Generator backup?

[codeman671]

I want to install a generator for backup power this season at the island and need some advice on which way to go. I have come up with three options:

1. I have a nice Honda 5000 watt portable now which I could install a genset and use but am concerned if it will be big enough. I need to run my water pump (lake feed submersed), electric water heater, fridge, mini fridge and a bunch of lights/outlets. I see the pluses as being that I already own it, gas is cheap compared to propane on an island, and the remaining setup would not cost much. Maybe not big enough? Also the possibility of it not starting when needed?

2. I could go with a permanent installed propane powered home system. These are quiet, reliable, and could easily provide more than enough power. I am concerned about gas consumption mainly, it looks like they burn 2-3 gallons of LPG per hour, and being that our gas costs us $110 a 100lb (somewhere in the vicinity of 23-25 gallons) bottle delivered the costs to run it could be steep, especially for long periods of time.

3. Sell the 5000 watt Honda, buy a bigger gas powered unit and install a genset. Extra expense, but more than enough power possible and ease of getting fuel. Not instant on though, you still also run the possibility of it not starting after sitting.

Any thoughts from those that have looked into or done this already?

[islandAl]

for how long do you think you NEED the backup. Do you really need the hot water for this period?
What have past outages been, hours, days or weeks? Is it for convience or required need, as in living full time and not weekend visit?
5000 is decent size for routine backups and would handle the pump, mini fridge, lights and normal duty outlets (not several portable heaters) nor electic stove, microwave okay.
I have installed a storage tank for water above second floor. Fill early in season and close valve to run on pressure system. If power goes out, can close off pressure system and use gravity feed to wash and flush. No hot water. Use smaller generator for few lights and can cook on outdoor grill. Back to the (almost) roughing it days.

[ApS]

At the next opportunity, you might consider installing a 90-gallon hot water heater. That's enough hot water "standing by" for up to three days.

Alternatively, you could install a standby 120-volt hot water heater in a capacity that the smaller-sized generators could handle.

On the other hand, the permanently-installed propane powered home systems are touted as a major asset in homes for sale: on an island, even more so.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

At the next opportunity, you might consider installing a 90-gallon hot water heater. That's enough hot water "standing by" for up to three days.

Alternatively, you could install a standby 120-volt hot water heater in a capacity that the smaller-sized generators could handle.

On the other hand, the permanently-installed propane powered home systems are touted as a major asset in homes for sale: on an island, even more so.

That 90 gallons won't be going anywhere without the pump, which won't run without power. Unless he buys a generator, the 90 gallon tank would be a poor investment

[jlrm73]

We purchased our used Craftsman 5600 watt (8600 surge) generator on NHiMarket from someone in Conway for $400!! It is in great shape, and runs our house (a 2 BR ranch) without issue. Yesterday, we ran the whole house for 6 hours, and I mean the whole house! We have used it twice this winter. What a great buy. We had the breaker panel wired so we can just shut off power from the pole and plug the whole box right into the generator, flick a switch, and it's pretty slick! (Is this a "genset"? I don't know the lingo...sorry!)
I say it's enough power, the Honda you have...our 5000 watt has no trouble whatsoever running a house!

[jrc]

I'd guess that your hot water heater is the biggest user. A lot of residential heaters are 220 volts, is yours and can your Honda make 220? Everything else should fit within your 5000 watts. Maybe just change the water heater to propane and use the Honda.

[SIKSUKR]

I would bet your gen produces 220.My el cheapo Generac 5000 has an outlet for the full capacity of the generator.I just connect it to the service panel through another double pole breaker and energize the panel.It does not matter if you use 220 or 110.You just use twice as many amps of 110 but the total watts are the same.I run my whole house off of this size generator.I just can't run the clothes dryer or stove\oven.I never turn off the other breakers,I just don't use those appliances.My hot water comes from my furnace so I'm not using electric (except the boiler burner) to heat it.I use my fridge,water pump,tv's,furnace and lights,especially the outside ones to tickoff the neighbors with no problem.

[codeman671]

My generator does 220v. Our water heater and pump are both 220v. Our stove is gas and the dryer would not be necessary. The satellite tv on the otherhand...

I am leaning towards the gas setup, again the usage is my concern. If I bite the bullet I may have a 500 gallon submarine installed with an extra input for a 100lb bottle just in case. Probably overkill but if the power goes down and the kids can't watch Nickelodeon there may be a mutiny.

[Lucky2Bhere]

For whole house propane generators does anyone have an opinion on Kohler vs Generac? We've been out almost 48 hours with no well pump, septic pump, or heat. Thank God for friends and neighbors. No sign of when the coop will show up.

[fatlazyless]

Pretty low prices, but how's the quality of the Mindong Yanan generators sold by www.harborfreightsalvage.com in San Diego. At about $450., anyone hear anything good about them? Cound be difficlut to get parts and serviced? Have not got a clue!

[Orion]

We have a portable 4500W (6000W peak) gas powered generator for when our island power goes out. The main use is for water (we also have a submersed 220V pump) and septic pump (120V). We've used it twice since we got it 2 years ago. It easily runs the above plus fridge (important to save food) and most of the lights and TV/satellite. It isn't even close to reaching capacity. I'm using a transfer switch with load guages I got from http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/
They also have some generator selection guides. The main thing is what do you really NEED in a power outage...and as others have said, how long do you expect to be without? We run it before going to bed to get the fridge cold then again in the morning to cool it down again and run water. Nobody likes to hear your generator running full time anyway, so it's only on part time. The generator needs to have 220 outputs if you want to power both 120 and 220 types of circuits through a multi-circuit transfer switch.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Orion

We have a portable 4500W (6000W peak) gas powered generator for when our island power goes out. The main use is for water (we also have a submersed 220V pump) and septic pump (120V). We've used it twice since we got it 2 years ago. It easily runs the above plus fridge (important to save food) and most of the lights and TV/satellite. It isn't even close to reaching capacity. I'm using a transfer switch with load guages I got from http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/
They also have some generator selection guides. The main thing is what do you really NEED in a power outage...and as others have said, how long do you expect to be without? We run it before going to bed to get the fridge cold then again in the morning to cool it down again and run water. Nobody likes to hear your generator running full time anyway, so it's only on part time. The generator needs to have 220 outputs if you want to power both 120 and 220 types of circuits through a multi-circuit transfer switch.

What brand is your generator?

[Orion]

Originally Posted by NightWing

What brand is your generator?

Nightwing, it's a Generac

[SIKSUKR]

Absolutely right about biting the lineman if you don't turn off the main before applying the power from the generator. The good thing,if you could call it good,if you don't turn the main off is your generator will stall immediately.The lineman could get bit but it will be very short.

[Finder]

Jury rigging a generator can and will definately kill lineworkers. Get a transfer switch or use gererator to appliance or load wires. #14 to #12 extention cords, depending on load. There are laws to prevent potential backfeeding in most places.

[Just Sold]

You see the phone companies using Kohler generators on their small sub-stations so they must be reliable.

My brother has a Kohler propane fired generator and loves it. It runs everything in his 1600 sq ft home including the water heater and dryer but not the electric ceramic furnace which needs mega current but it is off peak use and is cheaper than oil or gas to run normally. A small wood stove heats the whole place as needed when the power is out. (Super hi-tech construction and insulation helps) He is way up in Maine just off the coast. His house will be featured in a couple of arcitectual mags this year.
http://www.knightarchitect.com/curre...berry%20field/

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Orion

We have a portable 4500W (6000W peak) gas powered generator for when our island power goes out. The main use is for water (we also have a submersed 220V pump) and septic pump (120V). We've used it twice since we got it 2 years ago. It easily runs the above plus fridge (important to save food) and most of the lights and TV/satellite. It isn't even close to reaching capacity. I'm using a transfer switch with load guages I got from http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/
They also have some generator selection guides. The main thing is what do you really NEED in a power outage...and as others have said, how long do you expect to be without? We run it before going to bed to get the fridge cold then again in the morning to cool it down again and run water. Nobody likes to hear your generator running full time anyway, so it's only on part time. The generator needs to have 220 outputs if you want to power both 120 and 220 types of circuits through a multi-circuit transfer switch.

Great site. I like the Winco portables that run LP, NG or regular gas. That is slick!

[Rattlesnake Islander]

You could test your Honda to see if it will do the job for just a few bucks. You just need a 220 plug that will plug into your generator a breaker in your elect panel and some wire to connect the two. Then just shut off the main breaker that comes in from the meter,start gen,then turn on breaker from gen. Turn on everything you will use when power is out and see how it works out. That way you will know for sure if it's big enough or not before you really need it(power outage)

[ApS]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

"...I use my fridge,water pump,tv's,furnace and lights, especially the outside ones to tickoff the neighbors..."

This neighbor wouldn't be ticked-off at all.

I have no generator, so when the bedroom heater quit late one night, I got up expecting to probe at the fuse panel. The emergency lighting from a McMansion ½-mile away was illuminating my whole house!

There's no excuse for my not having a generator, as some of my Florida neighbors have two—due to hurricanes Charley, Ivan, Georges, Frances, Ivan, Jeanne, Rita, Katrina and courtesy of FEMA.

Originally Posted by NightWing

..That 90 gallons won't be going anywhere without the pump, which won't run without power. Unless he buys a generator, the 90 gallon tank would be a poor investment...."

Codeman's 5000 Honda should be sufficient for the waterpump: however, you've got me thinking that all that's needed to have 90 gallons of handy gravity-fed hot water is to be installed higher than the lowest showerhead in the house.

I've owned both 90- and a 20-gallon tanks: the 90 was an option advised for solar collection and got installed, coincidentally, somewhat higher than the showerheads. The 120v/20-gallon tank I personally installed at another house to replace a 220v/40-gallon heater.

The 20 gained some storage space, was cheap to buy, relatively economical to run, and was very easy to install. However, if the supplied water temperature is at today's 39° lakewater temperature, it wouldn't be suitable for even a small family.

As an auxiliary water heater, a small generator would handle it...umm...handily.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Islander

You could test your Honda to see if it will do the job for just a few bucks. You just need a 220 plug that will plug into your generator a breaker in your elect panel and some wire to connect the two. Then just shut off the main breaker that comes in from the meter,start gen,then turn on breaker from gen. Turn on everything you will use when power is out and see how it works out. That way you will know for sure if it's big enough or not before you really need it(power outage)

This is actually how I use mine.You can't damage the generator,it will just stall when overloaded.However,I found out the hard way,make sure you take the load off the generator before starting/restarting by turning off the breaker you used to supply power to the panel.And definately turn off the main breaker or you will be trying to power everybody on the power grid.

[TomC]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

....And definately turn off the main breaker or you will be trying to power everybody on the power grid.

Failure to do this can do more than try to power the whole grid - it can result in the electrocution of linecrews working on the wires nearby (which is not uncommon since the source of the outage can lie nearby).

This is why transfer switches have a break-before-make feature to disconnect from the grid before connecting the house to the generator.

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by TomC

Failure to do this can do more than try to power the whole grid - it can result in the electrocution of linecrews working on the wires nearby (which is not uncommon since the source of the outage can lie nearby).

This is why transfer switches have a break-before-make feature to disconnect from the grid before connecting the house to the generator.

Couldn't have said it better, Tom. Unless you really know what you are doing by wiring your own breaker into the panel and manually shutting off the main breaker, you're better off with a transfer switch to make it foolproof. In times like the present storm when outages last several days and people hook up generators, they often don't shut off their own main disconnect and therefore, as you stated, they are putting line voltage out onto the system in the street and the potential is there for a lineman to get hurt. Most of the safety policies with public utilities call for them to ground the neutral before working on their wires, just for that reason.

Blue Thunder

[fatlazyless]

Oops, wrong thread...my bad, earlier today I posted in a nearby thread that the ... J.R. Discount store on Route 104, New Hampton, about one mile from exit 23 on Route 93, has these Pro-Con 2500 watt-gasoline 5.5hp generators for $250. Looks like they had about six on the floor. Reconditioned returns from the Pro-Con factory or something. Looked like new, and looked ok to me.

If I had the money I would buy one,'cept I have to go without 'lectricity so's I can pay my property taxes. Thank God for the almighty wood stove and scrounging lumber debris at the Meredith transfer station..... I call it recycling trash lumber w/ smaller monthly electric bills! A side-line pro-environment effect of high property taxes....what an advantage!

[jrc]

Originally Posted by codeman671

....

I am leaning towards the gas setup, again the usage is my concern. If I bite the bullet I may have a 500 gallon submarine installed ....

Will someone deliver bulk propane to your island? I know people deliver 100 lb tanks, but 500 gallons will need a truck with a hose.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by jrc

Will someone deliver bulk propane to your island? I know people deliver 100 lb tanks, but 500 gallons will need a truck with a hose.

George Randall can barge a truck out, obviously we would be filling a huge tank and only need to do it every few years.