Closing the Speed Limit Forum
 

I have received many similar requests. Can anyone make a good case why this train wreck known as the Speed Limit Forum should be kept open? This issue is settled for now. No amount of bickering will change that. It is beyond me what the members who continue to bicker and attack each other endlessly here think they are accomplishing. I'll be honest, the way some of you on both sides have abused this forum is disgusting and discouraging.

The result is that the entire Winnipesaukee Forum, created to provide a friendly and helpful place to get Lake information, has been poisoned. The nastiness is now spreading to other areas of the forum. Almost no thread escapes as questions and comments are picked apart, criticised and hijacked. When I try to control it I am criticised and attacked.

I now often wonder if all the time I spend maintaining the Winnipesaukee Forum is worth it. Running this site takes a tremendous amount of my time and is a 365 day a year commitment. Although there is still a lot of great information posted the overall impression that it is a nasty and unfriendly place is growing. Many, many regular members are now staying away and many of the new members that we attract are insurgents who just add to the problem. I know that several regular posters here don't even boat here. You are just here to put down any opposing points of view at any cost.

When HB-162 was settled in 2006 I shut down the speed limit discussions and allowed a single closing comment for each participant. The result was this thread which I think is the best thread ever in this area. Members were forced to give a single, well thought out statement of their opinion without attacking others. I think visitors could easily read those opinions and decide who they agreed with, without sifting through all the nonsense.

Unless someone can convince me that this current format is productive, I will close all threads when I return from vacation on 8/17. I will allow a final thread where everyone can make one final statement. I will aggressively moderate the thread and remove any attacks on others or multiple posts. That thread will remain open until I feel everyone has had a chance to post a closing comment.

After this area is closed I will have to watch the Boating area closely to ensure that the speed limit bickering does not infect those threads. A notice will be posted and I will immediately remove any speed limit comments. I believe that is the only way to return this forum to its intended purpose.

Since HB-847 will expire at the end of the 2010 season reopening the topic at some time may be justified.

Close it!!!!
 

Get rid of it, see you later, implement that anyone that discusses it has to be timed out for a couple of days, Please do.

Mr Webmaster, thank you for all your hard work and you are right since this topic has hit the Forum's image has had a shadow cast over it. We need to turn that around. i say we table this till November of 2009!


All in favor? Truce all over!

Don,

Thanks for all of your hard work- it is appreciated by most that post here!!

Please close this sub forum- it has outlived its useful life. I agree with your assessment that this topic has created many adversarial relationships and that is a shame- that has caused much nit picking on unrelated topics.

I believe in one simple online ethos- if you would not say it in person don't say it online.

John

The speed limit is one of the most important issues for many boaters on winni. It will continue to be an issue – especially after it is put into effect next year and even more so as the 2-year sunset clause approaches. I personally believe that it is an issue that forum members be allowed to discuss. If a separate forum is not dedicated to it, then there will be all sorts of posts made in the boating forum. A separate forum allows those who are interested in the speed limit discussion to participate, while not subjecting other members from having to wade through speed limit posts in the boating forum.

I return to my university in just over a week, where I am a senior, trying to complete two majors, while being a year-round varsity athlete. So I won’t have much time to post anyway – so closinging this forum will not affect me all that much. Yet I still believe that this forum should remain open for those who want to discuss the speed limit.

On the other hand, I have been very hurt by some of the personal attacks made on me here. But I have also received many supportive pm’s from other members here, thanking me for standing up for the paddlers. So I don’t feel like I can’t just walk away and stop standing up for my views. So, personally (in a selfish way) I’m for closing this forum, since that would end most of the personal attacks on me.

I run a very small international gaming forum, so I do understand (on a much smaller scale) what you are dealing with – I'm well aware that there’s no pleasing everyone. What helps my sanity is that I have two excellent moderators who enforce my forum rules when I'm not there. And the rules are very well enforced – personal attacks and trolling are never allowed on my forum.

One possible suggestion might be to have the speed limit forum only viewable by registered members – and perhaps have a moderator or two (preferably one from each side) to help you maintain a civil debate that is free from all the personal attacks.

Whatever your dicision, I want to thank you for putting up with us - and for letting us have this disussion for so long.

~ Arwen ~

I'm with you
 

Shut it down.

I appreciate the work you do to keep this place going. It's a thankless job more often than not, I'm sure. Thank you:)

Evenstar- The bill passed and has been signed into law. There is no longer a need to debate the bill. Discussions about excessive speed belong in the boating forum.

Good luck with your studies and athletics. I, for one, feel bad that you have had to endure the personal attacks that you have- it is a shame.

John

Don...

Thanks for allowing this battle to continue for as long as you did! Your efforts our sincerely appreciated by myself and many others. The Great Speed Limit Debate has run its course... HB-847 has been signed into law (for at least 2 years)... I know some who will or already have traded in thier Hi-Perf boat for a big cruiser, I know some others who will take thier chances, and unfortunately I know still others who will leave and spend thier hard earned $$$ elsewhere. Maybe some smaller family boaters will come to fill the void these big spenders left, maybe they wont. Given the current state of the economy I seriously doubt anyone will be filling that void soon. Maybe the NHMP will write lots of tickets, maybe they won't. Maybe you can beat the ticket in court, maybe you can't. The point-counterpoint battle seems to rage on ad nauseum. Only time will tell. This whole speed limit issue has poisoned not only this forum but the whole lake. Once friendly people now bicker incessantly with each other! People wonder where "the wave" went to? It went out the window when HB-162 was first introduced... a divisive bill that pitted boaters against each other. To all I say be careful what you wish for!! You might just get it... and a whole host of unintended consequences!

Its time to say good bye to the Great Speed Limit Debate!

Peace Be the Journey!

Woodsy

Shut it down.

Thanks Don!

Shut it down
 

Shut it down Don. You are right, the acrimonious debate has infiltrated other threads.

I agree
 

It should now be shut down. I don't think there is much more that either side could or should say. Thanks for keeping it open so long.

On the point about all the time you spend think about Evenstars comment on moderators. I think you should have a few trusted individuals to moderate specific areas of the forum and free up some of your time.

As always, thank you for your hospitiality and your keen ability to gleen the wishes & desires of your guests.

Please, enjoy the rest of your vacation and the valuable time you have at the Lake with friends & family! :)

Skip

Supporting this forum
 

Don,

Could you remind us again, how we could provide financial support for the forum?

Thanks for putting up with some of our (I include myself) pointless rants Don.You have gone far beyond where you had to and are to be congratulated for your restraint by letting all of us vent on a very sensitive issue.I am 100% behind you on ending this now.Thank you Thank you Thank you.

Contributions to Winnipesaukee.com!
 

Excellent time to bring this worthwhile cause up!

You can go to this LINK and make an indirect contribution by purchasing from any of the fine merchants listed, or simply drop down to the "cash contribution" link and make a direct financial contribution.

I am sure that a number of our prolific posters (myself included) have either purchased from participating merchants or made a direct contribution in the past....just as I am sure their are a couple of heavy hitters out there that have yet to "belly up to the bar", so to speak. :)

Anyway, now would be a great time to chip in a little extra, if you can spare it. I am hesitant to speak for Don, but I know deep down inside he values any and all posters to the site...regardless of their ability to contribute financially to it's upkeep. But I am sure he appreciates any help he can get from those of us with a little spare change in our pocket....

Again, great idea and great timing Ramjet! :)

I vote to shut it down. The short-term battle is over. Over the next two years we will have emperical evidence of the results.

When it comes time to discuss speed limits or other controversial topics, we should be adult enough to discuss it in the forum proper, according to the forum rules.

OK, I paid my "penance" by way of a donation. Hope this helps the cause. Thanks to the webmaster for facilitating these discussions.

Please please close it!
 

I am new and started reading the forums right before ice out this year, the change has definetly been noticed.
Thank you so much for the work you do, there really are people out here that appreciate it!

Wow, just when I get really down you guys pick me up. I appreciate all the supportive messages posted in this thread and the private messages and emails I've received. Several of you offered to help with the site and a bunch of unexpected and generous donations came in today. Thank you!

Since I wrote the original message I've been on the boat all day (gorgeous, spectacular day on the water). I spend much of the time thinking about the Lake and the Forum and wondered what the reaction to my post would be. I thought about why otherwise rational and civilized people go so crazy here. The only explanation I could think of is that the anonymity of the Internet allows people to say things they would never say face to face. I remember noticing that at the last ForumFest people who were staunch adversaries in these debates laughed and talked politely with each other. If we could somehow retain that civility here there would be no need to close this section of the site.

Thanks again for all the replies and support. I feel much better now :coolsm:.

Okay, I'm jealous!!


Don, I'm a noob here (7 months and counting) and I don't know you at all except from what I've seen of a couple of your posts here and there but I want to thank you for putting up with those of us that ranted and raved (on both sides of the issue).

As a newbie, I don't feel my voice counts for much on your decision and it IS your decision but I would agree it's probably time to close it, if only to give all of us (myself included) time to cool off. Perhaps it can be re-opened in 2 years when the law sunsets and hopefully, we'll all be a little more civil the next time around.

Thank you for the opportunity to blow off some steam!

Close it down and go out and enjoy your boat!!!

People seem to be bringing thier bad attitudes from this topic into the rest of the board. Shame. I am sure that if we take this issue away and most of us would all get along quite well. Hopefully the good vibe can come back. Mabye revisit in two years, maybe not. Thanks for allowing it to go on as long as you have.

Maybe leave the threads there so that people can reference them but certainly NO MORE POSTS!!!

If none of this makes any sence please forgive me I have not had more then 4 hours of sleep for 3 weeks now!! Business is GOOD!!!! :D

Jon

Yours and everyones voices are important to this forum. All of them will be taken into account with Don's decision as to how he will handle this topic I'm sure. It has always been that way and I'm sure it will continue to be that way into the future.
Don, thanks ever so much for all your work and long hours trying to keep up with us all. I vote to shut it down.

Thanks Don
 

I am embarassed to note that I only became aware of the great speed limit debate when I was enjoying a humerous thread about kayakers. Since then I have read a lot... and learned a lot about the issue. I want to thank the webmaster for that. Having said that,.. I am very aware of the change in attitude that has permeated on this site. I vote to closing down this debate now. I am also in favor of celebrating this great site, the work the webmaster does, and this magical area we all want to call home (even if we can't yet)

Not so fast!
 

First I want to express my gratitude to Don. I certainly would not go through what he has gone through in dealing with this BS.

I am among the most egregious persons that post to this forum challenging others, but I don’t apologize for that. I have challenged folks whether I believed in what their position on “speed limits” was or not, when I thought they were wrong I challenged them in the strongest terms I could.

Should Don shut down the Speed Limits debate? No.

I know that this is an unpopular position to take but the speed limit debate, even though the bill has been signed into law, is not over.

The law, as signed by the governor, is allegedly a temporary law that will expire January 1 2011. I think that we all know that the NH Legislature will allow this law to become permanent unless opponents of the law aren’t active and vocal and that requires continued debate. The legislature does look at THIS FORUM that you have created for guidance in their decisions.

Unless there is continued debate regarding the effectiveness of the law then making it permanent is a done deal without debate!

I have posted twice about the attitude of NH vs ME when it comes to attracting tourists and their money. I know I am not popular for raising the question, but if you think about it and you are competing against a neighboring state for tourist money…who will win given the prevailing attitudes?

Thank you Don,
Please keep the thread open.

You know, when I was reading the threads before this, I was in agreement with everyone that it was time to close the speed limit subforum.
However, after reading airwaves post above, I believe I have changed my mind, or at least I am having second thoughts. He makes a great point that the legistature does read this forum. If there is no speed limit debate, at least a public one such as this, the perception by the legislature may be that the speed limit is acceptable to the boaters on the lake.
It will be hard to put a concrete value on the effects of the speed limit, but there needs to be some place to talk about the merits of it (if there are any).

Thank you Don for all you do for the forum. Having been a moderator at another forum, I can appreciate the work that you do.

Chip,

Good points-do you think a forum poll could accomplish the same thing without the bickering? Perhaps we could all be limited to one response? I am not sure what type of controls (automated) can be implemented to ensure only one post per user, etc.

Don, shut it down. And to be honest, I'm sorry I spoke up against the 5 post a day limit now.

Sounds like you experienced the wild west out there on your boat.

Oops, probably shouldn't have written that.;)

Seriously though, shut it down, you've been more than generous with it, it's time for a rest.

No, I don't think a poll would be sufficient. I would be open to a heavily moderated subforum however. I think that especially in the next 2 years it will be important for peoples voices to be heard.

I dunno, I am tired of the bickering as well. Yes, I know I was involved in some of it. I did try to remove myself from it, but just could not keep my mouth (fingers?) quiet when I saw misinformation being written by some.

My contention is this. I understand that some dislike the topics and content in the speed limit subforum. So if it is that bad, and you don't like to read it, then don't. I realize it sounds kind of brash, but it is what it is. A topic as heavy as this is, is bound to have a certain amount of tension and acrimony. You can either choose to read it, or you can choose to ignore it.

Shut it down for now.
 

Until there is another law to debate. I'm sure it will never end. The possibility of size and horsepower restrictions are very real.

I am the 3rd generation of lakefront property owners. I am familiar of the likes of the late Capt. Lavallee and late Capt. John Goodhue. My grandfather and my Dad were good friends of the Irwins and have driven the 'Miss Winnipesaukee'. There were countless sppedboats since the '20's that past into our hands. To my knowledge there have never been an accident in the family.

Since the speed debate, the lake has never been the same. I have never heard of anything that have done so much to split everyone into opposite corners in the past. I use to drive around and everyone would wave. From the paddlers, sailboaters to the Capt. on the Mt Washington. All the property owners use to wave as well. Even flash a light or two of a flashlight in the dark. Now the sparkle is gone. What have become of our belove lake? It would be nice if someone can turn the tide.

Please shut the speed limit debate down. But allow future debates whenever there is a law, rule or regulation that effect the people that uses the lake. It is nice to see what people have to say. Comments are appreciated by all but not the sarcasm. Enough is enough. The damage is done.

Thank you Don for all you have done. The Winnipesaukee forum has been a subject at get togethers in Breckenridge CO. I even have a friend on Lake Havasu who reads it occasionally. Touches a lot of people opinion of Lake Winnipesaukee.

Don,

Unfortunately, the negative tone seems to be a growing problem for many websites. But in my experience, your level-headed moderation keeps this one more on topic and positive than most. Keep it up, well done, and thank yiou!

As for the question, for all the reasons you've stated, it's time to shut it down. What I have found most interesting to watch is how little all the writting and debating has changed positions. Both sides are firmly entrenched and have moved little since the start.

Let those who want to continue the debate create and moderate their own forums. The tools and servers to do this are easily available these days.

Shut it down
 

Don, thank you for donating your time to this site. I think the speed limit thread has run its course and now the debates are pretty static. Everyone has expressed their opinions and they are not changing. As for the legislature reading this forum, your idea to have one final, heavily moderated thread where everyone can post their final opinion on the speed limit is a good one. Everyone think hard about what to post and make your point, and the legislature can come in an read what their constituent's opinions are on the matter. It would be concise and your point would not be lost in the endless back and forth.
Don thanks you again for providing this site. It is very enjoyable for us that can't be at the Lake 24/7 to get our fix.

Don...does this mean some of us can be OFF moderation now?? :laugh: Seriously, thanks for letting us say our peace even if it did cross the line. You are very patient to say the least. I guess the old saying "Patience is a virtue posses it if you can, you'll find it in a woman but seldom in a man" does not ring true for you !!! Once again thank you for your patience and giving us a place to vent.

Time to close the sub-forum
 

Don,

Thanks for providing a place for these discissions. It is time for it to close and for everyone, myself included, to get more civil.

R2B

Take it out back
 

..... Behind the wood shed and put a bullet in it..... :D


Time to kill the discussion on a subject that has passed it's time.... :laugh:


Great job moderating the forum Don, I know that we all appreciate what you do. Thanks for keeping the place up and running.:)

There will never be another topic that drives so many comments as the speed limits argument. It will be missed.

Hopefully, New Hampshire's new 5% "friendly" income tax will soon fill the void.:eek:

Not by everyone. It's all been said a hundred times. If you need a fix of bickering and endless repetition of points you will be able to reread the threads as much as you like.

If you enjoy moderation you can try. This site is dedicated to Lakes Region issues.

I am serious about returning the Forum to its intended purpose and more friendly tone.

Don,

I read the forum for its Lake Region news. Whatever is happening on the Lake I will will find here before I see it on the news. So, you indeed provide a fantastic FREE service to all of us.

There is nothing left to say on the speed limit issue. There are no arguments that will change either sides opinion. I agree that it is time for the speed limit forum to go.

Thank you for this invaluable FREE service that you provide.

PS: It is always very small minority that causes all the pain on the forum or the world for that matter. Moderate or eliminate the trouble makers would go a long way in helping the matter. For me I would go with the 3 strike rule and be done with them.

It's an obvious, and expected end Don. You've been a wonderful host, for the whole board.

One thing to consider, perhaps ponder over the winter. What's left to discuss? Certainly not the speed limits, as most who supported it were shown to be less than genuine in their efforts.

Can specific groups be targeted, because other people don't like their style of boating? Of course they can, it's already happened.

Perhaps a new thread can be opened when we must review new proposals that seek to restrict others. Perhaps horsepower, perhaps size, perhaps the color of a boat.

Many people of these ages don't like to debate, because it might get heated. They feel uncomfortable voicing their position, and would prefer that just nice things be said. But many of these people seek to pass laws that affect everybody, not just the groups they don;t appreciate. Heaven help them when they are targeted, since I doubt they'll be less vocal.


Don't talk about people being on the lake now, It would take many, many years for a lot of these folks to equal my time behind a wheel on Winni. It's just so sad that these are the folks that have the reigns now.

Insurgent History...
 

It can always be reopened if needed: how many of the "boating-incident" threads didn't end up in the sub-forum? :confused:

Skip knows how to craft a website, and could take $100 of donations to set one up. Since I've co-moderated two Wolfeboro forums previously—with another member here—I hereby volunteer to work at the new, Speed-Limit-Only, website! :)

It's frustration: it's another contentious election year, plus gasoline prices have never been higher.


Local insurgents closed down one Winnipesaukee-area website www.tuftonboroforums.com and attacked two other Wolfeboro forums. One was nearly closed down on April 30, 2006 with web-savvy tricks. A very different local forum simply purged every boating thread every few days!

The single Wolfeboro site that did allow the free-for-all remains operable today. The Moderator (a member here) removed only the very-worst posts, consisting of threats, revealing names, and even measuring the docks of supporters for code violations!

Not accustomed to issues of such controversy, some regular contributors were lost. Merrymeeting and ApS are members there, and Merrymeeting hasn't posted at Wolfeboro for a very long time.

Try the oars, tillers, or paddles of those trying to enjoy the lake, and you'll see the problem other than from behind a wheel.

It's time for another catharsis: in my own closing statement, expect to see my pledge to not mention the word "speed" at all. (Or "sea-kayak" :D )

There are other "trigger-words" that should be part-and-parcel of each member's pledge. Anyone violating their own pledge should be at risk of post-deletions—and with no explanation needed.

IMHO. :cool:

Talk about "fear and emotion" (term used by opponents of HB 847 and NHRBA)...now you're equating the passing of HB 847 with laws that could restrict even the color of a boat. That's just plain paranoid. And as far as legislating against "boats they don't like", that's a blatant oversimplification designed to obscure the issue... people don't like them because they have monopolized the boating experience on Winni. As I've said, a hundred boats can go by in the course of an afternoon and have very little impact, then one GFBL screams by and all conversation needs to stop. So, the people, the house, the senate, and the governor all felt the situation needed regulation. Similar to the process that would be followed to enact any law. The color of a boat???...you're being a fear monger. So you've slammed the whole legislative process...talk about being "less than genuine" in one's efforts.
People who have wanted a law like HB 847 for many years have every much right to their opinions as you do. And getting this law extended should be far easier than the origional HB 847 as people see that the whole NH economy didn't go down the toilet. And people on other lakes will be unwilling to allow their lakes to become the dumping grounds for these high impact boats; legislation in this regard(i.e. speed limits on these lakes) is the only other natural consequence, not legislation against something as silly as color.
I find your post to be indicative of the negative tone and intolerance behind the move to end the speed limit debate on this forum. Please Don, shut it down!

Don,

Please shut this down, sooner rather than later......... Thank you.

Are you home yet?
 

Looks like the debate has moved to this thread...and here I thought this thread was for comments about shutting down the debate. I fear you have a tough job ahead monitoring the boating threads. If you are getting offers to help you moderate the forum, I think you should seriously consider them...there are several regulars on this forum who would do a great job. I offer ro moderate the weather forums...you know how out of control CLA and R2B can get! ;);););)

Please shut them down ASAP. I refused to read them for a while, but they're like a train wreck...you just have to look. I would also suggest you save yourself some time and not start one last thread for everyone to post their opinion...I think we know how everyone feels.

Thanks for all you do, Don. It's very much appreciated.

Rose