is getting pushed off the by the richer crowd. What is lost are the working folks that used to wait and cook at your favorite restaurants, cut your grass and build your decks who can no longer afford to live here

I know. 2 years ago I could have (and should have) bought on the lake.
I ended up 1/8 mile away and had to find a dock.

it’s not so much about the investment for me:
When I find a place on the lake, I’ll keep it forever.

The real estate market has already started to slow down. Sellers are reaching for the stars with super high asking prices. You're not seeing the multiple offers over asking as was earlier this summer.
If interest rates start to rise then the slow down will continue which will eventually lead to lower offers and price negotiating again.
Anyone that bought in the past year will probably see some of their equity eaten away.

Fortunately, my seller didn’t want to do some key repairs, they started with the price too high (and we bought in the winter), so they came way down for our offer. I won’t lose anything other than hypothetical “stupid money” equity.

But a lot of people buying turn key properties and flips will get hosed.

This is not surprising.

Think back: Lake Shore Park was created when there was a lot of available land lakeside.

It gave "the working man and woman" an opportunity to build and own a cabin on or near the lake for an affordable price, with beach access.

Not anymore: "No room at the inn."

As the available land has been built on or is otherwise protected there is only one viable solution: the price rises due to demand.

agreed. But the "smart" money on the lake is not buying for a 5-10 year return. It's a generational asset

It remains to be seen if this was "smart" money. :)

HA! Absolutely! We'll know in just another 30 years

I bought a few years ago, with no financial expectations. So I feel extraordinarily lucky that what I thought was a splurge was actually a genius investment with free vacations for life (at least so far...)

Sandy Point was just listed for sale yesterday on realtor.com at $12.5mil.

taxes
 

I wonder myself whether many of the recent waterfront home buyers getting in at these historically elevated home prices are in it for the generational asset or for a few years stay-cation knowing they are going to pay to play for a few years and then sell.

Either way - it is an expensive equation. But for a multi-generational asset I would argue a large number of waterfront homes are not well suited for that outside of a family heirloom / memory making items. They are money pits. Extremely enjoyable money pits.

Waterfront homes historically and into the future are not great investments for monetary return. At least by any way I have been able to think about it. I would love to be convinced otherwise..

Outside of Moultonborough, it isn't uncommon for decent sized water front homes to have $20,000 + tax bills. $2,000+ insurance, $3,000+ utilities, maintenance? landscaping / winter care? annual dock & boat expenses?

If this is a second home it is exactly that - secondary expenses on top of everything else in life, too.

Believe me - I know there are many many many people that can afford the 40k+ annual operating expenses happily while they are getting use out of it (covid). I also know many people that fall into that category of wealth who would never pay $40k a year in addition to the mindshare to maintain it without getting significant use out of it.

In my opinion, waterfront homes are meant to be enjoyed in the current. Otherwise unless you are the Marriott family there will be many annual checks that gets written which you look twice at. There is a reason water front homes turn over more frequently than non waterfront homes.

Long story short - I think their value is more directly tied to peoples immediate interest in the region and overall economic conditions. Both of which are at historical peaks this very moment.

Meanwhile, back to Sandy Point...Isn't it still restricted seasonally due to water and sewer issues? So, $12.5MM for a fixer-upper? Some of the condo conversions along Weirs Blvd had similar issues years ago, and instead of sellin g thew entirety, they converted and sold individual rooms. The new owners did the interior fix-up. Condo association did exterior stuff. Would that work for Sandy Point?

Looks like it went back under contract again yesterday

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1...11085750_zpid/

What’s the status of the sale? Haven’t seen or heard anything but noticed the property down the street recently sold. Hope it works out for them.

The most recent buyer moved on as well. I understand it is going back on the market tomorrow.

Get your checkbook ready!

Post War
 

Just after the war here was a lot of development around the lake up to maybe 1955. Around 1980, a lot of those motels went condo as original owners wanted to retire. Sandy Point is one of the last of those and maybe missed a window when it was a little easier to convert with less restrictive septic/sewer requirements. And, in Gilford, Laconia Meredith Center Harbor, etc, the new Winnipesaukee River Basin sewer was helpful. It would help the west side of Alton Bay if that line extended past West Alton. Senator and Alton state reps should pursue that issue. So should anybody who wants to re-develop Sandy Point.

Looks like they took it off the market for the winter. Too bad they’ve had interest, but town seems to be blocking development of the property

Just curious...
 

Just curious, how is the town "blocking the development"?

Dave

Sandy Point Going Condo!
 

Zoning, petition, septic? Not sure, but it’s good to see some interest in preserving the area.


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Sandy Point going condo
 

This was originally posted in May 2021, and it looks like it may be the key point going forward with any development at Sandy Point.

Also, from another angle, there is an interesting conundrum in the making, namely, if the COVID situation continues, there may not be a market for any new development, and, conversely, if the COVID situation clears up there may not be a market for any new development.

Hmm?

I don't want any new homes or new condos built AFTER mine was built. I wish to preserve the beauty of the area AFTER my mcmansion/condo was constructed.

Sandy Point Going Condo!
 

Touchy subject?
You’ve not only raised an argument against a position I never held (grossly misrepresenting my position), you’re taking it to an extreme exaggeration with a made up plot.

Perhaps you are trying to build a condo, but can’t?

Exiting hypothetical-ville and back into real-ville:
My position is simple:

I want a place on the lake, but I don’t have one.
Building more would make it easier, but an area can only hold so much sewage, traffic and population.

I’ll put the environment and quality of life/water over my own selfishness. Glad to see checks and balances preventing us from stressing the lake beyond its means.
We are already pushing it…


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this is true i saw on zillow a house on long island pineridge rd for 589k a simple split level 300k on a good day. omg who would pay that?? or even close to that price????

Sandy Point Going Condo!
 

It’s hard to predict what the market is going to do, but it will probably pick up again in spring and summer.

Covid has changed the game for everyone and will probably have lasting effects on how people work and make decisions in general.

This is an area many people wanted to live, but thought they couldn’t, as most office professional/executive work obviously isn’t here.
Not only is this changing (remote work is an option for more people than ever), this compounds with a sort of “soul searching” people have gone through over the last 2 years, causing many to quit their jobs and live with more intent. This means moving where they want to.
I’m one of these people: I was born in NH, moved away as a kid and always wanted to return. 30 years later, it was the options that covid afforded that got me back here.

A rate climb will definitely slow price growth, but I don’t see the demand of people wanting to be here slowing.


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The Sandy Point property will be back on the market in the spring. One of the stumbling blocks for previous interested buyers has been the septic issue and how to deal with it.

With a current assessment in the $3 million range I would hate to be paying the taxes on this property while it generates no revenue. But, there will be a big payday, someday!

No revenues????
 

Sandy Point is continuing operation in 2022 as seasonal rentals & motel. The leasees all renewed for the coming season.

I just heard that and I was surprised. I didn't think they were going to do that.

Even if it sells, the leases will have to be honored unless the potential buyer makes a successful effort to buy them out.

When you are talking about the type of money this property has been listed for the price it might take to buy out leases would seem insignificant.

Planning and permitting will take a considerable amount of time so any potential development might not be approved until fall anyway.

So is the now defunct + vacant Sandy Point Restaurant part of the package?

Could it be torn down with that spot being used as a new, and giant septic system for the new development?

Just a thought....

I agree. The hoops and expense for all of us on the lake to put in a new system that is acceptable to NH is huge. We love the lake and consider those costs part of preserving the quality. This "condo" project has a lot of ancillary issues they will have to overcome to build. I think the added costs will be huge, additionally now that the septic system there is "of note" my guess is whoever buys this property will have to update the system at the very least.

sewer vs septic?
 

The Winnipesaukee River sewer project runs from Moultonborough to West Alton, sending waste water to the WWTF in Franklin. Maybe someday we'll have a similar project for the Wolfeboro, Alton side of the lake running down to a facility, say, in Dover? In the 60's, the Fed's funded about 95%. If they did that again, this would be a great infrastructure project. This won't help a current Sandy Point project, but it's the type of thing we, as a state, should be considering.

2022 season is a go!
 

Sandy Point posted on their Facebook page today that it will be Business As Usual for the 2022 season. :liplick:

The property is currently off the market, although I am sure if someone were to make a decent offer a deal would be made.

The major impediment seemed to be dealing with the sewer issue. There is some though that the highest and best use might be some type of boat rack storage facility. Although there is significant demand for that it would be difficult to construct something that wouldn't visually detract from the area. I am sure many people would be against it.

If docks and boat storage continue in very high demand the price increases may make some combination of dockage, marina, and even some residential use type facility financially viable. That assumes that zoning issues could be complied with.

Sandy Point Beach Resort will no longer have motel/hotel rooms. They are all seasonal leases now.

My family and I will miss SPBR. I'll miss the view outside the motel rooms up on the bluff. I will miss the walk down to the ramp and docks where I could leave my boat. We will miss both "big beach" and the swim float, and we will miss "little beach" on the dockage side.

I'm glad that we did get 3 summers worth of having been able to stay and thoroughly enjoy the place for every heat wave that we were able to stay during the week.


From their website;

General Notes
Sandy Point Beach Resort will be seasonal for the 2023 season, and all of our units are leased for the season. There will not be any motel units available for the 2023 season. We want to thank all of our guests from past seasons for choosing to stay with us.

Clearly easier from the Management prospective and likely a lot less wear and tear on the property........

This appears to purely be about the family not being able to maintain the property as a hotel. No local help available and nobody in the family willing to take over.