Get involved: Moultonborough town meeting Saturday March 13th, 209

[breathe easy]

I know it seems far away, but town meeting is only 10 weeks away. I thought this would be a good place to discuss warrant articles and budgets and encourage attendance. Please try to plan your work schedules and plans to allow you to attend. It would be great to break attendance records. Last year only 300 or so people attended. Not even 10% of registered voters.

[Greene's Basin Girl]

Originally Posted by breathe easy

I know it seems far away, but town meeting is only 10 weeks away. I thought this would be a good place to discuss warrant articles and budgets and encourage attendance. Please try to plan your work schedules and plans to allow you to attend. It would be great to break attendance records. Last year only 300 or so people attended. Not even 10% of registered voters.

I was hoping the voting would change from a town meeting, but there weren't enough votes. I realize that residents like the town meeting beause that is the way it has alway's been done. I live in Moultonborough year round, but am often in Florida when the meeting is held. Probably most would say "change your vacation!". I just think I should be able to vote absentee if I am away. You can't do that when the voting is done at a town meeting. Also you said 300 people came last year. What does that say about town meeting? Many people also work on Saturday's so their vote is lost.

[SAMIAM]

Worth watching, GBGirl. In Meredith recently, town employees were angry because selectrmen asked them to forgo their cost of living raise due to the bad economy so they stacked the town meeting with family and friends and voted themselves a raise at taxpayers expense.

[LIforrelaxin]

There is a lot of tradition tied up in having town meetings. Tradition is hard to change. While the traditionally Town meeting was a good idea 100 years ago. The Practicality of it is greatly diminished in this day and age. Where do they hold the Moultonborough Town meeting? Is the Venue even big enough to hold a large quantity of the voting population?

I have only lived in on place where I felt the Town Meeting was still a good idea. The town had a registered Voter Population of less then 1000 and a gymnasium to hold the town meeting in where the entire Voter Population could show up. But in Most places this is not practical.

As for absentee voting, as GBgirl brought up. I don't think that is a reason to break the tradition of town meetings. Absentee voting has always been the easy way out for a lot of people so they don't have to show up on voting day. Please don't take that personally, if you are legitimately out of the area, obviously this is a advantageous thing, that I wouldn't deny you.

However having a place large enough to hold a true town meeting is a reason to over turn tradition. If I was a full time resident, that is the question I would be asking, in trying to get the town to move away from the town meeting style.

[EllyPoinster]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Worth watching, GBGirl. In Meredith recently, town employees were angry because selectrmen asked them to forgo their cost of living raise due to the bad economy so they stacked the town meeting with family and friends and voted themselves a raise at taxpayers expense.

Well, good for them. To me, it just seems unfair to ask a town employee to give up a negotiated raise so that taxpayers, on an individual basis, can save a small fraction of that amount. The employee gets hurt way more than the taxpayer would. Besides, if the economy was instead roaring along, would the selectmen and taxpayers be offering the employees a bonus or would they insist that the contract be honored? I think we all know the answer to that question.

[breathe easy]

Originally Posted by EllyPoinster

Well, good for them. To me, it just seems unfair to ask a town employee to give up a negotiated raise so that taxpayers, on an individual basis, can save a small fraction of that amount. The employee gets hurt way more than the taxpayer would. Besides, if the economy was instead roaring along, would the selectmen and taxpayers be offering the employees a bonus or would they insist that the contract be honored? I think we all know the answer to that question.

I think you are missing the point. These "individual" taxpayers ( me included) did not get a raise and lost income so why should we pay for a town employee to get a raise?

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by EllyPoinster

Well, good for them. To me, it just seems unfair to ask a town employee to give up a negotiated raise so that taxpayers, on an individual basis, can save a small fraction of that amount. The employee gets hurt way more than the taxpayer would. Besides, if the economy was instead roaring along, would the selectmen and taxpayers be offering the employees a bonus or would they insist that the contract be honored? I think we all know the answer to that question.

Elly potentially you are a government employee with a comment like that. However the thing is why should town or gov't employees continue to get raises in bad economic times, when their employers, the Tax payers, or residents, are not....

It is a check and balance issue.... the reason so many government jobs, have over inflated salaries, is that somewhere along the line, the people stopped checking on the government. So even when the greater public is going through a depression they now keep on getting there raises like everything was bomming.

The checks and balances in this country are lost. People need to help bring them back. Getting involved is the only way to do that.

[Heaven]

Just curious, what government jobs have over inflated salaries? Could you list a few please? Particularity State of NH jobs? I'd appreciate it!

[SAMIAM]

Most gov jobs include a Cadillac health care plan dental, sick days, vacation days, paid holidays......none of which we get in the private sector. Oh, did I forget weekends off. Then, after struggling for 20 years or so, many retire in their 50's to another lifetime with 80% of their highest annual salary and free health care. The economy is in the toilet.....hardly a time to give anyone a raise.

[ARV]

As a Moultonborough resident, I will say that I am in favor of town meeting. Not because it is a "tradition", but because it gives the residents/tax payers a chance to go to a meeting in which the articles and warrents are discussed, ideas/comments/opinions are shared and residents/tax payers are informed on what we are voting on. In my opinion, this is a much better alternative to just going to the polls and circling in yes or no.

In our small town of Moultonborough (yes, we are a small town), we have more than adequate room in the auditorium of Moultonborough Academy!

I think this is an important "event" for the residents/tax payers of Moultonborough as everyone who lives here on a regular basis should be involved and have a say as to what is happening with our local government. I do hate to exclude the "summer folk", but IMHO, you don't spend the majority of your time here and should be involved in your own local government, not the location of your second home. I say this with the utmost respect for you all!

In close, thank you SAMIAM, for the reminder that Town Meeting will fast be approaching!

[Heaven]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Most gov jobs include a Cadillac health care plan dental, sick days, vacation days, paid holidays......none of which we get in the private sector. Oh, did I forget weekends off. Then, after struggling for 20 years or so, many retire in their 50's to another lifetime with 80% of their highest annual salary and free health care. The economy is in the toilet.....hardly a time to give anyone a raise.

Many private sector jobs have great salaries and great benefits.

[breathe easy]

Originally Posted by ARV

In close, thank you SAMIAM, for the reminder that Town Meeting will fast be approaching!

Actually it was me , but thanks anyway!

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Heaven

Just curious, what government jobs have over inflated salaries? Could you list a few please? Particularity State of NH jobs? I'd appreciate it!

If they are so crummy of jobs, why do so many people expend effort to help relatives get on the gravy train?

How many companies let you accrue major vacation and sick hours and then get a big bonus at retirement time. How many private sector jobs have the cushy retirement plan the State of NH has?

Sorry, but if the State job wages were so low, people wouldn't stay.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by EllyPoinster

Well, good for them. To me, it just seems unfair to ask a town employee to give up a negotiated raise so that taxpayers, on an individual basis, can save a small fraction of that amount. The employee gets hurt way more than the taxpayer would. Besides, if the economy was instead roaring along, would the selectmen and taxpayers be offering the employees a bonus or would they insist that the contract be honored? I think we all know the answer to that question.

You have got to be kidding me. You must be a government entitlement employee. Look at the economy. Do you realize how many people got laid off during the past 15-18 months?

My company suspended its 401k match program, no raises, etc. It's called adjusting to reduced revenues. The State is no different. Expecting the taxpayer to just suck it up will not get you any support from the public I can assure you of that. The money for raises when the state is bleeding for money does not just come out of thin air.

[tis]

Originally Posted by ARV

As a Moultonborough resident, I will say that I am in favor of town meeting. Not because it is a "tradition", but because it gives the residents/tax payers a chance to go to a meeting in which the articles and warrents are discussed, ideas/comments/opinions are shared and residents/tax payers are informed on what we are voting on. In my opinion, this is a much better alternative to just going to the polls and circling in yes or no.

In our small town of Moultonborough (yes, we are a small town), we have more than adequate room in the auditorium of Moultonborough Academy!

I think this is an important "event" for the residents/tax payers of Moultonborough as everyone who lives here on a regular basis should be involved and have a say as to what is happening with our local government. I do hate to exclude the "summer folk", but IMHO, you don't spend the majority of your time here and should be involved in your own local government, not the location of your second home. I say this with the utmost respect for you all!

In close, thank you SAMIAM, for the reminder that Town Meeting will fast be approaching!

But SB2 towns still have their "town meeting". It's just not called that. No, they don't vote there but they can discuss and amend articles. The problem most towns have I think, is that they are not very well attended. But a real town meeting is not that well attended and not a very big percentage votes.
I still think SB2 is better just because so many more people vote. It is just too bad so many are so ill informed and don't take the time to better know what they are voting for.

As far a working for private business vs government, government just demands more taxes, businesses can't necessarily make that much more money to pay for the cadillac pay and benefits. The question is how much more can the taxpayer be squeezed?

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by breathe easy

I know it seems far away, but town meeting is only 10 weeks away. I thought this would be a good place to discuss warrant articles and budgets and encourage attendance. Please try to plan your work schedules and plans to allow you to attend. It would be great to break attendance records. Last year only 300 or so people attended. Not even 10% of registered voters.

Realize that at a town meeting, you are voting in a "true" democratic vote. Now go read our constitution and you will see that nowhere does the public-at-large vote in such a manner. In fact, the founding fathers painstakingly wrote the constitution to prevent mob rule.

At many of the Town meetings I have attended, mob rule is precisely what has happened. I could give a laundry list of examples.

I personally think the small town governments should be abolished and go to county level of government. More economy of scale and remove the major overhead of the additional layer of government employees.

Using a county level of government, you typically (not always) have individuals with formal training in public policy, accounting, etc. Unfortunately in many of these small towns, the boards are made up of business owners with an agenda rather than long-term, forward thinking.

[ARV]

Breathe Easy - I am SO sorry for not giving proper credit!!! Thank you!!!!!

[breathe easy]

Originally Posted by ARV

Breathe Easy - I am SO sorry for not giving proper credit!!! Thank you!!!!!

No worries!

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by tis

But SB2 towns still have their "town meeting". It's just not called that. No, they don't vote there but they can discuss and amend articles. The problem most towns have I think, is that they are not very well attended. But a real town meeting is not that well attended and not a very big percentage votes.
I still think SB2 is better just because so many more people vote. It is just too bad so many are so ill informed and don't take the time to better know what they are voting for.

As far a working for private business vs government, government just demands more taxes, businesses can't necessarily make that much more money to pay for the cadillac pay and benefits. The question is how much more can the taxpayer be squeezed?

How does one get an absentee ballot for an SB2 Deliberative Session?

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

How does one get an absentee ballot for an SB2 Deliberative Session?

You don't get the absentee ballot for the Deliberative Session - you get it for voting.

Warrant articles are presented, moved, seconded, and voted on at the Deliberative Session. They may also be amended. Any voting on the Warrant articles, even if they are amended, are only on the WORDING of the articles. The actual voting is in March.

Contact your town clerk for an absentee ballot.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

You don't get the absentee ballot for the Deliberative Session - you get it for voting.

Warrant articles are presented, moved, seconded, and voted on at the Deliberative Session. They may also be amended. Any voting on the Warrant articles, even if they are amended, are only on the WORDING of the articles. The actual voting is in March.

Contact your town clerk for an absentee ballot.

If all the Warrant Articles are presented, etc.and decisions made at a deliberative session, this sounds like a town meeting. I really don't understand why if I can't have an absentee ballot for a deliberative session how it's any better than a town meeting. Do you see what I mean?

[fatlazyless]

Deliberative session is more like a legislative workshop done by voters at an open, public meeting, and the final vote is held one week later on Tuesday election day, 7am-7pm, by private, paper ballot. Typically, a NH town meeting starts at 7pm and the meeting gets to the actual show-of-hands vote at 11:22pm, on the first Tuesday night in March.

End result example: Gilford, a SB-2 town gets by with their older and medium-size police station, while Meredith, a town-meeting town has the largest, small town police station on the planet in world history. And, both Gilford and Meredith police departments have recently joined labor unions for labor-pay, bargaining representation verses their town selectboards.

Friendly suggestion: go get a job working for the town......you cannot beat them, so you might as well join them!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Heaven

Many private sector jobs have great salaries and great benefits.

1) That wouldn't have been an argument in 1970: Back then, the jobs were called "Civil Service", and few would seek those jobs. Today, we have Hackarama, with relatives "greasing the skids" to get their relatives into Government employment.

2) Can the average private sector worker receive a six-figure salary, a $455,000 lump-sum retirement—in addition to the usual pension—in addition to entering a D.R.O.P. program—prior to retirement?

[Boater]

Originally Posted by Heaven

Just curious, what government jobs have over inflated salaries? Could you list a few please? Particularity State of NH jobs? I'd appreciate it!

Heaven, I don't have access to NH figures but here is some staggering information on federal employee salaries that is representative of the problem across the board.

Sit down before you read these quotes:

The trend to six-figure salaries is occurring throughout the federal government, in agencies big and small, high-tech and low-tech.

The growth in six-figure salaries has pushed the average federal worker's pay to $71,206, compared with $40,331 in the private sector.

Many top civil servants are prohibited from making more than an agency's leader. But if Congress lifts the boss' salary, others get raises, too. When the Federal Aviation Administration chief's salary rose, nearly 1,700 employees' had their salaries lifted above $170,000, too.

When the recession started, the Transportation Department had only one person earning a salary of $170,000 or more. Eighteen months later, 1,690 employees had salaries above $170,000.

Defense Department civilian employees earning $150,000 or more increased from 1,868 in December 2007 to 10,100 in June 2009, the most recent figure available.

Federal employees making salaries of $100,000 or more jumped from 14% to 19% of civil servants during the recession's first 18 months — and that's before overtime pay and bonuses are counted.

All these quotes are from this USA Today article.

While millions of taxpayers have lost their jobs and millions more have received deep cuts in pay and benefits the good times are rolling for public employees. There seems to be no end to the raises, benefits and entitlements.

To do this while so many taxpayers are suffering is obscene and immoral.

[EllyPoinster]

Originally Posted by breathe easy

I think you are missing the point. These "individual" taxpayers ( me included) did not get a raise and lost income so why should we pay for a town employee to get a raise?

Maybe you are missing my point: since there are way more taxpayers than town employees, I don't think it is fair to ask an employee to give up dollars so a taxpayer can save pennies. Find a way to spread the burden evenly. Like maybe delaying the raise rather than eliminating it?

Elly potentially you are a government employee with a comment like that. However the thing is why should town or gov't employees continue to get raises in bad economic times, when their employers, the Tax payers, or residents, are not....

No, except for military service, I have never been a government employee. I am, however, a taxpayer - in two NH towns. Oh - and due to the terrible economy, I'm unemployed right now too. Just an average Joe with an acute sense of fairness.

[breathe easy]

Originally Posted by EllyPoinster

No, except for military service, I have never been a government employee. I am, however, a taxpayer - in two NH towns. Oh - and due to the terrible economy, I'm unemployed right now too. Just an average Joe with an acute sense of fairness.

Fairness? I don't care if it's just a few pennies in tax dollars, why should I subsidize a public employees raise when I don't get one and along with many others have less income? And what about the many seniors who are taxpayers that won't get a social security cost of living increase. It's unconscionable and grossly unfair that people on fixed incomes should be asked to pay " just a few more pennies" out of fairness. It's sure not fair to us.

[Heaven]

I didn't mean to start what could be a heated argument. I wasn't responding to the comment about raises this year, either. I was responding to the general view that government employees (and let's talk state and local, I don't know anything about Federal) have a "cushy ride" and I simply don't believe that is true, generally, on the average. I make less than 40k with a masters degree in an engineering field, so 40k plus my 12k health, plus someday a pension (BTW, I will not collect any Social Security on the earnings from public sector work, so please keep that in mind). Just on the face of it, someone in a similar position to mine in the private sector is making in the 60's with a health package that is decent if not "Cadillac", earnings going toward SS retirement, and also a 401k matching plan or similar.
I just don't see that huge a cushy difference. And yes, there is 10+% unemployment, which means that 8 or 9 people out of 10 are still working, even if tightening up a bit. Public sector jobs get cut or go unfilled also, it is not immune.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

If all the Warrant Articles are presented, etc.and decisions made at a deliberative session, this sounds like a town meeting. I really don't understand why if I can't have an absentee ballot for a deliberative session how it's any better than a town meeting. Do you see what I mean?

I understand what you mean - it is confusing - but.... that is because you're not VOTING on the articles YET... that is in March.

The Warrant articles are basically presented and discussed - lots of hot air, not a lot of action (usually)... They are not PASSED OR DEFEATED at the Deliberative Session - that is done on voting day only. Again, it's only about the wording of the articles and the information behind them.

For example, there might be a petition warrant article for a new rescue vehicle for the fire department. The moderator reads the article, someone from the Board of Selectmen or Budget Committee moves and seconds the article. It is then discussed - a department head or concerned citizen will yammer on about the justification for the request. Once all questions/comments have been satisfied from the floor, the moderator will close discussion. A member of the Board of Selectmen or Budget Committee will move and second the article to be restricted for further consideration (meaning no schmoe can come in at the 11th hour and change the article -can you imagine the headache that would be cause if articles weren't restricted for further consideration?! Yikes!) then the meeting moves into the next article, and so on. NO VOTE IS TAKEN on the article....

Technically speaking, the moderator does not adjourn the meeting (the deliberative session) but RECESSES it until voting day!

Now, in the case where someone comes in and says "I want to amend this article to be zero dollars" or "I want to add some words to this article" or whatever - and someone seconds the AMENDMENT - THEN... and only then... is a vote taken on the amendment. The ARTICLE itself still is NOT voted on - just the wording.

All this is done in accordance with Roberts Rules of Order (if you're not familiar with that process, it the same process used by Parliament - more info on that is HERE.)

Again - the final voting (approval or denial) of the articles isn't done until the voting day - that's when you can use your absentee ballot. The argument about what's "great" about SB-2 is that people who can't make the Deliberative Session will still have a voice on voting day. (To which I say - if you can't make Deliberative Session, how are you making an informed decision on what you're voting on? - I am NOT a fan of SB-2!)

Hope that makes sense....


PS
Absentee ballots aren't printed until AFTER the deliberative session because of any changes that may be made on the articles presented!

[Pineedles]

Sorry for the off topic remark as I have been very interested in this thread, but I must comment on a remark by EllyPoinster that he served in the Military.

#1 Thank you for your service.

#2 It's too bad we don't pay one of the federal government's largest group of employees what the rest of gov't workers get who really deserve better.

Who? The Men & Women of the Armed Services.

And now back to the debate as to whether we have a Democratic or Republic govenment in Moultonborough.

[breathe easy]

The NH Department of Revenue Adminstration puts out a "Technical Assistance" document that explains SB2 quite clearly.
I actually did not intend this to be an SB2 debate, but I realize ( now) that many on the forum live in SB2 towns and or school districts. It's important to note that the "second session" is actually ballot day and voters can vote either in person in the privacy of the ballot box or by absentee ballot on all warrant articles.

http://www.nh.gov/revenue/munc_prop/...assistance.doc

"What is the official ballot referenda?
It is a form of town meeting that has two sessions. The first session (deliberative session) is for explanation, discussion, debate and amendments to the proposed operating budget and warrant articles. The second session (voting session) allows voters to cast their votes for local elections, zoning articles and all warrant articles

How will the meeting change? Can opinions still be voiced?
There are a few significant changes that occur. First is the creation of a second session specifically for voting. The deliberative session (first session) is similar to the traditional town meeting but is held earlier. During this meeting, all articles can be explained, discussed, debated and amended. The articles as presented or amended will be placed on the official ballot and voted on at the second session. Most SB2 municipalities hold their first session in late January to early February and voting in March (second session). See our timelines for the specific dates this year. Another change is the procedure for adopting the budget. The article proposes an operating budget and a default budget (should the proposed operating budget fail). Special and individual warrant articles are separate from the operating budget as prescribed by RSA 40:13, IX. A hearing on the entire budget and default budget must be held prior to posting the warrant and budget in accordance with RSA 40:13, II-a through II-d."

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Heaven

I make less than 40k with a masters degree in an engineering field.

Are you an actual engineer with an engineering degree or do you have a non-engineering degree and work in the "field"?

Something doesn't add-up. Are you a new grad?

[Greene's Basin Girl]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

I understand what you mean - it is confusing - but.... that is because you're not VOTING on the articles YET... that is in March.

The Warrant articles are basically presented and discussed - lots of hot air, not a lot of action (usually)... They are not PASSED OR DEFEATED at the Deliberative Session - that is done on voting day only. Again, it's only about the wording of the articles and the information behind them.

For example, there might be a petition warrant article for a new rescue vehicle for the fire department. The moderator reads the article, someone from the Board of Selectmen or Budget Committee moves and seconds the article. It is then discussed - a department head or concerned citizen will yammer on about the justification for the request. Once all questions/comments have been satisfied from the floor, the moderator will close discussion. A member of the Board of Selectmen or Budget Committee will move and second the article to be restricted for further consideration (meaning no schmoe can come in at the 11th hour and change the article -can you imagine the headache that would be cause if articles weren't restricted for further consideration?! Yikes!) then the meeting moves into the next article, and so on. NO VOTE IS TAKEN on the article....

Technically speaking, the moderator does not adjourn the meeting (the deliberative session) but RECESSES it until voting day!

Now, in the case where someone comes in and says "I want to amend this article to be zero dollars" or "I want to add some words to this article" or whatever - and someone seconds the AMENDMENT - THEN... and only then... is a vote taken on the amendment. The ARTICLE itself still is NOT voted on - just the wording.

All this is done in accordance with Roberts Rules of Order (if you're not familiar with that process, it the same process used by Parliament - more info on that is HERE.)

Again - the final voting (approval or denial) of the articles isn't done until the voting day - that's when you can use your absentee ballot. The argument about what's "great" about SB-2 is that people who can't make the Deliberative Session will still have a voice on voting day. (To which I say - if you can't make Deliberative Session, how are you making an informed decision on what you're voting on? - I am NOT a fan of SB-2!)

Hope that makes sense....


PS
Absentee ballots aren't printed until AFTER the deliberative session because of any changes that may be made on the articles presented!

I think the warrants and articles should be put in the newspaper, such as the Meredith News, before any town meeting or an SB-2 vote. I have been to many town meetings where I was so confused that I didn't vote. There all also many people that just want to hear themselves talk. I get so tired of hearing the same people blow smoke. Many people just want to be front and center and hear themselves talk. I have better things to to do then waste my time listening to them. If we had SB-2 I could vote without wasting my time listening to people talk in circles. It's time to break tradition!

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

I understand what you mean - it is confusing - but.... that is because you're not VOTING on the articles YET... that is in March.

The Warrant articles are basically presented and discussed - lots of hot air, not a lot of action (usually)... They are not PASSED OR DEFEATED at the Deliberative Session - that is done on voting day only. Again, it's only about the wording of the articles and the information behind them.

For example, there might be a petition warrant article for a new rescue vehicle for the fire department. The moderator reads the article, someone from the Board of Selectmen or Budget Committee moves and seconds the article. It is then discussed - a department head or concerned citizen will yammer on about the justification for the request. Once all questions/comments have been satisfied from the floor, the moderator will close discussion. A member of the Board of Selectmen or Budget Committee will move and second the article to be restricted for further consideration (meaning no schmoe can come in at the 11th hour and change the article -can you imagine the headache that would be cause if articles weren't restricted for further consideration?! Yikes!) then the meeting moves into the next article, and so on. NO VOTE IS TAKEN on the article....

Technically speaking, the moderator does not adjourn the meeting (the deliberative session) but RECESSES it until voting day!

Now, in the case where someone comes in and says "I want to amend this article to be zero dollars" or "I want to add some words to this article" or whatever - and someone seconds the AMENDMENT - THEN... and only then... is a vote taken on the amendment. The ARTICLE itself still is NOT voted on - just the wording.

All this is done in accordance with Roberts Rules of Order (if you're not familiar with that process, it the same process used by Parliament - more info on that is HERE.)

Again - the final voting (approval or denial) of the articles isn't done until the voting day - that's when you can use your absentee ballot. The argument about what's "great" about SB-2 is that people who can't make the Deliberative Session will still have a voice on voting day. (To which I say - if you can't make Deliberative Session, how are you making an informed decision on what you're voting on? - I am NOT a fan of SB-2!)

Hope that makes sense....


PS
Absentee ballots aren't printed until AFTER the deliberative session because of any changes that may be made on the articles presented!

If you can only change the wording at a Deliberative Session BUT you can change a dollar amount, this is the same as a Town Meeting and I want to be able to vote on it. I think I should have an absentee ballot if something as important as changing a large dollarr amount is concerned. I don't think you understand my point.

[Heaven]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

Are you an actual engineer with an engineering degree or do you have a non-engineering degree and work in the "field"?

Something doesn't add-up. Are you a new grad?

I suggest you go on to a state job board and look at the qualification "wish list"" for advertised positions and check out the salary ranges, and compare to what you see in private industry.

[lawn psycho]

Heaven, you did not answer my question. Do you have an engineering degree?

I am a professional engineer and know the pay ranges. Key word, RANGE. Sumpin' don't add up....

[EllyPoinster]

Originally Posted by breathe easy

Fairness? I don't care if it's just a few pennies in tax dollars, why should I subsidize a public employees raise when I don't get one and along with many others have less income? And what about the many seniors who are taxpayers that won't get a social security cost of living increase. It's unconscionable and grossly unfair that people on fixed incomes should be asked to pay " just a few more pennies" out of fairness. It's sure not fair to us.

Oh, I see. It's only what's fair to YOU that counts. And by the way, there was no social security cost of living increase because the cost of living, as measured, went down. How's that not fair?

[wifi]

Its sort of like when a large company, of say 10,000 workers needs to lay off 1,000, but instead takes some of the wages from the 9,000 and pays the 1,000 and keeps enough itself to make up its payroll reduction.

The company is happy, they have met their financial goals, everyone is employed.... is it fair? Depends on if you are one of the 1,000 or the 9,000.

There is a political science name for this, but I can't put my finger on it at the moment

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Green's Basin Girl

I think the warrants and articles should be put in the newspaper, such as the Meredith News, before any town meeting or an SB-2 vote. I have been to many town meetings where I was so confused that I didn't vote. There all also many people that just want to hear themselves talk. I get so tired of hearing the same people blow smoke. Many people just want to be front and center and hear themselves talk. I have better things to to do then waste my time listening to them. If we had SB-2 I could vote without wasting my time listening to people talk in circles. It's time to break tradition!

They are printed in the local papers and they have to be posted in a public place, such as the town hall or post office.

Be careful what you wish for with SB-2. I thought it was a good idea at first, too. I have no doubt that people are voting who have no idea what they're really voting for - they get confused by the wording of the articles. Warrant articles should NOT be difficult for the lay-person to understand. I'm with you about wind-bags at some of the meetings - I cringe when some people step up to the mic to speak... but that's part of the process... I also see some people come up with excellent points or questions. By the way - the same wind-bags will be at the Deliberative Session who were at the town meetings - that doesn't change at all. My problem with the Deliberative Session is that out of a town of 4,000+, we're lucky to have 40 voters show up for the event. The amount of apathy people have about voting is appalling...

@Sue-Doe-Nym:

f you can only change the wording at a Deliberative Session BUT you can change a dollar amount, this is the same as a Town Meeting and I want to be able to vote on it. I think I should have an absentee ballot if something as important as changing a large dollarr amount is concerned. I don't think you understand my point.

I do get your point but really... any changes - wording or money - are made at the time of the meeting only - there's no way a ballot could be written that could incorporate ALL of the possible changes that you might get in a meeting. Simply put - there's no way to predict what might happen at a Deliberative Session.

Remember - the money isn't being approved to be raised (set aside by tax payers per the voting outcomes) - only the final amount to be requested is being voted on at the Deliberative Session. The money isn't approved to be raised UNTIL voting day. The articles presented to the voters on voting day would be the ones that are on your absentee ballot. I think you're confusing the approval of the funds to be raised with the request for the amount of funds that is being discussed at the Deliberative Session.

Example - the Fire Dept. wants a new engine and is asking voters to approve $600,000. At the Deliberative Session in February, Joe Voter amends the request (Warrant article) to say $400,000 and Jane Voter seconds the amendment. The voters present at the Deliberative session are polled by the moderator and counted by the Keepers of the Checklist to approve the amendment. For the sake of this example, let's say that the amendment passes by a favorable vote. So, when the voters meet AGAIN in March, they will then vote to raise the $400,000 or not, based on the changes from the Deliberative Session that Joe Voter made and those present agreed on... See, they didn't actually say they were going to set the money aside at the Deliberative Session - they only amended the article to be different than what was presented.

One of the "bonuses" about SB-2 is that when things are amended - whether it's wording or dollar amounts - the time between the Deliberative Session and the actual voting of the articles later is supposed to give people time to review the changes, write editorials and newspaper articles, etc. about the proposed Warrants, and for the printing of the absentee ballots.

Hope that makes sense. Maybe talking with your town clerk will help shed light on the issue for you, too. I've found town clerks to be great resources...

[breathe easy]

Originally Posted by EllyPoinster

Oh, I see. It's only what's fair to YOU that counts. And by the way, there was no social security cost of living increase because the cost of living, as measured, went down. How's that not fair?

Because if the cost of living "as measured" went down , why then should town employees get a cost of living raise?

[TomC]

they're talking about the lakes region over at the "Death, Taxes, and Life ain't Fair" forum..

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by breathe easy

Because if the cost of living "as measured" went down , why then should town employees get a cost of living raise?

As I really want to know the this answer to this! I'm self employed and this economy has not helped with my "cost of living raise". I'm making less, but have to pay more in taxes to support town employees for a cost of living raise even though "as measured" the cost of living went down?
I really want to hear the answer to this question, but have my doubts I will.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by wifi

Its sort of like when a large company, of say 10,000 workers needs to lay off 1,000, but instead takes some of the wages from the 9,000 and pays the 1,000 and keeps enough itself to make up its payroll reduction.

The company is happy, they have met their financial goals, everyone is employed.... is it fair? Depends on if you are one of the 1,000 or the 9,000.

There is a political science name for this, but I can't put my finger on it at the moment

This analogy is not as easy as one would think. Laying people off only to re-hire them is expensive.

As someone who works in the voltatile technology fields, sometimes carrying overheard in people count during the troughs pays you back during the peaks. It's a fine line to walk.

However, if you were to poll those 10,000 workers (non-union) I'll bet you'd find that a majority would take lower pay for a given period of time rather than having people walked out.

[Heaven]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

Heaven, you did not answer my question. Do you have an engineering degree?

I am a professional engineer and know the pay ranges. Key word, RANGE. Sumpin' don't add up....

Maybe this conversation should be put in its own thread,
I am not a "stamped" engineer, if that is your question. But I have qualifications, experience and education that would bring a salary in the 60's+ in the private sector if I were to choose to go that route, which I obviously don't (I have had the offers). I am not complaining about my compensation, there are other things important to me and they pick up what I perceive as the "slack", but I do get unhappy with the opinion that public sector employees are on the "gravy train" and are not worth our compensation (in general, as a group). I do think the compensation packages have changed over the last 5 or 10 years and much of what is seen as "outrageous compensations" are the tail end of contracts made long ago. As to the cost of living raises, one year forgone isn't going to send anyone onto skid row, but please try to keep in mind that the cost of living raises never are as much as the cost of living index when it goes UP, and there are no bonuses or merit raises, ever, as is typical in the private sector.

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by gtagrip

As I really want to know the this answer to this! I'm self employed and this economy has not helped with my "cost of living raise". I'm making less, but have to pay more in taxes to support town employees for a cost of living raise even though "as measured" the cost of living went down?
I really want to hear the answer to this question, but have my doubts I will.

The silence is deafening!

[Pepper]

Originally Posted by TomC

they're talking about the lakes region over at the "Death, Taxes, and Life ain't Fair" forum..

OK, so I've just gotta know ...

WHAT is the "Death, Taxes and Life ain't Fair" forum???

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Pepper

OK, so I've just gotta know ...

WHAT is the "Death, Taxes and Life ain't Fair" forum???

Isn't that the one that Fatlazyless hosts?

[EllyPoinster]

Originally Posted by gtagrip

The silence is deafening!

OK - let me take a crack at this.

The specifics may vary from town to town but, in general, town employees do not receive cost of living increases, per se. The raises they receive are based upon a binding contract between the town and the bargaining unit that represents them. These contracts usually establish wages for two to three years following their effective date based upon a variety of factors including employee longevity, education level and the then-current economic conditions. For this reason, the raise schedule agreed between the town and the bargaining unit will lag (up or down in terms of their relationship to changing economic conditions) behind those of non-union workers whose employers are able to react more quickly. But while it may seem that town employees are receiving an undue benefit today, it is more than likely that their next contract will reflect today's economic reality and swing raises, if any, below those of non-union workers.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by EllyPoinster

OK - let me take a crack at this.

The specifics may vary from town to town but, in general, town employees do not receive cost of living increases, per se. The raises they receive are based upon a binding contract between the town and the bargaining unit that represents them. These contracts usually establish wages for two to three years following their effective date based upon a variety of factors including employee longevity, education level and the then-current economic conditions. For this reason, the raise schedule agreed between the town and the bargaining unit will lag (up or down in terms of their relationship to changing economic conditions) behind those of non-union workers whose employers are able to react more quickly. But while it may seem that town employees are receiving an undue benefit today, it is more than likely that their next contract will reflect today's economic reality and swing raises, if any, below those of non-union workers.

What I think is being referenced is a situation where there is no bargaining unit. The question then arises as to ehether or not should there be acrooss the board cola raises or nothing due to the official deckine in the cost of living.

[Lakegeezer]

Is there an online link to view the upcoming warrant articles to be voted on at the March meeting? This note thread is a good place to discuss the issues, but first, we need to know what they are.

[breathe easy]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

Is there an online link to view the upcoming warrant articles to be voted on at the March meeting? This note thread is a good place to discuss the issues, but first, we need to know what they are.

They will be posted on the town website if they follow past practice. The actual warrant won't be finalized until after February 2nd, the last day to file petitioned warrant articles. That will be followed by a public hearing.

In the meantime, the Planning Board put this out today.
http://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/Page...%20Hearing.pdf
Notice that if you want to actually see the proposed ordinances you need to go to Town Hall.
There really is no excuse to not post the actual ordinances on the town web, except maybe to avoid what happened last year when I believe 2 ordinances were voted down on ballot day.

[Lakegeezer]

There is a warrant proposal floating around town for signatures;


To see if the municipality will vote to establish an Expendable Trust Fund under the provisions of RSA 31:19-a, to be known as the Milfoil Control Trust Fund, for the purpose of ongoing management of milfoil in the town's waterways and to designate the Selectboard as agents to expend both principle and interest from this fund under rules and regulations to be promulgated. Further to raise and appropriate the sum of two hundred thousand dollars ($200,000) to be placed in this fund.

While 200K seems like a lot of money, this seems like a smart move!

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

There is a warrant proposal floating around town for signatures;


To see if the municipality will vote to establish an Expendable Trust Fund under the provisions of RSA 31:19-a, to be known as the Milfoil Control Trust Fund, for the purpose of ongoing management of milfoil in the town's waterways and to designate the Selectboard as agents to expend both principle and interest from this fund under rules and regulations to be promulgated. Further to raise and appropriate the sum of two hundred thousand dollars ($200,000) to be placed in this fund.

While 200K seems like a lot of money, this seems like a smart move!

We have a similar warrant article in Alton but it only raises $7,500. There was a LOT more money needed for this project but several of our local marinas and businesses pledged money at a selectmen's meeting in early December to help absorb the cost of this... kudos to them for that.

[breathe easy]

Town meeting is less than 4 weeks away.

http://www.moultonborough.org/Pages/...310ED-000F8513

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by breathe easy

Town meeting is less than 4 weeks away.

http://www.moultonborough.org/Pages/...310ED-000F8513

Don't forget there is the school annual meeting before the town meeting. Be sure and look at the very clever cartoon posted on http://www.moultonborospeaks.blogspot.com about the 2 warrant articles for the school. Seems to me these guys are on to something important and these articles should be defeated. Still checking things out but if the Advisory Budget Committee does not recommend there is a problem. I think in the 2 years this committee has been in existence this is the first time they have NOT recommended something.

The people pushing these costly warrant articles are the same ones I think who were behind the $8 million Rec Center 2 years ago. School District Superintendent Mike Lancor was in favor of the Rec Ctr and School Board Chair Laurie Whitley was a major player on the rec team. Once again, these people have big ideas on how to spend other peoples money.

[Argie's Wife]

"Rock on, Josie." bahahahahahahahahahahhahahaha

OMG... that was campy, at best. Sorry but I about sprayed the monitor with that one.... it was so lame it was funny.

So, they're not proposing the teachers' contract because it doesn't pay for performance? Well, duh. That's not how teachers' are paid anyhow - they're in a union. I can understand not recommending it because of difficult financial times but they have to understand NH has an Evergreen Clause that was brought into law back in 2008 - it means that they'll just stay on their current contract, whatever it was, which could mean they get the step increase anyhow.

[LIforrelaxin]

So I decided to look at the budget.... I find something interesting.....

The BoS budget projected in 2009 was 10,285,500 and the acutal expenditure was 8,675,459.... and now the purposed budget is 9,604,424.... I think they over shoot last year, and are still over shooting this year. Which how be it is not a totally bad thing.... but descrepancy in estimating and actuallity are what cause higher taxes

Now the general operation budget is off too.... they show spending almost 1M& less then they projected but yet are still asking for almost the same amount again....

In short, while I believe the Town is smart to plan for unforseen events by padding budgets. A 1M$ padding seems a bit excessive.........

[Mary-Ann Schmidt]

Thanks for the reminder. i will put it on my calendar and will plan to be there. Moultonborough has so much going for it. We have to be watchful in this economy to spend money wisely. Unlike in DC - our state and town cannot grease up the printing press. So it is important for as many residents as possible to make that date a priority and get to the meeting. Alot of work will be done there!

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

So I decided to look at the budget.... I find something interesting.....

The BoS budget projected in 2009 was 10,285,500 and the acutal expenditure was 8,675,459.... and now the purposed budget is 9,604,424.... I think they over shoot last year, and are still over shooting this year. Which how be it is not a totally bad thing.... but descrepancy in estimating and actuallity are what cause higher taxes

Now the general operation budget is off too.... they show spending almost 1M& less then they projected but yet are still asking for almost the same amount again....

In short, while I believe the Town is smart to plan for unforseen events by padding budgets. A 1M$ padding seems a bit excessive.........

It's the school budget that needs to be examined. They have lost several teachers but teachers costs still go up. There seem to be other areas where the school budget needs questioning.

[dpg]

Originally Posted by Heaven

Maybe this conversation should be put in its own thread,
I am not a "stamped" engineer, if that is your question. But I have qualifications, experience and education that would bring a salary in the 60's+ in the private sector if I were to choose to go that route, which I obviously don't (I have had the offers). I am not complaining about my compensation, there are other things important to me and they pick up what I perceive as the "slack", but I do get unhappy with the opinion that public sector employees are on the "gravy train" and are not worth our compensation (in general, as a group). I do think the compensation packages have changed over the last 5 or 10 years and much of what is seen as "outrageous compensations" are the tail end of contracts made long ago. As to the cost of living raises, one year forgone isn't going to send anyone onto skid row, but please try to keep in mind that the cost of living raises never are as much as the cost of living index when it goes UP, and there are no bonuses or merit raises, ever, as is typical in the private sector.

You answered the question without answering the question. So your a electrical engineer, mechanical engineer? You have a four year degree (at least) that reads "Bachelors degree in _______ Engineering?" I'm not an engineer but deal with them every day at work. Some make 40,000 and many make in the middle 80's a year. Here it depends on age, experience, schooling, etc.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by dpg

You answered the question without answering the question. So your a electrical engineer, mechanical engineer? You have a four year degree (at least) that reads "Bachelors degree in _______ Engineering?" I'm not an engineer but deal with them every day at work. Some make 40,000 and many make in the middle 80's a year. Here it depends on age, experience, schooling, etc.

Is this discussion relevant to this thread?

[breathe easy]

There is only one contested election in Moultonborough this year. Two of the three candidates have made public statements about their positions , reasons for running and what they hope to accomplish. Both are incumbents. Here are links to both:

http://moultonborospeaks.blogspot.co...candidate.html

http://moultonborospeaks.blogspot.co...candidate.html

[breathe easy]

And don't forget to get an absentee ballot if you can't get to the polls Tuesday. They can be turned in up until 5pm Monday at the town clerks office.

http://www.moultonborough.org/Pages/...absenteeballot

[Sue Doe-Nym]

All Moultonborough voters should make a special effort to attend the School and Town Meetings on Saturday the 13th, one week from today. If any Moultonborough voters care about unjustified increased spending be sure and be there for the 9:00 school meeting. The budget committee has recommended AGAINST the school union agreement and the school budget.

ALSO, Moultonborough taxpayers should be aware that Moultonborough is on tracik to become a DONOR TOWN again in 2012. Plan on your property taxes going up $1.25 per thousand.

[SAMIAM]

I would encourage anyone who cares about business and jobs to vote for Chris Maroun for planning board. The present board has and will do anything that it can to throw up roadblocks to any kind of building or development. They tried last year to change much of rt 25 to residential zoning, a move that angered and upset property owners and would prevent anyone from starting a new business on our only commercial road. They favor harsh restrictions for steep slope development (much of Moultonborough fits this category) and strict controls of business signs and lighting.
Their vision of a town with nothing but farm houses and church steeples would be wonderful thing if nobody needed to work.
Most of our young people leave right after school because there are so few opportunities here......they should be encouraging small busness instead dreaming up new restrictions.
Chris, on the other hand has a business in town, has been in the trenches, mentoring at the school, sponsoring and raising money for youth hockey and other sports and is on the board of United way.
Chris would be the only voice of reason for sensible growth and jobs.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

I would encourage anyone who cares about business and jobs to vote for Chris Maroun for planning board. The present board has and will do anything that it can to throw up roadblocks to any kind of building or development. They tried last year to change much of rt 25 to residential zoning, a move that angered and upset property owners and would prevent anyone from starting a new business on our only commercial road. They favor harsh restrictions for steep slope development (much of Moultonborough fits this category) and strict controls of business signs and lighting.
Their vision of a town with nothing but farm houses and church steeples would be wonderful thing if nobody needed to work.
Most of our young people leave right after school because there are so few opportunities here......they should be encouraging small busness instead dreaming up new restrictions.
Chris, on the other hand has a business in town, has been in the trenches, mentoring at the school, sponsoring and raising money for youth hockey and other sports and is on the board of United way.
Chris would be the only voice of reason for sensible growth and jobs.

Don't you love the candidate pushing for "work force housing" and at the same time making it difficult for business. What does "work force housing" prove if there are no jobs ???

[tis]

Isn't it funny, it seems like most towns are going through the same thing. Moultonboro sounds like Wolfeboro the way you describe it, Sam and Sue. I don't know how these people think.

[State]

Originally Posted by Heaven

Just curious, what government jobs have over inflated salaries? Could you list a few please? Particularity State of NH jobs? I'd appreciate it!

Well, it's been told to me that in Moultonborough 42 percent of the teachers at the Central School--where I have an inside source--are maxing out on the pay scale.

I mean one position some advisory board keeps wanting to cut, which frustrates my source since it's a needed position, stands out to me. The person in it makes a lot of money. That may be why it's always on the chopping block only to be snatched back. Teachers should not make more than $55-60k, period--regardless of the years accrued or number of sheets of diploma paper. Apparently, according to my inside source, this person makes a significant amount more than this. Like above $80+k.

I mean if that's the case we have teachers earning close to _double_ the median household income for the town. The school board has been too compliant with the demands of the NEA.

That's why in Moultonborough salaries should again be made publicly available in the back of the town report. It's called transparency. "Sunlight is the best disinfectant," wrote Justice Louis Brandeis.

Not bad for summers off and additional vacation weeks in January, February, and April. Boo-yah! And being done by approx. 4. Anyone who stays till 5 has no life or is in administration.

That's why I will be encouraging my children to work for the gubmit. Much better stability, better retirement, and less hardship.

And it is a fact, like Samiam says, that public sector people have much better non-salary compensation. Like a pension. Who gets those anymore?

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by State

Well, it's been told to me that in Moultonborough 42 percent of the teachers at the Central School--where I have an inside source--are maxing out on the pay scale.

I mean one position some advisory board keeps wanting to cut, which frustrates my source since it's a needed position, stands out to me. The person in it makes a lot of money. That may be why it's always on the chopping block only to be snatched back. Teachers should not make more than $55-60k, period--regardless of the years accrued or number of sheets of diploma paper. Apparently, according to my inside source, this person makes a significant amount more than this. Like above $80+k.

I mean if that's the case we have teachers earning close to _double_ the median household income for the town. The school board has been too compliant with the demands of the NEA.

That's why in Moultonborough salaries should again be made publicly available in the back of the town report. It's called transparency. "Sunlight is the best disinfectant," wrote Justice Louis Brandeis.

Not bad for summers off and additional vacation weeks in January, February, and April. Boo-yah! And being done by approx. 4. Anyone who stays till 5 has no life or is in administration.

That's why I will be encouraging my children to work for the gubmit. Much better stability, better retirement, and less hardship.

And it is a fact, like Samiam says, that public sector people have much better non-salary compensation. Like a pension. Who gets those anymore?

Teachers in NH have to be re-certified every three years, have a BA or better in education or the field they are teaching in (i.e. mathematics, biology, etc.). Recently, the State of NH raised the rates for certifying teachers as a way to raise revenue. Teachers in NH are required to be Highly Qualified Teachers (HQT's) per No Child Left Behind (NCLB).

Teachers are paid, in most districts, by a pay scale based on the number of years they have been teaching and their level of degree. A teacher with a BA in science teaching AP Biology might be making less than the health teacher with a Master's degree in Ed and who has been with a district for twenty years. It's the only field I can think of where you aren't necessarily paid by merit but by degree x longevity in the field.

If teachers are at the top of a pay scale in a district, that says some good things about your district. Your district is retaining veteran teachers who are experts in their field. That's exactly what you want to have happen. A good school district has a nice mix of veteran and new teachers.

Remember: those teacher at the top of the pay scale are making money because they have put a lot of time into their profession - both in the classroom (as students themselves) and on the job.

By the way - all salaries in the public sector are available to the public to view. If you call M'boro's SAU office, I'm sure you can get a breakdown of salaries. Chances are the information won't include names but you will get an idea of what's what...

And finally, a Google search led me to this: http://fc.sau45.org/Financial%20Info...hersalaryA.pdf

... it might be of interest to you....

[WINNOCTURN]

If teachers are at the top of a pay scale in a district, that says some good things about your district. Your district is retaining veteran teachers who are experts in their field. That's exactly what you want to have happen. A good school district has a nice mix of veteran and new teachers.

Remember: those teacher at the top of the pay scale are making money because they have put a lot of time into their profession - both in the classroom (as students themselves) and on the job.



And finally, a Google search led me to this: http://fc.sau45.org/Financial%20Info...hersalaryA.pdf

... it might be of interest to you....[/QUOTE]

Argie,

All this is meaningful information. But may be there is another reason that the Moultonboro Teachers top out over the rest of the State? How about guarantied yearly salary increases at levels way above what the Private sector can offer in todays economy. I can not see "negotiating" a 3.5% and higher contracts year after year, especially with a declining enrollment.

My company as lost 40% of its' core Business over the last 15 months. We have had to make drastic cuts in personnel, forgo raises and eliminate cost of living increases to hopefully ride out this recession. By doing this and other things we did show a very small profit for 2009.

We need to curb the out of control spending in Moultonboro!

[Argie's Wife]

I mean this sincerely (not being a joker or smartypants here...) but did you read the link I gave you? It does a good job of explaining why M'boro's teachers seem to get paid more. The same website where I got that link from also has the recommendations of the budget committee and the teachers' association. It explains things much better than I can...

Here in Alton we have two school districts, as our elementary school (grades pre-K through 8) and high school are considered different SAU's. The teachers' contracts in both districts came up to vote yesterday and failed. There was a 0% increase for the first year of the elementary school contract, a 1% increase for the second year, and a 2% increase for the third year. There were some changes to benefits and insurance but I felt that the contracts were very conservative considering the times we're living in. I think some folks felt that a three year contract was expansive, as we don't know what's to come in three years...

However, if a teachers' contract fails there's an 'evergreen clause' law now in NH which means that the contracts stay status quo from the previous year. Not sure if you were aware of that or not...

If there's anything I like seeing from this economy is that people are paying attention to what's going on in their towns and they're getting involved. We had a good turn out at the polls yesterday with just over 25% of the registered voters coming to the polls. I'd like to see this level of interest in the local economy when we're back to being 'fat and happy' again...

[Heaven]

State said:
And it is a fact, like Samiam says, that public sector people have much better non-salary compensation. Like a pension. Who gets those anymore?


Everyone that works until retirement gets a pension of a sort, it is called Social Security.

Many municipal workers who get that State pension do not receive a social security payment upon retirement although we pay into the social security system just like everyone else.

[wifi]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

.....However, if a teachers' contract fails there's an 'evergreen clause' law now in NH which means that the contracts stay status quo from the previous year. Not sure if you were aware of that or not....

In other words, contracts and salaries can only go up, what union will agree to their salaries going down.

A little research shows who signed this bill, and who backed it

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Be sure and read Citizen article, www.citizen.com, about the Meredith Town Meeting last night. Seems the Meredith citizens are so mad at the Sandwich people adding $800,000 to the school that Meredith people want the select board to study pulling out of the Inter-Lakes School District !! People felt that they had been hijacked by Sandwich.

It will be interesting to see if Moultonborough taxpayers will allow a similar situation. I have checked out the Budget Committee report and it makes a very strong case for turning down the teachers contract and the budget. Looks as though the teachers, the administration and the school board have no idea of economic conditions and simply think they can stick it to the taxpayers.

[Lakegeezer]

The Bizer lake level chart shows the level today is second highest it has been this time year since 1996. It is already at a level that is common for July and August. We normally get a few big rains in the Spring, so worry is not warranted by the lack of snow. It appears the low snow runoff has already been taken into account. The dam operators are pretty good - although mother nature has tricked them in the past.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Be sure and read Citizen article, www.citizen.com, about the Meredith Town Meeting last night. Seems the Meredith citizens are so mad at the Sandwich people adding $800,000 to the school that Meredith people want the select board to study pulling out of the Inter-Lakes School District !! People felt that they had been hijacked by Sandwich.

It will be interesting to see if Moultonborough taxpayers will allow a similar situation. I have checked out the Budget Committee report and it makes a very strong case for turning down the teachers contract and the budget. Looks as though the teachers, the administration and the school board have no idea of economic conditions and simply think they can stick it to the taxpayers.

Just wondering how a school district's final budget is decided?

Do the voters in Sandwich have the last say?

Can the voters in M'boro* amend the motions made by Sandwich?

*This should read "Meredith" - sorry!!!!

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

Just wondering how a school district's final budget is decided?

Do the voters in Sandwich have the last say?

Can the voters in M'boro amend the motions made by Sandwich?

Yes, the voters in Sandwich did have the last say and apparently hijacked the meeting according to many Meredith residents. The Sandwich people were mad at the Inter-Lakes board for planning to move the 6 students remaining in the 6th grade in Sandwich to Meredith and eliminating a teacher. The large contingent of Sandwich voters proceeded to add hundres of thousands of dollars back into the budget plus the teacher. In yesterdays Meredith News there is a fascinating letter to the editor submitted by a Mark Billings who makes some very interesting points. What really annoys the Meredith folks is that Meredith pays, according to Mr. Billings, 72.57% of the Inter-Lakes school budget, whereas Sandwich pays 13.56% and Center Harbor 13.87%.

The heading for Mr. Billings letter reads "Voter Apathy Will Bankrupt Us". It is this attitude that Moultonborough voters must avoid. As mentioned before, the Moultonborough budget committee has voted 4-1 AGAINST the new union agreement AND the proposed budget. The one dissenting vote was from the member of the budget committee who is also a school board member.

[wifi]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

Can the voters in M'boro amend the motions made by Sandwich?

As you might know, M'boro is it own school district, distinct from InterLakes.

[breathe easy]

The Moultonborough School district annual meeting precedes town meeting tomorrow ( Saturday) and will start at 9am. The only way to avoid the meeting being hijacked by special interests is to attend and vote. As observed during the school budget hearing last month, there are parents that will try to amend the school budget and put the sensible budget cuts back, and who knows what else?
What many in town don't seem to understand is that M'boro has many seniors and people on fixed incomes and literally, every dollar counts.
With student population declining in just 3 years from 674 to 604 how can anyone justify not reducing spending?

[twoplustwo]

Yes, the voters in Sandwich did have the last say and apparently hijacked the meeting according to many Meredith residents.


If the population of Sandwich can 'hijack' a meeting versus the population of the Town of Meredith, then a whole lot of the Town of Meredith sat on their collective rear ends and didn't bother to attend. According to the 2008 census, Sandwich has 1,316 residents to Meredith's 6,623. That's not hijacking, it's voting, which is their right. Any voter in Meredith who didn't show up to vote is getting what they deserve.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by wifi

As you might know, M'boro is it own school district, distinct from InterLakes.

Forgive me - I meant Meredith... (don't swat me... I admit I get the two names mixed up all the time for some silly reason...)

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by twoplustwo

Yes, the voters in Sandwich did have the last say and apparently hijacked the meeting according to many Meredith residents.


If the population of Sandwich can 'hijack' a meeting versus the population of the Town of Meredith, then a whole lot of the Town of Meredith sat on their collective rear ends and didn't bother to attend. According to the 2008 census, Sandwich has 1,316 residents to Meredith's 6,623. That's not hijacking, it's voting, which is their right. Any voter in Meredith who didn't show up to vote is getting what they deserve.

That's exactly the point, "voter apqthy" as described in the Billings letter to the editor. Too many Moultonborough voters might not come to the annual meetings and end up with larger budgets than are recommended.

[tis]

Voter apathy is a big problem. So is voter "ignorance". We all know it is very hard to understand what we are voting for sometimes, unless you have researched it before hand. For instance if it says to change (x) to 500 feet and you didn't go back to see what the old (x) was, how in the world can you know what you are voting for? The answer is you can't. In Wolfeboro, around 500-+ people out of 1500+- that voted, voted for a blank amendment. Did they think they were being funny or did they just quickly run through all the amendments?

[breathe easy]

Here is the blow by blow for the School and Town Meetings in Moultonborough earlier today.

http://moultonborospeaks.blogspot.co...esults_13.html

http://moultonborospeaks.blogspot.co...g-results.html

[phoenix]

thank you for posting this

[Pineedles]

I wonder what the outcome will be after the vote on stopping mosquito control will be? More Mosquitos this spring? More Equine encephalitus? More lyme disease? We'll see.

[fatlazyless]

According to the above link, about 7.5% of the Moultonborough electorate was present at the town meeting, and that number got reduced down to 5% after lunch was served and presumably 1/3 of the voters in attendance did not return.

This 7.5% Moultonborough attendance is higher than the 3% number for Meredith most likely because Moultonborough town meeting is held on a Saturday morning, while the Meredith town meeting is held on a Wednesday night from 7-pm to midnight.

For many New Hampshire town meetings, getting to control the vote is all about getting the voters to show up to have a vote. The only voters who show up to the 7-pm to midnight town meeting are those who have a strong interest in the vote. In Meredith, a number of expensive projects including the police station, fire station, community center, & million dollar football field were all passed with only a very small (5% or less) of the electorate present. For those who voted yes, getting their project built was a victory in small town politics.

Conversely, the same voting game played out against the Meredith core of voters who show up, when Sandwich rallied their voter-troops, filling the gym to capacity, and out-voting Meredith voters.

Meredith pays for 72% of Inter-Lakes SAU-3 schools. Center Harbor pays 14%. Sandwich pays 14%.

Probably, some of those who voted against Meredith SB-2 school or Meredith SB-2 town in March 2008, or March 2009, are now rethinking the SB-2 style of voting and would maybe vote for it in the future.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Pineedles

I wonder what the outcome will be after the vote on stopping mosquito control will be? More Mosquitos this spring? More Equine encephalitus? More lyme disease? We'll see.

It was only a monitoring program, never any actual spraying. Many people thought as you did that it actually involved control. Using the word control rather than monitor was a bad choice of words.

[Pineedles]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

It was only a monitoring program, never any actual spraying. Many people thought as you did that it actually involved control. Using the word control rather than monitor was a bad choice of words.

Thanks Sue Doe-Nym. BTW I love your name.

"$200,000 over the past four years to address a problem that does not exist in our part of the state."

$50K per year to count and test Mosquito's over the past 4 years? I certainly agree that they should cut that. Ya think they would have figured out they didn't have a problem the 2nd or even the 3rd year? Oh well, at least they stopped it before it became a 1/4 million dollars.

[breathe easy]

The Moultonborough Citizens Alliance posted the School District video on it's website:

http://moultonboroughcitizensallianc...er-2010-s.html

[breathe easy]

Here is the link to Moultonboro 2010 Town Meeting video
http://moultonboroughcitizensallianc...n-meeting.html