Winnipesaukee Forum - View Single Post - Saving oil

jmen24 · 03-23-2010, 11:39 AM

OK, some things came to my mind when reading through the specs on this system, some good, some bad. Then I thought about how this compares to an outdoor ambient temp sensor and how these two add up to each other.

The good.
1. It makes sense that by adjusting the spray rate at your burner would save fuel costs, why use a full blast of fuel to only heat the water 3 degrees (within the boiler)* when you can create a slower burn.
2. Seams easy enough to install, I would think that knowledge of simple boiler wiring would be needed or multi-function zone control installation experience. Both are DYI possible but some basic know is required to keep things looking good and working properly.
* One thing to remember is all hydronic loops lose heat as they pass through the loop. So there is quite a bit more to the story than just output temp, I will come back to this.

The bad.
1. If you are just regulating the water temp within the system and not adding in a variable such as water temp needed, there is a possibility of using more fuel when you do not have the need for it.
2. The boiler and burner need to be properly sized for the application to begin with, if not then you are just putting money into a system that is a hog to begin with. This product appears to give a false sense of fixing the issue while in reality could make things worse.
3. By reducing the amount of flow at the nozzle you could potentially cause the burner to run longer to gain the same water temp increase, if the loop is circulating.
(2 and 3 are assentially the same thought, just wanted to clear up that I am not piling on the Bad's)

Ambient temp comparison.
An outdoor ambient temp sensor works by taking a reading of the outdoor temp and then mixing in an amount of cool water into the loop to create only the water temp needed to heat a space to a set temp. In a radiant system this can be as low as 90 degree water, compared to a standard output of 120 degree in a off the shelf boiler. That provides a huge swing in how often a boiler has to run to satify demand.

Instead of adjusting flow at the nozzle it actually adjusts the water temp after the boiler, mix in system. Some boilers will incorporate the ambient into the burner the same way the above system works but it is only making an adjustment to keep up with the outdoor temps, not to regulate a water temp based on load.

My thoughts.
The idea that this sensor is only using a single variable in determining water temp tells me that it is still going to allow for waste within the heating system. There are some days that the water temp does not need to be as high because the outdoor temp is not very low, these are the days that you will still be wasting fuel.

In a forced hot water baseboard heating system, you are getting waste by the bucket full every time your system fires up. Now with that said, I am not saying tearing out an existing system and replacing is the way to go, super expensive for the return. The easiest way to reduce fuel consumption in a hot water baseboard heating system is to reduce the amount of time the boiler is running, this is achieved two ways.

1. Have large rooms on seperate zones from bedding areas. The idea is to keep the amount of pipe that the water runs in to a minimum. Remember that you are losing heat in the pipes even as they run through the floors and walls to get to the baseboard. A heating system will run far less often if it only heats the spaces asking for heat, if the thermostat is in the living room and two bedrooms, a bathroom and the kitchen are on that same loop, they are going to get heated as well whether they need it or not.

2. Have a boiler that is properly sized for the heating requirements of the space, I know, that boiler has been in the house for 10 years and has been running fine. You would be suprised at how many homes have heating systems that are far to small for the needs of the home, old or new. Also a higher efficiency boiler may yield a far better return on investment in the long run. Anything in the 10 to 15 year old range is going to be at best 80% efficient, the new models are at about 92% (for oil).

Based on how the specs look, I do not doubt that it will save you some money, how much compared to other options is the unknown, every heating system is different.

This is just my opinion, you are free to take it for what it is worth.

03-23-2010, 11:39 AM	#4
jmen24 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,139 Thanks: 223 Thanked 319 Times in 181 Posts	OK, some things came to my mind when reading through the specs on this system, some good, some bad. Then I thought about how this compares to an outdoor ambient temp sensor and how these two add up to each other. The good. 1. It makes sense that by adjusting the spray rate at your burner would save fuel costs, why use a full blast of fuel to only heat the water 3 degrees (within the boiler)* when you can create a slower burn. 2. Seams easy enough to install, I would think that knowledge of simple boiler wiring would be needed or multi-function zone control installation experience. Both are DYI possible but some basic know is required to keep things looking good and working properly. * One thing to remember is all hydronic loops lose heat as they pass through the loop. So there is quite a bit more to the story than just output temp, I will come back to this. The bad. 1. If you are just regulating the water temp within the system and not adding in a variable such as water temp needed, there is a possibility of using more fuel when you do not have the need for it. 2. The boiler and burner need to be properly sized for the application to begin with, if not then you are just putting money into a system that is a hog to begin with. This product appears to give a false sense of fixing the issue while in reality could make things worse. 3. By reducing the amount of flow at the nozzle you could potentially cause the burner to run longer to gain the same water temp increase, if the loop is circulating. (2 and 3 are assentially the same thought, just wanted to clear up that I am not piling on the Bad's) Ambient temp comparison. An outdoor ambient temp sensor works by taking a reading of the outdoor temp and then mixing in an amount of cool water into the loop to create only the water temp needed to heat a space to a set temp. In a radiant system this can be as low as 90 degree water, compared to a standard output of 120 degree in a off the shelf boiler. That provides a huge swing in how often a boiler has to run to satify demand. Instead of adjusting flow at the nozzle it actually adjusts the water temp after the boiler, mix in system. Some boilers will incorporate the ambient into the burner the same way the above system works but it is only making an adjustment to keep up with the outdoor temps, not to regulate a water temp based on load. My thoughts. The idea that this sensor is only using a single variable in determining water temp tells me that it is still going to allow for waste within the heating system. There are some days that the water temp does not need to be as high because the outdoor temp is not very low, these are the days that you will still be wasting fuel. In a forced hot water baseboard heating system, you are getting waste by the bucket full every time your system fires up. Now with that said, I am not saying tearing out an existing system and replacing is the way to go, super expensive for the return. The easiest way to reduce fuel consumption in a hot water baseboard heating system is to reduce the amount of time the boiler is running, this is achieved two ways. 1. Have large rooms on seperate zones from bedding areas. The idea is to keep the amount of pipe that the water runs in to a minimum. Remember that you are losing heat in the pipes even as they run through the floors and walls to get to the baseboard. A heating system will run far less often if it only heats the spaces asking for heat, if the thermostat is in the living room and two bedrooms, a bathroom and the kitchen are on that same loop, they are going to get heated as well whether they need it or not. 2. Have a boiler that is properly sized for the heating requirements of the space, I know, that boiler has been in the house for 10 years and has been running fine. You would be suprised at how many homes have heating systems that are far to small for the needs of the home, old or new. Also a higher efficiency boiler may yield a far better return on investment in the long run. Anything in the 10 to 15 year old range is going to be at best 80% efficient, the new models are at about 92% (for oil). Based on how the specs look, I do not doubt that it will save you some money, how much compared to other options is the unknown, every heating system is different. This is just my opinion, you are free to take it for what it is worth.