Propane Pricing

Whimsey · 08-10-2012, 10:24 AM

Energy North is quoting $2.83/gal for their pre-buy program. Our Town was $2.28 but is sold-out for this upcoming season. Anyone have any other data points? Thanks.

TheProfessor · 08-11-2012, 05:32 PM

To change companies one has to have the tank (s) removed.
Before they can remove the tanks the current propane has to be removed.
You do get credit for the propane removed.
Then most charge a $75.00 tank removal fee.
Then the new company has to record the model and serial number of every propane appliance that you have.
Then the new propane company will check all "fittings" to make sure that they are up to date.
Lately, I have heard that these propane companies are checking to see if the lines are grounded. Many are not.

So it's probably best to shop around and get one good comapny and stick with them.

Belmont Resident · 08-12-2012, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

To change companies one has to have the tank (s) removed.
Before they can remove the tanks the current propane has to be removed.
You do get credit for the propane removed.
Then most charge a $75.00 tank removal fee.
Then the new company has to record the model and serial number of every propane appliance that you have.
Then the new propane company will check all "fittings" to make sure that they are up to date.
Lately, I have heard that these propane companies are checking to see if the lines are grounded. Many are not.

So it's probably best to shop around and get one good comapny and stick with them.

Not being a propane user except for the grill, can you buy your own tank?

DickR · 08-12-2012, 11:10 AM

To expand on what Wifi said, propane can be kept in the liquid state if maintained under pressure in the tank. Pressure goes up with temperature of the liquid. Here are some values (source: http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html):

Temp (F) Pressure (psig)
-30 6.8
0 24.5
70 110
100 177
[edit: I tried to insert more space between T and P values, to no avail. How do I do this?]

Inside the tank, the vapor space above the liquid level is vaporized propane. Thus it is possible for an outside tank to provide just enough pressure to deliver propane gas to the furnace. As the the gas is used, pressure drops slightly, more liquid is vaporized, and heat to vaporized more liquid comes from the liquid itself, cooling the liquid slightly. As the liquid temperature drops, heat flows from the warmer outside air temperature into the tank, and ultimately the liquid temperature won't drop anymore as steady state is reached. Under some conditions of humid air and something inside using propane, the level of liquid in the tank can be seen from the extent of condensation on the outside of the tank, much as it would be seen on a partially emptied cold can of beer on a humid day.

On the other hand, natural gas is mostly methane. For methane, tanking it is more complicated. Its critical temperature is about -117 F, at which temperature the pressure it exerts in a tank is 652 psig. This is the maximum temperature at which methane can have a liquid phase under any pressure. Any warmer (ok, less cold) than that and all you have is just compressed vapor at any pressure. Furthermore, as the critical temperature is approached, the densities of the vapor and liquid phases get closer and closer. To gain the storage volume advantage of a liquid, the temperature of methane must be kept very, very cold. For storage in a tank near atmospheric pressure, this temperature is about -260 F. Doing this is not practical for a domestic installation.

Whimsey · 08-12-2012, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

To change companies one has to have the tank (s) removed.
Before they can remove the tanks the current propane has to be removed.
You do get credit for the propane removed.
Then most charge a $75.00 tank removal fee.
Then the new company has to record the model and serial number of every propane appliance that you have.
Then the new propane company will check all "fittings" to make sure that they are up to date.
Lately, I have heard that these propane companies are checking to see if the lines are grounded. Many are not.

So it's probably best to shop around and get one good company and stick with them.

Mine is an underground tank. To change companies you have to get the new supplier to buy the tank from the old supplier, and not everyone will do that. I'll probably buy it back myself next year to facilitate using the Our Town buying coop program.

I was able to negotiate Energy North down 20 cents/gal to $2.62 (I use about 2300 gal/yr). Thanks for the responses.

fpartri497 · 08-11-2012, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whimsey

Energy North is quoting $2.83/gal for their pre-buy program. Our Town was $2.28 but is sold-out for this upcoming season. Anyone have any other data points? Thanks.

Energy North just charged me $ 3.83 a gal. because I only buy about 35-40 gal. per season

Lakegeezer · 08-12-2012, 05:29 AM

With the new availability of fracked natural gas, its price is much cheaper than propane. Yet, no tanks, no truck delivery. It must be brought in via pipe. That will never happen in the back-woods of the lakes region, so I must ask - why isn't natural gas delivered and stored like propane?

wifi · 08-12-2012, 06:23 AM

They can liquify natural gas and transport it by truck or ship, but in order to liquify it, they have to bring it down to (lower than) -200F and maintain the tanks there while they are transporting it.

Might not be too efficient for the homeowner to do.

08-10-2012, 10:24 AM	#1
Whimsey Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Rum Point/West Alton Posts: 196 Thanks: 261 Thanked 37 Times in 24 Posts	Propane Pricing Energy North is quoting $2.83/gal for their pre-buy program. Our Town was $2.28 but is sold-out for this upcoming season. Anyone have any other data points? Thanks.

08-12-2012, 11:10 AM	#4
DickR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 750 Thanks: 4 Thanked 259 Times in 171 Posts	Propane pressure To expand on what Wifi said, propane can be kept in the liquid state if maintained under pressure in the tank. Pressure goes up with temperature of the liquid. Here are some values (source: http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html): Temp (F) Pressure (psig) -30 6.8 0 24.5 70 110 100 177 [edit: I tried to insert more space between T and P values, to no avail. How do I do this?] Inside the tank, the vapor space above the liquid level is vaporized propane. Thus it is possible for an outside tank to provide just enough pressure to deliver propane gas to the furnace. As the the gas is used, pressure drops slightly, more liquid is vaporized, and heat to vaporized more liquid comes from the liquid itself, cooling the liquid slightly. As the liquid temperature drops, heat flows from the warmer outside air temperature into the tank, and ultimately the liquid temperature won't drop anymore as steady state is reached. Under some conditions of humid air and something inside using propane, the level of liquid in the tank can be seen from the extent of condensation on the outside of the tank, much as it would be seen on a partially emptied cold can of beer on a humid day. On the other hand, natural gas is mostly methane. For methane, tanking it is more complicated. Its critical temperature is about -117 F, at which temperature the pressure it exerts in a tank is 652 psig. This is the maximum temperature at which methane can have a liquid phase under any pressure. Any warmer (ok, less cold) than that and all you have is just compressed vapor at any pressure. Furthermore, as the critical temperature is approached, the densities of the vapor and liquid phases get closer and closer. To gain the storage volume advantage of a liquid, the temperature of methane must be kept very, very cold. For storage in a tank near atmospheric pressure, this temperature is about -260 F. Doing this is not practical for a domestic installation.

08-12-2012, 05:29 AM	#7
Lakegeezer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 1,677 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 354 Thanked 639 Times in 290 Posts	Why not natural gas? With the new availability of fracked natural gas, its price is much cheaper than propane. Yet, no tanks, no truck delivery. It must be brought in via pipe. That will never happen in the back-woods of the lakes region, so I must ask - why isn't natural gas delivered and stored like propane? __________________ -lg

08-11-2012, 05:32 PM	#2
TheProfessor Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,119 Thanks: 17 Thanked 341 Times in 206 Posts	To change companies one has to have the tank (s) removed. Before they can remove the tanks the current propane has to be removed. You do get credit for the propane removed. Then most charge a $75.00 tank removal fee. Then the new company has to record the model and serial number of every propane appliance that you have. Then the new propane company will check all "fittings" to make sure that they are up to date. Lately, I have heard that these propane companies are checking to see if the lines are grounded. Many are not. So it's probably best to shop around and get one good comapny and stick with them.

The Following User Says Thank You to TheProfessor For This Useful Post:
Whimsey (08-12-2012)

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Whimsey (08-12-2012)

08-12-2012, 06:23 AM	#8
wifi Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Lakes Region Posts: 1,321 Thanks: 282 Thanked 287 Times in 169 Posts	They can liquify natural gas and transport it by truck or ship, but in order to liquify it, they have to bring it down to (lower than) -200F and maintain the tanks there while they are transporting it. Might not be too efficient for the homeowner to do.