New Boaters Organization

[winnilaker]

Does Winnipesaukee and New Hampshire boaters need a non-profit organization that tries and protects the rights for all boaters? Promotes boating safety? Doesn't alienate boaters based on what they choose to use?

I guess this would be a tough one since people have different opinions, but there has to be a majority out there that share some common views. With new laws coming up and with ones that should be introduced, I would think the majority of those boaters need a medium to be well informed of all issues and a medium to express their issues.

[PROPELLER]

I know from reading Motorboating, the Boat US publication & other various sources that there are organizations around the country that have lobbies & stick up for boaters when issues arise. Boat US even has a voluntary contribution on their membership to help fund this kind of activity.

I think you raise a good point & if there was such an organization it may be very helpful on the many issues that affect boating on all NH bodies of water & Winni specifically.

[FormulaOutlaw]

Here in Florida we have two primary boater's advocate groups. "Standing Watch" and "Citizens for Florida's Waterways". If you like I could give you the email address and website that could provide you with a wealth of information. FO

[WeirsBeachBoater]

We need someone who can represent us, boaters who are being unfairly attacked and catergorized due to the type of boats we enjoy!

[frank m.]

Winnilaker,
You are in luck. Just such an organization has recently been formed. Please go to www.winnfabs.com to join and find out how you can help protect the rights of ALL boaters.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Wrong side of the coin!!!

[winnilaker]

I went to Winnfabs.com and only found information which appears to view folks with powerboats to be doing something bad. You can view my previous posts, I don't believe in Winnfabs.com views, since they don't represent the majority of boaters and all types of boaters.

I formed an organization 2 years http://www.nhrba.com
New Hampshire Recreational Boaters Association. Its filed with the State of NH as a non-profit. I have legal representation, address and a real bank account. Anybody can take a look at it, I haven't updated it in a while, but I would like to get this thing off the ground with real directors and a board. Anybody interested in helping shape an organization that will treat all boaters with the same respect and is focused on promoting boating safety email me at info@nhrba.com

P.S. interesting point on winnfabs.com. I went to whois.net which tells me who registered the site (mr. W) his information and phone number where there on Monday, but by Tuesday they paid the extra $9 to have the information hidden as if they were hiding something. I did save the information but will refrain from disclosure since they obviously didn't want it promoted.

[03810]

FYI, the speed limit bill is currently being "retained in committee" which means the Resource Committee will study it over the summer.

[restauranteer]

Originally Posted by winnilaker

I formed an organization 2 years http://www.nhrba.com
New Hampshire Recreational Boaters Association. Its filed with the State of NH as a non-profit. I have legal representation, address and a real bank account. Anybody can take a look at it

I checked you and your site out, also verified your "legit" claims through the Secretary of State's office. Congrats on being a properly filed above board entity, unlike (apparently) the super secret society at Winnfabs. Still not sure how I feel about the issue, and don't own a boat. But if I did, I would lean more towards an organization like yours that encompassed all boater concerns, vice the myopic view of the handful of naysayers representing the antis of the Winni!

Good luck, and a very nice site that you have there. I'll tell my boat owning kids about it and try to spread the word for you....

Bon Appetit and Salute!

[overlook]

Originally Posted by frank m.

Winnilaker,
You are in luck. Just such an organization has recently been formed. Please go to www.winnfabs.com to join and find out how you can help protect the rights of ALL boaters.

I have attempted to contact them, and had no reply. " The rights of all boaters" I don't think so.

[ITD]

In Massachusetts, its a pretty serious fine if you form a committee to affect a piece of legislation without registering it, especially if you accept contributions, is it the same in NH?

[Fat Jack]

I checked out this NHRBA site, but it appears to be another front for the cigarette boat only crowd. And all of the members list "Partying" as one of their primary interests. I get a quick sense where that is headed. Can't there be something that really represents the average guy who just wants to appreciate the lake? Seems like everyone has a narrow agenda these days. I'm starting to lean towards the feeling that 45MPH is not that bad. It's much faster than I'd ever want to go, and seems like a pretty fair compromise, all things considered. Seems like that's the direction we should all be headed if we are ever going to stop the bickering...looking for such a compromise. I had been feeling that the speed limit bill was just another attempt to take away our rights, until I started to think about how fast 45MPH really is on water. When we sit at our computers in the wintertime, it sounds restrictive. But when you are in a boat, you start to wonder why anyone would think they need to go any faster. It's almost equivalent to arguing about a 100MPH limit on the highways. As that restaurant guy will surely tell you after he reviews all of my posts for the past ten years and writes up a summary about me, I'm generally all in favor of personal rights, but I'd never side with people arguing that a 100MPH highway speed limit is too low. So how did I get myself to where I was agreeing that a 45MPH lake limit was too low?
FJ

[restauranteer]

Originally Posted by Fat Jack

I checked out this NHRBA site... And all of the members list "Partying" as one of their primary interests FJ

That's funny, I've gone back and read & re-read everything on that site a number of times now, and I can't find any reference to "partying", as you have claimed.

Originally Posted by Fat Jack

As that restaurant guy will surely tell you after he reviews all of my posts for the past ten years and writes up a summary about me

Didn't have to go back ten years to find you have a history of inflammatory and just plain, how can I put this delicately, less than truthful posts. But once again, you are entitled to your own opinion and welcomed, I am sure , to try and sway ours. It just isn't polite attempting to accomplish that by being dishonest.

Bon apetit!

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by restauranteer

That's funny, I've gone back and read & re-read everything on that site a number of times now, and I can't find any reference to "partying", as you have claimed.

Resty,
I'm surprised that a guy with your obvious expertise in researching was stifled so easily. You must not have been trying. Perhaps you did not want to find it. I'll see if Don will let me post the profiles of the members. Will you then apologize?
And since you are such a master fact-finder, perhaps you can help me find something;
I have read the state constitution from front to back and have reviewed the statutes several times, but am unable to find any reference whatsoever to this oft-mentioned "right to drive a boat very fast on public waters". I do find numerous places where the right to recreate on and have access to our public waters is mentioned, but no rights to go dangerously fast. Can you help me with this? Seriously. If you can show me where the driving of a boat at any desired speed is defined as a constitutional or lawful right, I will send a fat check into NHBRA.
FJ

[winnilaker]

Section 270:29-a
270:29-a Careless and Negligent Operation of Boats. – Any person who shall operate a power boat upon any waters of the state in a careless and negligent manner or so that the lives and safety of the public are endangered shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

But what I am curious is how you are determining a relationship between NHRBA and a front for a cigarette crowd. I'm collecting all the membership applications so far and the majority are not cigarette(GBFL) owners.

As for Don posting a listing of members, if a list of members has been taken malicioulsy and without consent and posted, may Don find a nice letter from an attorney in his mail.

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by winnilaker

270:29-a Careless and Negligent Operation of Boats. – Any person who shall operate a power boat upon any waters of the state in a careless and negligent manner or so that the lives and safety of the public are endangered shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

Is this your answer to my request for evidence that driving fast is a right??? Or is this actually one of the statutes that is presently being cited against speeding drivers because the MP has no speed law to cite them with? Isn't this actually one of the very reasons there are presently no statistics on speeding, because there are no measurements even being taken and no laws to cite?

Originally Posted by winnilaker

But what I am curious is how you are determining a relationship between NHRBA and a front for a cigarette crowd. I'm collecting all the membership applications so far and the majority are not cigarette(GBFL) owners.

Just like YOU are not a GFBL owner right now, but what does that have to do with your intentions? Please Erwin, just go back and read your own posts on the other forums. Want me to post them here? And are you implying that, should all these non-GFBL members elect a board that supports HB162, you will go along with that? C'mon. That sounds like the "democracy" you speak of, so if you are man enough to agree to that, please say so, emphatically, on this forum. Then me and all my salmon fishing associates will sign right up and vote ourselves in.

Originally Posted by winnilaker

As for Don posting a listing of members, if a list of members has been taken malicioulsy and without consent and posted, may Don find a nice letter from an attorney in his mail.

Not that I expect Don would want to get dragged into this, but information publicly posted on one site, regardless of intent, can be lawfully reposted on ANY other public site (provided proper credit is given if it contains copyrighted material). Threatening a lawsuit is just silly. Letters from attorneys are cheap (especially, I assume, from attorneys of the caliber you have hired). Any lawyer who would write such a letter without grounds would have to know that it would be brought to the immediate attention of the NH Bar. You should stick to IT, law is not your strong suit.

FJ

[winnilaker]

Well, the response has exceed my expectations. Thanks for all the emails, I hope I was able to respond to all of them. As restauranteer mentioned, NHRBA is registered, legit and plans to make a difference in New Hampshire boating.

Look forward to meeting all that emailed me. And the group that started this looks forward to your help to promote boating safety and equal boating rights.

[Boater]

I think boaters should organize to protect their interests but let's be honest here, what you are proposing is a group to protect the interests of GFBL boat owners.

If I was in favor of a speed limit or other restrictions I doubt I would be welcome. Since, as someone pointed out, less than 5% of the boats on the lake are the offshore type would the interests of the other 95% small boat owners be properly represented in your group? I doubt it.

Go ahead and fight for your interests, just be honest about who you are representing.

[winnilaker]

I'm perfectly happy going 35-45 mph everywhere I go. And that's incorrect that about not wanting folks who want a speed limit to join. Honestly I think there are circumstances that speed limits make sense. For example, Weirs bay can get a little scary on a Saturday, you have folks going from Meredith to Governor island bridge and Weirs to past Governor's. But putting a lake wide speed limit doesn't seem fair for those who go out to the boards and want to enjoy a boat that's designed to go above 45mph.

But what I don't like is the negative image that is protrayed about boaters that have boats that go fast and that they are the cause of safety concerns. My vision is have group of boaters from all facets, I think through education and communication, a bridge between facts and safety can be crossed with negative image and personal preference. Having a legit organization where the democracy governs its direction should be a good thing.

[winnilaker]

Who I am representing:
Some of my views
I think we need more public access to lakes. What organization currently fights for that?
I think the current limit for exhaust level is too high. I wouldn't mind boats being quieter. That should make the GFBL group happy.
I want to make it stricker to get a boating license without proper education. That should make the rental companies happy.
I think its wrong that the state won't allow a local marina to help with the rebate program for its customers. Who's going to fight for that?

I'm not about GFBL and certianly hope the NHRBA is not as well or I will get out.

[Shorline]

I welcome the opportunity for responsible boaters to have proper representation in the legislature. My observation over the past several years has been that there is a vociferous minority of individuals who have latched on to certain legislatures in order to stake their claim to boating on Lake Winnipesauke. A key concern on mine is that the majority of the boating related bills are without any statistical or factual merit backing them up. Presenting a bill based on personal opinion with no safety or environmental hard data behind it is irresponsible, and a waste of our representative’s time. We are all here to share the recreational resource that Lake Winnipesauke has to offer. I am eager to be involved in this organization, to put an end to “boat class” segregation, and discrimination when it comes to legislating who has greater rights to our lake’s use.

[Gonzo]

I just joined NHRBA and recommend those who share views on equal rights for all boaters to join. I'm excited about being able to make a difference with a new young organization like this.

I did check out the organization before joining and was impressed that they had all their paperwork done and are registered with the state.

I personally have been going to the legislative meetings in Concord on the speed limit and rafting bills and voted against them.

I do not have a go fast boat and still I support the efforts of an organization like NHRBA.

I would stongly suggest joining this organization. www.nhrba.com

[WeirsBeachBoater]

After some research, I am going to sign on with the NHRBA. I believe that their intentions are good, and I am all for some representation for all boaters in the state. I spend probably more time than most out on Winni and I have seen infractions caused by every style boat imaginable. The state needs better education and criteria for boaters, this online test is a joke, one family member who is knowledgeable ends up doing the test for the whole family.... Hows that working? Good luck to the NHRBA!!!

[overlook]

Originally Posted by winnilaker

I'm perfectly happy going 35-45 mph everywhere I go. And that's incorrect that about not wanting folks who want a speed limit to join. Honestly I think there are circumstances that speed limits make sense. For example, Weirs bay can get a little scary on a Saturday, you have folks going from Meredith to Governor island bridge and Weirs to past Governor's. But putting a lake wide speed limit doesn't seem fair for those who go out to the boards and want to enjoy a boat that's designed to go above 45mph.

A possible solution is to have a no wake or headway speed only between Governors and Eagle. I have noticed that the markers have been moved closer. MP has been seen patrolling that area more often than not, most busy days one would have to go headway speed there anyways.
This would be a possible solution that would not discriminate.

[frank m.]

Originally Posted by winnilaker

that's incorrect that about not wanting folks who want a speed limit to join...My vision is have group of boaters from all facets...Having a legit organization where the democracy governs its direction should be a good thing.

Custie,
I have joined NHRBA. I hope what you say above is true and that you will indeed give equal billing to voices from all sides. I will, of course be advocating passionately FOR a speed limit and recruiting to NHRBA people who support the same. I expect that many members from Winnfabs will join me. I hope that we will be able to take part in the democratic process you describe and can be involved in the board elections. In fact, if the associate is truly set up for the purpose you describe, we actually share the same goals. We look forward to the May 6 strategy session with Director Barrett, and I have already contacted a reporter about joining us. I will hopefully bring a radar gun that was designed specifically for marine use and that has been used effectively by hundreds of marine patrol agencies across the country. I have even been speaking with another agency about coming here to teach our MP how to accurately measure boat speeds. I agree that the key here is education. We need to educate as many NH citizens as possible about how they can participate in this issue and make their opinions known. And we need to educate our MP on the success of speed limit laws and high conviction rates on other lakes. All I ask is that we limit participation in this process to actual NH citizens and keep the Floridians, Californians, and Missourans out of our affairs. I'm sure you will agree that this is the business of the citizens of NH.
Also, as a prerequisite to registering for your site, I had to provide my personal information. I trust that will not be released to anyone.
I look forward to working with you.
Frank

[Tyler]

I think you will find a bunch of good folks over at NHRBA, I am also a member and will gladly listen to your thoughts on a speed limit as I am sure all will. For the meeting on May 6th along with the hardware and other items you indicated you will bring might I suggest you bring any data you have that shows a speed limit is needed on Winnipesaukee, not some other body of water elsewhere, Lake Winnipesaukee. To be quite frank I do not think you or anyone else will get very far with Mr. Barrett or our legislature if you do not provide facts, not emotion on this LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE issue. Look forward to it.

[frank m.]

Tyler,
In fact, all that information and data is already there, right in MP's files. It's just a matter of getting him to look for it. Mr. Barrett is a very intelligent fellow, I have dealt with him before. I'm sure that once he sees we are all working together he will be more than agreeable to cooperate with us. For instance, we can point out the two accidents last year involving boats travelling alone at high speed and losing control on Winnipesaukee. The information is all right in MP's files, but they have had these accidents mis-filed as "operator error" because there was no speeding violation to cite at that time. That's why the Director mistakenly said there have not been any recent speed-related accidents. All we have to do is show him where to find them. Every year has had at least a few accidents like this. I will print out articles from the Citizen's on-line archives and when we get there we can dig out the relevant MP files to show him how many speed-related incidents have been mis-categorized. I appreciate your cooperation with this and look forward to working with you.
Frank

[pm203]

Instead of focusing on the speed issue,why dont you focus on PWC and other dangerous uneducated boaters on the lake.National and local statistics do not back up speed as an issue.Plus,with the majority of marina and business owners opposing a speed limit,your chance of getting a speed limit law passed is futile to none.Lets wake up and put the focus where it should be.

[Cal]

Frank,
I believe one of those accidents involved an operator who was seen doing figure eights at high speed...that is operator error or more so operator ignorance or foolishness. The same could have happened at a lower speed of say 45 mph.

[GWC...]

The big problem on the Lake is the lack of common courtesy.

A thread has been started for the discussion of a speed limit on the Lake.

So, are any of you who are discussing the speed limit on this thread capable of common courtesy?

Will winnilaker finally be allowed opinions regarding his new boating organization, on this thread?

Time will tell…

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by frank m.

We look forward to the May 6 strategy session with Director Barrett

What is this "May 6 strategy session"? What time? Where? Is anyone invited?

[winnilaker]

FAT HACK, I would welcome all boaters and I'll state right here and for everyone to read, that if a boaters organization that encompasses all facets of the boater community, by democracy, votes to side with a speed limit, doesn't mean I won't agree, but if the majority of the recreational boaters decide it would be best, then so be it. I would still rather know that the boaters are pushing through laws then a few people that have problems with the GFBL crowd.

By the way I prefer Custie. Any other information you want from me, my address, kids names etc. I'm not afraid to publish my own info, now a challenge to you to come out from your hiding.

[ApS]

Can't we all...just get along?

— Rodney King

[winnilaker]

Thank you, my point exactly.

[Skip]

Wow, interesting discussion (to say the least ).

My $.02

Is there room for intelligent debate on the possibility of speed limits on public bodies of water in New Hampshire? Of course, but should the debate be solely limited to Lake Winnipesaukee? Should any rational discussion include all public bodies of water and be based on the unique circumstances each presents?

Should the debate also bring all parties to the table, pro and con? Integral to an acceptable outcome also requires substantial input of the law enforcement community, in particular the Marine Patrol. What good is any legislation if not enforceable, whether by design or resistance?

And should we talking about adding more responsibilities to an agency that many agree is completely overwhelmed, or should the first course of action be to address funding and manpower issues within the Department of Safety? Should we first insist on modifying existing law so that it is enforceable before adding additional piecemeal legislation? For example, should the present modest fine schedule be enhanced dramatically, as in the case of motorcycle exhaust violations, to make it financially reckless to not be familiar with present boating requirements?

I am sure the intentions of the legislator that filed HB 162 are honorable. However, way too many questions remain on the table for serious consideration of the legislation as presently held in committee. Quite frankly, if passed in its present state, you will have yet another statute that will be nearly impossible to enforce on a fair and consistent basis given the extremely limited tools the State has to work with. And what good to anyone is yet another law on the books that remains ignored by the public at large?

Too bad this discussion denigrated into personal attacks, there are obviously experienced boaters perusing this site, both pro & con on the issue, that have the ability to come to a rational compromise on this emotional issue. And claims that legislators will vote based on emotions wrought from details of a recent death, or sarcastic allegations that they will follow a money trail, show complete ignorance of how things actually work in Concord.

Most legislators will follow the path of compromise, the solution that will probably make no one individual or group completely happy, but a piece of legislation that everyone can live with.

When reasonable discourse provides reasonable compromise, perhaps time will come for reasonable legislation.

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by winnilaker

if the majority of the recreational boaters decide it would be best, then so be it.

Will you be allowing and encouraging GFBL members to each vote "60-70" times like in Tampa? Is that how you guys define "democracy"?

[winnilaker]

to understand the hatred towards me. But I went back and added up all posts for and against the speed limit on the forum. I don't need to give you the actual ratio do I (just look at the poll). If an organization was to form and present a statement based on that ratio, your opinion would be lost in the waves. But if you made me and the other members as party animals wanting nothing more than a free for all on the lake, you could gain support. Does this sound accurate?

I laid it out on the line that I want NHRBA to be legit, real democracy (I don't know what you are referring to in Tampa), communication among all types of boaters.

How about I give you a free membership to join? However a rule for NHRBA will be not hide behind a code name. Want to take me up on that offer?

Let's target bad boaters not bad boats.

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by winnilaker

Let's target bad boaters not bad boats.

I define bad boaters as those who drive over 45MPH in the day or 25MPH at night. Let's target them.

I've seen some of the threatening stuff that you guys have been saying about APS, his knees, his children, etc, over on the other sites. You guys might not have to be afraid for your safety as we do when we take a side against you. No way am I telling you where I live. Why do you need to know?

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by Audiofn

This is about a forum for ALL boaters to voice their concerns.

Jon,
This is also a forum about Winnipesaukee issues. But everytime a GFBL issue comes up anywhere, all you guys from all over the country band together like a swarm of bees. You did it in Tampa. You did it in Ohio. You flood our local forum with your nation-wide opinions. Lake Winnipesaukee is a NH citizen owned water body, and WE, the citizens of NH, should be the only ones deciding its fate, not people from Fort Lauderdale, New Jersey, Canada, Maine, and Massachusetts. By my observation, the VAST majority of these offshore boats bear out-of-NH registrations. NH does not even collect a registration fee from them. We don't even have a count on them. They gas up their 300-gallon tanks on the way up through NJ and leave its MTBE in our water. They buy their weekend's beer and tequila in Connecticut and leave its resulting urine in our water. Except for all the money they spend at the Naswa, they contribute zilch to our economy. They scare away the peaceful tourists that we really want. They scare families off the lake. This is just the best and most convenient playground they could find, and we are maintaining it for them at our expense. They care nothing about this lake except that it has always tolerated their behavior and looked the other way under the mistaken belief that all this was financially beneficial to us. They leave their trash behind knowing we will have it all cleaned up for them by the next weekend. We who really own this lake, the real right-owners here, must dodge them every weekend and tie our boats to our docks to stay out of their way.
Its just time for NH to take back our lake. These guys can just as easily trailer their boats up to a different playground every weekend like Lake George (oh ya, that one is off limits to them now too).
You and Custie can say all you want that "its not the boats, its the behavior", but if you truly cared about restoring order to this lake, you'd agree that something simply has to be done, and this does not target the boats, it targets the behavior. The 150 foot rule and the noise law are jokes. We need to deter these yahoos from trailering their boats up here every weekend. You are either one of them or you are against them. If you don't need to go 70 MPH to enjoy the lake as you say, if you truly care about the rights of others, if you truly care about Lake Winnipesaukee, then stop siding with those **** and hiding behind the "live free or die" argument, and work with the rest of us to fix the huge problem that has destroyed this lake for so many of us...crazily high speeds and the noise that goes hand-in-hand with it. Once the speeding is gone, the idiots will go, the noise they make will go, the danger that they "statistically" have nothing to do with will go, and the good people of NH, like me and supposedly you, can enjoy the lake again in some peace. Would you and Custie honestly feel comfortable sending your parents out in a 21-foot boat to take your kids to get an ice cream on this lake on a July weekend? C'mon!

[codeman671]

Wow, what a statement. Funny thing is that even though I am against a speed limit and do not want to push the GFBL off the lake I do have to agree with some of Fat Jack's statements on this one. I am a property owner on the lake and a NH resident. I do get irritated with people who do not keep their money where they play however I doubt that people would fill their tanks far south of NH with 300 gallons of fuel and trailer the extra 1800-2000lbs of extra weight up instead of filling here. If they do then they probably just spent more gas to get it here and their ignorance shines. I think that is is foolish not to have boats used in NH registered in NH, we should be making money on this and charging out of state rates just like they do with snowmobiles. I think that canning the reciprocity in snowmobile registrations is a good thing.

As far as people from Mass and Maine having a say, well they should. I would guess that there is a large population of properties owned around the lake are owned by people from Mass and Maine, particularly Mass.

I do get frustrated with the noise but honestly find Harleys and other loud bikes to be more irritating and reckless. I would love to see a sound comparison of bikes and GFBL's by one of the more techno-related posters on this site. How many bike accident related deaths happen in the lakes region per year compared to fatalities from boat accidents?

I do not care for the influx of tourists but it does help our economy. I like our state and personally hate it when I have to go south of the border. The last time I made a M-hole statement on here I got thrashed on so I will refrain. There are good people and bad people from south of the border, unfortunately the lakes region seems to pick up a lot of the bad ones who are reckless on land and water. And are just plain rude...

Where I differ is that I do still say it is the people, not the boats. If a 36' baja has an exhaust system that diverts under water instead of out the hull and cruises the lake at 35mph people will still complain.

[winnilaker]

Jack, can you believe it, we agree on something. I don't feel comfortable sending my family out on 21 ft boat on 4th of July weekend. Now my reasons are different.

Too many boats
Too many inexperience boaters
Too many big boats that cause real big wakes, I think the Sophie has the biggest wake, but all the cabin cruisers can also cause big wakes. And when they come through eagle and governors and you have 10 boats trying to fit through from both directions, its down right scary.

I agree with your out of staters comments to some degree.

But in each of those occasions, it not just the GBFL crowd

So yes I agree something has to be done, but I don't support targeting 1 type of boater to cut off first. Because what's next, let's ban of jetskis, then what's after that, ban cabin cruisers and so on and so on..... until the only type of boat left is the type you drive.

Should we limit the number of boats on the lake?
Should we have stricker education?
Should cabin cruisers AND GBLFs be forced to go headway when going between certian areas of the lake that are more dangerous then others.

Can't you see my point? Are you afraid of GBFL boaters only? Was there an occasion and location where it happened? I have to believe that you would be afraid of getting hit by an out of stater doing 40 mph in a 22ft bow rider as well. Or does that not hurt as much, so you can live with it.

I've seen the "You Guys" comment in more than one of your posts. For the record, I'm not one of those guys. I have never threatened anyone and would be P*****D off if any of my friends or members of NHRBA would do that. Check my other site, you obviously know about, I'm about charity and preserving rights for all to enjoy the lake. And do some more research about me personally and see what kind of person I am. There are a few folks around the lake that know me.

Custie

[winnilaker]

Jack,
This may be hard, but in your next post. Make a statement about facts and real situations without calling people idiots, yahoos or whatever else Don had to edit out. There has to be something other than your personal feelings toward that type of boater inorder for any of us to make progress in this discussion. Because idiots, yahoos and ***** can apply to all types of boaters.

The 'Hack' comment was about your intelligent ability to research information. I read through all my posts, I don't believe I negatively called anyone anything, I used sacrasm once. But if I did, shame on me.

And if anyone can read through my posts and determine that what I want to accomplish from NHRBA is not for the best interests for all types of boaters to enjoy the lake, please post and let me know, so that I can clarify it.

I do have one confession, NHRBA was designed for all New hampshire boaters not just lake Winnipesaukee, so if that's a conflict, let me know and we'll work through how to change its charter such that Lake Winnipesaukee boaters are well represented when voting on Lake Winnipesaukee issues.

And lastly I don't want NHRBA to be a GFBL focused membership. If you all feel it would be impossible to create an organization that can have constructive communication to solve real boating issues, then I will send all the membership fees back, kill NHRBA and then just use my own network of boating friends to push and fight my personal objectives.

Later,
Custie

p.s. And after I thought about, I don't want your address or who you are. I have received too many emails wanting to know who this Fat Jack guy is and how he is really making them mad and I don't want the burden on my shoulders.

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by winnilaker

FAT HACK, ... I prefer Custie.

And I prefer Jack.

[KonaChick]

I really support the idea of limiting boats on Lake Winni..not size but numbers. One thing we probably all agree on is that there are way too many out there on any given weekend in the summer which makes for MANY close calls and accidents. I know people have reported accidents and close call incidents on the forum in the past but if this forum were devoted to that topic only i bet it would be filled with many different stories on any given day during the summer. Anyway, does anyone have any logical ideas how the number of boats that go into Winni could be limited? Any thoughts?

[winnilaker]

My points have been made.

PROPELLER, Audiofn, FormulaOutlaw, WeirsBeachBoater, restauranteer, Skip, Gonzo, Shorline, SIKSUKR, KonaChick, overlook and the others that sent emails to me and have registered on NHRBA.com look forward to working with you to talk about ideas such as boat limits, out of stater fees for using boats in NH, promoting safety, etc. even speed limits. But it I don't need the stress to check this forum and NHRBA's members only forum for constructive communication.
There's 2 sides, so let it be that way. Behind those you don't know or behind those you can get to know.

See ya. Bash me til I'm blue in the face.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

The noise law is a joke, does not work, and can never be made to work.

I would have to disagree on this. It does work, or at least it did in my case. I was subject to a DB check last year. My average pass was around 84 db vs the 82 db standard. I was surprised considering I had a stock Corsa exhaust, and they are guaranteed to meet all state requirements. I went back to the boathouse, took apart my exhaust, and found I had a couple of broken baffles. Replaced them and did some other work, and voila, retested at 78 db.

What I think we do need is some sort of voluntary db check by the MP. If you think the 82 db limit is too high, propose a change to your state reps (if you're a resident).

Most people, I'm sure, want to be in compliance, but like me, don't realize they aren't, and have no way of knowing.

My message to all is simple, let's try to do some constructive things instead of bashing. Get involved in local boating organizations. I for one belong to two, and probably spend 10 hours a week (in the summer) volunteering my time to boater saftey and education efforts. Like the old Black Panther saying (I know I'm dating myself), you're either part of the problem or part of the solution. Pick a side.

[Von Bongo]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

I really support the idea of limiting boats on Lake Winni..not size but numbers. One thing we probably all agree on is that there are way too many out there on any given weekend in the summer which makes for MANY close calls and accidents.

Welcome to Anylake USA. If you venture to ANY decent lake in the US from Lake of the Ozarks to my home lake of Lake Maloney in Central Nebraska you will find the same complaint (never seen a boat over 24 feet on maloney), heck even in some respects on the Missouri river where I have done some boating. May be new to your lake but not to most others. Not saying it isn't an issue, just saying it's not unique by any means.

What I have found for example is at LOTO if you want to ski on memorial day you do it before 10am or after 8pm, the rest of the day hit a cove, the waterpark, golf course or whatever.

You want to limit boat traffic, limit all infrastructure and waterfront development, if you can't get a burger, build a cabin or get gas on the lake it will really cut down on boat traffic.

[frank m.]

Originally Posted by winnilaker

I would welcome all boaters.

Custie,
As explained in my earlier response, I have joined NHRBA. But despite my most gracious efforts to begin a civilized dialogue and work towards the kind of compromise you describe, I am not being made to feel very "welcomed".

First, one of my posts from this forum, seeking support for the Black Cove loons, was posted and framed as if one cannot be a member if he cares about loons. For soem reason I just do not get, it was supposed to make the remaining members "aware" of my "anti-cause" background, headed "Read & heed:"

Additionally, there is outright hostility towards me and any discussiion with me;
"I am done discussing this with you on this or any other site, ",
"Be part of the team, not the problem. "
"you are way out of line suggesting only NH citizens be allowed to decide this"

And several statements are clearly aimed to intimidate;
"You've joined the wrong group",
"I will enjoy meeting you and carrying on this debate face to face!"
"see you on the 6th"

And your silence during all this is deafening.

It has only been a few hours since I joined, and it is becoming clear that this might not be the open association you think it is. Please help. I sincerely want to cooperate with you on this. Are these members representative of the rest? Is this really an association where all boaters are welcome?
frank m.

[codeman671]

Frank, you are correct in that Director Barrett is an intelligent person. I know him personally. Actually I am somewhat related. But don't you think that he is well aware of how the two accidents in question are filed??? I am sure he had something to do it! I am sure he has looked at them plenty of times and was directly involved on the investigations...If only 2 serious accidents are related to speed how many that you are not mentioning are not related to excessive speed (if in fact that was the ultimate cause of these two)? Plenty I am sure.

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by winnilaker

Does Winnipesaukee and New Hampshire boaters need a non-profit organization that tries and protects the rights for all boaters? Promotes boating safety? Doesn't alienate boaters based on what they choose to use?

I guess this would be a tough one since people have different opinions, but there has to be a majority out there that share some common views. With new laws coming up and with ones that should be introduced, I would think the majority of those boaters need a medium to be well informed of all issues and a medium to express their issues.

There is a non-bias non-profit organization that does work to protect the rights of boaters, promote boating safety and boater education - Lakes Region Sail & Power Squadron. http://www.lrsps.org/. It is the local division of the National United States Power Squadron http://www.usps.org/national/. LRSPS had representation at the recent HB162 in Concord. LRSPS holds Boating Safety classes; perform vessel safety checks around all of New Hampshire's lakes; hold Boat Smart classes to obtain the Boaters Certificates; provide support to local marinas; just to name a few things we do.

Take a cruise of the two websites. If you are interested in becoming a member or if ANY ONE is interested in becoming a member - please let me know and I WILL help you ..

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by winnilaker

Does Winnipesaukee and New Hampshire boaters need a non-profit organization that tries and protects the rights for all boaters? Promotes boating safety? Doesn't alienate boaters based on what they choose to use?

I guess this would be a tough one since people have different opinions, but there has to be a majority out there that share some common views. With new laws coming up and with ones that should be introduced, I would think the majority of those boaters need a medium to be well informed of all issues and a medium to express their issues.

Now, start your own thread about kayaking and how long you have been in the Lake region and your improper emergency backup plan if kayaking on the Lake after dark, please, for your sake - your mind is no match for mine.

Again, express your opinion regarding the need for a boating organization in the Lake area, move on, and stop hijacking this thread.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by GWC...

Now, start your own thread about kayaking and how long you have been in the Lake region and your improper emergency backup plan if kayaking on the Lake after dark, please, for your sake - your mind is no match for mine.

Again, express your opinion regarding the need for a boating organization in the Lake area, move on, and stop hijacking this thread.

How am I hijacking this thread? My first post in this thread was in response to a post that suggested that smaller and slower boats not be allowed on a large lake. Every other post that I've made in this thread (including this one) has been to reply to posts that were directed at me. Some of those posts contained misinformation about me and what I had written.

For a thread supposedly about an organization to "represent all boaters", you guys have repeatedly insulted me and all paddlers.

And when I stand up for myself, I'm attacked for my "opinions", even though I'm one of the few people here who has even bothered to post actual facts.

So what am I doing wrong? I won't be bullied out of this or any other discussion, just because my views are different from the majority. I have just as much right to post here as any other member of this forum.

As far as my "improper emergency backup plan", according to the NH boating regulations, "Vessels that are paddled, poled, or rowed require only an all-around white light." Mine even flashes. I never intend to be out on any lake at night (and I never have been), so technically I don't have to have any lighting at all, but I still carry emergency lighting. Yet you actually criticized me for doing so, and then have the nerve to post: "please, for your sake - your mind is no match for mine". How arrogant!

If you don't want me to reply, then stop directing posts at me.

[PROPELLER]

Evenstar, It is too bad this thread deteriorated into a debate about the speed limit. That was not the intention of Winnilaker. You & I as well as many others participated & we are all to blame. Having said that, please don't paint me as argumenative when you have participated equally in this debate. Have you heard the saying "it takes two to tango".

I state my opinions just like YOU & everyone else on this forum & my opinions do not come across as gospel anymore than YOURS or anyone else. So please do not paint yourself as the innocent bystander who has been attacked.

Quabbin & Wachusett resevoirs in my opinion were not relevant(I have already stated why SEVERAL times so I won't repeat it) If you do not understand why then I can't help you. Its been clearly stated.

You keep saying you are stating facts. I listened to a host on an AM talk show this AM praise a guest host for having conviction for his opinions & then backing them up with factual, DOCUMENTED evidence. Not emotion, feelings, rumors & innuendo. This is what I see the speed limit supporters & WinnFABS using to support HB162, EMOTION, FEELINGS, RUMORS & INNUENDO. I do not see any factual, empirical, documented evidence on Lake Winnipesaukee to show that speed is a problem.

As far as your post stating you were only responding to a post directed at you, if you read your first post on this thread you were not responding to a post directed at YOU. Von Bongo did not direct the post to you, he was not putting down paddlers. You chose to enter the debate on your own.

I respect everyones right to have an opinion. But no I do not always accept everyones view. If you want people to just accept what you say without question that sounds like GOSPEL to me. Apparently you do not accept some of my views as well as others on this forum. Thats ok, your entitled but don't expect your views to go unchallenged.

P.S. You don't need to highlight my posts when responding. I know what I wrote.

[BroadHopper]

Obviously no one is jumping on the bandwagon with Evenstar. He can't lead and certainly can't follow us. He must get out of the way.

I reccomend to the Webmaster that this thread be close.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Obviously no one is jumping on the bandwagon with Evenstar. He can't lead and certainly can't follow us. He must get out of the way.

Of course no one is backing me up, as most of you are powerboaters.

I'm not trying to lead and I certainly don't wish to follow anyone with your additude. But I'm not getting out of the way either.

BTW: I'm a she.

[Seaplane Pilot]

This speed limit is total rubbish. More evidence that the liberals are trying to help us decide what's best for ourselves. I'm the latest member to join NHRBA in hopes that we can stop this speed limit mess - I'll do whatever I can to help. We are not living as we did 50 years ago - why should we expect the lake to be as it was 50 years ago. If you don't like it, move to northern Maine. It's never going to change.

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

More evidence that the liberals are trying to help us decide what's best for ourselves.

You are calling us the "liberals"? I'm no liberal. All this time, we were thinking that you guys were the "liberals", claiming that a speed limit would be a violation of your civil rights and was just another attempt by the "fat cat" lakefront owners to claim ownership of the water. If you think this is a "liberal/conservative" issue and you are not a "liberal", you probably should be on our side.

[Evenstar]

Propeller, even though several things that you wrote are totally wrong (Please read what I and others actually wrote in this thread), this time I am not going to agrue with you. I'm really not here to argue, but to present a non-powerboat viewpoint.

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by PROPELLER

That was not the intention of Winnilaker.

Do you really think that was not his intention? Do you really believe that NHRBA is a "boating safety" association and was founded for the good of "all boaters"? Was it the image of the sail boat on the home page that fooled you? Do you really think that Custie is not using NHRBA solely as a mechanism to fight the speed limit bill? Do you really think NHRBA is not just a poorly disguised derivative of the Offshore Only and Winnilaker groups? Are you one of those who donated money under the belief that this was not an offshore boaters group? Where did you expect this thread to go? Seems to me that any mention of NHRBA or post from Winnilaker is going to immediately subject a thread into becoming a speed limit discussion. You have been on the other forums, so you surely know the reasons for that.
Hopefully, now that the bill has expired, we can go back to discussing other issues. Too bad it requires two years before we can resubmit a bill, but you can be sure that it will be submitted as soon as it is possible. By then, there will likely be a few new "incidents" to fuel the debate. Till then, let's talk about something else.

[winnilaker]

Frank, as you saw in our NHRBA forum. I will fight for all to be heard.

My post in that forum for others to know what I mean.

From NHRBA's forum:
Frank is entitled to his views. I went out of way to inform people on winn' forum that all are welcome. I won't support an org that is any other way
.....
I know there is emotion, but thoughtout approaches and communication on how to build NHRBA is more important. Can everyone agree on this vision with me?

Thanks,
Custie


P.S. sorry I was away on a business trip, and I wanted to take a vacation next week. What will happen then?

[frank m.]

Custie,
Thanks. I hope that those who seem to want to spend their time bashing me instead of working with me will now let it go. My concerns for loons and eagles and opposition to swim raft permitting don't seem to be reasons to disqualify me from your group. I hope I will not need to defend those positions anymore.

Additionally, it makes it hard for me to work with guys like Moose (#482), when he posts stuff like this about me on the other offshore forum;
"One of the speed limit people (Frank m) just posted on the other site. Seems he wants to and has joined the good guys (www.nhrba.com) and get this, he want's to attend a meeting they (NHRBA) are scheduling with marine patrol BUT he does not want anyone who is not a New Hampshire citizen to be allowed to participate or be allowed to discuss the boating issues on Lake Winnipesaukee!!! These folks just continue to dig their hole deeper with this over the top attitude. I LOVE IT!!! You gotta read it for yourself, I am still laughing....................."

Thanks for your help.
If I can convince them that it would be constructive and not confrontational, would you be interested in speaking at the next Winnfabs meeting?
Frank

[restauranteer]

Originally Posted by frank m.

...it makes it hard for me to work with guys like Moose, when he posts stuff like this about me on the other offshore forum...would you be interested in speaking at the next Winnfabs meeting?
Frank

You know, I come here to read about exciting events and occurences involving other members of the Winnipesaukee.com community. If I want to read about "Moose" and the goings on at offshore sites or the Winnfab group, I'll navigate there on my own, thank you.

Can we focus back on what goes on here, not there?

Of course, your appetite may vary.

Bon Apetit!

[Fat Jack]

Good post Resteraunter,
"Whine with that cheese"? That's classic. I had thought you might be some sort of investigative reporter based on your earlier posts, but now I realize that you must be a poet.

Originally Posted by restauranteer

I'll navigate there on my own, thank you.

Please do. We'll miss you.

Now, can someone please fill us in on this secret May 6 meeting with Director Barrett? I want to be there. What time and where? Is he joining the anti-safety group and having private meetings with them now to discuss strategy for preventing the speed limit? Will they also be discussing ways to legalize DWI and to stave off the enactment of any other safety regulations? Are the people he is meeting with NH residents and taxpayers like me who pay his salary or are is it only for the guys from Florida?
This is all pretty shocking to me, that OUR highest sitting public "safety" official would be meeting privately with a bunch of non-residents about how they can work together to fight a safety law that was designed to protect the citizens who pay his salary. Is this in his job description? Am I the only one appauled by this?

Of course, your appetite may vary.
Bon Apetit!

[overlook]

To the best of my knowledge, the meeting was set to introduce Director Barret to the organization. He will have more to say to NHBRA and they will listen. It was not to discuss possible HBs. NHBRA is young and your opinion is part of it, it is too early for NHBRA to discuss proposals. Remember there are 100,000 boats reg. in NH, probably 1/2 boat on Winni. witch is significant, but that leaves 50,000 boaters that have ther own issues. Boating safety is the main objective, and if the meeting turns into a discusson forum simmular to the ones we find on this forum it would be counter productive.

[MAXUM]

Welp I think that a speed limit is coming. Yell and scream all you want, there is an increasing number of boaters that either don't care, are to irresponsible or are just plain idiots piloting boats out there (of all sizes, makes brands etc...). Now compound the problem with the increased traffic. Right now the MP has rules that can be enforced such as inappropriate operation that is considered dangerious, however that is subject to opinion which makes it difficult to site and argue in court. Having something such as a speed limit now enables the MP to make a more cut and dry case. I personally think that this is way overdue. Boat manufacturers are making more powerful boats which just entices the operator to light it up and go. Unfortunatly this is a judgement call of the operator and is tough to legislate, however some deterrant needs to be put in place. It's no different IMHO than the speed limits on the road (which still get ignored), however there is a speeding ticket hanging over your head should you get caught.

I also beg to differ on the premise that speed is not a common factor in most accidents on the lake, it's really tough to screw something up at headway speed. Granted even at 20 MPH people could get killed, but the chances increase substantially as that increases to 45+ MPH, especailly with no brakes.

I'm in agreement with most in that the boater education is a joke here. Trouble is the cost of creating a more comprehensive course is going to be huge and probably will not to much more in the way of making the lake any safer.

I do think that attempting in any way to restrict boat access to the lake is a dangerious precedient to set and opens the door to cutting off public access all together... I pay far to much in taxes to this state, I'll be d*mned if somebody says I can't put my boat on a lake in my own state, ESPECAILLY if the lake is over run with out of staters.

My final comments on this little rant is that it is sad that new laws have to hit the books however something has to be done. There are far to many with 0 brains and 0 common sense. The funny thing is they have 0 cule they are the ones at fault too. UH - DUH!

Hope you all have a good and safe boating season.