Lake George Speed Limit working?

Taz · 12-31-2005, 06:37 PM

Many of the speed limit supporters have used Lake George as an example of how speed limits can work. Here is how good its working. I read an article in the latest edition of "MOTORBOATING". It was about a woman who had a wellknown man in boat racing build her a custom hydroplane capable of exceeding 100 mph. Guess where she plans on using it? You guessed it, Lake George. I can see the word is out not to come to Lake George if you want to speed.

Island Lover · 12-31-2005, 07:29 PM

I don't see your point.

If she operates it at 45 MPH or less she will be fine. If she operates it at over 45 MPH she is breaking the law.

How does one person buying a boat capable of exceeding the speed limit mean the law doesn't work? Plenty of people buy cars capable of exceeding the speed limits on our highways. Does that invalidate our highway speed limits?

ApS · 01-01-2006, 06:52 AM

Click on a 2005 Donzi thread for this Lake George comment:

Quote:

For several years I had a towing business on Lake George...I would say that 90% of the night accidents I showed up at involved alcohol and speed.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthre...566#post343566 (Scroll to Post 67...Post 7 is instructive, too.)

Taz · 01-01-2006, 06:17 PM

Island Lover, If you think someone is going to pay over $100k for a custom hydroplane to go 45 mph or less, you are not thinking straight. The point is the Lake George speed limit is a joke, there have been posts on this forum from people who have boated on Lake George who confirm boaters are exceeding the speed limit on Lake George regularly without consequences.

The reason someone would buy a boat like that on a lake with a speed limit is because the speed limit is not being strictly enforced. THINK ABOUT IT. You heard it hear first. If Winni does end up with a speed limit the high performance boats will not leave and there will be plenty of boats exceeding the speed limit because the marine is underfunded and understaffed.

The speed limit supporters are in for a rude awakening if it passes. They don't really think their paradise is going to suddenly appear like turning on a light switch. Nothing much will change.

Island Lover · 01-01-2006, 06:47 PM

So your argument is don't pass a law because if you do we will just break it. Once again the opposition puts both feet in its mouth.

Have you forgotten the people that have said they WILL leave if HB162 passes?

And what about the argument that a speed limit will hurt the lakes economy. If nobody leaves or stays away, how is the economy effected?

I did an internet search and found a story about a woman that is having a hydroplane design built for use on Lake George. Is this the woman you are referring to? If so you failed to mention that she is duplicating the boat that won a famous hydroplane race on Lake George in 1933. Her purpose is boating history, not breaking the law. The boat is heading for a museum.

Fat Jack · 01-01-2006, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taz

You heard it hear (sic) first. If Winni does end up with a speed limit ... there will be plenty of boats exceeding the speed limit because the marine is underfunded and understaffed... Nothing much will change.

Breaking the law must be exciting too, eh? Will this just add another level of "excitement" to the weekend go-fast experience?

Taz · 01-02-2006, 10:24 PM

So Island Lover, I suppose you obey speed limit laws every time you drive your car? Why would you think it will be any different on the lake.

I have never thought that boaters in any significant quantity will leave the lake if the law passes. I think the speed limit opponents are guilty of scare tactics when they use this one. But the speed limit supporters whole basis for a speed limit is a scare tactic so I will give the opponents a pass on that one.

The majority of high performance boats I see on the lake either call Winnipesaukee home or they call NH home so I do not see many leaving. Even if they all did obey the speed limit they will still be noisy. What will all the supporters do then? Personally, I believe this is the biggest reason this law was started, noise, not speed.

And no, I am not saying don't pass a law because it will be broken. I have always believed the law should not pass because its not necessary. I am simply pointing out what I believe is reality. And I believe reality is that most high performance boats are not leaving, many will exceed the speed limit, the marine patrol will be relatively ineffective in enforcing it and nothing much will change.

And no I did not FORGET to mention that the woman buying the hydroplane did it for historical reasons or that the hydroplane will go to a museum. I didn't mention it because the article I read said nothing about historical reasons or a museum. She said she bought it because her daughter bought one and enjoyed it so she thought she would to. She also admitted in the article to breaking the speed limit the first time she used it (55 mph). I have no doubt that as she gets used to how it handles she will be going faster.

Woodsy · 01-02-2006, 10:48 PM

I wonder how many of the Pro HB-162 crowd have actually boated on Lake George? I boat there, and there are two well publicized Donzi events held on Lake George every year. I think 2006 will be 10th year for these events.

In any case, Lake George does have a speed limit. They don't have a 150' safe passage rule, with the exception of distance to the shoreline.

However, this speed limit is NOT aggressively enforced. I have never witnessed anyone getting a speeding ticket on Lake George. I read somewhere that NY publishes the amount of tickets written on Lake George because its a state park and there is an access fee. I believe the grand total was 5 speeding violations written. I am going to try and track that report down. It should make for some interesting reading...

Woodsy

ApS · 01-05-2006, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"I wonder how many of the Pro HB-162 crowd have actually boated on Lake George? I boat there...Lake George does have a speed limit. They don't have a 150' safe passage rule, with the exception of distance to the shoreline..."

Here's the exact quote from the Lake George site:

Quote:

"...Near shore maximum is 5 mph within 100 feet of shore, dock or stationary boats, rafts, floats, etc. On the main lake: Daytime limit (6am-9pm) is 45mph; Night limit (9pm-6am) is 25 mph. Remember: Safe boaters travel at more conservative speeds..."

Hopefully, this will clear up -- too -- what was written here as fact.

fatlazyless · 01-05-2006, 08:12 AM

6am - 9pm, 6am - 9pm, 6am - 9pm, that's about 15 hours from 6am - 9pm. Now, that makes some good safe boating sense to me, thisy here 6am -9pm side of the speed limit law. You know, that summer-time sun takes a long, long time before it goes ker-ker-ker-kerplunk.....splash, and sets down behind the twin peaks of Mts Belknap & Gunstock.

6am to 9pm.........................hut-hut!

Cal · 01-05-2006, 08:24 AM

APS,
I read this on the LG site you posted. Sounds like these people really know what they're doing.
"Personal Watercraft (PWC)
Personal watercraft may be operated between 8am and 7pm(or until sunset)-whichever is earlier. Speed must be limited to 5 mph within 500 feet of shore except when proceeding directly to and from shore. "

By the sounds of this , a jet ski can run right up to the beach at 45 mph. Smart people huh?

Woodsy · 01-05-2006, 09:47 AM

APS...

Have you actually boated on Lake George?

I stand by my post... Lake George does not have a 150' safe passage law. They have a 100' safe passage law, that as you so nicely pointed out only applies to shorelines, docks, rafts, stationary boats etc. Their safe passage law has nothing to do with two moving boats, who can legally pass as close as they want, as long as they are traveling under 45MPH. So you are right, because you were moored, you were technically a stationary boat. Had you been in the process of rowing your boat to your mooring, the other boater could have come as close to you as he wanted, certainly far more that you would have been comfortable with, legally.

Here is the link to your original story/post.
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...99&postcount=1

I didn't think legal moorings could be that far out into the lake.

I stand by my post!

Woodsy

Cal · 01-05-2006, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

APS...

Have you actually boated on Lake George?

I stand by my post... Lake George does not have a 150' safe passage law. They have a 100' safe passage law, that as you so nicely pointed out only applies to shorelines, docks, rafts, stationary boats etc. Their safe passage law has nothing to do with two moving boats, who can legally pass as close as they want, as long as they are traveling under 45MPH. So you are right, because you were moored, you were technically a stationary boat. Had you been in the process of rowing your boat to your mooring, the other boater could have come as close to you as he wanted, certainly far more that you would have been comfortable with, legally.

Here is the link to your original story/post.
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...99&postcount=1

I didn't think legal moorings could be that far out into the lake.

I stand by my post!

Woodsy

Sounds as though someone in that post ([url]http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22199&postcount=1) was "fishing". Wonder if there was any other witnesses

ApS · 01-10-2006, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I stand by my post... Lake George does not have a 150' safe passage law. They have a 100' safe passage law, that as you so nicely pointed out only applies to shorelines, docks, rafts, stationary boats etc. Their safe passage law has nothing to do with two moving boats, who can legally pass as close as they want, as long as they are traveling under 45MPH. So you are right, because you were moored, you were technically a stationary boat. Had you been in the process of rowing your boat to your mooring, the other boater could have come as close to you as he wanted, certainly far more that you would have been comfortable with, legally.

Here is the link to your original story/post.
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...99&postcount=1

I didn't think legal moorings could be that far out into the lake....

My mooring is 60' off my 50' dock.

Depending at what depth Lakeport has maintained, a boat moored there could easily extend 150' from shore. Prevailing breezes keep it closer.

The incident was in October, at an unusually high water period, in sunny, calm weather, with scant boating activity. (Pardon...my alleged incident).

As to the safe passage, I'd take Lake George's speed limit any day. Winnipesaukee, which allows limitless speed, has a 150-safe-passage law that is ineptly enforced and everywhere violated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wordsy

APS...

Have you actually boated on Lake George?

My grandfather, who was a medical doctor and an outdoorman, sold his Lake Sebago camp to enjoy Winnipesaukee's shores.

My father first attended, then was employed by, Camp Wyanoke.

I attended Camp Wyanoke, which gave me a great appreciation for the "Smile of the Great Spirit" that surrounded us.

For me, there's only Lake Winnipesaukee.

Island Lover · 01-02-2006, 10:54 PM

We all know that you can drive through speed traps on Rt 93 at 5 or 10 MPH over the speed limit and not be stopped. The same will be true on the lake.

But we also know that if you were to drive Rt 93 at 100 plus, then before long you will have serious trouble. And if that guy with the boat that goes opens it up, the Marine Patrol Will be happy to deal with him.

This is what the official opposition web site says about boaters leaving the lake, read the statements.

http://www.opposehb162.com/opposehb162/economy.htm

Aquadeziac · 01-04-2006, 10:11 AM

Looking at that link:

First of all, the logic there is the same type used by the guy that got up at a forum meeting this summer in favor of the Bill by saying "I am a Bass fisherman and my boat will only do 45 mph, Please pass the speed limit so I can be more competitive in the tournaments" duh!

Secondly, if all these go fasters do leave as they threaten to, that just means the lake will become more appealing to families with pontoon boats and smaller, slower family boats. They will now rent where the go fasters vacated and pump money into the local area. The down side of that is??

Thirdly, "Property values will go down if the go fasters pull out" Maybe that just means property will be more affordable for the middle income families that will be bringing their slower boats and revenue to the Lake's Region. Again, the downside is?

Finally, my feeling is, pass the Law, and wave good-bye as the go-fasters leave, and post their McMansions 'For Sale' cuz there is always someone ready to come in. Bottom line is, there will always be someone there to come in and take the go-fasters place. They will continue to pump money into the regions economy. And if the Law does pass, you will see just how many empty threats of leaving were made.

Cal · 01-04-2006, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquadeziac

Secondly, if all these go fasters do leave as they threaten to, that just means the lake will become more appealing to families with pontoon boats and smaller, slower family boats. They will now rent where the go fasters vacated and pump money into the local area. The down side of that is??

Yeah , that's just what the lake needs ...more clueless "rental" captains on the water.

I'm seriously beginning to hope you get what you wish for

Taz · 01-04-2006, 09:08 PM

So Island Lover, you just confirmed that its acceptable to break speed limit laws (going 5-10 mph over the speed limit) Does that mean it will be acceptable to break the speed limit if it passes for the lake? What were you saying about inserting "foot in mouth" in your earlier post?

you can count on one hand the boats that are capable of going 100 mph on the lake & even less that even attempt to exceed 90. 99.9% are operating in the 50-70 mph range. So what happens when these boats continue to operate in this range, creating the noise that the supporters are trying to stop? This is what is happening now, its reality & it will not change. It will be business as usual because as you said earlier, exceeding the speed limit will not be an issue with regard to the marine patrol as long as it is not outrageous.

Those statements you reference are a very, very very small representation of the total of boaters who use the lake during boating season. The few that do not return will not be noticed. As I said earlier, in my opinion thats not a good argument to oppose the bill.

SAMIAM · 01-05-2006, 10:15 AM

The go fast boaters don't worry me...they are experienced and educated drivers.It's the rental boats that scare me.Most of them head out without any training or knowledge of the laws and account for far more accidents than other boats.
I still say that education is what is needed.

HotDog · 01-02-2006, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taz

You heard it hear first. If Winni does end up with a speed limit the high performance boats will not leave and there will be plenty of boats exceeding the speed limit because the marine is underfunded and understaffed.

I AGREE!!...
marine patrol CAN NOT prove that a boat was going 70 mph in court.. in order for a radar to work you need to know the exact distance from point A to point B !!

when people get a ticket for "speeding." they will be fighting that in court and will win because marine patrol can't prove unless they no the exact distance. so when the speed limit doesn't pass don't be upset!

Aquadeziac · 01-06-2006, 10:20 AM

Maybe someone needs to check this out:

http://www.kustomsignals.com/product...ename=handheld

Note in the first line where it says "its built specifically for speed enforcement on waterways " and " Designed for patrol use from boat ". That means its not a converted on-highway unit. And this is only one of many different brands out there. Now I suppose these manufacturers don't know what they are talking about ?! They don't know what their own product is capable of?! All the boat owners know better than the manufacturers and trained operators?! Lets see what kinda spin can be put on this.

winnilaker · 01-06-2006, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquadeziac

Maybe someone needs to check this out:

http://www.kustomsignals.com/product...ename=handheld

Note in the first line where it says "its built specifically for speed enforcement on waterways " and " Designed for patrol use from boat ". That means its not a converted on-highway unit. And this is only one of many different brands out there. Now I suppose these manufacturers don't know what they are talking about ?! They don't know what their own product is capable of?! All the boat owners know better than the manufacturers and trained operators?! Lets see what kinda spin can be put on this.

No spin, just wanted to hi-light the rest of that page.

"Its ability to display speeds in knots or miles per hour make it ideal for slow speed areas including no wake zones and harbors."

So I guess it wouldn't be ideal for high speed efforts?

Island Lover · 01-06-2006, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winnilaker

No spin, just wanted to hi-light the rest of that page.

"Its ability to display speeds in knots or miles per hour make it ideal for slow speed areas including no wake zones and harbors."

So I guess it wouldn't be ideal for high speed efforts?

Did you forget that this very unit was displayed at the hearings last summer? The testimony given was that it works great for the speeds we are taking about. And there was NO testimony given to the contrary.

The RR&D committee took this unit out on the lake and tried it for themselves with success.

jrc · 01-06-2006, 12:11 PM

Director Barrett is not a stupid man. I'm sure he has worked a long time to get to the position he is in. He is not going to let his reported remarks be used against him.

He has no political choice but to vigorously enforce this law, if adopted. So I would expect speed traps at the places where speed are easy to measure and with good chance of success at court. Since there are people who will fight and win against some of these tickets, the MP will fight back with volume.

No bureaucrat wants to be called on the carpet. When his boss says "you didn't want this law" he's going to say "here is the proof I'm doing my job" and he will have a bushel of convictions from 46 mph up.

Aquadeziac · 01-06-2006, 08:25 PM

I think even you have to admit, the point they were making is that their unit is as acurate on the low end of the scale(headway speed) as it is on the high end (40+ mph).

Ski Man · 01-07-2006, 01:47 PM

I've been waiting for this to come up today, hoping not to have to post and face all the personal attacks that seem to go with that, but I'm getting impatient and figuring no one has seen it yet. Following is an article in today's Citizen. Now let's hear about how Lake Georges Speed Limits aren't working;

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...073/-1/CITIZEN

Island Lover · 01-07-2006, 02:47 PM

An excellent article! Thanks for posting it.

It disproves most of the arguments made by the opposition. Its nice to get the real story from somebody that has been there.

Now the opposition will post that what Lt. Schneider REALLY means is that the speed limit is a bad idea!

Seaplane Pilot · 01-07-2006, 04:50 PM

OK then. Let's follow the lead of Lake George officials, rather than follow the position of our own NH Marine Patrol - yes, the same NH Marine Patrol that is currently responsible for law enforcement on NH inland and coastal waters. Yes, the same Marine Patrol who have stated that a speed limit is unenforceable and not needed, in their opinion. Why should we believe them, NY must know better? Give me a break, will you.

Maybe Rep. Poulliard can sponsor a bill that bans all motorboats in the state. All you island folk can sail or kayak to your island houses. If the real issue is safety, why not? Imagine the safety record then. Wait...he's too busy sponsoring statues to let 17 year old skull-bashing murderers avoid the death penalty. There's a groundswell of support to defeat HB-162, yet the supporters of the speedlimit honestly believe that this is going to pass. Not a chance.

Ski Man · 01-07-2006, 05:20 PM

The silence here from the opposition about the "facts" put forth in this article is pretty deafening. Is SP's rather Simian reply the official response? Are you all agreeing that the position of your man in Glendale, who has absolutely no experience enforcing a boating speed limit, who has buddied up with the very "hens" that he is supposed to be guarding, and who has lost all credibility with statements like "200 miles an hour is just fine on our lakes", rather than that of a real safety-conscious law enforcement official who has a proven track record of success enforcing an identical law for years, and local public officials there who brag about the benefits that their identical law has brought to their region, their ecomony, their tourism, their quality of life, and their overall boating experience? That sounds like a winning approach to me.
It just seems so selfish to continue to try to deny to us the same benefits that the citizens out there are enjoying just so you can drive your boats really fast.

Woodsy, Doesn't this meet the requirements you set for changing your opinion? Are you a man of your word?

WeirsBeachBoater · 01-07-2006, 05:32 PM

From: Lt. Joseph Schneider
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: Info request
The speed limit on LG is only one regulation of a comprehensive set of regulations passed in 1988 on Lake George when the NYS Legislature recognized the need for additional protection of the unique resource that is Lake George. LGPC regulations were promulgated regarding public safety, resource protection, docks and moorings, and special navigation issues such as overcrowding, vessel noise, PWC operation, and more; as such it is impossible to say what the effect of just the speed limit has been.
Lt. J.H. Schneider
Director of Law Enforcement
Lake George Park Commission
PO Box 749
Lake George, NY 12834

NOTE: the last sentence!!!! Seems to me that Lt Schneider can't decide his position on what the speed limit has done for Lake George. May its one way, and now in the citizen in Jan its the other??? What gives?

Fat Jack · 01-08-2006, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

Seems to me that Lt Schneider can't decide his position on what the speed limit has done for Lake George.

Weirsbeachboater,
Please provide the entire exchange.

ApS · 01-07-2006, 05:51 PM

Although GFBLs remain their own worst enemy, this article points the bony finger of blame at Director Barrett. His early mis-statements have put his job in peril.

Fat Jack · 01-08-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Although GFBLs remain their own worst enemy, this article points the bony finger of blame at Director Barrett. His early mis-statements have put his job in peril.

We can only hope. There is a growing number of citizens who are recognizing that things will not change for the better on our lakes until we have a man at Barrett's desk that looks at things the way other marine safety officials, such as Lt. Schnieder, do. The go-fast boaters, go-fast dealerships, and beach bars have had control of Glendale for too long. It's clearly time for a change that puts a safety advocate in place. Imagine what Winnipesaukee would be like if we had a man like Schnieder in charge?
Commissioner Flynn, are you listening?

Island Lover · 01-07-2006, 05:55 PM

Seaplane Pilot

The Marine Patrol has not taken a position on HB162. You are talking about David Barrett the current Director. He may be director for a long time to come, because if HB162 passes he isn't going to get a cushy job in the boating industry.

As I'm sure you know, he has changed his mind and now "supports" HB162. Proving only that he is a political hack.

I spoke to a former MP officer that is now a State Representative, he supports HB162.

Fat Jack · 01-07-2006, 06:11 PM

"Young said Lake George officials join with local law enforcement to check boats as they come out of coves and bays that have bars."

Now I understand why the Naswa is so concerned about the possibility of Lake Winnipesaukee becoming more like Lake George. They could lose all of their business.

Ski Man · 01-07-2006, 06:20 PM

Here's a quote from a fellow on the other local site that has been a pretty vocal opponent to HB162 there, up until he read to Lake George story today;

"Great article in today's Citizen on Lake George and effect speed limit had there. Kind of puts the issue to rest for me."

Perhaps he just realized how he has been lied to over the past year.

At least some people have the integrity to admit when they have been wrong.

Seaplane Pilot · 01-08-2006, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ski Man

Here's a quote from a fellow on the other local site that has been a pretty vocal opponent to HB162 there, up until he read to Lake George story today;

"Great article in today's Citizen on Lake George and effect speed limit had there. Kind of puts the issue to rest for me."

Perhaps he just realized how he has been lied to over the past year.

At least some people have the integrity to admit when they have been wrong.

Here's another "Simian reply" :How can you possibly state that this is an issue of right and wrong? Are you the judge of right and wrong? That's about as "Simian" as one can get.

Seaplane Pilot · 01-08-2006, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ski Man

Here's a quote from a fellow on the other local site that has been a pretty vocal opponent to HB162 there, up until he read to Lake George story today;

"Great article in today's Citizen on Lake George and effect speed limit had there. Kind of puts the issue to rest for me."

Perhaps he just realized how he has been lied to over the past year.

At least some people have the integrity to admit when they have been wrong.

SM - you aren't playing nice. Anyway, here's another "Simian reply" :How can you possibly state that this is an issue of right and wrong? Are you the judge of right and wrong? That's about as "Simian" as one can get.

Island Lover · 01-08-2006, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

SM - you aren't playing nice. Anyway, here's another "Simian reply" :How can you possibly state that this is an issue of right and wrong? Are you the judge of right and wrong? That's about as "Simian" as one can get.

We are all judges of right and wrong.....

Its called morality.

Woodsy · 01-09-2006, 12:56 PM

Thousands of boats using Lake George... they write 5 or 6 speeding tickets per year, and you call that effective?

If HB-162 passes as proposed by the R,R &D majority opinion, Winnfabs will be screaming FOUL at the top of thier lungs if our MP only issued 5-6 tickets per year!

Woodsy

Island Lover · 01-09-2006, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Thousands of boats using Lake George... they write 5 or 6 speeding tickets per year, and you call that effective?

If HB-162 passes as proposed by the R,R &D majority opinion, Winnfabs will be screaming FOUL at the top of thier lungs if our MP only issued 5-6 tickets per year!

Woodsy

Woodsy

The head of the Lake George marine patrol has explained the situation. Seems like good judgment to me. Compliance with the speed limit is what is important, not the number of citations.

Lt. Schneider thinks things are under control on Lake George. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Quote:

Lt. Joseph Schneider

"There is no problem going into court," said Lt. Joseph Schneider, the head of law enforcement and marine patrol for the Lake George Park Commission.....

The supervisor said his department rarely has to issue speeding tickets to boaters as the law has become an effective deterrent.

"We haven't had any trials. We write up the boats that are obviously speeding," said Schneider.

The marine patrol chief noted that his department has been handing out an average of six tickets per year as they usually get their message across with stops and warnings.

"It's not a situation where we are butting head with these people on a regular basis," said Schneider.

Seaplane Pilot · 01-09-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Lover

We are all judges of right and wrong.....

Its called morality.

IL - not so sure this can be considered "morality". More like opinion.

Fat Jack · 01-07-2006, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ski Man

"It's just another tool in the tool box," said Schneider.

Isn't this exactly what you'd expect to hear from a law enforcement official? Why does he see this law as a tool to use as he see fit, rather than a burden? Why can't we get someone like this to oversee safety on our lake instead of having a person in his position who always seems to take the side against safety? Out there, the MP fronted the effort to make their lake safer, instead of being its biggest obstacle. While our director of "safety" is joining the local association of GFBL boaters and helping them to fight against the citizens who pay his salary, the MP out there is actually representing his citizens and doing what is best for them, the region, and its economy, not to mention what is safest.
This really highlights the huge probelm that we have with the leadership in Glendale and the struggles that we are going to continue to face until there are major changes made, starting right at the top.

Fat Jack · 01-06-2006, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotDog

I AGREE!!...
marine patrol CAN NOT prove that a boat was going 70 mph in court.. in order for a radar to work you need to know the exact distance from point A to point B !!

when people get a ticket for "speeding." they will be fighting that in court and will win because marine patrol can't prove unless they no the exact distance. so when the speed limit doesn't pass don't be upset!

Don't you guys use radar guns to measure your speeds during Poker Races?

ApS · 01-06-2006, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jack

Don't you guys use radar guns to measure your speeds during Poker Races?

They're "not" races. They're not called Poker Races. They're called Poker Runs, like the 2005 SOTW Poker Run that resulted in a double-fatality at 70MPH. (You can buy the videos online at OSO).

Here's an excerpt of a Donzi Registry Poker Run entrant's use of Lake Winnipesaukee... (user name: "Team Jefe" -- used with permission):

Quote:

"...This is the point it became a race for me…..I know…I know…it’s not a race, it’s a fun run where we all stay together as a group and enjoy the lake. Well that’s just fine….as long as I am in the FRONT part of the group..."

The radar events are called "Radar Runs", or "Radar Shootouts" and are often conducted in conjunction with Poker Races -- er, Runs.

This Virginia announcement is typical, occurring a month prior to the Tourillon double-fatalities in VA, described earlier:

Quote:

Rappahannock River Radar Shootout!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When: June 4th Rain Date:June 11th.
Registration: Day of the event 9:00 am to 10:30 am at June Parker Marina Tappahannock, Va. or at the course 9: to 10:30am.
Cost: $ 25.00 per Boat
Where:East of Bouy #42 Between Carter's Warf and Leedstown. Out of the way of normal boat traffic.
**Mandatory Drivers meeting at the start boat prior to start of event**
**Mandatory Operating kill switch. All other USCG regulations. Helmets not mandatory but recomended. Mandatory PFD rated specifically for boat speed. Open exhaust is allowed only traveling to and from the event and on the course.
I understand their are cliffs on either side to help protect the course from winds.

Offical speeds will be recorded by Rappahannock River Boaters Association radar.

Trophies awarded to top performers in each class. Tee shirts and DVD's will be for sale.

So many errors...so little time.

Aquadeziac · 01-06-2006, 08:20 PM

WOW!! Thats right! These are acurate enough for go-fasters to measure their own boats but not accurate enough to prosecute? Can you say d-o-u-b-l-e s-t-a-n-d-a-r-d ?

Sandy Beach · 02-01-2006, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taz

Many of the speed limit supporters have used Lake George as an example of how speed limits can work. Here is how good its working.

If we compare Lake George Speed Limit with expectations on Winnie we should remember that there is NO 150 foot safe passage rules on lake George. If Winnie has the same Lake George Speed limit should we also remove the 150 foot rule so we can be more like Lake George in this safety issue?

Reading the information about Lake George from both sides it seems that it is all a matter of opinion. Only 5 or 6 speeding tickets a year does not seem like much enforcement or are boaters really keeping their speeds at 45 or less?

We are still phasing in the boater education plan in NH. Why not let that go to completion and then see if we need to change the rules.

12-31-2005, 06:37 PM	#1
Taz Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 346 Thanks: 3 Thanked 70 Times in 47 Posts	Lake George Speed Limit working? Many of the speed limit supporters have used Lake George as an example of how speed limits can work. Here is how good its working. I read an article in the latest edition of "MOTORBOATING". It was about a woman who had a wellknown man in boat racing build her a custom hydroplane capable of exceeding 100 mph. Guess where she plans on using it? You guessed it, Lake George. I can see the word is out not to come to Lake George if you want to speed.

01-05-2006, 08:12 AM	#10
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,735 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,006 Times in 734 Posts	6am - 9pm...... 6am - 9pm, 6am - 9pm, 6am - 9pm, that's about 15 hours from 6am - 9pm. Now, that makes some good safe boating sense to me, thisy here 6am -9pm side of the speed limit law. You know, that summer-time sun takes a long, long time before it goes ker-ker-ker-kerplunk.....splash, and sets down behind the twin peaks of Mts Belknap & Gunstock. 6am to 9pm.........................hut-hut!

01-05-2006, 08:24 AM	#11
Cal Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pitman , NJ Posts: 627 Thanks: 40 Thanked 21 Times in 12 Posts	APS, I read this on the LG site you posted. Sounds like these people really know what they're doing. "Personal Watercraft (PWC) Personal watercraft may be operated between 8am and 7pm(or until sunset)-whichever is earlier. Speed must be limited to 5 mph within 500 feet of shore except when proceeding directly to and from shore. " By the sounds of this , a jet ski can run right up to the beach at 45 mph. Smart people huh? __________________ Paddle faster , I think I here banjos Last edited by Cal; 01-05-2006 at 09:50 AM.

01-04-2006, 10:11 AM	#16
Aquadeziac Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Concord NH Posts: 239 Thanks: 19 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Threats will get the Law passed? Looking at that link: First of all, the logic there is the same type used by the guy that got up at a forum meeting this summer in favor of the Bill by saying "I am a Bass fisherman and my boat will only do 45 mph, Please pass the speed limit so I can be more competitive in the tournaments" duh! Secondly, if all these go fasters do leave as they threaten to, that just means the lake will become more appealing to families with pontoon boats and smaller, slower family boats. They will now rent where the go fasters vacated and pump money into the local area. The down side of that is?? Thirdly, "Property values will go down if the go fasters pull out" Maybe that just means property will be more affordable for the middle income families that will be bringing their slower boats and revenue to the Lake's Region. Again, the downside is? Finally, my feeling is, pass the Law, and wave good-bye as the go-fasters leave, and post their McMansions 'For Sale' cuz there is always someone ready to come in. Bottom line is, there will always be someone there to come in and take the go-fasters place. They will continue to pump money into the regions economy. And if the Law does pass, you will see just how many empty threats of leaving were made. __________________ "He who dies with the most toys wins"

01-06-2006, 10:20 AM	#21
Aquadeziac Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Concord NH Posts: 239 Thanks: 19 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Heres the Tech Maybe someone needs to check this out: http://www.kustomsignals.com/product...ename=handheld Note in the first line where it says "its built specifically for speed enforcement on waterways " and " Designed for patrol use from boat ". That means its not a converted on-highway unit. And this is only one of many different brands out there. Now I suppose these manufacturers don't know what they are talking about ?! They don't know what their own product is capable of?! All the boat owners know better than the manufacturers and trained operators?! Lets see what kinda spin can be put on this. __________________ "He who dies with the most toys wins"

12-31-2005, 07:29 PM	#2
Island Lover Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	I don't see your point. If she operates it at 45 MPH or less she will be fine. If she operates it at over 45 MPH she is breaking the law. How does one person buying a boat capable of exceeding the speed limit mean the law doesn't work? Plenty of people buy cars capable of exceeding the speed limits on our highways. Does that invalidate our highway speed limits?

01-01-2006, 06:17 PM	#4
Taz Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 346 Thanks: 3 Thanked 70 Times in 47 Posts	Island Lover, If you think someone is going to pay over $100k for a custom hydroplane to go 45 mph or less, you are not thinking straight. The point is the Lake George speed limit is a joke, there have been posts on this forum from people who have boated on Lake George who confirm boaters are exceeding the speed limit on Lake George regularly without consequences. The reason someone would buy a boat like that on a lake with a speed limit is because the speed limit is not being strictly enforced. THINK ABOUT IT. You heard it hear first. If Winni does end up with a speed limit the high performance boats will not leave and there will be plenty of boats exceeding the speed limit because the marine is underfunded and understaffed. The speed limit supporters are in for a rude awakening if it passes. They don't really think their paradise is going to suddenly appear like turning on a light switch. Nothing much will change.

01-01-2006, 06:47 PM	#5
Island Lover Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	So your argument is don't pass a law because if you do we will just break it. Once again the opposition puts both feet in its mouth. Have you forgotten the people that have said they WILL leave if HB162 passes? And what about the argument that a speed limit will hurt the lakes economy. If nobody leaves or stays away, how is the economy effected? I did an internet search and found a story about a woman that is having a hydroplane design built for use on Lake George. Is this the woman you are referring to? If so you failed to mention that she is duplicating the boat that won a famous hydroplane race on Lake George in 1933. Her purpose is boating history, not breaking the law. The boat is heading for a museum.

01-02-2006, 10:24 PM	#7
Taz Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 346 Thanks: 3 Thanked 70 Times in 47 Posts	So Island Lover, I suppose you obey speed limit laws every time you drive your car? Why would you think it will be any different on the lake. I have never thought that boaters in any significant quantity will leave the lake if the law passes. I think the speed limit opponents are guilty of scare tactics when they use this one. But the speed limit supporters whole basis for a speed limit is a scare tactic so I will give the opponents a pass on that one. The majority of high performance boats I see on the lake either call Winnipesaukee home or they call NH home so I do not see many leaving. Even if they all did obey the speed limit they will still be noisy. What will all the supporters do then? Personally, I believe this is the biggest reason this law was started, noise, not speed. And no, I am not saying don't pass a law because it will be broken. I have always believed the law should not pass because its not necessary. I am simply pointing out what I believe is reality. And I believe reality is that most high performance boats are not leaving, many will exceed the speed limit, the marine patrol will be relatively ineffective in enforcing it and nothing much will change. And no I did not FORGET to mention that the woman buying the hydroplane did it for historical reasons or that the hydroplane will go to a museum. I didn't mention it because the article I read said nothing about historical reasons or a museum. She said she bought it because her daughter bought one and enjoyed it so she thought she would to. She also admitted in the article to breaking the speed limit the first time she used it (55 mph). I have no doubt that as she gets used to how it handles she will be going faster.

01-02-2006, 10:48 PM	#8
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,964 Thanks: 80 Thanked 979 Times in 440 Posts	I wonder how many of the Pro HB-162 crowd have actually boated on Lake George? I boat there, and there are two well publicized Donzi events held on Lake George every year. I think 2006 will be 10th year for these events. In any case, Lake George does have a speed limit. They don't have a 150' safe passage rule, with the exception of distance to the shoreline. However, this speed limit is NOT aggressively enforced. I have never witnessed anyone getting a speeding ticket on Lake George. I read somewhere that NY publishes the amount of tickets written on Lake George because its a state park and there is an access fee. I believe the grand total was 5 speeding violations written. I am going to try and track that report down. It should make for some interesting reading... Woodsy

01-05-2006, 09:47 AM	#12
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,964 Thanks: 80 Thanked 979 Times in 440 Posts	APS... Have you actually boated on Lake George? I stand by my post... Lake George does not have a 150' safe passage law. They have a 100' safe passage law, that as you so nicely pointed out only applies to shorelines, docks, rafts, stationary boats etc. Their safe passage law has nothing to do with two moving boats, who can legally pass as close as they want, as long as they are traveling under 45MPH. So you are right, because you were moored, you were technically a stationary boat. Had you been in the process of rowing your boat to your mooring, the other boater could have come as close to you as he wanted, certainly far more that you would have been comfortable with, legally. Here is the link to your original story/post. http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...99&postcount=1 I didn't think legal moorings could be that far out into the lake. I stand by my post! Woodsy

01-02-2006, 10:54 PM	#15
Island Lover Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	We all know that you can drive through speed traps on Rt 93 at 5 or 10 MPH over the speed limit and not be stopped. The same will be true on the lake. But we also know that if you were to drive Rt 93 at 100 plus, then before long you will have serious trouble. And if that guy with the boat that goes opens it up, the Marine Patrol Will be happy to deal with him. This is what the official opposition web site says about boaters leaving the lake, read the statements. http://www.opposehb162.com/opposehb162/economy.htm

01-04-2006, 09:08 PM	#18
Taz Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 346 Thanks: 3 Thanked 70 Times in 47 Posts	So Island Lover, you just confirmed that its acceptable to break speed limit laws (going 5-10 mph over the speed limit) Does that mean it will be acceptable to break the speed limit if it passes for the lake? What were you saying about inserting "foot in mouth" in your earlier post? you can count on one hand the boats that are capable of going 100 mph on the lake & even less that even attempt to exceed 90. 99.9% are operating in the 50-70 mph range. So what happens when these boats continue to operate in this range, creating the noise that the supporters are trying to stop? This is what is happening now, its reality & it will not change. It will be business as usual because as you said earlier, exceeding the speed limit will not be an issue with regard to the marine patrol as long as it is not outrageous. Those statements you reference are a very, very very small representation of the total of boaters who use the lake during boating season. The few that do not return will not be noticed. As I said earlier, in my opinion thats not a good argument to oppose the bill.

01-05-2006, 10:15 AM	#19
SAMIAM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 2,891 Thanks: 334 Thanked 1,673 Times in 584 Posts	The go fast boaters don't worry me...they are experienced and educated drivers.It's the rental boats that scare me.Most of them head out without any training or knowledge of the laws and account for far more accidents than other boats. I still say that education is what is needed.

01-06-2006, 12:11 PM	#24
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	It will be enforced Director Barrett is not a stupid man. I'm sure he has worked a long time to get to the position he is in. He is not going to let his reported remarks be used against him. He has no political choice but to vigorously enforce this law, if adopted. So I would expect speed traps at the places where speed are easy to measure and with good chance of success at court. Since there are people who will fight and win against some of these tickets, the MP will fight back with volume. No bureaucrat wants to be called on the carpet. When his boss says "you didn't want this law" he's going to say "here is the proof I'm doing my job" and he will have a bushel of convictions from 46 mph up.

01-06-2006, 08:25 PM	#25
Aquadeziac Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Concord NH Posts: 239 Thanks: 19 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	I think even you have to admit, the point they were making is that their unit is as acurate on the low end of the scale(headway speed) as it is on the high end (40+ mph). __________________ "He who dies with the most toys wins"

01-07-2006, 01:47 PM	#26
Ski Man Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Not working on Lake George? I've been waiting for this to come up today, hoping not to have to post and face all the personal attacks that seem to go with that, but I'm getting impatient and figuring no one has seen it yet. Following is an article in today's Citizen. Now let's hear about how Lake Georges Speed Limits aren't working; http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...073/-1/CITIZEN

01-07-2006, 02:47 PM	#27
Island Lover Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	An excellent article! Thanks for posting it. It disproves most of the arguments made by the opposition. Its nice to get the real story from somebody that has been there. Now the opposition will post that what Lt. Schneider REALLY means is that the speed limit is a bad idea!

01-07-2006, 04:50 PM	#28
Seaplane Pilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,177 Thanks: 664 Thanked 943 Times in 368 Posts	New York knows what's best for NH... OK then. Let's follow the lead of Lake George officials, rather than follow the position of our own NH Marine Patrol - yes, the same NH Marine Patrol that is currently responsible for law enforcement on NH inland and coastal waters. Yes, the same Marine Patrol who have stated that a speed limit is unenforceable and not needed, in their opinion. Why should we believe them, NY must know better? Give me a break, will you. Maybe Rep. Poulliard can sponsor a bill that bans all motorboats in the state. All you island folk can sail or kayak to your island houses. If the real issue is safety, why not? Imagine the safety record then. Wait...he's too busy sponsoring statues to let 17 year old skull-bashing murderers avoid the death penalty. There's a groundswell of support to defeat HB-162, yet the supporters of the speedlimit honestly believe that this is going to pass. Not a chance.

01-07-2006, 05:20 PM	#29
Ski Man Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The silence here from the opposition about the "facts" put forth in this article is pretty deafening. Is SP's rather Simian reply the official response? Are you all agreeing that the position of your man in Glendale, who has absolutely no experience enforcing a boating speed limit, who has buddied up with the very "hens" that he is supposed to be guarding, and who has lost all credibility with statements like "200 miles an hour is just fine on our lakes", rather than that of a real safety-conscious law enforcement official who has a proven track record of success enforcing an identical law for years, and local public officials there who brag about the benefits that their identical law has brought to their region, their ecomony, their tourism, their quality of life, and their overall boating experience? That sounds like a winning approach to me. It just seems so selfish to continue to try to deny to us the same benefits that the citizens out there are enjoying just so you can drive your boats really fast. Woodsy, Doesn't this meet the requirements you set for changing your opinion? Are you a man of your word?

01-07-2006, 05:32 PM	#30
WeirsBeachBoater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 709 Blog Entries: 9 Thanks: 39 Thanked 148 Times in 65 Posts	Quote from Lt Schneider from 5/25/05 From: Lt. Joseph Schneider Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:47 AM Subject: Re: Info request The speed limit on LG is only one regulation of a comprehensive set of regulations passed in 1988 on Lake George when the NYS Legislature recognized the need for additional protection of the unique resource that is Lake George. LGPC regulations were promulgated regarding public safety, resource protection, docks and moorings, and special navigation issues such as overcrowding, vessel noise, PWC operation, and more; as such it is impossible to say what the effect of just the speed limit has been. Lt. J.H. Schneider Director of Law Enforcement Lake George Park Commission PO Box 749 Lake George, NY 12834 NOTE: the last sentence!!!! Seems to me that Lt Schneider can't decide his position on what the speed limit has done for Lake George. May its one way, and now in the citizen in Jan its the other??? What gives?

01-07-2006, 05:51 PM	#32
ApS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro Posts: 5,937 Thanks: 2,205 Thanked 776 Times in 553 Posts	The "Can't Do" Agency Although GFBLs remain their own worst enemy, this article points the bony finger of blame at Director Barrett. His early mis-statements have put his job in peril. __________________ Is it "Common Sense" isn't.

01-07-2006, 05:55 PM	#34
Island Lover Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Seaplane Pilot The Marine Patrol has not taken a position on HB162. You are talking about David Barrett the current Director. He may be director for a long time to come, because if HB162 passes he isn't going to get a cushy job in the boating industry. As I'm sure you know, he has changed his mind and now "supports" HB162. Proving only that he is a political hack. I spoke to a former MP officer that is now a State Representative, he supports HB162.

01-07-2006, 06:11 PM	#35
Fat Jack Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 183 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"Young said Lake George officials join with local law enforcement to check boats as they come out of coves and bays that have bars." Now I understand why the Naswa is so concerned about the possibility of Lake Winnipesaukee becoming more like Lake George. They could lose all of their business.

01-07-2006, 06:20 PM	#36
Ski Man Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here's a quote from a fellow on the other local site that has been a pretty vocal opponent to HB162 there, up until he read to Lake George story today; "Great article in today's Citizen on Lake George and effect speed limit had there. Kind of puts the issue to rest for me." Perhaps he just realized how he has been lied to over the past year. At least some people have the integrity to admit when they have been wrong.

01-09-2006, 12:56 PM	#40
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,964 Thanks: 80 Thanked 979 Times in 440 Posts	Thousands of boats using Lake George... they write 5 or 6 speeding tickets per year, and you call that effective? If HB-162 passes as proposed by the R,R &D majority opinion, Winnfabs will be screaming FOUL at the top of thier lungs if our MP only issued 5-6 tickets per year! Woodsy

01-06-2006, 08:20 PM	#46
Aquadeziac Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Concord NH Posts: 239 Thanks: 19 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Busted!! WOW!! Thats right! These are acurate enough for go-fasters to measure their own boats but not accurate enough to prosecute? Can you say d-o-u-b-l-e s-t-a-n-d-a-r-d ? __________________ "He who dies with the most toys wins"