Timing Belt

[CGI3]

Looking to get my timing belt replaced on my honda. Any recomendations? I live in Meredith area. Thanks in advance!

[dpg]

Originally Posted by CGI3

Looking to get my timing belt replaced on my honda. Any recomendations? I live in Meredith area. Thanks in advance!

Sorry no recommendation but do you have an issue or just maintenance? When they do it I'd spring for a new water pump also. Not sure where there's one but personally I'd attempt to bring it to a Honda dealer (ya, you will pay more.) I have three Honda's in the house and the deaslership near me in mass has done everything so far.

[HomeWood]

Timing belt is not a hard job to do. Getting to the belt is the hardest part. I changed it on my 4 cyl Camry in about 3 hours with a repair manual. There are unique procedures that you won't know without a manual. That was the first time I ever did one myself, so if a shop quotes you 8 hours for this....find another shop. All cars are different, but the labor shouldn't vary too much.

It sounds like you are looking for a place to take it to and I'm sorry I can't suggest a place. I know a couple shops in Moultonboro have been recommended on here in the past. However, it really is a job any repair shop should be able to do. Parts shouldn't be over $100 depending on the brand of part. That includes a new water pump. The parts include the belt, tensioner, hardware and a pump. I spent about $60 for my timing belt kit.

You want to do a water pump at the same time because it takes the same amount of labor to get back to the pump should it go. Murphy's law says it will go after you spend the money for just a new belt.

[songkrai]

There are timing belts and timing chains.

Read up on "interface" engines and "non interface" engines.

With one type the engine blows up if the belt breaks. The other type the engine just stops with no damage.
Why the manufacturers make these different types of belts and chains is beyond me.

Larson Automotive at Moultonborough Airport comes highly recommended for automotive repairs. Located:

22 Airport Rd
Moultonborough, NH 03254

Phone number is in the book.

[dpg]

Originally Posted by songkrai

There are timing belts and timing chains.

Read up on "interface" engines and "non interface" engines.

With one type the engine blows up if the belt breaks. The other type the engine just stops with no damage.
Why the manufacturers make these different types of belts and chains is beyond me.

Larson Automotive at Moultonborough Airport comes highly recommended for automotive repairs. Located:

22 Airport Rd
Moultonborough, NH 03254

Phone number is in the book.

Yeah but what your talking about is the engine itself you can't "make" it one or the other by changing belt types. Don't quote me but I think the Honda's use both belts and chains depending on whether it's a 4 or 6 cylinder.

[Lakepilot]

This shop is in Tamworth on rt 16. He does excellent work and is honest.

I brought in a 560SL thinking the head gasket was leaking (common problem with these cars). He found the oil pressure sensor leaking. He could have told me it was the head gasket and charged accordingly and didn't. The 560 hasn't leaked a drop of oil since he fixed it.

http://www.ticesautomotive.com/

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by songkrai

There are timing belts and timing chains.

Read up on "interface" engines and "non interface" engines.

With one type the engine blows up if the belt breaks. The other type the engine just stops with no damage.
Why the manufacturers make these different types of belts and chains is beyond me.

Larson Automotive at Moultonborough Airport comes highly recommended for automotive repairs. Located:

22 Airport Rd
Moultonborough, NH 03254

Phone number is in the book.

I think you mean "interference" and "Non-interference" engines.

Most Honda's have "interference" engines which means the valves will hit the top of the pistons when the timing belt breaks.
"Non-interference" engines will not damage the valves because there is clearance between the top of the piston and valve; therefore the valves won't hit the top of the pistons when the belt breaks.

IMO your best bet is to take your car to an authorized Honda dealer and get the work done. You should pay @ $200 for parts and $300 for labor, and that includes a new water pump. $600 should be the max.

[8gv]

I recently changed my timing belt, accessory belts and water pump. It's a 2.0L, interference engine. I believe the book says do it after 10 years or 100,000 miles. I had both.

The procedure required a special tool to hold the crankshaft pulley while extreeme force is used to break free the crankshaft bolt. I borrowed my friends 150# torque wrench which I augmented with a 2' pipe. I augmented the special pulley tool with a 4' pipe.

Following the manual (found online) instructions was tedious but doable. The only thing I couldn't figure out was where the block coolant drain plug was. As such, I got a nice antifreeze bath when I removed the water pump. After many (not going to embarass myself here) hours of auto intimacy, the car ran fine with no issues. The belts and pump I removed showed non signs of wear or imminent failure.

I have decent mx skills and time limited only by my eventual demise so this was a project I felt comfortable doing. YMMV!

NOTE:
If your HONDA has the same 2.0L engine as mine I have VERY IMPORTANT information on the need for valve adjustments more frequent than the manual requires! Let me know if you're interested in that.

[songkrai]

"Yeah but what your talking about is the engine itself you can't "make" it one or the other by changing belt types."


Correct. The engine when manufactured comes with one of two types of timing belts. And one type of timing chain.



"I think you mean "interference" and "Non-interference" engines."

Correct. I do get the term mixed up. Interference is the correct term.


If I were going to purchase any new vehicle from a Ford to a Mercedes, I would only choose one with a non-interference engine. It's worth asking before buying.

[NoBozo]

Toyota stopped designing engines with timing "Belts" and went back to the tried and true timing "Chains" quite a few years ago. NB

[patman]

[lecture]
The difference between interference and non-interference is often the performance and efficiency of the engine. There is a direct correlation between how much the intake valves open and how much air/fuel mixture can be pulled into the cylinder, as well as how much burned mixture can be pushed out through the exhaust valves. More intake charge, and less leftover burned mixture contribute greatly to how well the engine runs.

If the belt (or chain) is replaced at an appropriate interval, the risk of engine damage on an interference design is negligible. Conversely, you're probably paying for your non-interference engine with reduced operating efficiency.

It's not like someone woke up one morning and decided to roll the dice to design the piston-to-valve clearance, there's a lot of engineering that goes into it depending on what the goals are for the engine design.
[/lecture]

[Mirror Lake's BB]

Originally Posted by Rusty

I think you mean "interference" and "Non-interference" engines.

Most Honda's have "interference" engines which means the valves will hit the top of the pistons when the timing belt breaks.
"Non-interference" engines will not damage the valves because there is clearance between the top of the piston and valve; therefore the valves won't hit the top of the pistons when the belt breaks.

IMO your best bet is to take your car to an authorized Honda dealer and get the work done. You should pay @ $200 for parts and $300 for labor, and that includes a new water pump. $600 should be the max.

Yes, "interference" is the proper term. And the engine won't "blow up" but will sustain internal damage.

The timing belt went on me once on a '90's-ish Toyota 4 cyl pickup because of the belt tensioner failure. My mechanic said that he always replaces the tensioner with the belt; good insurance. I don't know if this still applies but surely doesn't hurt to ask.

Another 2 cents from my pocket.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by patman

[lecture]
The difference between interference and non-interference is often the performance and efficiency of the engine. There is a direct correlation between how much the intake valves open and how much air/fuel mixture can be pulled into the cylinder, as well as how much burned mixture can be pushed out through the exhaust valves. More intake charge, and less leftover burned mixture contribute greatly to how well the engine runs.

If the belt (or chain) is replaced at an appropriate interval, the risk of engine damage on an interference design is negligible. Conversely, you're probably paying for your non-interference engine with reduced operating efficiency.

It's not like someone woke up one morning and decided to roll the dice to design the piston-to-valve clearance, there's a lot of engineering that goes into it depending on what the goals are for the engine design.
[/lecture]

(Recitation)

Good points...however you left out one important factor and that is "cost".
An interference smaller engine can create just as much power as a larger non-interference or “free-running” engine...hence, less cost.

(End of recitation)

[patman]

Originally Posted by Rusty

(Recitation)

Good points...however you left out one important factor and that is "cost".
An interference smaller engine can create just as much power as a larger non-interference or “free-running” engine...hence, less cost.

(End of recitation)

Agreed. As I said...depending on what the goals are...

[CGI3]

Originally Posted by dpg

Sorry no recommendation but do you have an issue or just maintenance? When they do it I'd spring for a new water pump also. Not sure where there's one but personally I'd attempt to bring it to a Honda dealer (ya, you will pay more.) I have three Honda's in the house and the deaslership near me in mass has done everything so far.

Just maintenance. I love the car and has treated me well over the years. Don't want to shell out 6-800 at a dealer when I could have it done at a local shop for 3-400. Looking for a good independant honda mechanic in the area.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by CGI3

Looking to get my timing belt replaced on my honda. Any recomendations? I live in Meredith area. Thanks in advance!

I just had timing belt water pump and all other belts replaced on my 2004 Xterra. Laconia Garage did the work at a significant cost savings over the dealer. Located on Rt-106 heading south out of Laconia just across the street from Granite State Glass. Neil is great to deal with and his work is excellent.
His garage is one of the cleanest I've ever seen.
The cost to do the whole job with parts was less then the dealer quoted me just for labor.

[songkrai]

" And the engine won't "blow up" but will sustain internal damage."

"Blow Up" or severe costly internal damage. Semantics.

The engine in these vehicles is virtually destroyed. The cost to repair is more then just purchasing a rebuilt engine.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Mirror Lake's BB

Yes, "interference" is the proper term. And the engine won't "blow up" but will sustain internal damage.

The timing belt went on me once on a '90's-ish Toyota 4 cyl pickup because of the belt tensioner failure. My mechanic said that he always replaces the tensioner with the belt; good insurance. I don't know if this still applies but surely doesn't hurt to ask.

Another 2 cents from my pocket.

Hmm, Toyota never used a 4 cylinder engine with a belt in the trucks from that time frame. They had timing chains in them and the chain tensioners were prone to get as I liked to put it lazy, causing slack in the chain, the chain guides to break with the chain slapping against them (they were just made of plastic) eventually they would fall into the oil pan. With no guides the chain would rub against the water jacket in the timing cover, and if left long enough breech the cooling system and make a real mess of the engine.

Much of that was caused at engine start up as oil pressure needed to build to get the tensioner to do it's job. This rarely happened when the factory OEM oil filters were used, but the aftermarket ones didn't have the bleed back valves in them allowing all the oil to drain out of them and back into the pan and thus take more time to pump enough oil into the system to activate the tensioner. When you ordered a new chain kit, it came with a new tensioner, guides, chain and sprockets.

[NoBozo]

I've had ALL Toyotas since 1974..with a brief stint in 1979 with two Hondas. I can't remember ..I had a Toyota that blew a timing belt on the highway. It was close enough to home that my wife towed me back home. NO Damage to the engine. It was either the '74 Corollla or the Cheap Azz Tercel later on. I did the work myself. I still have the Belt. The belt didn't break. There are teeth missing from the belt.

The 1979 Ferrari 308 had timing belts. The engine was a 3.0 litre V8 making about 230 HP with carberetters..the last before fuel injection.. The Ferrari recomendation was to replace the timing belts every 15,000 miles. It was an "Interference" engine. The cost for routine timing belt replacement was about $1100 in 1988. NB

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I've had ALL Toyotas since 1974..with a brief stint in 1979 with two Hondas. I can't remember ..I had a Toyota that blew a timing belt on the highway. It was close enough to home that my wife towed me back home. NO Damage to the engine. It was either the '74 Corollla or the Cheap Azz Tercel later on. I did the work myself. I still have the Belt. The belt didn't break. There are teeth missing from the belt.

The 1979 Ferrari 308 had timing belts. The engine was a 3.0 litre V8 making about 230 HP with carberetters..the last before fuel injection.. The Ferrari recomendation was to replace the timing belts every 15,000 miles. It was an "Interference" engine. The cost for routine timing belt replacement was about $1100 in 1988. NB

Mine cost me just under $800 with parts.
I was originally told it wasn't a belt but a chain so I never even thought about it until it was in for other maintenance and the mechanic asked if it had been done. The manufacturers manual says replace at 105k and I had 135k on the vehicle. The belt looked fine they said when it was removed but since it's replacement my fuel economy has increased about 2mpg.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

Mine cost me just under $800 with parts.
I was originally told it wasn't a belt but a chain so I never even thought about it until it was in for other maintenance and the mechanic asked if it had been done. The manufacturers manual says replace at 105k and I had 135k on the vehicle. The belt looked fine they said when it was removed but since it's replacement my fuel economy has increased about 2mpg.

There were two engines available for the 2000-2004 Xterra.

The 2.4-liter 4-cylinder DOHC engine used a timing chain.

The 3.3-liter V6 SOHC engine (and the supercharged version in the SE) used a timing belt.

The timing belt kit for the V6 cost @ $200.00. Amazon sells them for $206.92

A garage can pick up a kit for somewhat less then $200. So if you paid $800 to have it done, then @$600 was in labor charges and some other things like coolant and cleaning fluids.

So all in all you got a good deal.

What did the Nissan dealership quote you as a price to do the job?

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by Rusty

There were two engines available for the 2000-2004 Xterra.

The 2.4-liter 4-cylinder DOHC engine used a timing chain.

The 3.3-liter V6 SOHC engine (and the supercharged version in the SE) used a timing belt.

The timing belt kit for the V6 cost @ $200.00. Amazon sells them for $206.92

A garage can pick up a kit for somewhat less then $200. So if you paid $800 to have it done, then @$600 was in labor charges and some other things like coolant and cleaning fluids.

So all in all you got a good deal.

What did the Nissan dealership quote you as a price to do the job?

Sorry I screwed up Rusty. The oil pan parts & labor was $800. The Timing belt and new water pump were $600 or $599.50.
I also just had the rusted out oil pan replaced along with a new exhaust and that came to $1300.00, $800 being the oil pan parts & labor.
When I went to pick it up the started died. All in all almost $2200 in work this summer and I just put new tires on last week at $900.
Still cheaper then a new car payment and far less to register and insure.
I had every intention of selling the Xterra and buying a new Tacoma but now I'm sitting on the Xterra for a few more years. I figure if I get 3 years then it cost me $1000 a year, I can take that.
In talking with the mechanic he highly recommended replacing the water pump at the same time as the timing belt. He said that if the water pump does go then the price to replace is the same as the timing belt because the water pump is timing belt driven. That makes perfect sense to me with 135K on the parts. FYI all the parts except for the starter were OEM from the dealer.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

Sorry I screwed up Rusty. The oil pan parts & labor was $800. The Timing belt and new water pump were $600 or $599.50.

Thank you.

$600 is a VERY good price. Five Stars for Laconia Garage. However if you would have paid $800, that still would not have been unreasonable. A little high but not unreasonable.

I know that I recommended that forum member "CGI3" take her car to a Honda dealership, but I think that where you took your's would be just as good, especially because you had good luck with the quality of work and price.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Thank you.

$600 is a VERY good price. Five Stars for Laconia Garage. However if you would have paid $800, that still would not have been unreasonable. A little high but not unreasonable.

I know that I recommended that forum member "CGI3" take her car to a Honda dealership, but I think that where you took your's would be just as good, especially because you had good luck with the quality of work and price.

Two repair techs, one the owner and the other his employee and I believe both are master technicians. Oh and Deb who runs the office.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by 8gv

I recently changed my timing belt, accessory belts and water pump.

The procedure required a special tool to hold the crankshaft pulley while extreeme force is used to break free the crankshaft bolt. I borrowed my friends 150# torque wrench which I augmented with a 2' pipe.

Torque wrenches can lose their accuracy if "augmented".

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I did the work myself. I still have the Belt. The belt didn't break. There are teeth missing from the belt.

I had 10,000 miles left to replace a timing belt, but with a long weekend ahead—and I could see all of its "run"—I replaced the belt ahead of time. There were teeth missing then.

[patman]

Originally Posted by 8gv

I borrowed my friends 150# torque wrench which I augmented with a 2' pipe.

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Torque wrenches can lose their accuracy if "augmented".

That's putting it mildly, ApS... A friend's wrench? Reason #27 why I don't lend tools. At best it needs to be recalibrated now, worst case it's bent/damaged.

You should NEVER use a torque wrench to disassemble anything. That's what breaker bars and long-handle ratchets are for.

[8gv]

How does one calibrate a torque wrench? I wonder if my two smaller craftsman ones can be checked.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by 8gv

How does one calibrate a torque wrench? I wonder if my two smaller craftsman ones can be checked.

All the cars, trucks, bikes, snowmobiles, ATV's, etc that I have worked on in my life I have never once used a torque wrench to reassemble. I've always gone by the rule if it requires a high torque I crank it down if low torque I snug it up.
I'm not advocating this practice but it has always worked for me. I've never lost a tire off of any of the vehicles we've owned and I rotate tires every 3-4k using a 4 way to tighten the lugs.
The only bolts I've ever snapped were ones I've been removing that were rusted so bad other options did not work.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by 8gv

How does one calibrate a torque wrench? I wonder if my two smaller craftsman ones can be checked.

Most structural steel sub contractors use what's called a "Skidmore Wilhelm Bolt Tension Indicator". If you know anyone in the trades or any iron worker they could probably get it done for you, it's a very simple to use and used daily on all construction sites when structural steel is going up..

Dan

[ApS]

Originally Posted by 8gv

How does one calibrate a torque wrench? I wonder if my two smaller craftsman ones can be checked.

The cost involved doesn't rate a calibration. Most Craftsman torque wrenches can be purchased for less than a professional recalibration. Some instructions have it written--to "recalibrate upon dropping this tool".

[8gv]

I'll ask my airplane mx. I believe the regs say he must use a "calibrated" torque wrench. I'm not sure if by "calibrated" they mean one that can be adjusted to a set amount f torque or one that can be adjusted to a known torque.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by 8gv

I'll ask my airplane mx. I believe the regs say he must use a "calibrated" torque wrench. I'm not sure if by "calibrated" they mean one that can be adjusted to a set amount f torque or one that can be adjusted to a known torque.

"Calibrated" means successfully tested against a test standard. I worked in a manufacturing facility for a few years and our high-quality torque wrenches required periodic calibration. They were rarely off by much.

I have a pair of high-quality torque wrenches that I use for engine assembly and such. They've never been re-calibrated. I am careful to not drop them and I don't leave any stress on their springs when I store them. I have never broken a fastener with them or had gasket failure after using them. I have had a fastener loosen up after using them to tighten it to a specified torque, but that was on a Mercruiser gimbal ring clamp bolt and those are known to loosen with use.

I hate timing belts. I have had two catastrophic failures with timing belts over the years and none with a chain. I find timing belt changes to be a tedious waste of my time and won't buy a car with one ever again. Timing chains do not need periodic replacement. Gimme a chain thankyouverymuch.

I love the 1.8 liter 4 cylinder in my Toyota Matrix. It has a chain and is also incredibly easy to service. They did a great job with serviceability on that engine. Those of us with big hands appreciate that.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by 8gv

How does one calibrate a torque wrench? I wonder if my two smaller craftsman ones can be checked.

Craftsmen torque wrenches can be brought back to a Sears store to be calibrated; they will be sent out for recalibration. I had one done a couple years ago; I forget the exact price but it was $50-$60.

By the way APS, I did pay more for that wrench when I purchased it. I understand it's not the best tool available but since I don't work in a garage, I don't have access to Snap-On, Mac Tools, etc. Besides, it's not like I'm building race engines.

[8gv]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I love the 1.8 liter 4 cylinder in my Toyota Matrix. It has a chain and is also incredibly easy to service. They did a great job with serviceability on that engine. Those of us with big hands appreciate that.

in my early years of wrenching, my favorite cars to work on were the ones that had a larger engine as an option. The smaller engine had lots of room to work.

[Mirror Lake's BB]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Hmm, Toyota never used a 4 cylinder engine with a belt in the trucks from that time frame. They had timing chains in them and the chain tensioners were prone to get as I liked to put it lazy, causing slack in the chain, the chain guides to break with the chain slapping against them (they were just made of plastic) eventually they would fall into the oil pan. With no guides the chain would rub against the water jacket in the timing cover, and if left long enough breech the cooling system and make a real mess of the engine.

Much of that was caused at engine start up as oil pressure needed to build to get the tensioner to do it's job. This rarely happened when the factory OEM oil filters were used, but the aftermarket ones didn't have the bleed back valves in them allowing all the oil to drain out of them and back into the pan and thus take more time to pump enough oil into the system to activate the tensioner. When you ordered a new chain kit, it came with a new tensioner, guides, chain and sprockets.

Good pickup Maxum! It has been some time since I've owned this vehicle (but still have the genuine Toyota service manual). It actually was an 88 with a 22R-E engine and it is/was an interference engine. And you are correct, it was a timing chain. It broke days before our trek up to the Lakes Region. At the time I didn't know whether it was an interference type and back then you, well at least I, weren't aware of internet search engines. Long story short, mechanic pulled the head and no damage. But in doing so, the head was warped and had to have it sent out to be milled. Then, it needed a new distributor. All about $1500 worth of work. I loved that 4x4 pickup truck.

[CGI3]

Just dropped it off to D & D imports in Concord. They came highly recomended from a few people that I know. They qouted me a price of 375.00belt, and water pump. Been there for over 20 years. Called a few shops in the area (all highly recomended) and was qouted prices from 325.00-800.00. Having them do a few other things also, alignment, tire balance, and E-brake cable. I'll let you know how it goes...Thanks all!!

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

All the cars, trucks, bikes, snowmobiles, ATV's, etc that I have worked on in my life I have never once used a torque wrench to reassemble. I've always gone by the rule if it requires a high torque I crank it down if low torque I snug it up.
I'm not advocating this practice but it has always worked for me. I've never lost a tire off of any of the vehicles we've owned and I rotate tires every 3-4k using a 4 way to tighten the lugs.
The only bolts I've ever snapped were ones I've been removing that were rusted so bad other options did not work.

Don't ever use that strategy on a short block assembly. Do that on rod bolts and you may not like the results.

Or cylinder heads.... I can think of tons of places on a car where proper torque value is essential.