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Woodsy · 10-19-2007, 12:55 PM

APS & LI...

You guys are bit wrong in some of your assumptions, and thats because you weren't at the hearing and you are going by what the reporter wrote. The reporter didn't get it completely correct. The MP actually did a pretty thorough survey and identified a few issues.

Some of the stuff you missed because you weren't there...

1. There were 6-7 test zones... of them, only 2 were public knowledge! Those two were the designated speed limit zones, Bear Is/Meredith Neck and Rattlesnake Is/Mainland. The MP actually connected data from a bunch of other places such as Paugus Bay, top half of Alton Bay, between Governor's Is and Timber Is and Center Harbor. I think they also tested radar out in the broads between Rattlesnake and Welch, as it was marked on Capt Gallagher's map, but I am not sure. (I sat right behind/left of Capt. Gallgher at the meeting) All of these places had one thing in common... the boat traffic pattern was such that the use of the radar gun(s) was OPTIMIZED!

2. The MP did not admit to untrained radar operators. In fact Capt. Gallagher stated just the opposite. There were 2 types of radar guns, Doppler and Laser. The MP officers were trained in the use of both. BUT as Capt. Gallagher pointed out there is a BIG difference between radar trained and radar certified when it comes to the court system and getting a conviction. Radar Certified officers have to be certified in the use of radar according to NH Police Training and Standards. There is a certification program in place for the old style Doppler Radar. However, there is no certification program for Laser Radar as of yet.

3. Capt Gallagher also pointed out the flaws inherent in each radar system. Both systems work best when the boats are traveling in a straight line towards or away from the MP unit. The Doppler Radar's biggest flaw was that it is indiscriminate. He used this example: You have 15 boats within range of the radar unit, you point and shoot at what the MP officer believes is an offending boat. Unfortunately, there is no way of telling (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the doppler radar actually tracked the alleged offending boat. You need to have "beyond a reasonable doubt" to secure a conviction in the courts.

Capt. Gallagher stated that the Laser Radar was difficult to operate in rough and choppy conditions due to water/weather conditions or boat wake. I suppose its got to be pretty hard to keep a small laser dot on a boat 1500+ feet away that is moving up down and all around, from a platform that is doing the same thing. I did notice the SP in MA on RT 3 the other day using laser radar, and the officer was standing still in a shooting stance (like if he were shooting a rifle) and targeting vehicles... so there is obviously something to this?

4. The data that the MP did not include in the report was from boats that were transversing the radar unit. In other words, they were traveling across the nose of the unit from left to right or vice versa with very little change in distance relative to the MP unit. Because of the law of cosines, this would result in a zero/error or very low MPH readout depending how acute the angle. Radar (laser or doppler) works best when the boat is moving toward or away from you in straight line. Any deviation from a straight line results in an error in the readout. Because of the law of cosines, this error is always lower than the actual speed of the vehicle (a boat in this case). So APS, in fact the MP threw out the lowest readings....

The meeting briefly touched on cost, especially when the Capt. Gallagher told the committee that the MP wanted 2 officers per radar patrol. I assume this is for safety reasons, one MP officer to drive the boat and maintain a proper watch, and one MP officer to operate the radar gun. The commitee thought that was rather expensive and Capt. Gallagher concurred. They also touched on estimating the speed of boats by eye and that led to a brief discussion of enforcability, with Capt Gallagher reiterating that there is a BIG difference between using radar for the survey and using radar to secure a conviction. He again brought up the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. The commitee briefly discussed the "reckless & negligent operation" statute and how it relates to speed and other factors. Chairman Flanders was noticably irritated and pretty much aquashed that line of questioning.

Hope this helps to fill in some of the missing info...

Woodsy

10-19-2007, 12:55 PM	#8
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,969 Thanks: 80 Thanked 980 Times in 440 Posts	What you missed at the meeting... APS & LI... You guys are bit wrong in some of your assumptions, and thats because you weren't at the hearing and you are going by what the reporter wrote. The reporter didn't get it completely correct. The MP actually did a pretty thorough survey and identified a few issues. Some of the stuff you missed because you weren't there... 1. There were 6-7 test zones... of them, only 2 were public knowledge! Those two were the designated speed limit zones, Bear Is/Meredith Neck and Rattlesnake Is/Mainland. The MP actually connected data from a bunch of other places such as Paugus Bay, top half of Alton Bay, between Governor's Is and Timber Is and Center Harbor. I think they also tested radar out in the broads between Rattlesnake and Welch, as it was marked on Capt Gallagher's map, but I am not sure. (I sat right behind/left of Capt. Gallgher at the meeting) All of these places had one thing in common... the boat traffic pattern was such that the use of the radar gun(s) was OPTIMIZED! 2. The MP did not admit to untrained radar operators. In fact Capt. Gallagher stated just the opposite. There were 2 types of radar guns, Doppler and Laser. The MP officers were trained in the use of both. BUT as Capt. Gallagher pointed out there is a BIG difference between radar trained and radar certified when it comes to the court system and getting a conviction. Radar Certified officers have to be certified in the use of radar according to NH Police Training and Standards. There is a certification program in place for the old style Doppler Radar. However, there is no certification program for Laser Radar as of yet. 3. Capt Gallagher also pointed out the flaws inherent in each radar system. Both systems work best when the boats are traveling in a straight line towards or away from the MP unit. The Doppler Radar's biggest flaw was that it is indiscriminate. He used this example: You have 15 boats within range of the radar unit, you point and shoot at what the MP officer believes is an offending boat. Unfortunately, there is no way of telling (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the doppler radar actually tracked the alleged offending boat. You need to have "beyond a reasonable doubt" to secure a conviction in the courts. Capt. Gallagher stated that the Laser Radar was difficult to operate in rough and choppy conditions due to water/weather conditions or boat wake. I suppose its got to be pretty hard to keep a small laser dot on a boat 1500+ feet away that is moving up down and all around, from a platform that is doing the same thing. I did notice the SP in MA on RT 3 the other day using laser radar, and the officer was standing still in a shooting stance (like if he were shooting a rifle) and targeting vehicles... so there is obviously something to this? 4. The data that the MP did not include in the report was from boats that were transversing the radar unit. In other words, they were traveling across the nose of the unit from left to right or vice versa with very little change in distance relative to the MP unit. Because of the law of cosines, this would result in a zero/error or very low MPH readout depending how acute the angle. Radar (laser or doppler) works best when the boat is moving toward or away from you in straight line. Any deviation from a straight line results in an error in the readout. Because of the law of cosines, this error is always lower than the actual speed of the vehicle (a boat in this case). So APS, in fact the MP threw out the lowest readings.... The meeting briefly touched on cost, especially when the Capt. Gallagher told the committee that the MP wanted 2 officers per radar patrol. I assume this is for safety reasons, one MP officer to drive the boat and maintain a proper watch, and one MP officer to operate the radar gun. The commitee thought that was rather expensive and Capt. Gallagher concurred. They also touched on estimating the speed of boats by eye and that led to a brief discussion of enforcability, with Capt Gallagher reiterating that there is a BIG difference between using radar for the survey and using radar to secure a conviction. He again brought up the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. The commitee briefly discussed the "reckless & negligent operation" statute and how it relates to speed and other factors. Chairman Flanders was noticably irritated and pretty much aquashed that line of questioning. Hope this helps to fill in some of the missing info... Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.