Northern Pass Rejected by NH Regulators...

[MeredithMan]

From tonight's Boston Globe:


http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/...3lM/story.html

[thinkxingu]

Good. If there was a long-term benefit to NH, and the wires would be buried rather than on giant towers, things might be different.

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[fatlazyless]

Good for the NH Site Evaluation Committee ....... the transmission line was planned to go straight down Main St in Plymouth taking two years to install underground ..... it would totally mess up the free parking spots..... and make getting a 50-cent cup of hardware store coffee difficult ......if not impossible ....... what really matters ....... el cheapo coffee!

[BroadHopper]

There is another project to add more capacity to the existing line that runs through NH. It's already an eyesore so adding to it would not make much difference.
http://www.nhbr.com/January-19-2018/...nt-initiative/

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Good for the NH Site Evaluation Committee ....... the transmission line was planned to go straight down Main St in Plymouth taking two years to install underground ..... it would totally mess up the free parking spots..... and make getting a 50-cent cup of hardware store coffee difficult ......if not impossible ....... what really matters ....... el cheapo coffee!

I'm sure this was the main reason why it was rejected.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Good. If there was a long-term benefit to NH, and the wires would be buried rather than on giant towers, things might be different.

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Yes and no. While at the present moment there may not be an immediate need for additional capacity, at some point based on the rate of consumption the ability to provide ample power and reliably distribute it will need to be addressed. There is no doubt power consumption is on the rise. Whether or not the proposed Northern Pass was the best option to address this of course has been a point of contention for years now. Eventually something will need to be done, hopefully more thought is put into the next proposal which will garnish more public support.

[Patofnaud]

I am sure that if MA did a bit more themselves to allow cleaner energy in, or provide benefit to NH, folks in NH would be more inclined to give to the cause.

But when MA shots down things like offshore windmills (NIMBY mentality) then why expect NH to level forests and tourist areas.. *shrug*

Same reason NH folks shot down the high volume gas pipeline that was to cut through Mason/Nashua/Husdon/Pelham to get gas into Dracut MA, because MA towns did not want to gut through their own land.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Yes and no. While at the present moment there may not be an immediate need for additional capacity, at some point based on the rate of consumption the ability to provide ample power and reliably distribute it will need to be addressed. There is no doubt power consumption is on the rise. Whether or not the proposed Northern Pass was the best option to address this of course has been a point of contention for years now. Eventually something will need to be done, hopefully more thought is put into the next proposal which will garnish more public support.

The impact on NH vs. the benefits to NH were clearly out of balance. The jobs provided would have been very temporary and most of the power left the state. In the end, NH was simply going to be a pass-through. If that were a different equation--if NP could guarantee a sizable savings on energy while also minimizing its impact--this thread wouldn't exist.

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[noreast]

Right, That's the whole thing right there. I'd love to know what was promised to the NH politicians who would sell out for so little impact on our power needs. There was going to be money going somewhere. We need more power, This wasn't it.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

The impact on NH vs. the benefits to NH were clearly out of balance. The jobs provided would have been very temporary and most of the power left the state. In the end, NH was simply going to be a pass-through. If that were a different equation--if NP could guarantee a sizable savings on energy while also minimizing its impact--this thread wouldn't exist.

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I agree...

[Kamper]

We don't need more electricity anyway. We all have generators!

[FlyingScot]

The fundamental problem with grid "improvements" is that the utility gets paid just for making them, even if they are not necessary today or in the near future. So Eversource's profit motive is to make a case that they are needed, and then build, build, build. This is very different from other businesses that take a risk when they expand, and then get paid only if customers buy more.

[fatlazyless]

.... and, here's a photo of Main Street-Plymouth, which was the planned NH-Route 3 route for the Northern Pass electric transmission line, running down Plymouth's Main St, underground, that shows the Rand's Hardware, been there since 1908, the free parking spaces out front with cars parked, angle style like from 1933, and the 50-cent k-cup coffee is on the right inside...

http://www.unionleader.com/in-Plymou...ss-is-finished


....well, well, well, and how's about that ...... everyone reading this wants to be going to Rand's Hardware & Rental and buy or rent something very, very expensive, like an on sale snowblower, a small Caterpillar excavator or a Ditch Witch trencher ...... Wednesday's starting at 7-am is half price rental day ...... like, no kidding!

They will be happy to sell you anything in the store!

[Kamper]

I agree that it would be a bad idea to route this through a town center. The local infrastructure needs will eventually impact and be impacted by the power line. Plus, of course, the gross disruption during construction.

But, the terms 'grid' and 'power pool' are used for reasons. Using NP to provide power elsewhere frees up power in the pool for other areas including ours. In the event our supply lines are disrupted there is the capability to route some of Hydro Quebec's power to other areas.

Saying a flat-out "No!" is just as dumb as routing NP through Main Street.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Kamper

But, the terms 'grid' and 'power pool' are used for reasons. Using NP to provide power elsewhere frees up power in the pool for other areas including ours. In the event our supply lines are disrupted there is the capability to route some of Hydro Quebec's power to other areas.

True, but it's also true that we could get much more energy security by reducing consumption. Our recent move has really opened my eyes on this front.

In Mass, we just went from a 30 year old poorly insulated house with oil heat to a new well-insulated home with electric heat pump inverters. The new place is 2/3's of the size of the old. Our combined oil and heat bills have fallen by 2/3's! Further, we're about to install solar, and those numbers look great too.

So we still need the grid, but with no tree-hugging, sweater-wearing and shivering sacrifice, we're going to end up reducing our utility bills by something like 90%.

I wish we had woken up earlier. We should have insulated the old place 20 years ago and added some Mitsubishi inverters when they became available.

[Outdoorsman]

Originally Posted by PeterG

.... In Mass, we just went from a 30 year old poorly insulated house with oil heat to a new well-insulated home with electric heat pump inverters. The new place is 2/3's of the size of the old. Our combined oil and heat bills have fallen by 2/3's! ...

Sounds like a wash to me.

[Patofnaud]

Inverted math.

Think of it as the house is 1/3 smaller and the consumption is 2/3's less.

(When he said 2/3's the size you think 2/3rds smaller)

FWIW, I've been doing the same, replaced baseboard heat to radiant hydronic, replaced all lights with LED, replaced old worn probably 70% efficient boiler with a new 89% efficient and my next step is moving from an electric hot water heater to an indirect hot water tank.

[FlyingScot]

Pat's right--my bills have fallen by twice as much as one would expect with equal conditions. (I also left out some usage details which makes the savings even more.)

Every home is different, but just about any typical utility customer can cut their bill sharply with modest investments.

[IslandRadio]

Originally Posted by Patofnaud

I am sure that if MA did a bit more themselves to allow cleaner energy in, or provide benefit to NH, folks in NH would be more inclined to give to the cause.

But when MA shots down things like offshore windmills (NIMBY mentality) then why expect NH to level forests and tourist areas.. *shrug*

Same reason NH folks shot down the high volume gas pipeline that was to cut through Mason/Nashua/Husdon/Pelham to get gas into Dracut MA, because MA towns did not want to gut through their own land.

That wasn't a real good project for anyone. The pipeline was ultimately designed to provide for the exporting of gas, and not local consumption - at least the pipeline that was originally going to go through Northern Mass.

[BroadHopper]

New England Power auction shows there is sufficient electric resources. Cost is the lowest in 5 years. Hopefully this cost will lower our bills.

http://www.vermontbiz.com/news/2018/...ower-cost-2021

[Patofnaud]

Originally Posted by IslandRadio

That wasn't a real good project for anyone. The pipeline was ultimately designed to provide for the exporting of gas, and not local consumption - at least the pipeline that was originally going to go through Northern Mass.

Yeah, I left that part out as my brain had the details a bit sketchy..

If I recall it basically went like this:

• Gas Co says put a pipeline through MA to Dracut for gas and much benefit!!
• MA said nope not through my Berkshires you don't!
• Gas Co redesigns route to Dracut through Southern NH.
• NH Says Nope, not through my Monadnock Region you don't!

Meanwhile, it is uncovered that the owners of the line are ex-ENRON exec's (you know those nice guys), as they quietly got existing Canada to Dracut pipeline relicensed to be able to reverse flow from Dracut to the St. Lawrence Seaway port.

So basically let us chop up your states so we can store in Dracut and then ship back up to Canada and then to Europe for 2x the price with no benefit to NH or MA but a big benny to our wallet.

Forgive me, that was like 12 months of politics/haggling in 10 mins.

[CaptT820]

Just as a view from the other side and perspective, the routing through downtown Plymouth would not disrupt a whole lot of business or daily activities as it was to be placed underground through a process called micro-tunneling (think Chunnel under the English Channel, just on a smaller scale). I don't want to give away too much information about the project as I work for a consultant, but if the lines are not able to go above ground, they can always be placed below ground.

The process of micro tunneling does not create an open cut and cap situation as most construction processes do and only requires two access points on either end of the tunnel. Tunnels can be made from 2-inches to 48-inches in width and can be miles long.

Just want to bring another prospective to this discussion.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by CaptT820

Just as a view from the other side and perspective, the routing through downtown Plymouth would not disrupt a whole lot of business or daily activities as it was to be placed underground through a process called micro-tunneling (think Chunnel under the English Channel, just on a smaller scale). I don't want to give away too much information about the project as I work for a consultant, but if the lines are not able to go above ground, they can always be placed below ground.

The process of micro tunneling does not create an open cut and cap situation as most construction processes do and only requires two access points on either end of the tunnel. Tunnels can be made from 2-inches to 48-inches in width and can be miles long.

Just want to bring another prospective to this discussion.

This is not another perspective--it's a distraction and rhetorical trick. Kind of like saying "Don't worry about heart surgery, the saline IV doesn't hurt a bit."
No one was complaining about a micro tunnel in downtown Plymouth. The complaint is the macro damage done across miles of beautiful countryside.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by PeterG

This is not another perspective--it's a distraction and rhetorical trick. Kind of like saying "Don't worry about heart surgery, the saline IV doesn't hurt a bit."
No one was complaining about a micro tunnel in downtown Plymouth. The complaint is the macro damage done across miles of beautiful countryside.

You mean just like all those windmills on the mountain tops up in Groton? Talk about an eyesore! But I guess that’s OK because it’s “sustainable” and PC.

[joey2665]

Those windmills completely destroyed the mountain side view.


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[FlyingScot]

SP/Joey--Don't we have enough to disagree on already? I've never posted in favor of wind power, and would never advocate something that would harm the Whites.

If memory serves, all of my energy posts have been on solar power and insulation. Unless you're in the oil or coal business, I'm not sure there's anything to dislike about them. Most simply describe the huge financial advantages to going green.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by PeterG

SP/Joey--Don't we have enough to disagree on already? I've never posted in favor of wind power, and would never advocate something that would harm the Whites.

If memory serves, all of my energy posts have been on solar power and insulation. Unless you're in the oil or coal business, I'm not sure there's anything to dislike about them. Most simply describe the huge financial advantages to going green.

Wasn’t pointing a finger at you, PG, but rather the hypocrisy of the tree huggers that are screaming about the irreparable harm to the views that Northern Pass would cause.

[joey2665]

Originally Posted by PeterG

SP/Joey--Don't we have enough to disagree on already? I've never posted in favor of wind power, and would never advocate something that would harm the Whites.

If memory serves, all of my energy posts have been on solar power and insulation. Unless you're in the oil or coal business, I'm not sure there's anything to dislike about them. Most simply describe the huge financial advantages to going green.

Was not disagreeing with you just pointing out that they are ugly, spoil a beautiful view and are out of place

[Brinks]

I'm glad NH said no to Northern pass... we don't need more tall ugly power lines in our state..