Will tragedy teach?

[GWC...]

Very tragic incident on Lake George - 20 passengers die because tour boat capsizes.

Captain blames boat wakes.

Link to story:
http://www.comcast.net/news/index.js...03/233779.html

Note: You may have to copy/paste the link into your Address bar of your browser.

Link to Ethan Allen website:
http://www.lakegeorgeshoreline.com/b...thanallen.html

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[Puck]

If they had actually been wearing their life vests it could have helped also.

[Ralphie]

Without presumably knowing any of the facts surrounding this horrible incident, I find it appalling that anyone could start making statements either for or against a lakewide speed limit. Let's wait and see what the investigators determine before we go there.

[Woodsy]

The boat that the Capt blames for the "rogue" boat wake is the Mohican. I have seen the wake that this boat throws and it makes the wakes from the "Doris" and "Sophie" look like ripples....

I am sure the between NTSB, US Coast Guard and the NY Marine Patrol they will figure out the cause of this tragedy.

[SIKSUKR]

It makes you wonder if that boat was safe with a full load of passengers.I'm sure waves of this size are not unusual on Lake George.If you see the photo of the boat,it does not look built to handle good sized waves broadside.The photo of the boat I saw was empty.I will say it's hard to tell from a photo how high the gunwale is off the water.

[KonaChick]

It's just awful. I just got through reading it in our local newspaper and came in to see if anyone had posted on it yet. I can't imagine seeing that. My prayers go out to everyone affected by this horrible tragedy.

[tricia1218]

I think it is too soon to be making assumptions as to the cause of such a tragic story, from the news reports there are conflicting stories between the captain of the boat and passengers. I will wait for the facts, right now this is a tragedy and my thoughts go out to the everyone involved.

[RLW]

The news report I heard this noontime, the spoke person said so far into the investigation has not shown anyother large boats in the area where it tipped and sank. I guess we just have to wait and see.

[Boater]

My first thought when I heard about this trajedy was this picture of the Winnipesaukee Belle I saw on photopost.

When I first saw it my reaction was "This boat crossed the Broads?". Put 30 or 40 people on the top deck of this obviously top-heavy boat and mix in some infamous Broads wind and waves and...well, you can imagine.

[Mr. V]

Here is a link to a photo of the Ethan Allen:

http://www.lakegeorgeshoreline.com/b...thanallen.html

and here's one of the Mohican:

http://www.lakegeorgesteamboat.com/mohican.html

Form your own conclusions as to causation, but I really cannot understand why the skipper wasn't tested for alcohol or drugs; had 20 people been killed in a tour bus he was driving, he certainly would have been.

Human Error + many deaths = Massive Liability

[ITD]

Something is just not right with this story. The Ethan Allen is a 40 ft tour boat capable of carrying 50 people. Another article talks about plastic seats that slid to one side when the boat rocked. The link given earlier quotes a former captain of the boat who stated that the boat would list to the left when fully loaded with passengers. I hope that the NTSB takes a long hard look at this accident and rules are changed if they need to be.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9569812/

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Engineers take superstructure height and weight, and also allow for passenger and equipment weight. Then they calculate how much ballast must be placed in the hull. One way of doing this is with ballast cement. Not to mention the weight of engines, fuel tanks and other equipment below decks to offset the equation. Could this happen here? I don't think so, although I think the former Judge Sewall might have been a candidate for a major incident, but that vessel is no longer on the lake.

[beaner]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

I think the former Judge Sewall might have been a candidate for a major incident, but that vessel is no longer on the lake.

Hmm....the Judge Sewall was owned by the Wolfeboro Inn, right? Isn't it the same boat that is now known as Winnipesaukee Belle? If so, it's still on the lake.

[Sunset Bob]

The judge Seawall http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopo...cat=500&page=6 and the Winipesaukee Belle are two differant boats. Baja-Mama photo http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopo...cat=502&page=1

[islandAl]

From the article link posted by GWC
"Only Colorado, Indiana and New Hampshire require adults to wear life preservers when a boat is motion, said Melissa Savage of the National Conference of State Legislatures."

?? New Hampshire requires adults to wear lafe preservers when a boat is in motion?? Is this true for certain commercial boats? Never was asked to wear one when on the Mount.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by islandAl

From the article link posted by GWC
"Only Colorado, Indiana and New Hampshire require adults to wear life preservers when a boat is motion, said Melissa Savage of the National Conference of State Legislatures."

?? New Hampshire requires adults to wear life preservers when a boat is in motion?? Is this true for certain commercial boats? Never was asked to wear one when on the Mount.

As usual the news agencies have it wrong. There aren't any NH rules re: wearing of PFDs, except for small children. You must have an approved PFD, in proper condition, for each person onboard. I'm not sure about commercial vessels but in your pleasure boat the PFD must be "readily accessable" which means within arms length. The USCG has been pushing to have a "must wear" rule for boats under 20-ish feet but last I knew this hadn't passed.

RE: the incident on Lake George, there's something not making a lot of sense in what's been reported so far. Hard to believe the wake from a vessel, even at 98', would swamp the 40' boat, especially when both have been operating on that lake for some time. Overloading seems like the obvious primary cause but it would seem that the vessel had been operated this way many times in the past. Hard to believe the captain wouldn't have noticed it previously. Too soon to tell for sure ...

[Boater]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Overloading seems like the obvious primary cause

I heard on the news that the Ethan Allen was certified to carry 50 passengers and was carrying 48. The problem is that when the boat was built the weight per person used for the calculation was 140 lbs. per person. The official on the news report admitted that the average weight these days is much higher than 140. Yikes, that boat was seriously overloaded.

[NightWing]

Another point to consider is the boat was reportedly originally built with a canvas top, but the windows and fiberglass roof were add ons. There was also a report of lead bricks in the bow used for ballast.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Boater

I heard on the news that the Ethan Allen was certified to carry 50 passengers and was carrying 48. The problem is that when the boat was built the weight per person used for the calculation was 140 lbs. per person. The official on the news report admitted that the average weight these days is much higher than 140. Yikes, that boat was seriously overloaded.

The 140lb per person standard calculation was put in place at least 30+ years ago by the CG as an industry standard, it has been discussed numerous times about updating this but still seems to be overlooked. Too many trips to McDonalds over the years has made this obsolete. Maybe this will be the breaking point that will force the change. This not only affects commercial boats, it would affect every boat manufacturer in the market. Unfortunately even though going forward on new boats with an updated capacity spec it still does not fix all the used boats out there that are probably running over capacity frequently. A few weeks ago I overloaded my pontoon coming back from the island and after barely making it back I did the weight calculations and realized just how wrong the spec is. Most people see the rating for number of passengers and ignore the weight rating. All it takes is a few 200+ pounders to skew the capacity.

[SOMEONEGOTCHA]

Originally Posted by codeman671

The 140lb per person standard calculation was put in place at least 30+ years ago by the CG as an industry standard, it has been discussed numerous times about updating this but still seems to be overlooked.

I hear everyone that is talking about being over weight because of old standards that are used for calculating what a boat/ship can hold. However I do not believe that has a single thing to do with this mishap as this cruise was made up of all elderly people some of which were in wheelchairs. One does not find many of the elderly over the 140 mark.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by SOMEONEGOTCHA

I hear everyone that is talking about being over weight because of old standards that are used for calculating what a boat/ship can hold. However I do not believe that has a single thing to do with this mishap as this cruise was made up of all elderly people some of which were in wheelchairs. One does not find many of the elderly over the 140 mark.

I would have thought so as well but according to http://www.freep.com/news/nw/accident6e_20051006.htm the average weight may have been over 170 lbs. Certainly if the analysis was properly done (and not some quickie beat the competing press job) the boat was overloaded. Also as mentioned above mods were made to the boat that could have affected the stability margin. I was surprised to read that the deck was raised/added. This is a major change (again if true). Lastly I was again surprised at how simplistic the state liscense re: load capacity was/is. Regardless of the Lbs/person issue, they simply use a rule of thumb for boat length and capacity, no real calculation of CG and stability. Given the ease and low cost of computing/solid modelling these days, this is perhaps one area of improvement to persue. Makes you wonder what calculations were done when the Mount was altered over the years.

[Orion]

There were indications that there were mostly un-anchored plastic chairs used for this load of people. That, coupled with the poor ability of many elderly to maintain their stability in a rocking boat situation, surely must have been the major contributing factor as that would easily cause the weight to shift rapidly to one side.

[ApS]

Here's the website photo of the suspected wake-producer, the Mohican. http://www.lakegeorgesteamboat.com/mohican.html
The appearance of this boat rings a bell. Um...um...

I've never had a problem with the wake from Winnipesaukee's biggest tourist boat, but then I don't go very fast.

The design of the Ethan Allen wasn't helped by wheelchairs brought on board and the non-fixed seating for the tourists. One report stated that it has glass windows, whose weight shouldn't be overlooked for top-heaviness. (Not to mention difficulty in passengers exiting upon swamping).

Here Ethan Allen is, being brought to the surface with floatation bags:
http://uk.newsbot.msn.com/ni/N1/(;5BS[~(VF-T[]4BNJ[,+D_NPhoto.jpg

Originally Posted by Boater

My first thought when I heard about this tragedy was this picture of the Winnipesaukee Belle I saw on photopost.

Exactly.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

I've never had a problem with the wake from Winnipesaukee's biggest tourist boat, but then I don't go very fast.

It must not go by your place very fast because I've seen the Mount kick up some pretty big stuff and as a kid heard it crash along the Sandy Point beach and stone bulkhead

[Woodsy]

Since they "stretched" the Mount, her wake really hasn't been too bad as far as my experiience. The Doris, Sophie anfd the MP's Harbor Patrol Boat all throw substantial wakes that can be cause for concern... regardless of what speed you are traveling.

Woodsy

[SIKSUKR]

Here's my preliminary amatuer investigation.From watching reports and listening to survivers last night on CNN and Fox,it seems that while the Ethan Allen was taking a hard turn to starboard,the passengers were shifted towards the port side of the vessal,overweighting that side and leading to water being taken on and ultimately sinking her to port.What a terrible event.

[Misty Blue]

When this horrible tragedy happened the Eathan Allen was almost at maximum capacity. Totally leagal, but scarry.


The maximum capacity of a vessel is calculated using the factors so well discribed in weirsbeachboater's post. Larger vessels will recieve a "stability letter" directing where cargos can be placed, etc. Smaller vessels simply are rated at maximum load in pounds and maximum passengers. That's the rub.

The formula for maximum passengers assumes that a "passenger" weighs an average of 150 pounds! Max. load divided by 150 = Max. passengers. (Try this with the capacity plate on your boat).

Just think about it. If the average passenger on the EA weighed in at 180# she would have been over 20% over her maximum load capacity.

The Coast Guard has been working on updating this formula but in our politically correct society it is considered rude to bring up the subject of weight. Also the GC has to deal with the economic impact of a more realistic formula.

So what can we do? Don't just read the maximum number of passengers side of your certicicate of compliance. Read the maximum load part and use it. This is especially true of smaller boats. Don't allow your boat to be over loaded and tell your friends and neighbors when you see them overloading. Also load your boat evenly. Distribute the weight. If your boat is rated for six passengers, five of them should not be sitting in the front of the bow rider!

NTSB is on it and I expect that the answer will be a combination of things but overloading is something that we can all keep in mind and do something about on our own boats.

Misty Blue

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Misty Blue

The maximum capacity of a vessel is calculated using the factors so well discribed in weirsbeachboater's post. Larger vessels will recieve a "stability letter" directing where cargos can be placed, etc. Smaller vessels simply are rated at maximum load in pounds and maximum passengers. That's the rub. {snip} So what can we do? Don't just read the maximum number of passengers side of your certicicate of compliance. Read the maximum load part and use it. This is especially true of smaller boats. Don't allow your boat to be over loaded and tell your friends and neighbors when you see them overloading. Also load your boat evenly. Distribute the weight. If your boat is rated for six passengers, five of them should not be sitting in the front of the bow rider!

NTSB is on it and I expect that the answer will be a combination of things but overloading is something that we can all keep in mind and do something about on our own boats.

Misty Blue

Good points by you and WBB and I wonder what modifications have been made to the Ethan Allen since it was rated ? For instance was the weight of the glass windows added into the center of gravity (CG) calculations. Was anything else added or removed that affected the CG ? Was there water sloshing around in the bilge ? Was the fuel load empty or full ? Too many questions are left unanswered to reach any real conclusions right now.

I would add to your wise words above by mentioning that the max load on our boats is supposed to include all gear plus passengers. If you haul aboard a full cooler or two and anchors and other "stuff", this is all weight to be included in the max load. Said another way the max load rating minus the weight of your "stuff" is what you've got left for passengers. I find I'm always load limited before I'm # of persons limited. Also weight high in the boat affects the CG more negatively than weight stored low. Common-sense I know, but might as well mention it since we're on the topic.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Cal

It must not go by your place very fast because I've seen the Mount kick up some pretty big stuff and as a kid heard it crash along the Sandy Point beach and stone bulkhead

Sorry. I wasn't specific enough in my comment.

I meant the M/V Mt. Washington — the "New" Mount.