Lower Crowds

[jrc]

Not only Winnipesaukee experienced lower crowds this year. According to the Boston Globe, many New England parks and beaches have been having a slow season.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...great_indoors/

According to the article, some possible culprits are high gas prices, the internet and video games.

The wildest idea, is to blame standardized testing in schools. I guess everyones studying too hard, no time for field trips. But don't kids still get the summer off?

Winni is not a park with easy to measure entrance fees as a benchmark. Do people on this site see the kind of drop off reported in the article? They're reporting 5% nationwide to around 25% on Mt Katahdin.

[B R]

i agree. i'll be surprised if winni isn't off 15-20% this year. there were two weekends this year could be considered crowded; and one of them wasn't the 4th of july. the last two weekends in july were the busiest all year. we were at timber last weekend and practically had the place to ourselves. the weather wasn't the best, but that never kept people away before.

[SteveA]

I agree,

far fewer folks here... roads are less crowded.. and stores are less crowded

Gas?, cost of hotels? ... I don't know... but the traffic is way down..

SteveA

[Silver Duck]

I, too, have the impression that tourist traffic is way down this year. Perhaps some of our members who are involved in tourism-oriented businesses might have access to some hard data?

Gas prices may be a contributing factor where casual day trippers are concerned; the slow conversion of motels into condos may also have something to do with this.

I'm probably going to get flamed big-time for "outing" this, but I suspect that another reason may be the impression of a rather pronounced lack of welcome for vacationers with boats that I've felt growing over the past few years.

A perfect example of this impression can be found in another current thread, where a first-time visitor who's been checking out some recent threads wondered if there is anywhere on the lake that her family and their friends can tie their boats together without getting in trouble for it.

Does anybody know how many of the boats that were "rousted" by the MP SWAT Team raid at West Alton sand bar a few weeks ago were vacationing boaters? If they were, any bets as to how many of them made their next year's reservations before they went home?

Another contributor to that impression which comes to mind were earlier threads which, in effect, advised boaters from other states that their boater education certificates from their home states were probably worthless and that they needed to get a NH certificate. But, Mr. or Mrs. Vacationer, you won't be able get the necessary certificate on line after this year; NH doesn't trust you not to cheat on the test. From now on you can just drive up so somebody they trust can "proctor" you to make sure you don't!

How about the marker system that has been the subject of recent posts as an impression maker? Even with over 600 hours spent behind the helm over the last 5 seasons and a Bizer-chart equipped color GPS telling me where to look, I find that the darned things can be hard to see in some conditions (e.g., heavy chop looking into the sun). I suspect that the "pucker factor" for a vacationing boater coming up on the Witches or the Graveyard in such conditions can be rather high. But, hey, the present markers are "the NH way" and if the vacationers want to use "our lake" they can just get over it (or buy a new prop!)

Oh, if you own a performance boat and want to bring it with you on vacation, don't bother coming; you're not welcome. You're not real welcome if you're bringing a PWC, either.

And, by the way, better not think about anchoring your boat in front of somebody's property while you have a bite of lunch and enjoy a quick swim, either. You might spoil their view, and they'll call the MP to roust you from there, too (and probably file for a new No Rafting area, to boot). Best figure on eating while you drive (but, drive slowly so you don't make any wake!).

Folks, I love the lake and spend virtually every weekend from ice-out to the end of October up there. I also rarely miss a night on this site (unless I'm up at the lake). But, if I get the above impressions concerning my welcome up there, perhaps the same impressions are being conveyed to other current or potential vacationers?

Something to think about...

Silver Duck

[Cal]

Well Sil , with that outlook I guess some people may be getting what the wished for. Wonder how they'll like it when small businesses start closing because the can't make it with the lesser tourism?
Be careful what you wish for

Sorry to say it looks like I'm going to miss this year

[gtxrider]

I was speaking with the woman who runs the MINI GOLF course in Alton Bay and she says that there have been fewer people coming thru this summer. I would suspect it is related to the high cost of gas.

It seemed as though there was less boat traffic this year during the week I was up in August.

[WakeUp]

I disagree with the price of gas being a reason people won't hit the roads. Let's do the math: If the price of gas averaged about $.50/gallon higher than last summer, and the tank takes 18 gallons to fill, that equals $9.00 extra cost. If the car gets 22 miles/gallon, that means the car can travel 396 miles on a tank...or an additional $.02/mile cost than last year. I feel what the lakes region has to offer FAR out weighs the additional $.02/mile to get here. If an average family of 4 sacrificed going out to dinner just ONCE in a month, (at a cost of $54.00) 6 trips to the lake would be covered...and that's if you lived the full 396 miles away! So....why does the lake seem less crowded? I don't know, BUT I LIKED IT!!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by WakeUp

I disagree with the price of gas being a reason people won't hit the roads. Let's do the math: If the price of gas averaged about $.50/gallon higher than last summer, and the tank takes 18 gallons to fill, that equals $9.00 extra cost. If the car gets 22 miles/gallon, that means the car can travel 396 miles on a tank...or an additional $.02/mile cost than last year. I feel what the lakes region has to offer FAR out weighs the additional $.02/mile to get here. If an average family of 4 sacrificed going out to dinner just ONCE in a month, (at a cost of $54.00) 6 trips to the lake would be covered...and that's if you lived the full 396 miles away! So....why does the lake seem less crowded? I don't know, BUT I LIKED IT!!

I completely concur with this; except for one small detail: the folks that would pass on a trip to the lake this years vs. last year, due to gas prices, have not bothered to do the math. I did the math, gas (especially boat gas) is still a bargain when you factor the fun in.

[gwood]

I was just up to the lake with my small boat the week of August 8th for my first time ever. We had a great time...in fact my kids and wife said we'll have to come back sometime for another week. So, I said let's go next week. We are coming back next week for another expected great time.

We explored almost the entire lake (never got to Alton Bay or Wolfboro) and everyone seemed pretty curtious on the water. Of course I am not out there pushing the limits of the law either. I did space out once my first time through the main channel coming from the broads to Weirs and forgot that it was no wake. I went through doing about 20mph and a 40ft cig boat coming the opposite way gave me some hand signals. I didn't understand why such a big boat would be telling me to slow down....then it dawned on me...doh.

I would rather have tight rules and an MP presence on the water than the alternative. I don't think this stuff makes people NOT come. What makes people shy away from some lakes is LACK of order. Out of staters like myself just need to pick up a Bizer chart and read the lake regulations. It's not that difficult.

This site has been a great help also...thanks.

[Great Idea]

GWood,

Your on to the real reason the number of visitors are down. The percpetion of out of staters and even local state visitors is that Winni has become too crowded and "dangerous". Too little enforcement not too much.... they don't feel its a safe place. Further when they come people can be rude and don't pay any attention to the boating laws. How do we know this? We have talked to dozens and dozes of folks about it and the reasons above have been given across the board. Many of our friends will no longer come on the weekends to see us because they just don't like all the boats on the water ignoring the 150' rules. Another theme we have heard often is that the lake just isn't as scenic as before with all the houses being cut into the hills. Many of them commented that the water is losing it's clarity as well. We all know this is largely from all the building and resulting run off worsened by all the rain we had. I realize many of you will jump on me for this post yet whether you agree with it or not we are having a significant perception problem regarding Winni. A growing negative perception of the lakes area is what is keeping people away. If you want the lake to take care of you (economy etc) then you have got to take care of it in return. Protecting this resource is the way to protect your pocket.

[B R]

well, two differnet views. silver duck appears to take the side of boaters while great idea gives us a land owner perspective.

i think the nh economy and especially the lakes region economy revolves around how many boats are on the lake. if there are a lot of boats on the lake, there's a lot of people in surrounding businesses. no boats on the lake, business suffers.

i personally feel the more restrictions we put on boats on the lake (no rafting zones etc...) the fewer boats we'll end up with and the slower the economy and less nh tax $'s.

[SteveA]

To All,

From nashua telegraph

"Normally, there is a growth of around 4 percent each year, but that’s not the case this summer, according to Bill Boynton, spokesman for the state Department of Transportation.

“There hasn’t been one week where it’s been more than last year,” Boynton said, pointing to the latest turnpike traffic numbers.

Total traffic for the week of July 23 was 557,931, down 7 percent from last year, when the turnpike saw 602,526 vehicles pass through. It was down 5 percent the week of July 16; down 3.1 percent for the week of July 30; down 1.8 percent for the week of August 5, and down 2.8 percent for the week of Aug. 16."

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/...0179/-1/sports

Maybe it's a combination of things... economy, gas prices, boating laws, weather.
It's like the famous saying about porno... "I can't define it... but I know it when I see it.. " I'm seeing it... (not the porno... the reduced traffic!!!! )

Lake is less busy, stores are less crowded.. traffic is lighter (at least here on the Gilford side of the lake)

More numbers will come out of the state tourism department in a few weeks... my bet is that the numbers are down.

SteveA

[jrc]

If you read the Globe and Telegraph articles, it's reported that the slowdowns are at least regional if not national. Mt Katahdin did not lose a third of it's visitors because of 150' violations on Winnipesaukee. I don't know if there is even enough data to compare the drop in Winni visitors to the general drop.

When you think about reasons and trends for a general slowdown, you have to think beyond our local arguements. I'm sure gas prices have some effect. Sure if you think about it rationally, it's only a few dollars more than last year. But when you see those big jumps in prices, it makes you irrational. This may be just a normal economic cycle, things go up and down all the time.

Maybe it's just changing tastes, why is the Winnipesaukee Pier (aka Irwin Gardens) full of pinball machines instead of a swinging nightclub with big bands. Why is the Alton Pavillion changing to residential condo instead of roller skating. Why did Camp Alton stop being a summer camp and sell. People found other interests and those old uses were no longer viable.

[B R]

another point of view:

we had a tremendous slowdown in the economy over the past 5 years, since 2001 (at least that's when i started feeling it in the stock market). maybe it's just taken a few years to trickle down to peoples vacation dollars. when it's just a year or two, it's easier to ignore. but when it's been a tough 5 years, how long can people just ignore the problems. their earned income just isn't streaching as far as it used to. and over the years its compounded into a problem. add to that income in the stock market has turned to losses in the market; 5 years ago gas was gas was $1.70 or so (http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html); 5 years ago you thought your house was going to appreciate at 5 - 10% a year. maybe it's just a normal cyclical trend.

in 1987 we had a stock market correction of 20% across the board. that was followed up in 1989 - 1992 with a 20 - 30% correction in the housing market. could we be sitting in the new "1990" with a couple of years left before we start seeing things improve?

[CEP]

I have been going to the Lake for many, many years, however, in the last 10 years or so, I have only been to the lake a few times. There are many reasons why I have stopped going to the lake. The biggest thing is when you look for a place to stay (in formiliar place) all the cottages and camps have been turned into private homes and if they are renting, the cost is outragious! I can not afford those prices. Then there's the other costs to factor in, Gas, Boat Rental, All kinds of Lake Laws and once on the lake all the places you use to go, you can't, there's what you call a McMansion there! So now maybe once in five years I'll go up for a day and if I should have some extra cash, stay overnight in a real cheep motel, if I can find one!
However, the lake that I once knew is still in my head and all the joyest memories are there. I'm sure as time goes on the number of people visiting the lake will keep falling. To bad how money eats up a good thing!
Greed a terrible cancer!

CEP

[beaner]

I agree with BR. The fact that interest rates are up significantly and RE appreciation has slowed means that fewer people are able to tap home equity to maintain a lifestyle beyond what their income would normally allow.

[KonaChick]

Go to any mall or restaurant on any given weekend...that to me is a good indication that people are still spending money...lots of it.

[Airwaves]

jrc wrote:

According to the following site:

http://nasbla.org/education_requirements.htm

"Only NASBLA-approved New Hampshire and other state certificates are accepted. No certificates issued by private companies are recognized."

Isn't Boat-ed dot com a private company? It says it is on it's website

" Boat Ed is a private organization"

That still doesn't answer the question, why doesn't NH allow NASBLA approved courses offered by others?

[Cal]

I'm going with the slowing of the economy AND high gas prices .
Wakeup did the math but not with my figures . Traveling 800 miles round trip
in a truck getting 13 mph pulling 8000 lbs of boat and trailer. Now toss in a week in a NASWA cottage , food , entertainment and a boat that gets almost 1.5 mph on a good day. Last trip to the lake was over 200 miles on the GPS in a week. We're looking at $2000/$2500 for the week. That will go a lot further staying home and doing the day trip and boat thing PLUS you get two extra days because a day is shot each way in travel ,which is exactly what we did last week
Well , maybe next year at the lake again
Sure did miss the labsta at Sandy Point though

[ITD]

Originally Posted by B R

another point of view:

we had a tremendous slowdown in the economy over the past 5 years, since 2001 (at least that's when i started feeling it in the stock market). maybe it's just taken a few years to trickle down to peoples vacation dollars. when it's just a year or two, it's easier to ignore. but when it's been a tough 5 years, how long can people just ignore the problems. their earned income just isn't streaching as far as it used to. and over the years its compounded into a problem. add to that income in the stock market has turned to losses in the market; 5 years ago gas was gas was $1.70 or so (http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html); 5 years ago you thought your house was going to appreciate at 5 - 10% a year. maybe it's just a normal cyclical trend.

in 1987 we had a stock market correction of 20% across the board. that was followed up in 1989 - 1992 with a 20 - 30% correction in the housing market. could we be sitting in the new "1990" with a couple of years left before we start seeing things improve?

You guys need to fire your brokers, (or maybe hire a good one).

S+P is a couple of hundred points short of all time high,

same for the DOW

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=%5EG...=off&z=m&q=l&c=

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=%5ED...=off&z=m&q=l&c=


since 2001, housing prices on the lake have close to doubled, (my take anyway). A small correction is probably going to happen, but who cares. Gas prices have gone through the roof, probably due more to hype than anything else. The gas prices probably have had a huge impact on some peoples vacation plans. While it may only be "9" extra dollars to fill that tank, some people are worried and hurt by the prospect of having to pay that extra $9 many times a month.

Personally, I've been enjoying the peace and quiet and honestly, I don't think it is down that much from last year.

[Airwaves]

Well the stock market might be doing well, but I saw an interesting take on what's happening in this morning's Herald. It quotes Boston Federal Reserve president Cathy Minehan as warning us not to cheer too loudly about last weeks inflation numbers. She apparently isn't buying them.

http://business.bostonherald.com/bus...ticleid=153847

Unfortunately the online article doesn't have the chart comparing the "new" way of figuring the CPI with the "old" way of doing it.

So while the govt may ignore certain factors in life when it calculates things like this, the rest of us can't. I think all of the reasons stated above play a factor. Gasoline prices, uncertainty about the economy/job, properties going condo, available rental properties prices increasing.

I don't think the boating certificate regulation has had a major impact one way or another.

I think folks that would normally come up to Winni and drop a couple of thousand dollars on vacation are being cautious.

[mets3007]

I just came back from the Weirs area and yes there is less people. The place was a ghost town Saturday and Sunday nite. In the daytime there are people on the boat and train but then at nite they disappear. The hotels are still booked on weekends though, but mid week it was emptier than usual < this is my 18th season up there>.

[B R]

Originally Posted by ITD

You guys need to fire your brokers, (or maybe hire a good one).

S+P is a couple of hundred points short of all time high,

same for the DOW

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=%5EG...=off&z=m&q=l&c=

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=%5ED...=off&z=m&q=l&c=

That's all true. But these historic highs only bring us 1 or 2% higher than it was 5 years ago, in 2001. that's not a great return on your investment money - 1 or 2% over a 5 year period. and you've lost money if your tracking the s&p over a 5 year period. i hope your stock broker is getting you better returns than those #'s. now the nasdaq, on the other hand, was 5500 in 2001 and it's now at just over 2100, less than half what it was in 2001.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by B R

That's all true. But these historic highs only bring us 1 or 2% higher than it was 5 years ago, in 2001. that's not a great return on your investment money - 1 or 2% over a 5 year period. and you've lost money if your tracking the s&p over a 5 year period. i hope your stock broker is getting you better returns than those #'s. now the nasdaq, on the other hand, was 5500 in 2001 and it's now at just over 2100, less than half what it was in 2001.

Actually, he ( broker) has easily beat those numbers. Don't forget, a few little problems happened during that time, 9/11, Iraq among others. The Nasdaq,in the late 90's, was propelled to those highs on the backs of tech stocks most of which were grossly overvalued and over hyped, if not criminally misrepresented (I don't include the obvious now infamous criminal cases in this generalization). We're getting off on a tangent here, my point is that the economy is not all gloom and doom, in fact its been quite robust as evidenced by the FEDs continual interest rate increases. Unemployment is low, you can see this when you drive down RT 25 and see the number of Help Wanted signs. I think the vacation slow down here is more a by product of the sensationalized media coverage of gas prices, most people, not all, but most aren't severely impacted by gas prices. The Speed limit controversy also had an impact because the Lake was portrayed as an unfriendly place, which simply isn't true.

[nj2nh]

Originally Posted by gtxrider

I was speaking with the woman who runs the MINI GOLF course in Alton Bay and she says that there have been fewer people coming thru this summer. I would suspect it is related to the high cost of gas.

It seemed as though there was less boat traffic this year during the week I was up in August.

There was a lot less boat traffic when we were at the lake in June and then the first two weeks of August. The lake looked like a no wake zone in some respects. The owner of the Blue Jay Mini Golf (in Alton) told me what she told you. In fact, the night of the Alton Olde Home Day the mini-golf is usually packed. This year, though, my two boys breezed through (and one of them finally won a free game!).

Jersey Girl

[gtxrider]

I guess it helps to be from Joisey. I hate it when there are no boats out and I can really crank the GTX on flat water. I went out on Monday the 14th of August but it seemed like September.

[jerseyonbear]

This Joisey girl likes the lake when it is quiet. We live with too much hustle and crowds all the time. spent the first two weeks of August on Bear and did notice that the amount of people around was off from previous years. Boat traffic was light on the water and it was easier to get around in Meredith. Parking spots were ample and we did not experience the congestion.Didn 't even have to wait in line at Flurries for my JB Scoops.

[nj2nh]

Hey, gotta love you other Jerseyans! I kind of missed the boat traffic. It just didn't quite seem like Lake Winnie without those boats at 2am. Really, not kidding. It didn't feel the same.
Jersey Girl

[gtxrider]

Originally Posted by Jersey Girl

Hey, gotta love you other Jerseyans! I kind of missed the boat traffic. It just didn't quite seem like Lake Winnie without those boats at 2am. Really, not kidding. It didn't feel the same.
Jersey Girl

Well our family accounts for 1 less boat. Due to a bad summer and both Mom and Dad doing sheet time in the hospital the boat was not in the water at all and the jetski was only in for 1 week. It had nothing to do with gas prices, bad weather, GFBL boats, no wake zones, etc.....

As a Red Sox fan I have learned to say there is always next year!

[Airwaves]

Winnipesauke Divers observed, in part:

Her next question was, “how do you deal with all the hundreds of thousands of boats out there and the crazies they bring, have you no concern for your well being or your crew?” To which my response was, “what are you talking about???” She said you know, with all the traffic out there and no speed limits, it’s virtual free for all and people getting killed every day. To which I just laughed and said, “you know how many boat we passed by to get here from Wolfe city???” “Seventeen and not one came anywhere near me” and that was one of the best days on the lake for a sailboat.

So here is the up shot: most people get their information from the media namely the TV where the story has been slanted to discourage boat traffic. They show pictures of the hot spots like the town docks or the Weirs channel to dramatize their story.

(Rant mode ON)
While I agree that most folks these days unfortunately get the bulk of their news from TV, and that a good live shot when doing a story about the lake is to have boats in the background (therefore you set up at the Weirs or town docks) I want to point out that the bulk of the speed limit debate and all the negativity that it brought was covered by LOCAL NH media. In Boston virtually NOTHING was reported about it, it may have cracked the "news brief" section of the Herald and Globe a couple of times, I can't speak to how it was covered in Portland, but I didn't see anything about it on the National Media It was a LOCAL story!

The only Winnipesaukee story that I recall seeing on Boston TV this year was the fire at Anchor Marine, and that only made Boston TV because Channel 5 and Channel 9 are owned by the same parent company and they had good video of the fire, otherwise it would not have been mentioned. Even the Eagle Island speedboat landing didn't make Boston TV.

No, TV and the Media are not to blame for folks getting the idea that there are thousands of boats on Winni and none of them know how to boat and everyone travels at 70 MPH, the real culprit is the internet.

Yep, forums like this one.

Anyone anywhere can log on and read the debate over speed limits and some of it was, to say the least, over the top. You can still read the debate even though it is no longer active! This is certainly not the only site on the internet that presented that discussion and has archives.

It's easy to blame "the media". People have been doing it for centuries, that's where the saying "don't kill the messenger" comes from, AND nothing has changed. Media is an easy target. But if you really want to look at how much and where the speed limit story got coverage, then the culprit isn't TV or newspapers because there was virtually no coverage outside of NH.

The culprit for impressions of Lake Winnipesaukee and boating that the woman described by Winnipesaukee Divers has? The culprit is US.

(Rant mode OFF)

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

The culprit is US.

Nope, not even close, don't lump me in with that, I'm sure many others will feel the same way. Some of the culprits may be on this forum, but don't blame the forum. I saw many news reports on 6 pm news in the
Boston area about the speed limit and most of the reports portrayed the lake as the wild west during the lawless days........

[Resident 2B]

The news stories about boating on our lake and the speed limit debate was mentioned many times on various Boston TV news broadcasts. It characterized the lake as a dangerous place to be, loaded with boats going 70 or more MPH, all being operated by boaters with little regard for the safety of others. Nothing could have been further from the truth, but stories like this attract the attention of viewers and that is the news game!

Having boated in the ocean for many years prior to relocating my boating to Lake Winnipesaukee, I can assure everyone that the boating on our lake is very passive when compared to the boating in the Boston inner and outer harbors and most other harbors, rips and channels along the New England coast.

As I watched the Boston news reports and the biased exposure they gave to the people pushing for the speed limit, I was very suprised that the Boston TV stations did not make some comparision to local coastal boating, using boaters that had experience in both waters. Then again, if they did, the whole story would have evaporated, as the story then would not attract the viewers or sell the news.

How much effect this has had on the one-week vacationer is unknown to me. However, the traffic seems to be off considerably, and the value of the one-week vacationer to the local businesses is considerable. I believe this inaccurate news was and continues to be a significant contributor to the smaller number of vacationers this summer and I feel something has to be done to address the realities of boating on the lake and to help address this lost business.

I boat out of the Weirs area in a slower bow rider, I own lake front property and I do not rent it, so smaller crowds are not a problem to me. I do feel badly for those people that work hard to make a living in the tourist industry and support the needs of those who spend time at the lake.

R2B

[gtxrider]

Here is proof there are still boats and people enjoying the lake. Wolfeboro on 8/12/2006. If you remember it was a bit windy that day but people still came to the docks.

[Airwaves]

ITD & Resident2B
Interesting posts.

Both of you said you saw the "lawless aspect" of Lake Winnipesaukee portrayed "MANY TIMES" in the Boston News Media.

I am a member of the Boston News Media.

I am curious to know when I mentioned Lake Winnipesaukee in one of my newscasts? I can tell you, can you tell me? Specifically when did I or any of my colleagues talk about or imply there was a "lawless aspect" to the lake?

MANY TIMES?

Easy to say. Since you say these things in such a strong manner I can only assume that you would be able to direct me to the stories that you object to? RE: What outlets and when?

Again, easy to say and accuse "The Evil Media" (so far no one has accused the local media of overblowing the story) but the fact remains, the speed limit debate was a LOCAL issue and was not covered by Boston, New York, or National media. You might think the world revolves around Winnipesaukee, it does not. In the world of news, Winnipesaukee does not even appear on the map.

It's a place I love, but the last time Winnipesaukee got any kind of real news media attention is when Vice President George HW Bush took a ride on the Mount Washington and then only because he was on the boat!

This was an internet issue, period.

Hard to admit, but yes it was the discussion on this forum and others like it that drew attention outside of the area to the issue of speed limits and GFBL Boats. As I said much of that discussion was over the top but it was OUR DISCUSSION that is to "blame".

[Island Life]

As a consumer of the Boston media in the non-summer months, I can say that I never once heard about the speed limit debate in the Boston-area TV, radio or print media. Maybe I missed the odd reference.

But yes, I did read some of the bickering threads about the topic on this forum. But that required knowing about the forum and actively searching for/reading news and comments about the proposed legislation.

My guess is that only a tiny fraction of visitors to this area consult or even know about this forum. I can't imagine the bickering comments and references to lawlessness made much, if any, impact on the number of visitors this summer.

Instead, I blame the low boat traffic on high gas prices, the wet, and recently cold, weather and the economy. Although we live on an island and must use our boat regularly for errands, etc. I would estimate that I used the boat about 2/3 less this summer than I did last year. At $3.35/gallon, my kids can live without weekly trips to Center Harbor for ice cream, Wolfeboro for lunch and all that tubing.

And while I feel for all of you small business owners, the self-interested part of me really enjoyed the quiet lake this summer.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

ITD & Resident2B
Interesting posts.

Both of you said you saw the "lawless aspect" of Lake Winnipesaukee portrayed "MANY TIMES" in the Boston News Media.

I am a member of the Boston News Media.

I am curious to know when I mentioned Lake Winnipesaukee in one of my newscasts? I can tell you, can you tell me? Specifically when did I or any of my colleagues talk about or imply there was a "lawless aspect" to the lake?

Aiwaves,

I have no idea who you are, so I have zero ability to answer your question regarding when you reported on the subject in any of your newscasts.

If you can tell us when and what you reported on the subject as you suggest you can, please do.

I also have no idea where your "lawless aspect" qoute comes from. What I heard and posted were comments about high speed and lack of concern for the safety of others. I did not use the phrase "lawless aspect".

As to where I heard the remarks, that was a while ago and I did not take notes and/or record the channel, date, time and reporter. I do not think many people do this when watching the TV news, but I could be wrong. I know I do not take this kind of note, so I cannot answer this question either.

I watch the Boston ABC outlet, the Boston Fox outlet and NECN. I do not exactly remember what outlet I saw the reports on, but I saw several reports during the winter. In my opinion, there was coverage in the Boston area that did not convey the boating conditions on the lake the way I believe they actually are. Most were sound bites from interviews of people with opinions on the subject.

I do agree with you that forums like this excellent forum had an impact on the preceptions of people as well. My only point was the coverage in the Boston broadcast media was not completely accurate and impacted people's decisions regarding where to spend vacation time.

I am also sure there are other factors such as gas cost and the weather. It all added up to a weak summer season.

Regards,

R2B

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

I am a member of the Boston News Media.

Come on now, thats not a "half share" type of statement. We need a name!!

We came home from a weekend camping trip to Maine last night around 6:30 and it was 54 degrees and raining. The number of cars and people on Lakeside Ave looked more like a sunny Saturday in December then the last Sunday in August, but it was nice to haul the camper through without any trafic.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

....Another contributor to that impression which comes to mind were earlier threads which, in effect, advised boaters from other states that their boater education certificates from their home states were probably worthless and that they needed to get a NH certificate. But, Mr. or Mrs. Vacationer, you won't be able get the necessary certificate on line after this year; NH doesn't trust you not to cheat on the test. From now on you can just drive up so somebody they trust can "proctor" you to make sure you don't!
....

I've been thinking about this issue since I was involved in this thread on the Searay owners site:

http://www.searayowners.com/forum/fo...s.asp?TID=7132


Basically the person wants to know if he should visit Lake George or Lake Winni. He eventually picks Lake George because his Boat US safety test isn't recognized in NH. He's from western Mass. I'm all for the boating safety tests but I think NH maybe getting a little picky.

[Airwaves]

Does anyone know for certain why NH doesn't recognize the Boat/US boating certificate? It is recognized by the NASBLA.

[jrc]

According to the following site:

http://nasbla.org/education_requirements.htm

"Only NASBLA-approved New Hampshire and other state certificates are accepted. No certificates issued by private companies are recognized."

[William_Philipp]

Originally Posted by jrc

According to the following site:

http://nasbla.org/education_requirements.htm

"Only NASBLA-approved New Hampshire and other state certificates are accepted. No certificates issued by private companies are recognized."

I think that is being picky by NH, I have one of these certificates from FL and they said it was okay to be used in NH, but the state says different. Now I am stuck taking the course again for the third time

It says right on there NASBLA approved and the test is probably the same as the other online tests.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

"...I suspect that another reason may be the impression of a rather pronounced lack of welcome for vacationers with boats that I've felt growing over the past few years..."

Seeing a "Larger-Boat Trend"?

Twenty years ago, it wouldn't have been too unusual to have one small boat anchored off this shoreline for several hours.

Fifteen years ago, it wouldn't have been unusual to see five or six anchored along this shore on a weekend. In the past decade, there have been five or six aoong the shoreline—all season long.

Today there are none—all season. They congregate instead in a quiet, protected, small cove nearby.

Why? The tubing trend has produced near-constant wake action—not a peaceful environment for a quiet and scenic lunch on the lake. The cove also protects against Jet-Ski intrusions: Oddly, there is a trend to tow the family's Jet-Skis to the cove! Now that both sides of that cove are being bulldozed for McMansions, expect the inevitable NRZ there. (Another trend).

What's worse is that tubers are being towed by big and scary examples of the "Larger Boat" trend. The trend to increasingly-larger boats is driven by speed and "ride comfort" (among other considerations): As a result, wakes from "those other boats" are now trending still larger!

Now the trend to larger boats is being confronted by the dual-trends of higher gas consumption and higher gas prices.

Another trend: The McMansion trend started about 1985, even replacing entire boys' camps. Each under-used McMansion replaces one or more "family camps nestled in the pines". The trend toward increased property taxes are reducing the numbers of affordable summer rentals, already being crunched by gas price increases of the past couple of years.

Even restaurants are trendier: It's not difficult to see why we're not seeing the crowds of fifteen years ago.

For the opinions regarding last season's crowds, (and more grist for the mill ), see here.

[SAMIAM]

Let's get Jimmie Carter back in there........love that 20% inflation......12% unemployment and 12% interest rates

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by b r

in 1987 we had a stock market correction of 20% across the board. that was followed up in 1989 - 1992 with a 20 - 30% correction in the housing market. could we be sitting in the new "1990" with a couple of years left before we start seeing things improve?

Reminder: The situation tends to get worse before it gets better.

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Let's get Jimmie Carter back in there........love that 20% inflation......12% unemployment and 12% interest rates

Use caution on your visits to the Wishing Well, if only in jest. It's only two more years to being the beginning of reality for that wish.

Summary: Good time to sell was last year for those underfunded for the long-run downhill that lies ahead.

Time will tell and best wishes to all with regards to not seeing the "family farm" go bye-bye at auction.

[lfm]

Weather. Last year I was waterskiing in May. The high water and NWZ kept us away until the lake level returned to normal levels and the No Wake restrictons were lifted.

The high price of gas is a factor, when you consider the fact that it doesn't just impact my leisure costs, towing and operating a boat, but it impacts me every day as I drive 80 miles to get to and from work. Factor in my truck isn't the ideal commuter car and I cringe as I fill it up twice a week just to get to work, but then an economy car wouldn't make a very good tow vehicle.

Finally the biggest impact - baseball. My son made the all-star team and the baseball season was extended through July this year.

At least the high price of gas is some comfort as I contemplate all of the lost days at the lake.

[Winnipesaukee Divers]

Here’s my take on the fewer crowds… Here’s an all to typical comment that was made to me the other day. We ventured over to Meredith to make the pilgrimage up the hill to Harts (always worth the hike), while at the docks I had a conversation with a middle-aged woman. Her first question was, “isn’t your boat too big for the this lake?” My reply was, “I guess you haven’t seen this lake.” Her response was, “why yes I have, we use to boat here all the time, but not any more”. Her next question was, “how do you deal with all the hundreds of thousands of boats out there and the crazies they bring, have you no concern for your well being or your crew?” To which my response was, “what are you talking about???” She said you know, with all the traffic out there and no speed limits, it’s virtual free for all and people getting killed every day. To which I just laughed and said, “you know how many boat we passed by to get here from Wolfe city???” “Seventeen and not one came anywhere near me” and that was one of the best days on the lake for a sailboat.

So here is the up shot: most people get their information from the media namely the TV where the story has been slanted to discourage boat traffic. They show pictures of the hot spots like the town docks or the Weirs channel to dramatize their story. When in reality most of the boats that parade through the channel, do so just so they can turn around to parade back through and has little to do with actual congestion due to over crowding.

Who’s driving this media campaign? Well, in my mind, it’s the same people who keep telling the biggest boat that should be allowed on the lake is a 24 footer, which just so happens to be the size of the boat parked in their slip in front of their house. Looks like it’s done a pretty good job. Of course, the cost of fuel and the weather have also taken it’s toll as well.

[Airwaves]

Okay, since you can’t tell me when you saw these Boston TV reports that were “inaccurate” I did a Lexus Nexus search between January 1, 2005 and today. I used the name “Winnipesaukee” to search. Below is what the search turned up.

In addition there were 44 hits on Major Newspapers, none involved the speed limit debate. So, where are those distorted and inaccurate stories?

When I searched for Winnipesaukee Speed Limits I got NO HITS

As I said, this was a LOCAL story and if the perception is there are hundreds of thousands of boats doing 70MPH on Winni, it doesn't come from the regional media, it more likely comes from the internet and word of mouth.


SHOW: Newscenter 5 At
August 17, 2005, Wednesday 18:00-18:30 ET
NETWORK: WCVB-TV
MEDIUM: Television
TYPE: Local TV
LENGTH: 139 words
BODY:
START: 00:13:25
Teased Segment - Real Estate; Real estate values soar at Lake Winnipesaukee.

SHOW: The News At
August 11, 2005, Thursday 21:00-22:00 ET
NETWORK: NECN
MEDIUM: Cable
TYPE: Local Cable
LENGTH: 120 words
BODY:
START: 00:41:29
Teased Segment - Lake Changes; Some residents along Lake Winnipesaukee are apprehensive about MA Governor Mitt Romney possible run for the White House, in terms of how it will effect their community.

SHOW: Fox 25 Morning News
August 11, 2005, Thursday 07:00-08:00 ET
NETWORK: WFXT-TV
MEDIUM: Television
TYPE: Local TV
LENGTH: 26 words
BODY:
START: 00:07:05
Toddler Drowns; Toddler Drowns at Lake Winnipesaukee in NH.

SHOW: Fox 25 Morning News
August 11, 2005, Thursday 08:00-09:00 ET
NETWORK: WFXT-TV
MEDIUM: Television
TYPE: Local TV
LENGTH: 26 words
BODY:
START: 00:08:32
Toddler Drowns; Toddler Drowns at Lake Winnipesaukee in NH.

SHOW: Newscenter 5 Eyeopener
July 29, 2005, Friday 05:00-06:00 ET
NETWORK: WCVB-TV
MEDIUM: Television
TYPE: Local TV
LENGTH: 94 words
BODY:
START: 00:10:58
Teased Segment - Governor Romney's home; Residents of Lake Winnipesaukee in New Hampshire say they feel violated by Governor Romney and his massive water front property there.

NEW YORK TIMES
January 20, 2005 Thursday
SECTION: Section A; Column 2; Pg. 20
LENGTH: 10 words
HEADLINE: a day for fishing and football hopes
BODY:
Photo of ice fisherman on Lake Winnipesaukee in New Hampshire.

SHOW: CBS 4 News
January 10, 2005, Monday 05:00-06:00 ET
NETWORK: WBZ-TV
MEDIUM: Television
TYPE: Local TV
LENGTH: 27 words
BODY:
START: 00:05:47
Snowmobile Accident;
Reader - Two people were killed in a snowmobile accident over the weekend at Lake Winnipesaukee. :LR

SHOW: CBS 4 News
January 10, 2005, Monday 05:00-06:00 ET
NETWORK: WBZ-TV
MEDIUM: Television
TYPE: Local TV
LENGTH: 17 words
BODY:
START: 00:39:08
Snowmobile Accident; Recap. Keywords; Lake Winnipesaukee. :LR

SHOW: CBS 4 News
January 10, 2005, Monday 06:00-07:00 ET
NETWORK: WBZ-TV
MEDIUM: Television
TYPE: Local TV
LENGTH: 30 words
BODY:
START: 00:04:10
Snowmobile Accidents; There were two snowmobile accidents over the weekend where two people died in NH.

SHOW: Fox 25 Morning News
January 10, 2005, Monday 06:00-07:00 ET
NETWORK: WFXT-TV
MEDIUM: Television
TYPE: Local TV
LENGTH: 23 words
BODY:
START: 00:33:02
Deadly Accident; Deadly Accident Reported in Lake Winnipesaukee, NH.

SHOW: The Morning News
January 10, 2005, Monday 07:00-08:00 ET
NETWORK: WSBK-TV
MEDIUM: Television
TYPE: Local TV
LENGTH: 23 words
BODY:
START: 00:04:31
Snowmobile Accident; Two snowmobilers from MA was killed over the weekend in Lake Winnipesaukee. :LR

SHOW: The 10PM News
January 9, 2005, Sunday 22:00-22:30 ET
NETWORK: WSBK-TV
MEDIUM: Television
TYPE: Local TV
LENGTH: 41 words
BODY:
START: 00:02:12
Snowmobile Accident; Another MA man killed in a snowmobile accident in Lake Winnipesaukee in NH.

[Airwaves]

I just finished another refined search using the term "Winnipesaukee Speed Limits". I got 48 hits from newspapers. 31 of those were newspapers in NH, 15 stories were from the NH Associated Press, 1 from the NY Times and 1 from the Worcester Telegram and Gazette.

The AP stories are distributed to news organizations throughout the region but it is up to the individual newspaper TV or radio station to use it or not.

So, as I said, this was a Local media issue.

[Gavia immer]

Airwaves

You blame Internet conciousness-raising for Winnipesaukee's lower crowds, but you wrote that the culprit was US.

Wasn't the culprit Littlefield? I'd like to see that search.

[Airwaves]

I did a search from 8/1/02 to today, I got 72 hits using the key words "Littlefield" and "Winnipesaukee"

41 articles were in NH papers
28 articles were by NH Associated Press
1 article appeared in the Boston Herald
1 article appeared in the Boston Globe
1 article appeared in the Portland Herald.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

Airwaves

You blame Internet conciousness-raising for Winnipesaukee's lower crowds, but you wrote that the culprit was US.

Wasn't the culprit Littlefield? I'd like to see that search.

I would think WinnFABS would be the real culprit if one assumes the Internet is the source of information making people decide not to come to such a dangerous place. Oddly, they cited the economic health as one of the reasons for the proposed speed limit. It would be kinda ironic if they actaully caused the economic downturn through hype in their attempt to "educate" us. I don't think the Littlefield accident had any measurable impact on tourism, but just looking at data from 2002 to last year would easily prove or disprove that.

That said, I think it's ludicrous to think that the internet has much to do with poor tourism when we've had such an awful Spring/early Summer and such a cold August during a general economic downturn nationwide.

[Cal]

I just hope the people who are complainiing about the lesser crowds aren't the same ones who complained ABOUT the crowds although it wouldn't suprize me as some people are never satisfied.
Quite a few of my last visits have been on a Mon/Fri basis since the weekends were getting rather crazy. I do enjoy being able to dock at town docks anytime like during the week with out the wait and some of the idiots in rentals who don't know what they're doing.
For me , this season , yes it was economic. $2000 for a week at the lake will buy me a lot of gas locally. It amounts to 10 weekends on the Chesapeake , which BTW aside from water clarity isn't a whole lot different from the lake with its places to go and things to do.
I never realized you people would miss me so much

[Lakegeezer]

Monday morning, I heard a report on NH public radio while driving home from the lake. It mentioned that NH is losing a lot of its young people because house prices were up, job opportunities were down, and night life for singles was sparse. What a change 25 years makes!

In the early 80's, high-tech jobs were plentiful in southern NH, land and houses were easy to find and priced right - especially for those on high-tech salaries. Night life was never a NH strong point, but the quality of life seemed to suit young adults - and they moved to NH in droves. That is when I found Lake Winnipesaukee. It had very clean water, and lots of undeveloped shoreline where one could "raft" and enjoy a day in the sun.

History is full of cycles. Today, high-tech jobs (or good jobs in general for that matter) are hard to find in NH, housing prices are out of sight and much of the available building land has wetlands involved. Night-life (at least in the Nashua, Manchester, Portsmouth, Concord quadrant) is much improved (although nothing like Boston). Perhaps part of the problem is a change in the appreciation of nature, along with the condition of nature. While the lake is still wonderful, the over building, weekend overcrowding, and recent floods means that it takes more effort to enjoy it.

Is today's "20 something" generation willing to put in the extra effort it takes to enjoy nature - or are they more interested in social interaction in clubs or on the internet? Gas prices, over regulation, virus laden bugs and abnormal weather patterns are not helping the lakes region sustain its level of activity - but how much impact are we seeing from the changes in choices made by the next generation of young adults? Is this a 10+ year trend or just an abnormal blip?

[dpg]

Personally I don't think "20 somethings" were ever more willing to move into the lakes region than today. Even when the lakes region had a "night life" it really didn't have a night life. People who like hunting, fishing, etc were always willing to move "up north" those who don't wouldn't.

[Weirs guy]

I think there's a drastic diffrence between southern NH (Concord and south) and the lakes region on north (we used to joke that anything south of Bow was part of Mass anyway). I don't think a lot of 20 somethings looking for a tech job and nightlife would be anywhere north of Concord, and any 20 something looking for a quieter life would be south of there. Now, there may be a connection between the southern part of the state loosing 20 somethings and the crowds here being down this summer.

[Airwaves]

Dave R wrote:
That said, I think it's ludicrous to think that the internet has much to do with poor tourism when we've had such an awful Spring/early Summer and such a cold August during a general economic downturn nationwide.
__________________

I agree, my postings re: the Boston Media were in response to Winnipesaukee Divers contention that it was inaccurate coverage of Winnipesaukee issues by Boston TV that was responsible for the perception among some that Winni is a lawless wild west kind of place with GFBL boats everwhere doing 70 mph.
My contention is that the internet played a much larger role than anything the Boston media did or didn't do as far as creating the perception.

As far as the drop off in tourism this year, The day trippers were effected by the weather, longer term renters were cautious because of the economy. It doens't get much simpler.

I also agree that 20 somethings are less likely to look toward the Lakes Region to settle. Perhaps this downturn in the economy will cool things off for a while. While it will be bad for the pocketbooks it might be a good thing in the long run.

BTW I never understood families that bought homes in Southern NH and worked in Mass, they end up with a double wammy! High NH property taxes AND paying Massachusetts income tax!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

I agree, my postings re: the Boston Media were in response to Winnipesaukee Divers contention that it was inaccurate coverage of Winnipesaukee issues by Boston TV that was responsible for the perception among some that Winni is a lawless wild west kind of place with GFBL boats everwhere doing 70 mph.
My contention is that the internet played a much larger role than anything the Boston media did or didn't do as far as creating the perception.


BTW I never understood families that bought homes in Southern NH and worked in Mass, they end up with a double wammy! High NH property taxes AND paying Massachusetts income tax!

I think we are in agreement.

When I was a 20 something, we bought a house in southern NH for half what we would have paid in Northern MA where I work. That half price goes a long way toward paying higher property taxes AND my drive to the lake is <1 hour. It was not a concious decision to pay more taxes, it was a decision to have more house for less money. No regrets.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I think we are in agreement.

When I was a 20 something, we bought a house in southern NH for half what we would have paid in Northern MA where I work. That half price goes a long way toward paying higher property taxes AND my drive to the lake is <1 hour. It was not a concious decision to pay more taxes, it was a decision to have more house for less money. No regrets.

My parents made the exodus from greater Boston. I guess it was my decision to pay high NH property taxes and high Mass income taxes. I accepted that juicy job offer and Chelmsford didn't seem all that far from Nashua. Twenty-five years later, I'm still paying. Maybe my tag line should be:

Just ANOTHER Mass TAXPAYER that is NOT allowed to VOTE!

[Winnipesaukee Divers]

If you can't even get my story straight when it printed out right in front of you, how do you expect these fine folks here on the forum to have any respect for anything you say from now on? Actually, I though you were making a pretty good case even though you were extrapolating the facts a little far, but then you went and stuck your foot right in your mouth.

Good thing Don put the "edit" button on the bottom of the page... Perhaps you should re-read my post then go back to your last post and make the corrections. Looks like you’re a little touchy about the media, wonder why that is?

BTW: What size boat did you say you had???

[Airwaves]

winnipseaukee Divers originally wrote:

So here is the up shot: most people get their information from the media namely the TV where the story has been slanted to discourage boat traffic.

If you didn't believe this statement, why did you write it? As I have shown the story has NOT been slanted to discourage boat traffic, in fact Lake Winnipesaukee has not even made a ripple on Boston TV or Media.

But then you went even a step further yourself!

Who’s driving this media campaign? Well, in my mind, it’s the same people who keep telling the biggest boat that should be allowed on the lake is a 24 footer, which just so happens to be the size of the boat parked in their slip in front of their house. Looks like it’s done a pretty good job.

And with that statement not only did you accuse me and my colleagues of slanting a story that didn't exist, but announced that we are part of an organized campaign to eliminate a class of boat from the lake!

Yep, I took it personal, you challenged my integrity and I don't react well to that.

FYI, I control two boats the one on Winni is a 21' Cobalt 235HP

[Lakegeezer]

During the speed limit debate, the Manchester Union Leader had at least one editorial that promoted the speed limit. It parroted many of the fear arguments which were well refuted in this forum. It was as if they just used the press releases that they were given by the speed-limit political action committee. I was insulted when the Union Leader did not print a "letter to the editor" that I wrote to refute their editorial.

I believe that much of the news is impacted by special interests - and there is little fact checking. The Karr (Benoit murder suspect) sensation that the news community inflicted us with last week is a good example of why we shouldn't be trusting journalists. It was front page news every day, yet it was pretty clear - very early - that it would end like it did. Faux news gets the ratings I guess.

Reasons to be afraid sell well too. I don't watch the Boston news stations so can't comment on their impact on the Mass attitude of Winni - but I am confident that the speed-limit proponents and their PAC money influenced the press, right before they took the faux poll that indicated people had been made afraid of boating on the lake. Their "education" of the public probably had some impact on the "dangerous lake" traffic. For that, I thank them.

[Winnipesaukee Divers]

Where do you see in my original post any reference to the "Boston" media??? To set this record straight: the woman I was talking to said she lives in Pittsfield NH. However, she was just one of many who have express concerns on safety on the lake due to overcrowding. When asked just where they get this impression they all say the media...

It is clear to me just who's driving this campaign any why... People always single me out due in part to the size of my boat to engage me in conversations. These conversation always lead to the topic of overcrowding and danger of boating on the lake now days. Surprisingly many even lecture me on banning all boats over 24' because we take up to much space. My response is: I just smile and shake my head walk off thinking to myself "What a wack job" Just like I 'm going to do with you, Airwaves.

[SIKSUKR]

Thank you.