Wetlands Counsel experiences????

HAHLY · 06-25-2008, 05:30 PM

Has anyone of this forum ever had and interaction with the Wetlands Counsel? If so, I would be interested in hearing your experiences with them. I was, not so recently, involved in a DES appeal which was ruled in my favor. Unfortunately, in order to take the next step in getting my permits I am required to wait for the Wetlands Counsel to file their written decision. The appeal was over 6 months ago! I have called and emailed the Appeals Clerk more times than I can count for the past 4 months but I keep getting the same response, that the Chairman is very busy and has not had the opportunity to write up the decision. I have read everything I can find on the appeals process. Most of the steps involve some kind of time limit. Apparently this step does not. I was hoping to finally be able to complete the work this summer but now it looks as though I will have to wait until next spring. This has been extremely frustrating and I'm not sure that I have any recourse. Suggestions??

chocophile · 06-26-2008, 07:17 AM

I'm afraid I can't provide any help with your question, but I wondered if you'd be willing to share a little more about your land, and the process of working with the Wetlands Council. We'll be in that same situation some day, and it would be helpful to know how others have approached it. Thanks.

Onshore · 06-26-2008, 07:38 AM

Talk to Gatto Nero.

SIKSUKR · 06-26-2008, 07:41 AM

Sounds like they were not happy with the decision and they are now dragging their feet,effectively having it their way as long as they can get away with it.I'll see if I can find some info.Don't you just love more government and more rules?

HAHLY · 06-26-2008, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Sounds like they were not happy with the decision and they are now dragging their feet,effectively having it their way as long as they can get away with it.I'll see if I can find some info.Don't you just love more government and more rules?

I don't believe that to be the case. It was a unanimous decision. I do not know if the counsel members get paid or not, but it is certainly not how they make their living. Everybody on it has full time careers. I just get the feeling that what they do for a living is taking precedence over their duties as a counsel member. I guess that is understandable to a degree, but if they can't perform their function of the counsel then perhaps they should consider stepping down.

Onshore · 06-26-2008, 08:08 AM

It has nothing to do with whether or not they are "happy with the decision". It was their decision, if they didn't like it they would have made a different one. The problem is logistics.

Gatto Nero · 06-26-2008, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shore things

The problem is logistics.

Logistics? How so?

Onshore · 06-26-2008, 08:41 AM

The clerk doesn't write the final decisions, they are drafted by the chair or vice chair of the hearing in question. The Council only meets twice a month at most. Most members are not state employees but are representives of various industries appointed by the groups they represent. They receive no pay other than mileage to the best of my knowledge. Many are trying to find time to serve on the council and draft decisions while keeping their own businesses running. No slight to the clerk, but they just don't get any administrative support when it comes to getting the decisions written. Keep in mind that the decisions are legal documents and they aren't always the easiest things to write, especially if you don't have training or experience in writing legal documents.

Gatto Nero · 06-26-2008, 09:27 AM

Shore Things, I agree with you on every count. Mostly that the clerk is not to blame. But 6 months????? I've looked over some past Decision & Order documents. From what I can tell they are generally no more than 4 or 5 pages in length. Much of that is rehashed facts of the case and much of it is cookie cutter legal mumbo jumbo. Granted, they may be difficult to write from a CYA standpoint but I doubt whoever is writing them is pondering verbiage for six months. I would think it would just be a matter of sitting down for an hour or so and getting it done, which doesn't seem to be happening.

Incidentally, as I was researching I noticed that the last Decision & Order based on a hearing, other than to deny an appeal prior to the hearing or to summarily dismiss one, was dated 3/14/07 from a hearing that took place on 2/27/07. That took two weeks and was over a year ago. Before that time they seemed to happen in a somewhat timely manner. Since then, not one? What happened in the last year that clogged up the system so badly?

SIKSUKR · 06-26-2008, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HAHLY

I don't believe that to be the case. It was a unanimous decision. I do not know if the counsel members get paid or not, but it is certainly not how they make their living. Everybody on it has full time careers. I just get the feeling that what they do for a living is taking precedence over their duties as a counsel member. I guess that is understandable to a degree, but if they can't perform their function of the counsel then perhaps they should consider stepping down.

Sorry.I'm probably out of line on this one.I really know nothing of the process so maybe I should not have weighed in.My apologies.

ITD · 06-26-2008, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shore things

The clerk doesn't write the final decisions, they are drafted by the chair or vice chair of the hearing in question. The Council only meets twice a month at most. Most members are not state employees but are representives of various industries appointed by the groups they represent. They receive no pay other than mileage to the best of my knowledge. Many are trying to find time to serve on the council and draft decisions while keeping their own businesses running. No slight to the clerk, but they just don't get any administrative support when it comes to getting the decisions written. Keep in mind that the decisions are legal documents and they aren't always the easiest things to write, especially if you don't have training or experience in writing legal documents.

What a load of Horses**t. The laws should be rescinded until this is fixed. The reasons you list are no excuse for putting people through this BS. If this were a business it would be bankrupt in a week.

Onshore · 06-26-2008, 12:47 PM

If the Wetlands Council were a business then the council members would be getting paid to provide a legal service and would not be volunteering their time. I'm not going to defend the Council beyond that. Truth is we are waiting for decisions also. Please just don't take out any frustrations on the clerk as it is beyond her control. As for the suggestion the the law be repealed until the appeals council is fixed that would be unnecessary and ill advised. Unnecessary because there is always the court system and ill advised because it would eliminate the "exemption" from the the Army Corps permitting requirements that NH projects currently enjoy under the State Programatic General Permit.

Gatto Nero · 06-26-2008, 01:36 PM

So then is the problem that they are volunteering time they haven't got? I'm sure they are all fine people but maybe they should find other people that do have the time that it takes.

Onshore · 06-26-2008, 01:58 PM

I think you are on the right track. That being said it is extremely difficult to find people that do have the time to participate.

Gatto Nero · 06-26-2008, 02:36 PM

I believe that this one of the very few parts of the appeals process that does not have a time limit and a resulting action if missed. If so, then there would seem to be an easy solution. Add a time limit.

http://www.des.nh.gov/factsheets/wtc/Timetable.pdf

Edit Added: I apologize. There is a time limit. It's 20 days. Now what?

ITD · 06-26-2008, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shore things

If the Wetlands Council were a business then the council members would be getting paid to provide a legal service and would not be volunteering their time. I'm not going to defend the Council beyond that. Truth is we are waiting for decisions also. Please just don't take out any frustrations on the clerk as it is beyond her control. As for the suggestion the the law be repealed until the appeals council is fixed that would be unnecessary and ill advised. Unnecessary because there is always the court system and ill advised because it would eliminate the "exemption" from the the Army Corps permitting requirements that NH projects currently enjoy under the State Programatic General Permit.

Sorry Shore Things, I don't want to chase you away, you've been very helpful on this forum to many people. Someone must be in charge and should be on top of this. The tacit acceptance of these people who have volunteered for these positions but don't have time to do what they have agreed to do is the problem. Making someone wait 6 months is unacceptable and reeks of incompetence. "Oh they're volunteers", is an infuriating response to a problem. Going to court involves time and expense and is not a reasonable answer. A reasonable way to handle this is to honor the time lines that Gatto references and impose them on these volunteers. If the timeline is missed, then the applicant is free to proceed. I'm sure if the applicant misses a deadline they are SOL. This needs to get fixed.....

Onshore · 06-26-2008, 08:37 PM

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. They're an appeals board that is independent of the Wetlands Bureau. When cases go before them we have the same standing as the Appellant, we get the same responses, in the same time frames. I do interact with some of the members professionally. I know those members to be very hard working people and it bothers me that anyone would think they were incompetent or slacking off. However, I also know where Gatto Nero and HAHLY are coming from.

At this point I just don't have anything productive that I could bring to this conversation.

Gatto Nero · 06-26-2008, 10:02 PM

I certainly didn't mean to imply that they are incompetent or slacking off. If I came off that way then I hope they accept my apologies. I do understand that they are volunteers and have "real jobs" to deal with. I too have dealt with some of them in their "real jobs" and have found them to be nothing less than professional. But it is extremely frustrating from where I, and apparently you, and others, sit. There must be a way to fix whatever the problem is because there certainly is one. If the DES can't fix it then who can? How high do we have to go to get an acceptable solution? Might you have a suggestion as to where we can turn??

Boat Doc · 06-30-2008, 06:30 AM

Interesting to read this thread as I just had a similar conversation with a friend who is going through the exact same experiences, with a long and frustrating wait. He can't even find out the status of his appeal. I know he is working with Paul over at Watermark so you might want to give him a call. I'm pretty sure he was or is a member of the Wetlands Council. I'm not exactly sure how this process works, but I think there should be some time limits.

tis · 06-30-2008, 06:39 AM

Most people that go through the DES experience feel it is too long and frustrating, BD. You are right about Paul, he was involved but had to step down.

Gatto Nero · 06-30-2008, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boat Doc

I know he is working with Paul over at Watermark so you might want to give him a call. I'm pretty sure he was or is a member of the Wetlands Council.

I can't put my finger on the rule but I'm pretty sure it is unethical, if not unlawful, to contact anyone on the Counsel with regard to an appeal outside of the formal process.

HAHLY · 06-30-2008, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shore things

They're an appeals board that is independent of the Wetlands Bureau. When cases go before them we have the same standing as the Appellant, we get the same responses, in the same time frames.

Even if they are independent of the Wetlands Bureau they are not completely independent are they? They must report to someone, right? Who is that someone? Who might we be able to file a complaint with, or at least ask for answers and expect replies?

Onshore · 06-30-2008, 12:59 PM

They are not accountable to DES in anyway. That is supposed to ensure their objectivity. Since DES is a party to the cases they hear, DES cannot be in any position to exert influence over them.

HAHLY · 07-01-2008, 05:48 AM

OK, I get that they are not accountable to DES. But they have to be accountable to somebody, even if its the governor himself. Does anybody on this forum know who they are accountable to? Who gives them the responsibility that they have? Who pays them their mileage expense to get to a meeting? Who would dismiss them if they screwed up?

Boat Doc · 07-01-2008, 06:55 AM

I just spoke to Paul at Watermark and confirmed that he resigned from the Council as he had too many appeals before them. He said the Council is operated under the DES Legal Dept. and that while it does not answer to the Wetlands Bureau (as noted above), it does answer to the Commissioner of DES. He voiced the same concerns and issues mentioned in this thread and he told me a number of people have complained to him about the same things. Hope this helps.

HAHLY · 07-01-2008, 08:13 AM

Now we're getting somewhere. So, if we are to lodge a complaint with anybody it would be with Commissioner Burack's office. Thanks Boat Doc.

Onshore · 07-01-2008, 12:05 PM

No one at DES, not even the Commissioner, has any authority over the Wetlands Council. Council members are nominated by the industry or groups that they represent and then those nominations are confirmed by the Governor. If anyone could be said to "oversee" the Council it is the Governor's office. Try starting there...

tis · 07-01-2008, 12:10 PM

My sympathies to you you, HAHLY! I know the frustrations and we didn't even go as far as you have. We just weren't up for the fight.

HAHLY · 07-01-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shore things

No one at DES, not even the Commissioner, has any authority over the Wetlands Council. Council members are nominated by the industry or groups that they represent and then those nominations are confirmed by the Governor. If anyone could be said to "oversee" the Council it is the Governor's office. Try starting there...

Oy vey! And here I thought I was making progress. Contacting the Governor doesn't sound like it will yield the results I am looking for.

Boat Doc · 07-02-2008, 02:46 PM

I did not inlcude this tidbit in my post yesterday, but the public members of the Council are paid employees of DES (a whopping $50.00 per month plus mileage). So, while the Council may not be accountable to DES as far as authority goes, it is at least administered by DES and therefore I think the Commissioner would be the best place to start. Good Luck!

Onshore · 07-02-2008, 05:44 PM

Well HAHLY I guess the question at this point is, aside from the price of a stamp or two, what do you have to lose?

Gatto Nero · 07-03-2008, 07:14 AM

Even better, email is free. I sent one off a couple days ago. I'll let you know if I get anywhere.

06-25-2008, 05:30 PM	#1
HAHLY Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: With the Old Man Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Wetlands Counsel experiences???? Has anyone of this forum ever had and interaction with the Wetlands Counsel? If so, I would be interested in hearing your experiences with them. I was, not so recently, involved in a DES appeal which was ruled in my favor. Unfortunately, in order to take the next step in getting my permits I am required to wait for the Wetlands Counsel to file their written decision. The appeal was over 6 months ago! I have called and emailed the Appeals Clerk more times than I can count for the past 4 months but I keep getting the same response, that the Chairman is very busy and has not had the opportunity to write up the decision. I have read everything I can find on the appeals process. Most of the steps involve some kind of time limit. Apparently this step does not. I was hoping to finally be able to complete the work this summer but now it looks as though I will have to wait until next spring. This has been extremely frustrating and I'm not sure that I have any recourse. Suggestions??

06-26-2008, 07:17 AM	#2
chocophile Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: 19-Mile Bay Posts: 111 Thanks: 15 Thanked 30 Times in 13 Posts	More Info? I'm afraid I can't provide any help with your question, but I wondered if you'd be willing to share a little more about your land, and the process of working with the Wetlands Council. We'll be in that same situation some day, and it would be helpful to know how others have approached it. Thanks.

06-26-2008, 07:41 AM	#4
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	Sounds like they were not happy with the decision and they are now dragging their feet,effectively having it their way as long as they can get away with it.I'll see if I can find some info.Don't you just love more government and more rules? __________________ SIKSUKR

06-26-2008, 09:27 AM	#9
Gatto Nero Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Isola Gatto Nero Posts: 697 Thanks: 162 Thanked 263 Times in 81 Posts	Shore Things, I agree with you on every count. Mostly that the clerk is not to blame. But 6 months????? I've looked over some past Decision & Order documents. From what I can tell they are generally no more than 4 or 5 pages in length. Much of that is rehashed facts of the case and much of it is cookie cutter legal mumbo jumbo. Granted, they may be difficult to write from a CYA standpoint but I doubt whoever is writing them is pondering verbiage for six months. I would think it would just be a matter of sitting down for an hour or so and getting it done, which doesn't seem to be happening. Incidentally, as I was researching I noticed that the last Decision & Order based on a hearing, other than to deny an appeal prior to the hearing or to summarily dismiss one, was dated 3/14/07 from a hearing that took place on 2/27/07. That took two weeks and was over a year ago. Before that time they seemed to happen in a somewhat timely manner. Since then, not one? What happened in the last year that clogged up the system so badly? __________________ La vita è buona su Isola Gatto Nero Last edited by Gatto Nero; 06-26-2008 at 10:38 AM.

06-26-2008, 01:36 PM	#13
Gatto Nero Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Isola Gatto Nero Posts: 697 Thanks: 162 Thanked 263 Times in 81 Posts	Volunteer Counsel So then is the problem that they are volunteering time they haven't got? I'm sure they are all fine people but maybe they should find other people that do have the time that it takes. __________________ La vita è buona su Isola Gatto Nero

06-26-2008, 07:38 AM	#3
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 502 Thanks: 12 Thanked 423 Times in 145 Posts	Talk to Gatto Nero.

06-26-2008, 08:08 AM	#6
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 502 Thanks: 12 Thanked 423 Times in 145 Posts	It has nothing to do with whether or not they are "happy with the decision". It was their decision, if they didn't like it they would have made a different one. The problem is logistics.

06-26-2008, 08:41 AM	#8
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 502 Thanks: 12 Thanked 423 Times in 145 Posts	The clerk doesn't write the final decisions, they are drafted by the chair or vice chair of the hearing in question. The Council only meets twice a month at most. Most members are not state employees but are representives of various industries appointed by the groups they represent. They receive no pay other than mileage to the best of my knowledge. Many are trying to find time to serve on the council and draft decisions while keeping their own businesses running. No slight to the clerk, but they just don't get any administrative support when it comes to getting the decisions written. Keep in mind that the decisions are legal documents and they aren't always the easiest things to write, especially if you don't have training or experience in writing legal documents.

06-26-2008, 12:47 PM	#12
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 502 Thanks: 12 Thanked 423 Times in 145 Posts	If the Wetlands Council were a business then the council members would be getting paid to provide a legal service and would not be volunteering their time. I'm not going to defend the Council beyond that. Truth is we are waiting for decisions also. Please just don't take out any frustrations on the clerk as it is beyond her control. As for the suggestion the the law be repealed until the appeals council is fixed that would be unnecessary and ill advised. Unnecessary because there is always the court system and ill advised because it would eliminate the "exemption" from the the Army Corps permitting requirements that NH projects currently enjoy under the State Programatic General Permit.

06-26-2008, 01:58 PM	#14
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 502 Thanks: 12 Thanked 423 Times in 145 Posts	I think you are on the right track. That being said it is extremely difficult to find people that do have the time to participate.

06-26-2008, 02:36 PM	#15
Gatto Nero Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Isola Gatto Nero Posts: 697 Thanks: 162 Thanked 263 Times in 81 Posts	I believe that this one of the very few parts of the appeals process that does not have a time limit and a resulting action if missed. If so, then there would seem to be an easy solution. Add a time limit. http://www.des.nh.gov/factsheets/wtc/Timetable.pdf Edit Added: I apologize. There is a time limit. It's 20 days. Now what? __________________ La vita è buona su Isola Gatto Nero

06-26-2008, 08:37 PM	#17
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 502 Thanks: 12 Thanked 423 Times in 145 Posts	You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. They're an appeals board that is independent of the Wetlands Bureau. When cases go before them we have the same standing as the Appellant, we get the same responses, in the same time frames. I do interact with some of the members professionally. I know those members to be very hard working people and it bothers me that anyone would think they were incompetent or slacking off. However, I also know where Gatto Nero and HAHLY are coming from. At this point I just don't have anything productive that I could bring to this conversation.

06-26-2008, 10:02 PM	#18
Gatto Nero Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Isola Gatto Nero Posts: 697 Thanks: 162 Thanked 263 Times in 81 Posts	I certainly didn't mean to imply that they are incompetent or slacking off. If I came off that way then I hope they accept my apologies. I do understand that they are volunteers and have "real jobs" to deal with. I too have dealt with some of them in their "real jobs" and have found them to be nothing less than professional. But it is extremely frustrating from where I, and apparently you, and others, sit. There must be a way to fix whatever the problem is because there certainly is one. If the DES can't fix it then who can? How high do we have to go to get an acceptable solution? Might you have a suggestion as to where we can turn?? __________________ La vita è buona su Isola Gatto Nero

06-30-2008, 06:30 AM	#19
Boat Doc Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Interesting to read this thread as I just had a similar conversation with a friend who is going through the exact same experiences, with a long and frustrating wait. He can't even find out the status of his appeal. I know he is working with Paul over at Watermark so you might want to give him a call. I'm pretty sure he was or is a member of the Wetlands Council. I'm not exactly sure how this process works, but I think there should be some time limits.

06-30-2008, 06:39 AM	#20
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,697 Thanks: 751 Thanked 1,452 Times in 1,009 Posts	Most people that go through the DES experience feel it is too long and frustrating, BD. You are right about Paul, he was involved but had to step down.

06-30-2008, 12:59 PM	#23
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 502 Thanks: 12 Thanked 423 Times in 145 Posts	They are not accountable to DES in anyway. That is supposed to ensure their objectivity. Since DES is a party to the cases they hear, DES cannot be in any position to exert influence over them.

07-01-2008, 05:48 AM	#24
HAHLY Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: With the Old Man Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	OK, I get that they are not accountable to DES. But they have to be accountable to somebody, even if its the governor himself. Does anybody on this forum know who they are accountable to? Who gives them the responsibility that they have? Who pays them their mileage expense to get to a meeting? Who would dismiss them if they screwed up?

07-01-2008, 06:55 AM	#25
Boat Doc Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I just spoke to Paul at Watermark and confirmed that he resigned from the Council as he had too many appeals before them. He said the Council is operated under the DES Legal Dept. and that while it does not answer to the Wetlands Bureau (as noted above), it does answer to the Commissioner of DES. He voiced the same concerns and issues mentioned in this thread and he told me a number of people have complained to him about the same things. Hope this helps.

07-01-2008, 08:13 AM	#26
HAHLY Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: With the Old Man Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Now we're getting somewhere. So, if we are to lodge a complaint with anybody it would be with Commissioner Burack's office. Thanks Boat Doc.

07-01-2008, 12:05 PM	#27
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 502 Thanks: 12 Thanked 423 Times in 145 Posts	No one at DES, not even the Commissioner, has any authority over the Wetlands Council. Council members are nominated by the industry or groups that they represent and then those nominations are confirmed by the Governor. If anyone could be said to "oversee" the Council it is the Governor's office. Try starting there...

07-01-2008, 12:10 PM	#28
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,697 Thanks: 751 Thanked 1,452 Times in 1,009 Posts	My sympathies to you you, HAHLY! I know the frustrations and we didn't even go as far as you have. We just weren't up for the fight.

07-02-2008, 02:46 PM	#30
Boat Doc Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I did not inlcude this tidbit in my post yesterday, but the public members of the Council are paid employees of DES (a whopping $50.00 per month plus mileage). So, while the Council may not be accountable to DES as far as authority goes, it is at least administered by DES and therefore I think the Commissioner would be the best place to start. Good Luck!

07-02-2008, 05:44 PM	#31
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 502 Thanks: 12 Thanked 423 Times in 145 Posts	Well HAHLY I guess the question at this point is, aside from the price of a stamp or two, what do you have to lose?

07-03-2008, 07:14 AM	#32
Gatto Nero Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Isola Gatto Nero Posts: 697 Thanks: 162 Thanked 263 Times in 81 Posts	Even better, email is free. I sent one off a couple days ago. I'll let you know if I get anywhere. __________________ La vita è buona su Isola Gatto Nero