Fertilizing grass next to lake

[Jeanzb1]

We have observed three neighbors fertilizing their grass. Their properties are RIGHT SMACK on the lake. Isn't this against EPA regulations? I know that everyone with a screaming-green lawn is fertilizing their grass, but I believe this is unlawful and very bad for the lake. What can be done?

[RLW]

How right you are. What is more important, green grass (the more to mow) or our wonderful clear lakes????

[birchhaven]

are you sure it is fertilizer and not something else, like Lime?

[Just Sold]

This is an excerpt from the Shoreland Protection Act that answers your question.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...-B/483-B-9.htm

(a) Maintenance of a Waterfront Buffer.
(1) The waterfront buffer shall be those protected shorelands within 50 feet of the reference line. The purpose of this buffer shall be to protect the quality of public waters while allowing homeowner discretion with regard to water access, safety, viewscape maintenance, and lot design.
(2) Within the waterfront buffer all of the following prohibitions and limitations shall apply:
(A) No chemicals, including pesticides or herbicides of any kind shall be applied to ground, turf, or established vegetation except as allowed under special permit issued by the division of pesticide control under rules adopted by the pesticide control board under RSA 541-A, or fertilizers of any kind except those specified in RSA 483-B:9, II(d).
(B) Rocks and stumps and their root systems shall be left intact in the ground unless removal is specifically approved by the department, pursuant to RSA 482-A or RSA 483-B:11, II.
(C) No natural ground cover shall be removed except as necessary for a foot path to water as provided under RSA 483-B:9, V(a)(2)(D)(viii), cutting those portions that have grown over 3 feet in height for the purpose of providing a view, or as specifically approved by the department, pursuant to RSA 482-A or RSA 483-B.
(D) Starting from the northerly or easterly boundary of the property, and working along the shoreline, the waterfront buffer shall be divided into 50 by 50 foot segments. Within each segment a minimum combined tree and sapling score of at least 50 points shall be maintained. If for any reason there is insufficient area for a full segment, the number of points required to be maintained in that partial segment shall be proportional to that required of a full segment.

[Jeanzb1]

Well, let me put it this way. They all have screaming-green grass with few, if any, weeds. I have observed two of them out there with a Scotts spreader, and the other one was Tru-Green who left a flag on the property indicating that fertilizer had been applied.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Jeanzb1

We have observed three neighbors fertilizing their grass. Their properties are RIGHT SMACK on the lake. Isn't this against EPA regulations? I know that everyone with a screaming-green lawn is fertilizing their grass, but I believe this is unlawful and very bad for the lake. What can be done?

There are all types of natural organic fertilizer that do not harm the lake. Guano is one that comes to mind, though expensive, it is supposed to work very well. Before making any rush to judgement, confirm what your neighbors are using...

Dan

[Just Sold]

Any type of "Fertilizer" is not allowed but Limestone is OK within the 25' buffer.......

483-B:9 Minimum Shoreland Protection Standards. –
I. The standards in this section are designed to minimize shoreland disturbance so as to protect the public waters, while still accommodating reasonable levels of development in the protected shoreland. Development outside the protected shoreland shall conform to local zoning and local ordinances and shall not be subject to standards established in this chapter.
II. Within the protected shoreland the following restrictions shall apply:
(a) The establishment or expansion of salt storage yards, automobile junk yards, and solid or hazardous waste facilities shall be prohibited.
(b) Primary structures shall be set back behind the primary building line which is 50 feet from the reference line.
(c) A water dependent structure, meaning one which is a dock, wharf, pier, breakwater, or other similar structure, or any part thereof, built over, on, or in the waters of the state, shall be constructed only as approved by the department, pursuant to RSA 482-A.
(d) No fertilizer, except limestone, shall be applied to vegetation or soils located within 25 feet of the reference line of any public water. Low phosphate, slow release nitrogen fertilizer or limestone, may be used on areas beyond 25 feet from the reference line.

[LIforrelaxin]

What can you do? Well that is always a loaded question. But if you think you want to make a stink, you better make sure that your house is clean... and that you aren't violating anything, because battles with neighbors get ugly quick.,...

My suggestion, is talk with your neighbors to understand what they are doing... and then slide in information about what is and isn't allowed according to the shoreline Protection act.... I have had to do this with a couple neighbors, who as it turns out had no idea, and after talking with me, they looked into the issue, and have corrected their habits.

[lawn psycho]

*COUGH* *COUGH*

You are allowed to apply fertilizers as specified in RSA 483-B:9, II(d) down to the 25 ft reference line. Herbicides, etc are 50 ft.

If you look at university studies, fertilizers applied at or below standard application rates don't leach (with a few caveats). Simply said, measure your property and figure out how many sq ft the lawn is (deduct impervious surfaces, etc) and don't over apply. Follow the bag rates (as they will all give you 1 lb/N per 1000 sq ft or less).

That said, anyone who has grass down to the waters edge should consider putting in mulched shrub/perenial beds, etc. Looks better in most cases too. You can't clear but you can add vegetation.

[Lucky1]

Why would anyone with a home within the prohibitted areas want to use fertilizers??? My small home came with a sandy beach and grass. The grass is not that green cut lovely looking grass that looks like a golf course. It is full of weeds. clover, dandilions and bare spaces because all that is done to it is to have it cut. Sometimes I rake it a bit and have even added seed, but no way would I want to use fertilizer as I am lucky enough to own a home on our wonderful lake! If you have friends who own property on our wonderful lake that brings so much peace and joy to so many, and these same friends are using fertilizer near the water, the are not very bright. They are also breaking the law. I do not know what else to say which is rare for me! LOL

[nightrider]

How does the Shoreline Protection Act, or any other applicable law, apply to a tree that is clearly dead within a distance of 25 feet from the shore? Can it be cut down? Do the roots have to stay? Are there differences in the law according to the size of the tree? (ie. sapling, 12" dia., 36" dia., etc.)

[Just Sold]

Originally Posted by nightrider

How does the Shoreline Protection Act, or any other applicable law, apply to a tree that is clearly dead within a distance of 25 feet from the shore? Can it be cut down? Do the roots have to stay? Are there differences in the law according to the size of the tree? (ie. sapling, 12" dia., 36" dia., etc.)

There is a calculation within the Shoreland protection Act for the tree coverage. Even if you can cut a dead or live tree down you have to leave the stump. The stump and roots do hold the soils together even if it is dead.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Just Sold

There is a calculation within the Shoreland protection Act for the tree coverage. Even if you can cut a dead or live tree down you have to leave the stump. The stump and roots do hold the soils together even if it is dead.

Put a nice planting pot on the stump, get some flowers going and pretty soon things will look just fine.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

Why would anyone with a home within the prohibitted areas want to use fertilizers??? My small home came with a sandy beach and grass. The grass is not that green cut lovely looking grass that looks like a golf course. It is full of weeds. clover, dandilions and bare spaces because all that is done to it is to have it cut. Sometimes I rake it a bit and have even added seed, but no way would I want to use fertilizer as I am lucky enough to own a home on our wonderful lake!

Lucky, I have some bad news for you. Your home by its mere existence is a detriment to the lake. All the impervious surfaces such as the house, walk-ways, decks, etc are bad for the lake. Sandy man-made beach? Bad. Bare spots (read: denuded)? Also bad. Very few lake front lots don't have a direct slope towards the lake. Food for thought.

Although you may think just mowing is doing favors for the lake, that is not the case. Grass as nature intended was never meant to be mowed at the heights we do for lawns. Most of the cool season grasses in New England were introduced for forage of animals. Today the newer cultivars of Kentucky Blugrass like Midnight are better suited for lawns. If you seed and properly establish the grass with Kentucky Bluegrass you should not have to seed every year as KBG spreads. The fact that you get spots that die off every year is mother nature telling you that something is wrong

If you have bare spots in your "lawn" then you either have a soil problem or you have an improper climate (read: shade) to grow grass. You should consider a mulched bed of shrubs and perenials as an alternative, and perhaps some small trees if it fits into the landscape.

Grass is not some evil thing. Grass is a plant and with good soil can hold a lot of water which is good for both the grass as well as the environment.

I'm truly not trying to pick you apart but hopefully you and others can re-think what turf/soil management is all about. I think a better way to describe the issue is the improper use of fertilizer. Once people understand the nuances involved then the picture becomes clearer. If properly applied, applying fertilizer within the 25 ft buffer would be fine. The 25 ft buffer is nothing more than an attempt at an "idiot proof" zone.

Last fall I saw a guy with a leaf blower and cleaning the leaf litter right into the lake. There is phosphorus in those leaves. This is the tip of the ice-berg of things I see going on. It's easy to pick-on fertilizer but there is so much more too it. Plus, eutrophication is a natural process.

I am going to give some advice that applies to everyone.

First and foremost, GET-A-SOIL-TEST. Do not go any further without one....

If you don't do anything else to your lawn, get the pH and macronutrients right. If your pH is too high or too low then nutrient uptake is impaired and the grass plant will not thrive. Soil amendment (using either lime or gypsum) to adjust the chemistry is the key to everything. With good soil your lawn will thrive. With bad soil you have to put the lawn on life support and feed it repeatedly to keep it looking good. Sound familar to what happens?

Even without fertilizer, proper soil chemistry goes a long way to make grass grow, thicken, and increase water retention.

If I had my way, you would not be able to buy fertilizer without a lab soil test in the last 60 days. Not only would the soil test help educate homeowners to what their lawns need, but the results could include educational material. At the very least every bag of fertilizer should have the information about soil chemistry but then they would end up selling less fertlizer Also, packaging fertilizer at 0.5 lb N per 1000 sq ft instead of 0.7-1.0 lb N per 1000 sq ft would help as well. The problem is not fertilizer, the problem is the guy who has no idea the size of his lawn and just buys the biggest bag on the shelf and he's off to the races. Of course he's also screwing himself by causing too much top growth at the expense of the roots and a host of other issues including leaching potential.

Something I need to point out: DO NOT JUST APPLY LIME THINKING BECAUSE OF PINE TREES YOU WILL HAVE A LOW pH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!My co-worker asked for help with his lawn. His property is encircled by all pine trees. His pH was 7.2 (above optimum). That was the native soil without ever having applied lime and he's lived in the house for 20+ years. Bottomline: absent a soil test you just don't know!

His soil has a low Ca level and low CEC. He needed gypsum. Lime was the last thing his soil needed. He also now mulch mows instead of bagging. He was following the phos-free fad. His phosphrous level was 1 ppm. Um, that's really low..... And he was wondering why his lawn looked terrible A year later and we have his lawn well on its way to looking like a million bucks. It's going to take him probably 3 years to get there.

You need the soil test to know which type of lime you need. Don't just grab the cheapest bag. Based on the soil test you will need either calcitic or dolomitic lime. I recommend when buying lime to go to a nursery or better yet an Agway as they can help you. I use the Cal-Turf Pro or Mag-Turf Pro from Lesco/JD Landscape but the fast-acting calcitic lime from Agway is also good. However, brand doesn't really matter as much as knowing what's in the bag and reading the product label. Also, beware the marketing schmucks who throw around the "fast-acting" label. Hence why I say go to Agway or JD/Lesco as they can help you get the right product. Take your soil test with you. Big Box = clueless and will just spew the classic "common knowledge".

You can get a soil test from Lesco/JD landscape (drop in to get the sample bag), or from co-ops such as UNH, UMASS, or UMAINE.
I'll even do some of the work for you and give you the links:
http://extension.unh.edu/Agric/AGPDTS/SoilTest.htm
http://anlab.umesci.maine.edu
http://www.umass.edu/soiltest/

The only bad part about some of the testing labs is that the recommendations are not ideal but rather for "minimal input". A while back I inquired with the UMaine Soil Testing Lab about their recommended values and their feedback was the tests are, "to provide numbers for a minimal cost to the homeowner." Unfortunately this is like buying a Ferrari and then using cheap tires. Sure, you can do that but why not go for "optimum"? So, I strongly recommend a pH of 6.2 to 6.8 for your soil. The labs (all of them) list a pH as low as 5.5 as satisfactory. Obviously grass will grow in the soil but why not go for ideal when it's not that hard and lime is cheap? I digress....

If the test says you need 40 lbs of calcitic lime per 1000 sq ft then you need to apply at that rate. Just buying a bag or three of lime and throwing it down and calling it a day is a waste of time and money. It's not that hard to measure your lawn with a tape measure and you only have to do it one time.

The generic statement about 6 months for lime to work is BS as well. The correct answer is "it depends". Many factors such as existing soil chemistry, soil structure, temperature (ex: are you applying in April or November?) all play into the answer.

You can follow the recommendations from the labs and if your soil is really bad you will still see marked improvement. However if you want to go a step further take the time to either call the lab you use, JD/Lesco, Agway, etc and ask them about how to improve things further based on your soil tests. Just bear in mind that how landscapers do things are for profit which means ease of use, time-saving, generic to most lawns, etc.

It would be impossible for me to cover every soil test scenario. It's a tad more than just pH, Ca, and Mg but those are the starting points and get you 80% or more of they way to success. If you have a really low CEC and organic matter you are better off half-dosing your lawn with fertilizer. Keep mulch mowing and in the fall, mulch your leaves into the lawn, don't bag them. That's free organic matter you are working hard to just throw away.

So you know, I started as a clueless homeowner. I got the lawn bug and read every book I could get my hands on and then attended the online Penn State turf program. There is a lot more to soils and turf management than what you see in the aisles of the big box stores.

Why don't landscapers get soil tests and do all the fine tuning? Well, remember the post where someone wanted the local kid to undercut the professionals? Landscaping is cut-throat with a lot of guys who know nothing more than how to run a lawn mower and trimmer and bottom dwell when bidding. If I charge you more money for the soil test and my knowledge and try to convey to you in the 1-2 minutes I have to get your attention when selling my services, guess which guy you are going to go with? Plus, I would have to keep track of each lawn as to how much to apply (and some may not need anything = less revenue) so my logisitics would be chaotic. And now you know why Tru-Green and friends all feed everyone's lawn from the same tank on the truck Add in the guys doing it with no insurance and under the table and you see how this goes. So, landscapers put lawns on life support and over feed them as even if the pH is out of whack you can just over dose so at least some food gets into the plant and the rest leaches away. The soil will still suck but as long as the grass looks better the homeowner thinks the landscaper has some magical powers. It also keeps you coming back to them because as soon as they stop the feeding regimen your lawn looks sickly again.

If a landscaper ever wants to sell you on a lime application without a soil test you will get immediately know how clueless they are. I know the local Scott's Lawn Service my neighbor uses does it every fall and they have not tested his soil once. Ridiculus.

Let me also clear up one of my pet peeves. Nobody, and I mean nobody who lives on the lake has a "golf course" lawn. Golf courses have and use chemicals that are not legal to use on residential turf. They use mowers that you would never use on a residential lawn. They mow the greens and collars every 1-2 days. How do you think they get the greens so smooth? Sand.

Want your lawn to look like Camden Yards (best MLB field IMO) or Fenway? Don't even try, you will fail.......

The OP reminds me of my neighbor. She would probably have a calf if she saw my commerical spreader. As a joke I donned a tyvek painters suit and put on a respirator and filled my sprayer with water and went over my lawn. True story.

If I have made you think about soil chemistry instead of the name brand and attention grabbing labels on the bags I have done my part. Water smart fertilizer is the latest BS.

Have you had your soil tested?

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Jeanzb1

Well, let me put it this way. They all have screaming-green grass with few, if any, weeds. I have observed two of them out there with a Scotts spreader, and the other one was Tru-Green who left a flag on the property indicating that fertilizer had been applied.

I can't verify what you are saying either way but many companies won't even touch lakefront properties. Why? Liability. For fun, someone should call and ask if Tru-green does lake front homes and what precautions they use and knowledge of the law. I bet they know it. In fact, many landscaping companies don't do fertilizing because of the licensing requirements as you need a master applicator on staff and the insurance is way different than Mr Mow & Blow can afford.

Is your issue about fertilizer or do you have a beef with your neighbors? I ask as that can impact the focus of the lenses you are looking through.

[Jeanzb1]

Our "concern" is STRICTLY with water quality being affected by runoff.
We are located at the end of a shallow cove, and when the north wind blows, everything comes our way. But to answer your question, Lawn Psycho, we have only been here a few years and have never, ever met these individuals but can easily see their properties -- so we have no "beef" with them but, rather, water quality IF they are dumping fertilizers and pesticides on their lush lawns (which I would bet dollars to donuts they are!) But your suggestion to call Tru-Green and asking them about fertilizing lakefront properties is not a bad idea. Hmmmm.........

[SAMIAM]

Nightrider, we also had a diseased tree at the shoreline and we took it down (after taking pictures, just in case) We dug around the base a little so we could cut it at ground level and then covered it with mulch so it blended right in. No need to remove the roots since they will decompose over time.
I didn't bother going through any permit process because anyone could see it was dead and had the pictures to prove it.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Jeanzb1

Our "concern" is STRICTLY with water quality being affected by runoff...we...have never, ever met these individuals but can easily see their properties -- so we have no "beef" with them but, rather, water quality IF they are dumping fertilizers and pesticides on their lush lawns (which I would bet dollars to donuts they are!)

Same here. It would seem that observance of the 25-foot barrier would result in a different shade of green close to the water.

On the other hand, the owner wouldn't need the expense of Adirondack Chairs if every renter wants to sit on the lawn!

[Lucky1]

Some of it seemed almost to be protesting too much. I have a NATURAL SAND BEACH in a FLAT AREA on the lake side of my much loved but simple two bedroom ranch with a basement area that seems to be a little higher than the lake. If the lake were to rise VERY MUCH it would COME INTO MY HOUSE. I am told that once the water reached close to the bottom of the stairs to the deck? Not sure as it was before I purchased it back in the mid eighties.

I don't think in all the years I ever put but two or three handfuls of seed in the area on the back of my small home and none on the lake front side. Have done nothing in the last ten or fifteen years. Too old and the weeds win anyway. I don't see any clover or dandelions growing in the water. The grass is only cut EVERY OTHER WEEK so that should tell you something. In hot weather like last summer, there were times that it went THREE WEEKS. I plant flowers for fun and have no interest at all in the grass. No one will ever mistake my home for a mcmansion!

I also think that any chemicals might be able to get to the lake by flowing underneath the soil when it rains etc. I just don't think that people should be using fertilizers at all I guess. But that is just me and the law of course within so many feet. I would say anywhere. Water flows TO the lake and would carry any chemicals with it. We do get some heavy rainstorms.

The person who wrote is at the end of a cove and that is where water goes bad in the beginning as it does not have as much movement. I would bet my life on the fact that fertilizer is being used on lawns on the lake so no need to write pages to me!! I am not likely to think that those golf course like green lawns are just provided by God. They may be cut less often than every two of three days though

I have come to the lake since I was a child in the fifties. The water is much different than it was then in many areas so we should all be doing things to help preserve the water quality!!! Watch that boats do not have anything on the props etc when you bring them from other areas. Switch to kayaks!! Row row row your boat. Don't raft and dump in the water. The water flows around my home and moving water tends not to turn as fast. Still, all of us who love our wonderful lake have a horse in this race. Lets work together to help preserve it.

[lawn psycho]

Lucky, I suggest you read the post in full. Not sure where you think I was protesting anything. I used examples to give people some insight into things related to the lawn care industry. In fact, I even posted things I wish the industry would change.

That post is the building block of a good lawn. Kinda like the old saying, "you can lead a horse to water but not make him drink." Lime/gypsum are not fertilizer. You can apply them down to the waters edge and you can find NHDES documents even recommending soil amendment. Good soil helps mitigate issues with leaching and run-off.

I pretty much laid out how a homeowner should go about getting their soil chemistry corrected. Every lawn will benefit from proper soil amendment. It's very common to give people the recipe for a nice lawn and yet they dismiss it. So, so common. Ironic in that you proclaim you want to protect the lake but yet don't want to take the few minutes to read some information about soils. Nobody likes to be told they are part of the bigger picture (problem if you wish to call it that) but that's reality.

Having bare spots in your lawn is not good for the lake as that is where run-off occurs. Also, your lawn mowing frequency is influenced largely by soil temperature and moisture as much as it is by nutrient levels.

If you don't want to apply fertilizers makes no difference to me. However if you wish to improve your lawn and help the lake then good soil chemistry is best practices. What I take issue with is when people beat their chests like they are saints but yet unknowingly contribute to water quality issues. Where do you think your septic water goes and do you and all your lake front neighbors have perfect systems and religiously pump their tanks? Again, not trying to bash you but simply pointing out that it's easy to scapegoat everyone else.

Perhaps I can clear up some misundertandings.

Leaching is when nutrients percolate through the soil and eventually reach the ground water. The nutrients get held in the soil and used by the grass (and trees, and shrubs, and flowers) by chemical bonds. With properly amended soil using lime the nutrients are more easy held in the soil and used by the plant. Over fertilizing is where this is an issue, especially coupled with bad soil chemistry and the nutrients can be washed right passed the root system.

Run-off is when the water travels along the surface. This is mitigated by watering in fertilizer after application and not before large storms, not over applying, using slow release fertilizers (whole topic by itself), sweeping or blowing any fertilizer that gets on hard surfaces back into the lawn, and proper soil amendment.

I could have made my post even longer by citing many textbooks and peer reviewed University studies. Unfortunately the information I am trying to pass along does not come in a fast-food version...

Your post is not atypical of what people think they know about water quality issues and fertilizer. I can assure you I put my money where my mouth is and my entire yard is designed to hold any water and fertilizer onto my property.

This will be my last post regarding fertilizer or lawn care on Winni.com

Carry on.

[Grant]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

...

This will be my last post regarding fertilizer or lawn care on Winni.com

Carry on.

Please, don't let it be. Although my closest lawn to the Lake is some 430 miles away, your insights and expertise are great to read. And you wouldn't be here if you didn't care about water quality as well.

People should focus more attention on the damn Canada Geese invading the Lake. And anyone with lakefront lawn should be looking into ways to make the geese unwelcome -- they will destroy the water quality faster than 1,000 manicured lawns.

[SIKSUKR]

LS,you are a wealth of info and I for one appreciate and respect your input here.Please continue to educate me and I'm sure others here with your knowledge.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by Grant

Please, don't let it be. Although my closest lawn to the Lake is some 430 miles away, your insights and expertise are great to read. And you wouldn't be here if you didn't care about water quality as well.

People should focus more attention on the damn Canada Geese invading the Lake. And anyone with lakefront lawn should be looking into ways to make the geese unwelcome -- they will destroy the water quality faster than 1,000 manicured lawns.

YOU ARE CORRECT ON THOSE DARNED GEESE. They poop like small dogs ALL OVER THE GRASS!!! WHAT TO DO???? I DO CHASE THEM AWAY WHEN I SEE THEM AND WHEN I AM THERE. It took me hours last year to get rid of what they left behind. Then I had to watch and go out and throw small pebbles near them and charge at them shouting like a madwoman with a broom in my hand. Quite a picture I would think

[Lakepilot]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

YOU ARE CORRECT ON THOSE DARNED GEESE. They poop like small dogs ALL OVER THE GRASS!!! WHAT TO DO???? I DO CHASE THEM AWAY WHEN I SEE THEM AND WHEN I AM THERE. It took me hours last year to get rid of what they left behind. Then I had to watch and go out and throw small pebbles near them and charge at them shouting like a madwoman with a broom in my hand. Quite a picture I would think

Please stop chasing them away = I think they just go down to the Wolfeboro town docks. We were there 3 or 4 days ago and you wouldn't believe the amount of goose stuff all over the docks. It took real care to avoid it.

[tis]

Well, thanks to Samiam, I think I solved the goose problem this year. I put up the flags. We looked like Uncle Al's used car lot for a few weeks. I just took them down yesterday as I haven't seen any geese for a while. But they worked great, the geese came by, checked out the flags, looked real mad and took off. They came a few more times, gave me a dirty look and left. One day they did get smart and go next door, sat on their beach for a while, then their dock and then came through the "back door" over to our lot. So I put up flags on the boundary to my neighbors, (told them it wasn't to keep them out) and the geese stayed away. It is amazing how quickly they can cover so that you can't even walk.


Thanks Samiam for the advice!!