Laconia Daily Sun Letter

VitaBene · 09-17-2009, 12:11 PM

I picked up the Laconia Daily Sun today and found this letter.

Almost none of us want to see return to chaos on the Big Lake
To the editor,
Once we got past the bad weather of
June, it was a wonderful summer for
boating and other activities on Lake
Winnipesaukee. Surely the safest and
most enjoyable in many years. Nobody
can sincerely argue otherwise.
While one could usually count as
many boats on the lake, if not more,
it felt much less crowded and safer
because civility fi nally reigned. It’s
amazing how big a lake can seem when
fi lled with boats operating at reasonable
speeds. Sailing vessels once again
became a common sight. Families in
smaller craft going for evening ice
creams in their runabouts were back.
Kids were being taken water skiing
again. Campers were canoeing again in
numbers we have not seen for years.
Lake Winnipesaukee was once
again a place that all could share and
enjoy. 45 miles per hour in the daytime
and 25 miles per hour in the nighttime
proved plenty fast enough for all
safe and reasonable boating. AND WE
FINALLY HAD A SUMMER WITHOUT
A HIGH-SPEED TRAGEDY.
No boaters were run over this year,
no boats crashed up onto islands, no
speeding boats lost control and fl ipped
over. But then, isn’t that what most of
us expected?
The Marine Patrol deserves a heartfelt
thank you for their efforts to make
the lake a more enjoyable place for all
once again. They heard the concerns
of the boating masses and responded
professionally and effectively. And
their efforts really paid off.
Our biggest thanks should go to those
who formed WinnFABS and made this
happen. Using their own funds, this
group of local citizens fought on our
behalf for several years to fi nally get
this law in place against an organized
political machine funded by those who
profi ted from crowding our lake with
over-sized over-fast boats, and who
wrongly predicted that our economy
would be destroyed by a law that was
not needed because “nobody goes that
fast anyway” and would just be ignored
(Note the contradiction in this statement
is not mine).
Unfortunately, this most-effective
law is only temporary and will soon
expire, and we face the possibility of
returning to the “get out of my way”
boating environment that brought us
here unless we can convince our Legislature
to make it permanent during
the upcoming session. WinnFABS
must and will again lead our efforts
to make this happen. After writing
this letter, I will make a donation to
them to do my small part. But this
time around promises to be the most
expensive, and it is critical that they
get as much support as possible. Aside
from visiting www.gencourt.state.
nh.us/house/members/wml.aspx to
fi nd your legislators’ e-mail addresses
and writing to them to let them know
of your support for a permanent 45
MPH daytime and 25 MPH nighttime
speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee,
I urge all to go to www.winnfabs.
com and make a small contribution
to WinnFABS’ upcoming campaign.
Almost none of us want to see a return
to the chaos that things had been.
Lake Winnipesaukee is our lake. It is
the gem of NH and the engine of our
economy. Let’s keep it the way it was
this summer.
XXXXXXXXX
-end-
(I redacted the name and town of origin of the writer, with that exception I have copied and pasted in its entirety)

Have we had a high speed tragedy every year??

Airwaves · 09-17-2009, 12:18 PM

Why let FACTS get in the way of a good letter to the editor?

VtSteve · 09-17-2009, 12:59 PM

The biggest problem I have with people that deal like that are statements like this.

Quote:

45 miles per hour in the daytime
and 25 miles per hour in the nighttime
proved plenty fast enough for all
safe and reasonable boating. AND WE
FINALLY HAD A SUMMER WITHOUT
A HIGH-SPEED TRAGEDY.
No boaters were run over this year,
no boats crashed up onto islands, no
speeding boats lost control and fl ipped
over. But then, isn’t that what most of
us expected?

When was the last time Winnipesaukee had a HIGH-SPEED TRAGEDY?
I also note that while he applauds the MP, they don't support his view of the lake.

Regardless of anyone's personal view on the SL, or the lake in general, why do people have to lie? Is this what the WINFABs group is all about? I think the biggest thing I have against people and groups like that, is they lack character. For me, that's the worst thing I can say about someone, and it amounts to ZERO respect.

I listen to viewpoints, try not to interpret things to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion, and can admit being wrong if I just am wrong. But I don't suffer lies well. If your arguments and positions can't stand on their own merits, possibly you should change them.

If the facts are presented in that paper, he'd look like the fool he is.

Kracken · 09-17-2009, 02:43 PM

This is truly the Theatre Of The Absurd

Putting aside the numerous bold face lies in this article, I can only hope this was an editorial and not being passed off as actual news because it has no basis in fact.

Speed limits are not the reason the lake is quieter this year.

It has been stated correctly many times in this forum and in the real news that the traffic is down due to the weather and the economy.

1. Weather
There were only a handful of weekends all summer that were rain/wind/thunderstorm free. While this may not stop lakefront property owners from boating it would surely stop day boaters. Downing’s Landing should have had a great year with the closing of the ramps at Ames Farm. I spoke with the former train conductor at Dawning’s and he confirmed it was a horrible year. There were only a couple of days this summer they were full.

2. Economy
I have heard the argument over and over that gas is 3 bucks on the lake and last year it was almost 5 bucks so it’s really not the economy.

BULL HOCKEY

This year more people are unemployed but that is not the big factor. Most Americans are fearful of becoming unemployed and in this economy the prospect of finding a new job is scary at best. A two dollar decrease in gas price is meaningless compared to people not knowing if or when their next paycheck will come.

Giving credit to a silly law for making the lake quieter and safer is moronic and irresponsible. I realize the people who supported the limits are happy with their victory and do not want to give up something they fought so hard for. But do not fabricate results to justify your position. If the speed limit supporters wanted to extend the law because any data this year is tainted due to the decreased traffic I would completely understand it and even support it. But to claim its working??? The facts do not substantiate this.

I hope somebody here will send a letter to the editor to counter the original article.

Ryan · 09-17-2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

While one could usually count as
many boats on the lake, if not more,
it felt much less crowded

How can his first arguement completely contradict itself? The entire opinion piece lacks fact and logic.

I think I just threw up in my mouth.

malibu · 09-17-2009, 05:12 PM

There used be a group that fought the good fight against these lies (winnilakers), we need to educate the general public with the true facts like they use to. If we allow these lies to continue people will start believing they are true. Were any of you part of winnilakers; I was and participated as much as I had time for. If I recall they actually had a spokes person that would concentrate their efforts.

Maybe a new site is in order to concentrate everyone’s thoughts and efforts, one that locks out the uninvited.

Malibu

Pineedles · 09-17-2009, 07:09 PM

If YOU "Speed Limit Opponents" have any hope of defeating or even negotiating a compromise, then YOU better learn from this letter. It will kill YOUR chances of anything if not rebutted in this and every newspaper in the State of New Hampshire. If YOU REALLY CARE about this issue, then in the next 2-3 days, YOU should be writing a letter exposing this collection of lies to every publication in NH that accepts letters to the editor submissions. Stop arguing with TB and others, and write the damn letters! i really don't care that much, i just like to see the playing field leveled, and YOU need to do some leveling.

Good luck!

WeirsBeachBoater · 09-17-2009, 08:21 PM

I have tried to stay out of the SL debate for some time now. But I can't sit here tonight and not write this. I spent 4 yrs working against the speed limit. Back when it was grass roots, even before winnfabs was formed etc. I was a member of NHRBA, and quite frankly, the biggest reason the speed limit got through was because too many people sat at their keyboards or at home saying " it will never happen". Guess what.... it did, and it will not go away as long as the majority of the opposition doesn't speak. We were out voiced in Concord, but more importantly we were beat in the MEDIA. They (winnfabs) won, and you know why, they got the non boating public to believe that Winnipesaukee had become more dangerous than the wild west. What really is sickening, is that Winnfabs is really only about a handful of people. If you attended the hearings and the lobbying in Concord it was the same 6-8 people there everytime! They did do a good job of raising money, and they are well funded. But come on, we can sit here for days and kick this around winni.com. But what really needs to happen is a big time push in the Media to prove they are not only Wrong, but lying to the non boating public to instill fear and sway them into calling the reps and senators to keep this law on the books. I will leave you with this, GET INVOLVED, that is the only way it will get defeated. I know that I am done, I gave it all, and have other responsibilities now that keep me from going on with this cause. I hope someone steps up and leads the charge for this next phase. -WBB

jeffk · 09-17-2009, 09:05 PM

I have said this before but since it is starting up again: This is not a logical/rational discussion. It is an emotional one. The SL supporters use fear and anger to push their point and gutless politicians respond very well to these tactics. They feel justified bending or making up facts to push their argument. We have gone through all this discussion before. The reasons were NEVER there to support a SL. However the emotion drove it through. The lake has always had a good safety record compared to other bodies of water. Speed has not been a significant contributor to accidents and especially fatal accidents because there haven't been that many and most of them have been swimming or small boat drownings. Other lakes that establish speed limits don't really enforce them. None of it matters as long as the pols respond to the emotions.

pm203 · 09-17-2009, 09:25 PM

What a crock of you know what. The sailboats returned, its safe to go for an ice cream and so on. Looks like the propoganda machine has been fired up once again.

VtSteve · 09-17-2009, 09:43 PM

Of course, you are spot on WBB. Well-crafted, and well-distributed lies, are effective. These scare tactics and misstatements sound like politics as usual don't they? Your words ring very true.

I just hope everyone remembers this. Always fight lies with fact. If the facts are not available, wait for them, don't make them up. Something Mr. Weeks mama didn't succeed in teaching him. But that's ok, as WBB stated, people can figure it out on their own once presented with it.

I think it's high time people like that were forced to answer some questions, publicly. As WBB and others say, call them on it, publicly.

brk-lnt · 09-18-2009, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pm203

The sailboats returned

Variants of this statement have been made by several posters. I personally find it a little hard to swallow.

Overall this has been a down-year economy wise. Lots of property foreclosures around the lake, people selling off their toys (boats, etc.), and lots of people leaving their lake getaways mothballed.

On top of that you have the theory that the lake has been so dangerous for so many years that the majority of the sailboaters didn't feel safe anymore. Add to that the various speed limit oppositions.

But your post wants us to believe that the minute the speed limit went into effect all of the "violaters" either suddenly disappeared from the lake and/or suddenly complied with the law and became civil rational boaters AND all of these sailboats that had sat unused for years came out of the woodwork to re-take the water?

The people seeing drastic changes this year on the lake are doing so through rose-colored glasses. Things like this speed limit don't just switch on overnight, or over a single season. Had there been a few more sailboats sighted and comments along the lines of "it feels a little better on Sunday's" or "I saw the MP pulling over ANOTHER speeder today", I might be inclined to believe that the speed limit law could have had some effect or time.

Statements that want the public and lawmakers to believe that THIS law was finally the one that brought justice to the water overnight, that THIS law is one people are suddenly adhering to, are a little too much like propaganda for me to believe.

Turtle Boy · 09-18-2009, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Why let FACTS get in the way of a good letter to the editor?

Or of accusing someone of illegal fishing.

BroadHopper · 09-18-2009, 08:17 AM

Is about to change drastically. The heartlless Democrats have put NH in deep dept and wants to sell our state parks to pay for it. The NH voters have had it and will prove it on the next election. That being said the Democrats are pushing 'feel good agendas' such as this bill to assure the public they are not so bad.

As a true NH native, I don't like the renroachment of out of staters as they are now telling us what to do. They say it is progress and I, my father and my grandfather say 'Progress? Hell!'.

Most of the proponents of the SL are not NH natives. A number of them are not even NH voters! What do they want from us? Leave us alone! If they don't like it here, GO HOME!

It's a free country. LIVE LIKE IT!

'Live Free or Die'

NoRegrets · 09-18-2009, 08:44 AM

I do not like wasting time on stupid lies that are found in editorial pages but this one struck a nerve and caused me to realize what is going on. To attack the lies with facts did not work combating generalities like safety of fear. There was a lack of leadership tactics surrounding the Speed Limit / Lake issue that led to where we find ourselves today.

Here is my observation and opinion on what went wrong in this long political “battle”. It was not lost because we were outspoken or sat at home. It was lost because we did not effectively beat or address the "safety and fear" issue. There was a much more devious game going on and the issue was lost due to an exploitation of a leadership tactic.

Leadership on social issues (slightly different than business since they are not measured by gains or losses) has interesting characteristics and if you study effective leaders you can see how they win or loose. A true leader (weather good or bad – Reagan or Hitler) never debates the facts openly. They champion a cause and let the lower levels debate or mute the merits. This is where the media has all power to either report unbiased or win (steal) battles. The leader stays above the fray while the opponents are painted to look like lunatics with details that can be minimized. The masses that don’t seem to care are really the voters that when forced to make a choice tend to side with the leader that has stayed out of the battle but still stays true to the vision (safety and fear). If the leader of one side gets into the fight and cries foul, points out lies, brings details to the debate the voters are turned off. If you apply this process to historical political campaigns you will see how effectively it works until a revolution erupts.

If you accept this viewpoint then here is how I beleive it applies to the Speed limit issue:
There were 2 sides of the issue leading up to the creation of the law. One side used FEAR and SAFETY while the second group was all about FREEDOM and RIGHTS. To the unaffected masses (voters and lawmakers) we already have speed limits everywhere so that did not seem too resonate with the Freedom and Rights argument. The obvious winner was the SL.

Everyone is right on to suggest the Laconia article is totally WRONG but trying to fight it like last time will probably still end up with more restrictions instead of real solutions. The educated people that have suggested we all need to be active in setting the facts straight are great Americans and what makes this country great but we will still need to get the leadership position in place for round 2 of the debate. The SL group is in the driver’s seat leaving the opponents of the SL on the defensive. It is also hard to gain ground when you are on the defense but I know there are many brilliant minds that do not give up and I see obvious leaders and winners in the forum member’s writings. I have not thought about a strategy but using position like: “a resource grab by Greedy Rich Land owners or corrupt big liberal government may be a start.

Sorry for the long reply but I think we are on a slippery slope and we need to work more effectively the next time. Have a safe boating weekend all!

Kracken · 09-18-2009, 08:50 AM

NoRegrets,

That was perfectly stated, a thanks at the end of your post did not seem sufficient.

Thank you.

Bear Islander · 09-18-2009, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VtSteve

.... When was the last time Winnipesaukee had a HIGH-SPEED TRAGEDY?.....

It was LAST YEAR!

You may have a different definition of "high-speed", but any speed that is a lot more than conditions allow meets mine.

This Letter to the Editor is a perfect example of the arguments the opposition must overcome. And quite frankly, that is all but impossible.

Ryan · 09-18-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

This Letter to the Editor is a perfect example of the arguments the opposition must overcome. And quite frankly, that is all but impossible.

I'm not going to debate the high speed thing, but I will point out that the current bill, as passed, is set to expire at the end of 2010. At this point, there is nothing that opponents to the SL must overcome. This is the proponents fight.

VtSteve · 09-18-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

It was LAST YEAR!

You may have a different definition of "high-speed", but any speed that is a lot more than conditions allow meets mine.

This Letter to the Editor is a perfect example of the arguments the opposition must overcome. And quite frankly, that is all but impossible.

If the obvious factors of last year's accident prove true, I definitely agree with you BI, TOO FAST FOR CONDITIONS. I DO NOT disagree with you on that, but I do not sacrifice my character and values to paint it to support anyone's agenda either. I don't think anyone on this board has ever not supported that argument. Except for maybe 2BD, who rambled on and argued that the conditions were fine that night.

But to call that a HS accident, and then state that the lies published in that letter are hard to overcome, well I think perhaps you need to go back and take a hard look at everything.

So now you're delighted that the opposition has to overcome a series of lies and misstatements? I quite honestly thought you were better than that BI. I really did.

Woodsy · 09-18-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

It was LAST YEAR!

You may have a different definition of "high-speed", but any speed that is a lot more than conditions allow meets mine.

This Letter to the Editor is a perfect example of the arguments the opposition must overcome. And quite frankly, that is all but impossible.

Bear Islander....

If your definition of hi-speed is based on prevailing conditions, then you would have to agree that there are times and places on the Lake where the prevailing conditions would allow for Hi-Performance boats to run free of restriction....

For example the Broads on a day like today.... Bluebird weather, unlimited visibility and nary a boat out there!

There is very little doubt (IMHO) that the boat was travelling too fast for the prevailing conditions that fateful night. This accident appears (to me) to meet the burden of proof for Coast Guard Rule 6 (that NH NEEDS to adopt) and NH Negligent Operation/Failure to Keep a Proper Lookout. The effect that HB-847 would have, should have, could have had on that fateful night is still very unclear.

The NHMP has yet to make the accident report public, so we dont know the estimated speed of the boat at impact. We do not know her BAC. Its entirely possible she was traveling at 25MPH or less when the boat struck the island. If thats the case then HB-847 would have had no effect on the tragic outcome...

But she could quite possibly be in violation of other PRE-EXISTING LAWS!

Woodsy

Bear Islander · 09-18-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

I'm not going to debate the high speed thing, but I will point out that the current bill, as passed, is set to expire at the end of 2010. At this point, there is nothing that opponents to the SL must overcome. This is the proponents fight.

Sorry, you are quite wrong.

The bill to make this permanent has already been written. If the opponents do not put up a fight then the bill to make speed limits permanent will quietly walk through the legislature. And in my opinion the only fight that has any chance at all is a compromise.

hazelnut · 09-18-2009, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Bear Islander....

If your definition of hi-speed is based on prevailing conditions, then you would have to agree that there are times and places on the Lake where the prevailing conditions would allow for Hi-Performance boats to run free of restriction....

For example the Broads on a day like today.... Bluebird weather, unlimited visibility and nary a boat out there!

There is very little doubt (IMHO) that the boat was travelling too fast for the prevailing conditions that fateful night. This accident appears (to me) to meet the burden of proof for Coast Guard Rule 6 (that NH NEEDS to adopt) and NH Negligent Operation/Failure to Keep a Proper Lookout. The effect that HB-847 would have, should have, could have had on that fateful night is still very unclear.

The NHMP has yet to make the accident report public, so we dont know the estimated speed of the boat at impact. We do not know her BAC. Its entirely possible she was traveling at 25MPH or less when the boat struck the island. If thats the case then HB-847 would have had no effect on the tragic outcome...

But she could quite possibly be in violation of other PRE-EXISTING LAWS!

Woodsy

Thanks Woodsy.

Personally I believe that Rule 6 would actually give MP more power and do much more to curb the issues we all want squelched. It's an example of a great compromise as those who have claimed that they were scared when a boat "passed by 150' away going 70MPH." The Marine Patrol COULD actually pull someone over for that and at the very least give them a warning and perhaps even a ticket. Rule 6 is actually way more subjective to the officer. An officer may suggest to the boater that his or her actions were not reasonable and prudent due to high boat traffic. At any rate it would most likely send a clear message to the Performance Boaters that they would quickly understand. If you want to go fast you'd better have the room and it may push those individuals to the broads. Just what we've all been pushing for all along.

Just my .02

OCDACTIVE · 09-18-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Sorry, you are quite wrong.

The bill to make this permanent has already been written. If the opponents do not put up a fight then the bill to make speed limits permanent will quietly walk through the legislature. And in my opinion the only fight that has any chance at all is a compromise.

Surprisingly all this talk and nothing has been filed.

Pineedles · 09-18-2009, 07:20 PM

Are you sure?

EricP · 09-18-2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

It was LAST YEAR!

So it's been proven that speed was the cause? Did I miss the court case?
Give me a break, that is your opinion, not fact. Weak arguement at best.

EricP · 09-18-2009, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Surprisingly all this talk and nothing has been filed.

I am guessing his Island neighbor told him it is written, probably while sitting 'round the campfire. Of course everything a politician says is fact, right?

She has more important things to worry about, like getting re-elected and if I have anything to do about it she won't.

Rinkerfam · 09-18-2009, 10:13 PM

Woodsy, when you mention "pre-existing laws" you summed up my argument since day one. I must have been on a different Winnipesaukee than all of the SL supporters this summer. When the weather was nice it was a mad-house out there. (By mad-house I don't mean the number of boats out there or the speeds that they were traveling). I'm sure I wasn't the only boat that had other vessels pass at distances far less than 150'. I'm sure that I wasn't the only boat that had to surrender to a "give-way vessel" numerous times. I'm also sure that I wasn't the only one to be horrified at all the boats traveling through the Governor's/Eagle NWZ just below planing speed creating monster wakes while the MP looked on without care. Maybe the SL supporters are among those who don't know what 150' means. Maybe the SL supporters are among those who don't know who is the "stand-on or give-way vessel" in a given situation. Otherwise it would stand to reason that they would be complaining about those safety concerns as well. I guess as far as the SL supporters are concerned having a boat pass by them at 50' is ok as long as it isn't going more than 45mph. Heck, we could really streamline things by doing away with all of the existing boating laws other than HB 847 since it is apparently the only law we need to be safe. What a fool I am for not realizing this sooner.

KTO · 09-19-2009, 12:57 AM

It's a good thing that letters to the editor are only opinion. Unfortunate that this lacked any fact, though.

Dave R · 09-19-2009, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricP

So it's been proven that speed was the cause? Did I miss the court case?
Give me a break, that is your opinion, not fact. Weak arguement at best.

Do you honestly think there's any possibility she was going headway speed or less? Considering she hit it, she was obviously within 150' of the island. I think we can all agree she was going well over the existing speed limit at the time.

fatlazyless · 09-19-2009, 06:53 AM

This Lake Winnipesaukee forum is really something........one guy writes a well written letter to the editor........normally a letter disappears after one day or so as the old paper gets thrown out. Here on
the forum, it gets analyzed, bisected, disected, refuted and discussed for days. It has staying power as it hangs around and hangs around..

Interesting medium.....a high speed internet forum......lol

......and don't forget.....going 45mph in a boat is hardly a slow speed......it is a very fast speed......how fast do you need to go?

Never could understand all 'the need for speed' anyway.......a motorboat is a machine....amd for most all boats just going 45mph is very very fast.

OCDACTIVE · 09-19-2009, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

and don't forget.....going 45mph in a boat is hardly a slow speed......it is a very fast speed......how fast do you need to go?

I cut and pasted from another thread because I didn't want to write it out all over again... but I still stand by this:

You mention that 45 is fast enough... What I find again is that many opinions are based on the individual owners determination of "fast" based on their own boat. For example if you have a 21 foot 1982 Century with a 260, when the boat is a WOT (wide open throttle) it gets up to approx. 46mph. The boat is bouncing around and is very loud in comparrison to its normal cruising speed of 30ish. With my boat cruising at 3600 rpms I will be at 50 mph. At that speed I am perfectly comfortable and well in control. Passengers can talk and have sodas while enjoying the lake. So that being said it is a very reasonable speed for me. Where an individual with a boat that is 17 feet long crusing comfortably at 22 mph that gets passed by me may not realize it feels the same.

I have discussed limits for years now with individuals. In many situations those in favor of limits (even once with a MP officer) I offer to take them for a ride. In doing so we go across "cruising" and they are astounded the control and how slow you feel you are going in a performance boat at 45 or 55 mph.

It becomes upsetting to me and friends of mine, that those passing the laws and those in favor of limits have never been on or experienced a performance boat. Now you may have, but I am just making a generalization.

That being said, I invite you at anytime (once my boat is fixed) to take a ride if you have not experienced a performance boat ride. You may feel differently.

fatlazyless · 09-19-2009, 08:10 AM

,,,here's one way to solve the need for speed...and no offense intended...well. not too much offense anyway......I think you need a smaller boat.....smaller boats get you closer to the water and more in sync with the wind & waves....instead of just powering through the water a smaller boat is a totally different animal.

It gets better..... for the very reasonable price of $8500. let me sell you my 18' aluminum cabin cruisr, a 1974 Starcraft Starchief with a somewhat late model Japanese 4-stroke 70hp outboard......the ultimate Lake Winnipesaukee cruiser....and capable of handling any waves, anywhere on the Big Lake. Much better than a 28' Baja 1200hp .....and just $8500 w/ a trailer! Cruise along all day on just six gallons....with a planing speed of maybe 18mph?

OCDACTIVE · 09-19-2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

,,,here's one way to solve the need for speed...and no offense intended...well. not too much offense anyway......I think you need a smaller boat.....smaller boats get you closer to the water and more in sync with the wind & waves....instead of just powering through the water a smaller boat is a totally different animal.

It gets better..... for the very reasonable price of $8500. let me sell you my 18' aluminum cabin cruisr, a 1974 Starcraft Starchief with a somewhat late model Japanese 4-stroke 70hp outboard......the ultimate Lake Winnipesaukee cruiser....and capable of handling any waves, anywhere on the Big Lake. Much better than a 28' Baja 1200hp .....and just $8500 w/ a trailer! Cruise along all day on just six gallons....with a planing speed of maybe 18mph?

LOL.... thank you for the offer but I have waited my whole life for a boat like this, and been saving for 4 years to get her... I understand your premise of getting a boat that suits the lake. I have been in huge GFB's on the lake topping off over 100mph and while that is perfectly safe to do the lake seems to get very small for boats like that. That is why most are used not only on the lake but elsewhere in the country. My 28 still feels good on the lake and is fun in the broads on a very windy day. However, I didn't buy the boat strictly for the lake. I use it up and down the east coast but Lake Winni is my home. I grew up there and my family has been on the lake for 2 generations. I as well as everyone on this forum obviously has a great attachment to the lake or we wouldn't care so much either way. So in my case, selling my boat wouldn't be an option ever!... I got my dream and plan on having her the next 20 years.

But I will keep your boats in mind if I hear of someone looking.

PS. the ride offer next season still stands!

Bear Islander · 09-19-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Surprisingly all this talk and nothing has been filed.

In politics . . . . timing is everything!

KTO · 09-19-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

one guy writes a well written letter to the editor........

Well written? Wouldn't that include facts? In college, I'm required to submit a works cited (reference) page when I use facts in any of my papers. I'd like to see the author of this letter works cited page, unless of course this is common knowledge...

Rattlesnake Guy · 09-19-2009, 04:03 PM

If it's only about politics. And we all know that politics are all about power, money and getting reelected. How do we identify and fund the replacements who might have a more "traditional" and measured approach on the subject of over reaching need for regulation.

More logic abuse.

If speed limit = fewer boats this year.

And
Worse world wide economy this year,

then is
the speed limit the cause of the worse economy?

or
could the worse economy impact number of boats?

VtSteve · 09-19-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

In politics . . . . timing is everything!

It most certainly is not. There's quite a bit of BS needed to really get silly things passed.

So they wait until the last moment, preferably when the big trial begins, and they flood the media with more silly stories and outright lies. You truly should be proud of yourself, and your cause BI. Truly.

pm203 · 09-19-2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

. . . . timing is everything!

Yes it is!

ApS · 09-20-2009, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

"...going 45mph in a boat is hardly a slow speed......it is a very fast speed......how fast do you need to go...and for most all boats just going 45mph is very very fast..."

Among the NH Marine Patrol boats best equipped for emergencies, can any exceed 50-MPH?

In an emergency, at what speed would NHMP need to go and not pose an additional peril to public safety?

Dave R · 09-20-2009, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

In an emergency, at what speed would NHMP need to go and not pose an additional peril to public safety?

That would depend on the situation. Wide open areas, on a day with excellent visibility, and and MP officer at the helm with skills and experience would safely allow much higher speeds than narrow congested areas traversed at night, in the fog, by a rookie.

Airwaves · 09-20-2009, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Quote:

If it's only about politics. And we all know that politics are all about power, money and getting reelected.

Something the legislatative supporters of the Speed Limit law should keep in mind this time around...the complete abandonment of WinnFabs and their supporters of Sen Kenney when it came time for them to step up when he ran against Gov Lynch.

I don't know if the landslide victory by Lynch set a record or not, but the support for Kenney by WinnFabs and their kind evaporated when he needed it!

Sounds like WinnFabs and the like are fair weather friends that can't be counted on to me!

OCDACTIVE · 09-20-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Among the NH Marine Patrol boats best equipped for emergencies, can any exceed 50-MPH?

In an emergency, at what speed would NHMP need to go and not pose an additional peril to public safety?

They have boats and PWC that can easily exceed 50 mph.....

In the worst emergencies they actually do not call a boat... they get the coast guard helo's out of portsmouth.. those exceed 50 mph no problem.

Resident 2B · 09-20-2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Originally posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Something the legislative supporters of the Speed Limit law should keep in mind this time around...the complete abandonment of WinnFabs and their supporters of Sen Kenney when it came time for them to step up when he ran against Gov Lynch.

I don't know if the landslide victory by Lynch set a record or not, but the support for Kenney by WinnFabs and their kind evaporated when he needed it!

Sounds like WinnFabs and the like are fair weather friends that can't be counted on to me!

The reality is, there really are not many WinnFabs people. The few core members are very well organized and have been able to raise funds based upon their mis-truths and misrepresentations. They are also able to get support for their side from voters that have no idea of what is happening other than the horror stories from WinnFabs spin doctors.

A good portion of the WinnFabs supporters cannot vote in New Hampshire. Other than the smoke and mirrors publicity that has fooled many good people, there is no big organization. WinnFabs is a House-of-Cards.

They can write a bunch of crap and get it into the local papers and that is very effective. However, those who are actually on the lake know the truth.

We have to get our word out and get more organized. Other than on these threads, we are the silent, but truthful, majority!

R2B

KTO · 09-20-2009, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

We have to get our word out and get more organized. Other than on these threads, we are the silent, but truthful, majority!

R2B

I just wrote a letter to the editor. Now I just need to send it.

VtSteve · 09-20-2009, 09:30 PM

That hardly anyone can answer these questions

Feel free to chime in Mr. Weeks

1. How many high-speed accidents/fatalities have there been on Lake Winnipesaukee since 1980?

2. How many fatalities have there been on Lake Winnipesaukee involving kayaks/canoes/small-craft fishing boats?

This year alone, the amount of fatalities during early fishing season is astronomical. Perhaps seatbelts in these boats is the answer.

chipj29 · 09-21-2009, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VtSteve

That hardly anyone can answer these questions

Feel free to chime in Mr. Weeks

1. How many high-speed accidents/fatalities have there been on Lake Winnipesaukee since 1980?

2. How many fatalities have there been on Lake Winnipesaukee involving kayaks/canoes/small-craft fishing boats?

This year alone, the amount of fatalities during early fishing season is astronomical. Perhaps seatbelts in these boats is the answer.

In this forum, I have learned to be careful when asking question #1. You have to specifically ask for accidents directly caused by excessive speeds. Otherwise, they will say that the Littlefield accident was caused by excessive speed, when we all know what the real cause was.

fatlazyless · 09-21-2009, 07:15 AM

The same letter was in yesterday's Sunday Concord Monitor as a "My Turn" guest opinion.

Believe the legislative session runs from January to June, unless a special session gets called for in Sept-Oct-Nov-Dec or something.

Doesn't New Hampshire already have a designated go-fast lake.......Lake Winnisquam....which comes fully equipped with the Winnisquam Trading Post.....which has its own dock and sells all the good stuff....beer, ciggies, lottery tickets....and fishing bait.....and a brand new double ramp, freebie state boat launch in Laconia. Why go anywhere else? Go Winnisquam.........understand it has no big bad rocks to mangle the props.....how good is that?

And, at 4238 acres it has planty room to run at wide open throttle.

fatlazyless · 09-22-2009, 06:15 PM

Today's Laconia Daily Sun has another well written letter in support of the speed limit titled "The Go-Fast-Be-Loud Brotherhood is plotting a comeback" Different author than the above letter and runs on a similar........chug-chug-chug........ train of thought.

...and the public relations plot twists and turns......

What say you all fast boaters just seek out some local state reps' political support for a high speed Winni venue which could be either a marked off area or a specific time to include the entire lake such as every Friday or something. Like. why not just have Alton Bay legislatively declared to be the designated GO-FAST ZONE. Most all the state reps in Alton are good Republicans who are against any type of regulations, and have accepted contributions from the NH boat marina lobbyist so's just say "let's go to Alton Bay.....and push that throttle ahead to wide open......live free or die......hey..............vroooom vroom Alton Bay!"

OCDACTIVE · 09-22-2009, 06:32 PM

And it was written by no other then Ed Chase of Meredith.

It is actually comical. He is warning the Sun from listening to others that oppose the law.

There is so much made up rehtoric I don't even know where to begin....... check it out for yourselves...

Pineedles · 09-22-2009, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

And it was written by no other then Ed Chase of Meredith.

It is actually comical. He is warning the Sun from listening to others that oppose the law.

There is so much made up rehtoric I don't even know where to begin....... check it out for yourselves...

I haven't looked at today's Laconia Daily Sun yet but I assume there was no letter opposing the Speed Limit?

If anyone sent a letter and it was rejected (not published), then post it here and all supporters should ask why The Laconia Daily Sun is taking sides, by barraging the LDS with letters! If there was no letter submitted, then all of you who are against the SL are going to get, Speed Limits on Winnipesaukee. S.L.O.W., the new law! Forever!

Rattlesnake Guy · 09-22-2009, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Doesn't New Hampshire already have a designated go-fast lake.......

We used to......

NoRegrets · 09-22-2009, 08:39 PM

FLL – Before you start to take bows and accolades for the pro-speed limit perspective and the lack of the capability of the masses of voters to be convinced of your position I would like you to reflect on some of the current issues that may prove you to bit premature in your celebration.

I think the tolerance of the country is changing and more people are paying attention to what is making our country become sloppy and unable to compete on the international field. Many of your posts have been about the excesses of people in the McMansions (everyone should live on a ¼ acre with 5 rooms), big cruisers (buy my 28 ft tub), freebees for all, and how we should all aspire to shop at Walmart, business closures and empty property, and so on. The legal sleaziness that is prevalent in our country is destroying what made us America! This new political experiment by the liberal political majority is quickly being exposed for what it is! A power hungry group of politicians that have no clue on how to run anything. They are in trouble and I hope they have a true awakening that not only shocks them but the world. The next election will be telling!

There are many that hold true to freedoms and constitutional rights that are at the core of our country that should be motivated to action and expose the intent of the few as something akin to the deceptive ploys of ACORN. I salute the forum members from both sides and believe the truth will win. The silent majority that were magically convinced that we needed a speed limit will become more cognizant of the issue next time. This will become apparent as marches and controlled marches on our politician’s offices and Washington continue to demand we get back to the fundamentals and stop the financial and moral bankrupting of our nation. This will hopefully be the top perspective when this speed issue is back on the docket and then we will get back to bonehead issues and not this arbitrary attack on the GF type boats. Have a good night.

VitaBene · 09-23-2009, 04:11 AM

Elchase, the only bombarding seems to be from the SL proponents. Please remember that just because someone hails from a different part of the country does not mean they do not have propoerty or another vested interest in this area.

The Go-Fast-Be-Loud Brotherhood is plotting a comeback
To the editor,
The letter from Mr. Week was great .
. . spot on. I’ve been seeing and saying
the same all summer. Almost all my
friends and neighbors agree. Anyone
who has been on the lake this summer
and does not have an agenda and is
not blind simply has to agree. But just
a warning to the Sun and its readers,
the offshore boating internet forums
are abuzz about the letter and are planning
to bombard The Sun with letters
claiming the opposite is true. They need
to paint the picture that the speed limit
had no effect, or that it somehow had a
negative one — that it somehow made
things crazier, faster and less safe. (You
can’t make this stuff up). Some will
say the law is overbearing and makes
them go too slow for the designs or safe
operation of their boats. Others will be
claiming the opposite and saying that
it did nothing and was just a waste of
law enforcement efforts. Others will say
the Marine Patrol did not even bother
trying to enforce it and that it is just
a waste or space on our statues that
should removed to keep them pure of
unnecessary laws.
All these arguments directly contradicting
each other might be amusing,
but the point is that The Sun must be
careful to watch where these letters
are coming from. Most of these people
are from elsewhere, members of the
national Go-Fast-Be-Loud brotherhood
that bands together to help
each other fight similar laws around
the country. Most may have never
even been on Winnipesaukee. Please
screen them carefully. Please keep
this debate limited to real people from
the region. While there is nothing
wrong with hearing opposing views
from our neighbors, you don’t want to
see your paper become another forum
confiscated by the national Go-Fast-
Be-Loud crowd.
At the end of the day, what we have
is a law that was requested by the
citizens of NH (who own Winnipesaukee)
and they are saying “Thank
you . . . It works great . . . It did just
what we wanted and expected. . . We
love it . . . Please keep it.” And on the
other hand, you have the group of
loud and aggressive cowboys whose
very behavior the law was aimed to
modify saying, “It is not working . . . It
is not slowing us down . . . It has not
changed our behavior one bit . . . but
please end it anyway.”
Who is one to believe? Methinks
they doth protest too much. The more
they object to the law, the more they
accidentally admit that it is working
and giving us just what we needed.
And what a great summer we had.

VtSteve · 09-23-2009, 05:32 AM

Mr. Weeks and Mr. Chase say that the speed limit has transformed Winnipesaukee from a chaotic and accident-plagued lake to one of peace and harmony. All of their friends and neighbors say this as well.

How many believe this to be true? Why?

Lakegeezer · 09-23-2009, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

The legal sleaziness that is prevalent in our country is destroying what made us America! This new political experiment by the liberal political majority is quickly being exposed for what it is! A power hungry group of politicians that have no clue on how to run anything. They are in trouble and I hope they have a true awakening that not only shocks them but the world. The next election will be telling!

The words of NoRegrets are depressing. I heard the same said about the eight years of the last administration. Katrina, fooled into wars, screwed up the economy, made our allies mad, trashed the constitution etc. Talking about power hungry politicians that have no clue how to run anything is not new. We know the grass is not greener where we came from - now what? The recent discussions about safety and speeds on this forum are proof that new ideas can come from the citizens. What other problems can be rationally discussed? Daming those in power seems so much less effective than proposing solutions that can become the next campaign issues.

fatlazyless · 09-23-2009, 08:53 AM

Should the U.S. president and family decide to vacation next August by renting out a Winnipesaukee waterfront house for two weeks, as did France Prez Sarkozy, do you think they are more likely to go kayaking or power-boating and why? ...............

sa meredith · 09-23-2009, 08:55 AM

This post is in no way intended to be sarcastic, or funny.
Just a thought...
It's weird how some issues bother certain people to the Nth degree, and others could care less.
And then, on different subjects, the same people flip flop. The indifferent poeple become the passionate, and the passionate become the indifferent.

As I sit here reading this thread, I wonder why I've never thrown my hat in the ring in this debate. It indeed has been good fun to read over the past 1.5 years or so, but I guess I never truly cared one way or the other.
Speed limit/ No speed limit...either way, fine by me. (of course our boat can't reach much more than 50/52, so that's probably it).

But let someone say something in the restaurant thread that I disagree with, and I'll be out front leading the charge. And loving the confrontation (in good fun, of course).

Just human nature I guess. One man's garbage is another man's treasure...and all that good stuff.
OK, I'm done.

NoRegrets · 09-23-2009, 09:00 AM

Thanks for the reply Lakegeezer. I am not trying to be depressing nor do I consider myself to be a pessimistic person. I responded to FLL’s off the cuff celebration dance. If my response sounded depressing it is because we as a country are in a very poor position at this current time in history. Unemployment and the devaluation of our assets on the world market really SUCK!

Issues need to get to a tipping point before action is planned and executed. I do believe we can address issues and fix problems. When you stated “…the grass wasn’t greener from where we came from – now what?” You are so right to point out that things were good in previous administrations. I now believe we have hit the tipping point and we are going to finally get back to fundamentals and start to address real issues.

We live in a society where politicians run the country and have effectively grown the government to a point where it is now taking so much away from the producers that many are taking note. We have allowed regulations to be ignored causing a world wide financial crisis. We have to shoulder the blame. Shame on us if we don’t insure it can’t happen again. I have been in contact with my rep and 2 senators as have many others with suggestions and they are indicating that they are working hard to “fix” problems. We will have to wait to see what they really do.

To get back to the SL issue - the politics seem to have been manipulated and the SL (IMO) was a sugar pill trying to cure a different “bonehead” problem.

Thanks for your reply. I take responsibility for what I write.

Kracken · 09-23-2009, 10:14 AM

The speed limit threads are some of the most popular threads on this site. The debate has been wildly entertaining, heated and passionate on both sides, but it should come with a warning: For entertainment purposes only.

Both the supporters and the opponents have given facts to support their sides. It would have been fantastic if the members of winnipesaukee.com could have reached a compromise and then sent it to Concord. After all, four thousand plus agreeing on the speed limit would certainly influence an elected official. Unfortunately we didn’t even come close.

I believe the people of New Hampshire should decide the fate of speed limits on Lake Winnipesaukee. Unfortunately that is never going to happen. Most people think we live in a democracy, well we really don’t. We live in a republic and there is a very big difference. In a republic, well funded small groups can lobby their representatives and persuade them to passing or blocking legislation. They can generate propaganda and get public support by misrepresenting the facts. They can create fake groups and solicit donations to further their cause.

Does anybody think it odd that since House Bill 847 passed we have heard nothing from Winnfabs? Their website has not been updated since January 30, 2008. Winnfabs claims to be “a group of citizens who love Lake Winnipesaukee and who want to ensure safe family boating and preserve the beauty and serenity of the lake for present and future generations.” Does their silence mean they believe the lake is now safe? If they were not simply a special interest group created for the sole purpose of getting a speed limit passed wouldn’t they still be actively promoting safe boating practices? I have a strong feeling we will once again be hearing from the Winnfabs. They will be looking for donations to help champion their cause, to make the speed limit permanent.

I am against small groups of special interest people imposing their will upon everyone. I am against people who want to censor those with opposing views. If the majority of people in this state wanted the speed limit while I would still disagree with it, I could accept it. When a law is passed by making deals with legislators that becomes a concern for everyone.

Let’s look at the letter Mr. Chase wrote to the Sun. He states his opinion as he stated it many times here. I have no problem with that. What is reprehensible is his attempt to silence his opposition (he tried that here too). He actually urges the paper not print any opposing views without carefully checking out the background of the author. Well who is checking on you Mr. Chase? He also represents all who oppose the speed limits as outlaws, liars and cowboys. For those of you who support the speed limit, you can’t possibly want to be identified with this.

The most discouraging aspect of the speed limit debate is the silence from the majority. I understand that the law doesn’t affect most people and it is easy to stay out of the way. I not only understand, I was one of you until 3 months ago.

The Lake has changed, and not for the better. Not to long ago on our lake every boater waved and smiled to every other boater. There was a bond among boaters, a bond that transcended what type of boat it was, a belief that more things drew us together than pulled us apart. That is the Lake Winnipesaukee I want to return to.

SIKSUKR · 09-23-2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kracken

What is reprehensible is his attempt to silence his opposition (he tried that here too). He actually urges the paper not print any opposing views without carefully checking out the background of the author. Well who is checking on you Mr. Chase? He also represents all who oppose the speed limits as outlaws, liars and cowboys. For those of you who support the speed limit, you can’t possibly want to be identified with this.
.

Excellent post.This paragraph sounds very similar to recent political events,does it not?A broad stroke of the brush to anyone that disagrees with them.

NoRegrets · 09-23-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kracken

.....The most discouraging aspect of the speed limit debate is the silence from the majority. I understand that the law doesn’t affect most people and it is easy to stay out of the way. I not only understand, I was one of you until 3 months ago.

The Lake has changed, and not for the better. Not to long ago on our lake every boater waved and smiled to every other boater. There was a bond among boaters, a bond that transcended what type of boat it was, a belief that more things drew us together than pulled us apart. That is the Lake Winnipesaukee I want to return to.

Thank you sir, well said. To add an opinion to this portion of your post I believe the silent majority is not focused on this recreational issue. They are working on making a living and the SL impacts a only a small population of a privileged few that value this sport. It doesn't make it right but it is somewhat unrealistic to expect non-boaters from winni stop what they are doing to rally to this cause. I do hope the political climate is changing or about to change and the small special interest groups get exposed in an unbiased media. (One can dream!).

The other point I copied about the acknowledgement of others with a wave. In the seventies all bikes waved at passing bikers. Today only the old veterans do. I think the fast pace has had a negative impact on the human aspects of communication.

DoTheMath · 09-23-2009, 11:14 AM

Throughout my adult life I have had all kinds of boats, big, small, fast, slow, etc... I literally grew up "summering" on this lake and have watched it change quite a bit over my 40 yrs, some for the better - and some, admittedly not. (I miss Anderson's Bakery in Ctr. Harbor, they had the best donuts! And as a kid, walking to Robbins General Store for candy or an ice cream out of the cooler). Anyway, I digress... I honestly think the "most fun" boat I / we had growing up was a 13' Whaler with a 40hp 2S Merc on it. We bought it new from Browns, it came with "manual" trim and I installed a power trim kit on it, it ran 42-44mph on it's best day in perfect conditions. At WOT that boat felt like it was going 80mph - you were 12" off the water and it was a blast! I scared a lot of friends that weren't "boat people" in that thing - great boat! Jumping up to a 42' Outerlimits with 1,700hp, at 100mph - it feels like you are sitting in a lazyboy with a big fan blowing wind in your face. It's all relative to the size and conditions at the time you are out. At 65mph, that same boat feels like it's "loafing" along, the engines are running smooth and easy and you barely feel the waves you are crossing, it is a very comfortable and controlled ride. OCD has mentioned this numerous times in previous posts, the boats are DESIGNED to perform VERY well and very controlled at the speeds that they achieve. Imagine doing 65mph in a 13' Whaler - as much as I would love to try it, given an open body of water with no boat traffic and flat and calm conditions, I would never dream of doing it on Winni, ever!

It's funny how most SL proponents seem to forget something very important - and I have said this over and over - guns don't kill people, people kill people! We always read about "Captain Bonehead" on here - note, no one ever refers to the boat itself, it is always the operator! "This guy on a jet ski cut in front of me yesterday, what a jerk" or "I had this guy in a bowrider, with 9 people on board nail it coming out of the channel, he was only 25' from me". Now, in any case of negligence or "operator" error - has it been the boats fault that what happened - happened!? Did "the boat" decide to go against the operator and turn itself in front of you, cutting you off and breaking the 150' rule!? Did "the boat" decide to slow to a speed that let up a huge wake and crashed your boat against your dock - damaging both - while the operator yelled at it telling it not to!? To quote Forrest Gump "stupid is as stupid does" - and if you look at the last (and ONLY) two significant accidents to occur on the lake in the last 10+ years, both were operator error, period! (And at least one so far was proven to have taken place UNDER 30mph!) Call it what you will, bad judgment, driver impaired, weather conditions, etc... it was plain and simple the operator that was responsible, and always is. I know plenty of people on this lake that own boats that will run fast - very fast, and not a SINGLE one of them has been involved in an incident of any kind that would be construed as negative. I have seen over the period that the SL has become an issue, an exponential number of "family boats", cruisers and Waverunners involved in the most unbelievably dumb, careless and unsafe incidents! The SL has had nothing to do with any perceived changes in the way the lake was this summer, chalk it up to the economy and sheer coincidence. BTW - I still saw more than my fair share of "captain boneheads" on the lake this summer, I was up less than all prior summers, and NONE were driving a performance boat! None involved going really fast either, it was mostly the 150' rule and the right of way rule that were the culprit. Tubing / skiing in the most foolish locations - traffic-laden, etc... - and just not paying attention in general.

Face it people - speed is not the enemy here, and it never has been but some people like to think that the performance boat crowd is. That our "Golden Pond" has become a playground for all they despise - gone are the birch-bark canoes - replaced with loud and "unsafe" speed boats. How about gone are the responsible owner / operators ACTING responsibly! You are responsible for your own actions, man-up and act like you are! There is plenty of water for all to enjoy, but we need to be responsible for our actions - on and off the water! I can assure you, I can promise you and prove to you that a 20' bowrider at 50mph can be far more dangerous than a 38' performance boat at the same speed.

Sure, there are times that I wish this lake was the lake I knew when I was a kid, less populated and developed, but at the same time - I love the lake today! My 4 1/2 year old son also loves the lake, being out on the boat, visiting friends and playing in the water. You know, "he-said - she-said, he-did - she-did" is getting old and moving us no where fast! Let's figure it out and make it work people, so generations to come can enjoy it all too...

Mark

BroadHopper · 09-23-2009, 11:26 AM

I agree with DoTheMath. I, my Dad and my Grandfather lived on the lake since birth. We all feel the same way as Dothemath posted.

It is just that those people who have not lived the lake like we do that just don't get it. They come from other parts of the country and expect everything to be like the movie 'On Golden Pond'. If they want that atmosphere then they should look elsewhere. Winnipesaukee is Winnipesaukee. I unique lake with a unique past. Why change it?
Winnipesaukee have never been 'On Golden Pond'.

Newbiesaukee · 09-23-2009, 11:42 AM

I really do not care about the speed limit controversy, the max I go is about 35 and I try to avoid dealing with or being Captain B. However, as an avid reader of the LDS letter page, I find the distortions in this letter are about the same as most of those in letters touching on almost any subject that people feel strongly about. People believe what they want to believe; it is "true" if it agrees with their own thoughts and a "lie" if it doesn't. There, unfortunately does not seem to be any middle ground. But isn't that what free speech allows us to do? Our responsibility is to separate the real truth from the cr*p. Not an easy task in these difficult times.

Airwaves · 09-23-2009, 12:23 PM

Finally a letter in the LDS calling into question what lake Mr. Weeks and Mr. Chase were on when they wrote about the boating season this summer.

I have to wonder how the LDS comes up wiht the headlines they put on these letters. Mr. Stewart, author of today's letter, mentioned in passing (I took it as sarcasm) about canoe fees to pay for the increased number of rescues of bonehead paddlers and lo and behold it's the headline of the letter!

Dave R · 09-23-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I agree with DoTheMath. I, my Dad and my Grandfather lived on the lake since birth. We all feel the same way as Dothemath posted.

It is just that those people who have not lived the lake like we do that just don't get it. They come from other parts of the country and expect everything to be like the movie 'On Golden Pond'. If they want that atmosphere then they should look elsewhere. Winnipesaukee is Winnipesaukee. I unique lake with a unique past. Why change it?
Winnipesaukee have never been 'On Golden Pond'.

Funny you mention the movie... On Golden Pond had quite a few safe passage violations (at least 4) captured on film. Not sure when the Safe Passage law was enacted though, so the stuff shown may have been prefectly legal at the time.

hazelnut · 09-23-2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kracken

The speed limit threads are some of the most popular threads on this site. The debate has been wildly entertaining, heated and passionate on both sides, but it should come with a warning: For entertainment purposes only.

Both the supporters and the opponents have given facts to support their sides. It would have been fantastic if the members of winnipesaukee.com could have reached a compromise and then sent it to Concord. After all, four thousand plus agreeing on the speed limit would certainly influence an elected official. Unfortunately we didn’t even come close.

I believe the people of New Hampshire should decide the fate of speed limits on Lake Winnipesaukee. Unfortunately that is never going to happen. Most people think we live in a democracy, well we really don’t. We live in a republic and there is a very big difference. In a republic, well funded small groups can lobby their representatives and persuade them to passing or blocking legislation. They can generate propaganda and get public support by misrepresenting the facts. They can create fake groups and solicit donations to further their cause.

Does anybody think it odd that since House Bill 847 passed we have heard nothing from Winnfabs? Their website has not been updated since January 30, 2008. Winnfabs claims to be “a group of citizens who love Lake Winnipesaukee and who want to ensure safe family boating and preserve the beauty and serenity of the lake for present and future generations.” Does their silence mean they believe the lake is now safe? If they were not simply a special interest group created for the sole purpose of getting a speed limit passed wouldn’t they still be actively promoting safe boating practices? I have a strong feeling we will once again be hearing from the Winnfabs. They will be looking for donations to help champion their cause, to make the speed limit permanent.

I am against small groups of special interest people imposing their will upon everyone. I am against people who want to censor those with opposing views. If the majority of people in this state wanted the speed limit while I would still disagree with it, I could accept it. When a law is passed by making deals with legislators that becomes a concern for everyone.

Let’s look at the letter Mr. Chase wrote to the Sun. He states his opinion as he stated it many times here. I have no problem with that. What is reprehensible is his attempt to silence his opposition (he tried that here too). He actually urges the paper not print any opposing views without carefully checking out the background of the author. Well who is checking on you Mr. Chase? He also represents all who oppose the speed limits as outlaws, liars and cowboys. For those of you who support the speed limit, you can’t possibly want to be identified with this.

The most discouraging aspect of the speed limit debate is the silence from the majority. I understand that the law doesn’t affect most people and it is easy to stay out of the way. I not only understand, I was one of you until 3 months ago.

The Lake has changed, and not for the better. Not to long ago on our lake every boater waved and smiled to every other boater. There was a bond among boaters, a bond that transcended what type of boat it was, a belief that more things drew us together than pulled us apart. That is the Lake Winnipesaukee I want to return to.

Could you please submit this to the Laconia Sun? This is excellent! You eloquently stated what many feel here and what many many friends of mine feel.

I'm serious when I say this but I NEVER come across anyone in the Lakes Region that supports the Speed Limit. I swear to god I am not lying. I am in the lakes region all summer long, on my boat, in restaurants, arcades, gas docks, stores, friends houses. Literally hundreds of places and hundreds of people. Some are friends some are acquaintances, some are total strangers. I never ever ever come across any supporters? Why is this? Try it for yourself. Randomly figure out ways to work it into conversations with people around the lake. Waiters, waitresses, gas dock attendants, neighbors. The key here is to not give away your position. Just say something like. "Is there a Speed Limit on the lake?" Then see their reaction. Most roll their eyes. Then engage in conversation and you'll quickly find out NOBODY supports it. I'm not lying, I did this a lot this summer and I continue to do it. It's sort of my unofficial poll. I never reveal my feelings on the matter I just hmph, shrug my shoulders and wink at my wife. She has been keeping track of what I do and when I do it. She concurs although she doesn't care one way or the other. She won't even drive the boat.

Note: I never tried this on Bear Island

VitaBene · 09-24-2009, 06:57 AM

Here is another SL letter. Only the name is redacted. Sorry for the formatting of these letters- I use a full version of Acrobat that allows copying but it can't be manipulated.

Boat speed limit supporters have no data to back up their claims
To the editor,
As I was sitting at the Meredith
town docks reading Mr. Weeks’ eloquent
letter to editor concerning his
dramatic support for the speed limit
law on Lake Winnipesaukee, a few
things came to mind.
Mr. Weeks attributes the reduced
boating activity on our big lake to the
success of the new limits in effect. However,
reports in all local papers, not to
mention statements from the Marine
Patrol and marina owners, all stated
that boat traffic was way down from
normal this summer, not only on Lake
Winnipesaukee, which is the only lake
affected by the speed limits but the
entire Lakes Region — not very surprising
given the dramatic recession
we’ve had since last year, and the poor
weather in the Lakes Region during
June and July and parts of August.
The economy has battered people’s
retirement accounts, home values,
and the unemployment rate has risen
to a two-decade high. Not exactly the
environment one would expect a lake
area to thrive in and certainly not
due to the new speed limit law, a law
the NH Marine Patrol testified was
unnecessary to begin with.
What really surprised me the most
was Mr. Weeks statement that, “WE
FINALLY HAD A SUMMER WITHOUT
A HIGH-SPEED TRAGEDY”.
This made me wonder, when was
the last time a high speed tragedy
occurred on Lake Winnipesaukee?
New Hampshire Marine Patrol accident
statistics for Lake Winnipesaukee
do not list a “high speed tragedy”
in recent memory so how is it that we
“Finally had a summer without one”?
Accident statistics do not show any
boat accident and certainly no fatal
accidents where speed was attributed
as the cause on Lake Winnipesaukee
over the past decade or more.
As to his praise for the Marine
Patrol, it very well is deserved since
their budgets are not thriving in this
economy. But I feel the praise was
misplaced.
The Marine Patrol director is on the
record at least twice, in not supporting
the speed limit provision of the
current law. His reasoning? “Speeding
is not a problem on the lake”. The
tests that occurred on Winnipesaukee
last year, tests that WINNFABS supported,
pretty much backed up the
director’s claims.
The law has a sunset provision, a
given period of two years.
The supporters NOW want to make
the law permanent, without any data to
review. I know for a fact that their reasoning
is that they know full well that
the lake traffic this year was pretty low
(note the contradiction to Mr. Weeks
claim), not to mention that the data
would clearly indicate that the speed
limit portion of the law had no data supporting
it’s passing to being with and
nothing supporting it now.
Regardless of the outcome, I think
that the law should stand on its own
merits and that the original sunset
provision should remain as written! I
further state that the data should be
made public as soon as it is available.
The Marine Patrol would obviously be
a great, first hand resource for media
to follow-up on this contentious issue.
Regardless of anyone’s opinion of this
law, I do believe that the public has a
right to know the facts, all of the facts.
Unfortunately, there were far too
many people like Mr. Weeks and WinnFabs
that dominated the process,
and the public has not been served
well by their actions or words.
Whenever anyone, or any group,
tries to conceal the truth to support
an idea, a giant RED FLAG should
go up. Behind their statements, probably
well behind those statements if
history is any indicator, the truth does
exist. Lake Winnipesaukee is a state
treasure, not something that belongs
to people with political or ideological
agendas. It is a SHARED resource.
Before anyone buys into Mr. Weeks
drama concerning the chaos that has
magically disappeared, perhaps the
public, you, should directly ask him
and the WinnFabs to support any of
their previous claims that chaos of
speeding boats ever existed in the first
place!
Drama belongs in the theater, not in
the law-making process.

VitaBene · 09-24-2009, 07:01 AM

Canoe registration fee will be need to pay for recovery efforts
To the editor,
I’m not sure what lake, or planet for
that matter, Mr. Weeks or Mr. Chase
refer to when they write of a noticeable
difference with the new boating
speed limit law. For the record, I am
a New Hampshire native and I am
on the lake Spring, Summer and Fall.
You know they are truly making this
up because they even claim the boating
traffic was still brisk. Who are
they kidding? By all accounts this
was the lightest boat traffic Summer
of any I’ve witnessed during my lifelong
residency in the Lakes Region.
Between this wonderful economy
and the lovely Summer weather, it
shouldn’t be much of a surprise that
there were very few boats on the lakes
this year. The only thing the boating
speed limit accomplished was slowing
down a few boats so I now get to listen
to them go by longer and I still get to
enjoy those ginormous boats wreck
my dock and erode my shoreline as
they leave their tsunami wake behind
them at 15 mph.
It sounds to me like these gentlemen
are speaking for the “I moved
here from somewhere else and it’s now
my lake” crowd. Our current band of
legislatures are experts at dropping
everything to debate yet another
meaningless problem like this one.
Meanwhile, Rome continues to burn.
As for boat safety, I did see several
brave souls attempt a canoe trip
across the dangerously windy and
wavy barren lake. I’m sure there will
be a few fatalities in the future for
those visitors who think a speed limit
will now let them safely navigate the
wavy waters in their tiny boats. I definitely
see the need for a canoe registration
fee to help pay the costs of the
rescue teams that will be looking for
their bodies. Of course the next step
for these liberals will be to pass a law
requiring all passengers to wear a life
jacket. Seriously, why not completely
kill what’s left to the lake economy
and what used to be a fun lake

OCDACTIVE · 09-24-2009, 07:09 AM

Thank you Vita for listing those. Now at least there is some balance in the media.

NoRegrets · 09-24-2009, 07:20 AM

I would like to second OCTATIVE thanks for posting the articles. It sure makes one proud to see a well constructed rebutal to fiction.

In case some question Fiction :
Fiction (Latin: fictum, "created") is a branch of literature which deals, in part or in whole, with temporally contrafactual events (events that are not true at the time of writing).

VtSteve · 09-24-2009, 07:37 AM

an opinion without alarming language or storytelling. Refreshing.

VitaBene · 09-24-2009, 10:56 AM

I try to look at the LDS daily but if I miss any (either side of the discussion) let me know and I will look back at the archive and post them.

I guess we all should be looking at the Monitor and other papers as well.

Airwaves · 09-24-2009, 07:50 PM

Looks like Mr Weeks found the address of the Laconia Daily Citizen...from yesterday's paper:

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll.../-1/CITOPINION

hazelnut · 09-24-2009, 08:06 PM

Every time I read that letter....

It's like really good comedy.

Thanks for the laugh Mr. Weeks. I needed it.

The other SL Support letter posted by the other individual is downright insulting. This one is at least hilarious. The other letter actually hurts their cause IMO. When you make silly claims about the opposition and "what they are thinking," you come off sounding paranoid and actually a tad delusional. Most people will see through these letters I am sure. I am confident there are many lakes region area residents scratching their heads over these letters and getting a good chuckle.

OCDACTIVE · 09-24-2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Every time I read that letter....

It's like really good comedy.

Thanks for the laugh Mr. Weeks. I needed it.

The other SL Support letter posted by the other individual is downright insulting. This one is at least hilarious. The other letter actually hurts their cause IMO. When you make silly claims about the opposition and "what they are thinking," you come off sounding paranoid and actually a tad delusional. Most people will see through these letters I am sure. I am confident there are many lakes region area residents scratching their heads over these letters and getting a good chuckle.

Just need to get another letter and a laugh from "he who must not be named" or may return.....

ApS · 09-25-2009, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

"...I don't know if the landslide victory by Lynch set a record or not, but the support for Kenney by WinnFabs and their kind evaporated when he needed it...Sounds like WinnFabs and the like are fair weather friends that can't be counted on to me...!"

According to a telephone conversation I had with a Senator Kenney staffer, the Senator wasn't even lukewarm on the issue originally: perhaps the issue could have helped him, but any support he gave was too late.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

"...They have boats and PWC that can easily exceed 50 mph..."

Depending on conditions, I'd say that the MP06 boat (a "fast" MP boat) cannot exceed 55-MPH.

You and Dave R missed my point: If 55-MPH (max) is consistent with Public Safety, what is 90-MPH, but a blatant disregard for Public Safety?

VtSteve · 09-25-2009, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Every time I read that letter....

It's like really good comedy.

Thanks for the laugh Mr. Weeks. I needed it.

The other SL Support letter posted by the other individual is downright insulting. This one is at least hilarious. The other letter actually hurts their cause IMO. When you make silly claims about the opposition and "what they are thinking," you come off sounding paranoid and actually a tad delusional. Most people will see through these letters I am sure. I am confident there are many lakes region area residents scratching their heads over these letters and getting a good chuckle.

And there are some that are happy that high speed accidents aren't happening with reckless abandon. How would they know? Does anyone care about facts anymore? Bi said COME On, last year.

OCDACTIVE · 09-25-2009, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

what is 90-MPH, but a blatant disregard for Public Safety?

If the boat can handle it and the conditions warrent why would this be an issue at all?

OCDACTIVE · 09-25-2009, 06:31 AM

That same letter rebutting Mr. Week's letter appeared in the Concord Monitor today under:

Summer wasn't a true test of speed limits.

chipj29 · 09-25-2009, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitaBene

I try to look at the LDS daily but if I miss any (either side of the discussion) let me know and I will look back at the archive and post them.

I guess we all should be looking at the Monitor and other papers as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

That same letter rebutting Mr. Week's letter appeared in the Concord Monitor today under:

Summer wasn't a true test of speed limits.

Here is the link http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/p...909240319/1017

And the letter:
As I was sitting at the Meredith town docks reading Jack Weeks's column concerning his support for the speed limit law on Lake Winnipesaukee ("All quiet on the big lake," Sunday Monitor Viewpoints, Sept. 20), a few things came to mind.

Weeks attributes the reduced boating activity to the success of the new speed limits. However, recent reports in all the local newspapers, not to mention statements from the Marine Patrol and marina owners, all said that boat traffic was way down this summer, not only on Lake Winnipesaukee, the only lake affected by the speed limits, but across the entire Lakes Region. Not surprising, given the economic recession and the poor weather in June, July and parts of August.

The economy has battered people's retirement accounts and home values, and the unemployment rate has risen to a two-decade high. Not exactly the environment one would expect a lake area to thrive in.

What surprised me the most was Weeks's statement that "We finally had a summer without a high-speed tragedy." This made me wonder, when was the last time a high-speed tragedy occurred on Lake Winnipesaukee? New Hampshire Marine Patrol accident statistics do not list a "high-speed tragedy" in recent memory.

As to his praise for the Marine Patrol, it well is deserved, since their budgets are not thriving in this economy. But I feel the praise was misplaced.

The Marine Patrol director is on the record at least twice in not supporting the speed limits. His reasoning? Speeding is not a problem on the lake. The tests on Winnipesaukee last year pretty much backed up the director's claims.

The law has a sunset provision, a given period of two years.

The supporters now want to make the law permanent, without any data to review. They know full well that the lake traffic this year was pretty low, not to mention that the data would clearly not support the speed limit.

Lake Winnipesaukee is a state treasure, not something that belongs to people with political or ideological agendas. It is a shared resource.

Before anyone buys into Weeks's drama concerning the chaos that has magically disappeared, perhaps you should ask him and the WinnFabs to support any of their previous claims that chaos of speeding boats ever existed in the first place! Drama belongs in the theater, not in the law-making process.

OCDACTIVE · 09-25-2009, 06:56 AM

To be fair there is also another small letter in the Laconia Daily Sun today from a supporter. Opinion is fine. He doesn't say anything inflameatory. The only issue again is he says they FEEL safer with the limits. Again laws are not supposed to make you feel safer they are supposed to make you safer... I can't stand redundant laws that accomplish nothing.....

Ryan · 09-25-2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

To be fair there is also another small letter in the Laconia Daily Sun today from a supporter. Opinion is fine. He doesn't say anything inflameatory. The only issue again is he says they FEEL safer with the limits. Again laws are not supposed to make you feel safer they are supposed to make you safer... I can't stand redundant laws that accomplish nothing.....

I'm curious who keeps the count of canoes and kayaks on the lake? According to the author (who is probably a member of WinnFABS - IMO) there were "many" more non powered boats on the lake.

Seems to me it's just another ficticious statistic - similar to all of the high speed accidents from previous years.

onlywinni · 09-25-2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

I'm curious who keeps the count of canoes and kayaks on the lake? According to the author (who is probably a member of WinnFABS - IMO) there were "many" more non powered boats on the lake.

Seems to me it's just another ficticious statistic - similar to all of the high speed accidents from previous years.

Scare tactics, misinformation and right out lies-appear to be the tools utilized by the Extreme Speed Limit Supporters.

I have two questions:

-If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around does it still make a sound?

-If I blast across the broads at 65mph and no one is close enough to hear or see me are people still Traumitzed??????

Woodsy · 09-25-2009, 11:16 AM

Deleted....

Reason: Poor attempt at sarcastic humor! Sorry guys!

Woodsy

codeman671 · 09-25-2009, 12:34 PM

Woodsy, I am not sure where you were trying to end up with your post. Onlywinni was criticizing supporters of the limit. Maybe you misinterpreted the post, or am I?

OCDACTIVE · 09-25-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

Woodsy, I am not sure where you were trying to end up with your post. Onlywinni was criticizing supporters of the limit. Maybe you misinterpreted the post, or am I?

I was kinda confused as well... Figured it would come out sooner or later.. I believe Woodsy is also a speed limit opposer.

codeman671 · 09-25-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

I was kinda confused as well... Figured it would come out sooner or later.. I believe Woodsy is also a speed limit opposer.

He is, which is why I could not understand where he was going with it.

brk-lnt · 09-25-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

He is, which is why I could not understand where he was going with it.

If you read it carefully, he was trying to be sarcastic.

However, like all the speed limit threads for the past year, it doesn't really matter what he was trying to convey because nobodies mind is being changed anyway.

Wolfeboro_Baja · 09-25-2009, 03:45 PM

One of the problems I’ve had with all the speed limit rhetoric this year has been the frequent references to “the testing done last year” or “the lake has been paradise these last 2 years”. Apparently, these people don’t realize that the “testing” they keep referring to as taking place in 2008 was actually supposed to be done in 2007! I say “supposed” because they never marked the test zones AND never enforced a temporary speed limit in 2007!! Instead, all the MP did was collect data (on many areas of the lake, not just those intended “test speed limit zones”), recording how many boats were observed and at what rate of speed those boats were traveling. Anyone who was aware of this didn’t have to worry about being ticketed for “speeding” because they knew MP WAS NOT TICKETING! Therefore, there shouldn’t have been any false sense of security supposedly caused by boaters obeying a speed limit; there was no speed limit in 2007 to obey other than the usual posted NWZ’s and speed limits created/set by the 150’ rule. There was also NO speed limit OR testing in 2008!!! The ONLY thing speed-limit-related that happened last year was HB-847 was introduced, passed and signed into law effective 1/1/2009!!!

The “paradise” or “calmness” on the lake last year probably had more to do with the lousy weather, economy tanking and the high price of boat fuel!!!!

Just my 2 cents…………

hazelnut · 09-25-2009, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

If you read it carefully, he was trying to be sarcastic.

However, like all the speed limit threads for the past year, it doesn't really matter what he was trying to convey because nobodies mind is being changed anyway.

Yes he was. I do happen to know Woodsy personally and I am confident he was being sarcastic.

He and Onlywinni surely see eye to eye on this issue. I believe Woodsy was merely pointing out that nobody could possibly be Traumatized by any boat traveling at any speed ever. The definition of the word clearly spells that out. That doesn't stop the SL supporters from using terms like that to support their cause.

Woodsy · 09-25-2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsy

OnlyWinni...

I think your a bit off here.... perhaps you need to look up the definition?? I will do it for you...

Main Entry: trau·ma·tize
Pronunciation: \-ˌtīz\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): trau·ma·tized; trau·ma·tiz·ing
Date: 1903
: to inflict a trauma upon

Main Entry: trau·ma
Pronunciation: \ˈtrau̇-mə, ˈtrȯ-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural traumas also trau·ma·ta \-mə-tə\
Etymology: Greek traumat-, trauma wound, alteration of trōma; akin to Greek titrōskein to wound, tetrainein to pierce — more at throw
Date: circa 1693
1 a : an injury (as a wound) to living tissue caused by an extrinsic agent b : a disordered psychic or behavioral state resulting from severe mental or emotional stress or physical injury c : an emotional upset
2 : an agent, force, or mechanism that causes trauma

Of course a tree falling in the forest makes noise so what? What is your point? Nobody was there to witness/hear the tree fall. Nobody will be TRAUMATIZED by this event.... I suppose you walk in the forest just waiting for a tree to fall on you?

On the same note, blasting across the Broads at 65MPH TRAUMATIZES nobody! How can a boat minding its own business inflict any kind of trauma (with exception to the driver/passengers) regardless of what speed it travels? Especially if there isnt anyone around to witness the event!

If I were to apply your logic, you are probably too TRAUMATIZED to operate any sort of motor vehicle on the public roads even though there are speed limits and traffic rules (just as there are on the lake). I mean if 65 is too fast for a boat how do you ever drive on a highway?? Where (GASP) people routinely drive faster than the posted speeds and accidents occur?

Woodsy

This was an obviously poor attempt at sarcastic humor and was certainly not intended to insult OnlyWinni... I would feel awful if I traumatized him. It was an attempt to be sarcastic towards the logic often used by the speed limit supporters.....

Sorry if I offended in any way!

Woodsy

VtSteve · 09-25-2009, 06:42 PM

I'm not sure it's possible to traumatize him with posts Woodsy.

I was traumatized this morning when I say three to five footers driven from the North here. I thought I was traumatized, but now I'm not so sure

They were going really fast for waves.

ApS · 09-26-2009, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

what is 90-MPH, but a blatant disregard for Public Safety?

If the boat can handle it and the conditions warrent why would this be an issue at all?

The Marine Patrol's Public Safety officers meet emergency requirements with much less than 55-MPH—perhaps with an MP fleet-average of only 45-MPH. (!)

With emergencies met by Public Safety officers at an average speed of 45-MPH, what is 90-MPH—but a reckless disregard for the naïve boater who occasions Lake Winnipesaukee?
.
.

.
.
.

ApS · 09-26-2009, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

"...I agree with DoTheMath. I, my Dad and my Grandfather lived on the lake since birth..."

1) I'd give you "double-points" if your progenitors were Native-Americans, but even they arrived from "somewhere else".

2) It pains me to hear my elderly Dad speak sometimes:

Quote:

"There should be an airport—in there"
"There should be a golf course—over there."

This state's natural beauty needs to be cut down, built up, and an American flag posted over it?

.
.
3) Your New Hampshire Grandfather (and mine) were far less conscious of the importance New Hampshire's natural scenery, forests, lake quality and wildlife has to residents and to tourists.

Neither of our Grandfathers likely objected to the despoiling of New Hampshire scenery—even to the point that an organization had to be formed in our Grandfathers' day. What conditions caused NH citizens to respond to NH's despoiling?

Loggers had burned "slash" from slopes on the White Mountains that blocked visibility on the streets of Boston!

4) Back then, remember, it was not uncommon to shoot Loons—for sport!

Until genetic engineering can breed Loons with fluorescent-orange plumage, well...the "enlightened concerns of Today" means we need to live with sane speeds on the Big Lake.

Speeds we can live with.
.
.
IMO
.
.

BroadHopper · 09-27-2009, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

1) I'd give you "double-points" if your progenitors were Native-Americans, but even they arrived from "somewhere else".

.

Okay so I am Iroquis and not Abenaki. My ancestors arrive from Adirondocks. Maybe EVERYONE should go home and leave the lake be????

onlywinni · 09-28-2009, 07:33 AM

No offense taken here...

I was being a wise guy in the first place...

fatlazyless · 09-28-2009, 07:43 AM

Another concerned citizen, one from the Republican town of Wolfeboro of all places, wrote to the LaDaSun last Friday, I think, with a straight foward and intelligent letter supporting the speed limits and supporting WinnFabs. Will go search the kitchen trash basket for that letter.........later......must have been a Democratic albatross or something?.......

Wolfeboro_Baja · 09-28-2009, 12:00 PM

Darn, I was going to copy/paste that letter to the editor from Friday's paper but the way the Laconia Daily Sun puts their paper "online", it cuts off the bottom of every page and that letter is at or near the bottom so part of is missing. I wouldn't want to paste part of it here and be accused of improper editing.

Anyone have the actual paper and can transcribe it into a post here?

Skipper of the Sea Que · 09-29-2009, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

Darn, I was going to copy/paste that letter to the editor from Friday's paper but the way the Laconia Daily Sun puts their paper "online", it cuts off the bottom of every page and that letter is at or near the bottom so part of is missing. I wouldn't want to paste part of it here and be accused of improper editing.

Anyone have the actual paper and can transcribe it into a post here?

Here's a copy/paste from page 4 of Friday's Laconia Daily Sun
Laconia Daily Sun - Friday Sept. 25, 2009

East side of the lake supports 45/25 boat speed limit as well

To the editor,
Living on the east side of Lake Winnipesaukee,
I seldom see a copy of
your fine newspaper. I was fortunate
to pick up the September 17 issue and
was pleased to see the letter from Mr.
Jack Weeks of Meredith. His observation
that there was much more family
boating activity (kayaks, canoes,
small runabouts, etc) on the lake this
summer certainly applies to the east
side of the lake as well as the west
side. The general feeling that the lake
is a much safer place with the 45/25
mile speed limit in place is shared by
all that I have talked to over here.
His plea to make the 45/25 mile an
hour speed limits permanent is fully
supported by most of us on this side
of the lake. We ask that all of you who
support Mr. Week’s views to write
to your legislators asking that they
make the law permanent.
To the best of my knowledge, Mr.
Weeks has not been associated with
WinnFABS (Winnipesaukee Family
Alliance for Boating Safety), so we are
most delighted to know that he supports
our efforts financially and with
his writing.
Those readers who would like to
support WinnFABS financially or
would prefer to have WinnFABS forward
their letters to their legislators,
can contact WinnFABS at PO Box
1341. Meredith, NH 03253.
name redacted
Wolfeboro

---------

for a different point of view see next post

09-17-2009, 02:43 PM	#4
Kracken Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Alton Posts: 223 Thanks: 46 Thanked 130 Times in 50 Posts	Are you kidding me? This is truly the Theatre Of The Absurd Putting aside the numerous bold face lies in this article, I can only hope this was an editorial and not being passed off as actual news because it has no basis in fact. Speed limits are not the reason the lake is quieter this year. It has been stated correctly many times in this forum and in the real news that the traffic is down due to the weather and the economy. 1. Weather There were only a handful of weekends all summer that were rain/wind/thunderstorm free. While this may not stop lakefront property owners from boating it would surely stop day boaters. Downing’s Landing should have had a great year with the closing of the ramps at Ames Farm. I spoke with the former train conductor at Dawning’s and he confirmed it was a horrible year. There were only a couple of days this summer they were full. 2. Economy I have heard the argument over and over that gas is 3 bucks on the lake and last year it was almost 5 bucks so it’s really not the economy. BULL HOCKEY This year more people are unemployed but that is not the big factor. Most Americans are fearful of becoming unemployed and in this economy the prospect of finding a new job is scary at best. A two dollar decrease in gas price is meaningless compared to people not knowing if or when their next paycheck will come. Giving credit to a silly law for making the lake quieter and safer is moronic and irresponsible. I realize the people who supported the limits are happy with their victory and do not want to give up something they fought so hard for. But do not fabricate results to justify your position. If the speed limit supporters wanted to extend the law because any data this year is tainted due to the decreased traffic I would completely understand it and even support it. But to claim its working??? The facts do not substantiate this. I hope somebody here will send a letter to the editor to counter the original article.

09-17-2009, 05:12 PM	#6
malibu Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 7 Thanks: 21 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	Time to fight back There used be a group that fought the good fight against these lies (winnilakers), we need to educate the general public with the true facts like they use to. If we allow these lies to continue people will start believing they are true. Were any of you part of winnilakers; I was and participated as much as I had time for. If I recall they actually had a spokes person that would concentrate their efforts. Maybe a new site is in order to concentrate everyone’s thoughts and efforts, one that locks out the uninvited. Malibu

09-17-2009, 07:09 PM	#7
Pineedles Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Moultonborough & CT Posts: 2,541 Thanks: 1,071 Thanked 667 Times in 366 Posts	Effective Letter to the Editor If YOU "Speed Limit Opponents" have any hope of defeating or even negotiating a compromise, then YOU better learn from this letter. It will kill YOUR chances of anything if not rebutted in this and every newspaper in the State of New Hampshire. If YOU REALLY CARE about this issue, then in the next 2-3 days, YOU should be writing a letter exposing this collection of lies to every publication in NH that accepts letters to the editor submissions. Stop arguing with TB and others, and write the damn letters! i really don't care that much, i just like to see the playing field leveled, and YOU need to do some leveling. Good luck!

09-18-2009, 08:17 AM	#14
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,560 Thanks: 3,178 Thanked 1,097 Times in 790 Posts	Political Climate in NH Is about to change drastically. The heartlless Democrats have put NH in deep dept and wants to sell our state parks to pay for it. The NH voters have had it and will prove it on the next election. That being said the Democrats are pushing 'feel good agendas' such as this bill to assure the public they are not so bad. As a true NH native, I don't like the renroachment of out of staters as they are now telling us what to do. They say it is progress and I, my father and my grandfather say 'Progress? Hell!'. Most of the proponents of the SL are not NH natives. A number of them are not even NH voters! What do they want from us? Leave us alone! If they don't like it here, GO HOME! It's a free country. LIVE LIKE IT! 'Live Free or Die' __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

09-18-2009, 10:13 PM	#27
Rinkerfam Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 268 Thanks: 0 Thanked 14 Times in 8 Posts	Woodsy, when you mention "pre-existing laws" you summed up my argument since day one. I must have been on a different Winnipesaukee than all of the SL supporters this summer. When the weather was nice it was a mad-house out there. (By mad-house I don't mean the number of boats out there or the speeds that they were traveling). I'm sure I wasn't the only boat that had other vessels pass at distances far less than 150'. I'm sure that I wasn't the only boat that had to surrender to a "give-way vessel" numerous times. I'm also sure that I wasn't the only one to be horrified at all the boats traveling through the Governor's/Eagle NWZ just below planing speed creating monster wakes while the MP looked on without care. Maybe the SL supporters are among those who don't know what 150' means. Maybe the SL supporters are among those who don't know who is the "stand-on or give-way vessel" in a given situation. Otherwise it would stand to reason that they would be complaining about those safety concerns as well. I guess as far as the SL supporters are concerned having a boat pass by them at 50' is ok as long as it isn't going more than 45mph. Heck, we could really streamline things by doing away with all of the existing boating laws other than HB 847 since it is apparently the only law we need to be safe. What a fool I am for not realizing this sooner. __________________ Education is hanging around 'til you've caught on - Frost

09-17-2009, 12:11 PM	#1
VitaBene Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 3,551 Thanks: 1,582 Thanked 1,616 Times in 829 Posts	Laconia Daily Sun Letter I picked up the Laconia Daily Sun today and found this letter. Almost none of us want to see return to chaos on the Big Lake To the editor, Once we got past the bad weather of June, it was a wonderful summer for boating and other activities on Lake Winnipesaukee. Surely the safest and most enjoyable in many years. Nobody can sincerely argue otherwise. While one could usually count as many boats on the lake, if not more, it felt much less crowded and safer because civility fi nally reigned. It’s amazing how big a lake can seem when fi lled with boats operating at reasonable speeds. Sailing vessels once again became a common sight. Families in smaller craft going for evening ice creams in their runabouts were back. Kids were being taken water skiing again. Campers were canoeing again in numbers we have not seen for years. Lake Winnipesaukee was once again a place that all could share and enjoy. 45 miles per hour in the daytime and 25 miles per hour in the nighttime proved plenty fast enough for all safe and reasonable boating. AND WE FINALLY HAD A SUMMER WITHOUT A HIGH-SPEED TRAGEDY. No boaters were run over this year, no boats crashed up onto islands, no speeding boats lost control and fl ipped over. But then, isn’t that what most of us expected? The Marine Patrol deserves a heartfelt thank you for their efforts to make the lake a more enjoyable place for all once again. They heard the concerns of the boating masses and responded professionally and effectively. And their efforts really paid off. Our biggest thanks should go to those who formed WinnFABS and made this happen. Using their own funds, this group of local citizens fought on our behalf for several years to fi nally get this law in place against an organized political machine funded by those who profi ted from crowding our lake with over-sized over-fast boats, and who wrongly predicted that our economy would be destroyed by a law that was not needed because “nobody goes that fast anyway” and would just be ignored (Note the contradiction in this statement is not mine). Unfortunately, this most-effective law is only temporary and will soon expire, and we face the possibility of returning to the “get out of my way” boating environment that brought us here unless we can convince our Legislature to make it permanent during the upcoming session. WinnFABS must and will again lead our efforts to make this happen. After writing this letter, I will make a donation to them to do my small part. But this time around promises to be the most expensive, and it is critical that they get as much support as possible. Aside from visiting www.gencourt.state. nh.us/house/members/wml.aspx to fi nd your legislators’ e-mail addresses and writing to them to let them know of your support for a permanent 45 MPH daytime and 25 MPH nighttime speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee, I urge all to go to www.winnfabs. com and make a small contribution to WinnFABS’ upcoming campaign. Almost none of us want to see a return to the chaos that things had been. Lake Winnipesaukee is our lake. It is the gem of NH and the engine of our economy. Let’s keep it the way it was this summer. XXXXXXXXX -end- (I redacted the name and town of origin of the writer, with that exception I have copied and pasted in its entirety) Have we had a high speed tragedy every year??

09-17-2009, 12:18 PM	#2
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Why let FACTS get in the way of a good letter to the editor?

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09-17-2009, 08:21 PM	#8
WeirsBeachBoater Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 709 Blog Entries: 9 Thanks: 39 Thanked 148 Times in 65 Posts	I have tried to stay out of the SL debate for some time now. But I can't sit here tonight and not write this. I spent 4 yrs working against the speed limit. Back when it was grass roots, even before winnfabs was formed etc. I was a member of NHRBA, and quite frankly, the biggest reason the speed limit got through was because too many people sat at their keyboards or at home saying " it will never happen". Guess what.... it did, and it will not go away as long as the majority of the opposition doesn't speak. We were out voiced in Concord, but more importantly we were beat in the MEDIA. They (winnfabs) won, and you know why, they got the non boating public to believe that Winnipesaukee had become more dangerous than the wild west. What really is sickening, is that Winnfabs is really only about a handful of people. If you attended the hearings and the lobbying in Concord it was the same 6-8 people there everytime! They did do a good job of raising money, and they are well funded. But come on, we can sit here for days and kick this around winni.com. But what really needs to happen is a big time push in the Media to prove they are not only Wrong, but lying to the non boating public to instill fear and sway them into calling the reps and senators to keep this law on the books. I will leave you with this, GET INVOLVED, that is the only way it will get defeated. I know that I am done, I gave it all, and have other responsibilities now that keep me from going on with this cause. I hope someone steps up and leads the charge for this next phase. -WBB

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09-17-2009, 09:05 PM	#9
jeffk Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Center Harbor Posts: 1,154 Thanks: 205 Thanked 428 Times in 246 Posts	I have said this before but since it is starting up again: This is not a logical/rational discussion. It is an emotional one. The SL supporters use fear and anger to push their point and gutless politicians respond very well to these tactics. They feel justified bending or making up facts to push their argument. We have gone through all this discussion before. The reasons were NEVER there to support a SL. However the emotion drove it through. The lake has always had a good safety record compared to other bodies of water. Speed has not been a significant contributor to accidents and especially fatal accidents because there haven't been that many and most of them have been swimming or small boat drownings. Other lakes that establish speed limits don't really enforce them. None of it matters as long as the pols respond to the emotions.

09-17-2009, 09:25 PM	#10
pm203 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 225 Thanks: 41 Thanked 86 Times in 46 Posts	What a crock of you know what. The sailboats returned, its safe to go for an ice cream and so on. Looks like the propoganda machine has been fired up once again.

09-17-2009, 09:43 PM	#11
VtSteve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,320 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 230 Thanked 361 Times in 169 Posts	Of course, you are spot on WBB. Well-crafted, and well-distributed lies, are effective. These scare tactics and misstatements sound like politics as usual don't they? Your words ring very true. I just hope everyone remembers this. Always fight lies with fact. If the facts are not available, wait for them, don't make them up. Something Mr. Weeks mama didn't succeed in teaching him. But that's ok, as WBB stated, people can figure it out on their own once presented with it. I think it's high time people like that were forced to answer some questions, publicly. As WBB and others say, call them on it, publicly.

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09-18-2009, 08:44 AM	#15
NoRegrets Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Hudson - NH Posts: 408 Thanks: 233 Thanked 212 Times in 88 Posts	I do not like wasting time on stupid lies that are found in editorial pages but this one struck a nerve and caused me to realize what is going on. To attack the lies with facts did not work combating generalities like safety of fear. There was a lack of leadership tactics surrounding the Speed Limit / Lake issue that led to where we find ourselves today. Here is my observation and opinion on what went wrong in this long political “battle”. It was not lost because we were outspoken or sat at home. It was lost because we did not effectively beat or address the "safety and fear" issue. There was a much more devious game going on and the issue was lost due to an exploitation of a leadership tactic. Leadership on social issues (slightly different than business since they are not measured by gains or losses) has interesting characteristics and if you study effective leaders you can see how they win or loose. A true leader (weather good or bad – Reagan or Hitler) never debates the facts openly. They champion a cause and let the lower levels debate or mute the merits. This is where the media has all power to either report unbiased or win (steal) battles. The leader stays above the fray while the opponents are painted to look like lunatics with details that can be minimized. The masses that don’t seem to care are really the voters that when forced to make a choice tend to side with the leader that has stayed out of the battle but still stays true to the vision (safety and fear). If the leader of one side gets into the fight and cries foul, points out lies, brings details to the debate the voters are turned off. If you apply this process to historical political campaigns you will see how effectively it works until a revolution erupts. If you accept this viewpoint then here is how I beleive it applies to the Speed limit issue: There were 2 sides of the issue leading up to the creation of the law. One side used FEAR and SAFETY while the second group was all about FREEDOM and RIGHTS. To the unaffected masses (voters and lawmakers) we already have speed limits everywhere so that did not seem too resonate with the Freedom and Rights argument. The obvious winner was the SL. Everyone is right on to suggest the Laconia article is totally WRONG but trying to fight it like last time will probably still end up with more restrictions instead of real solutions. The educated people that have suggested we all need to be active in setting the facts straight are great Americans and what makes this country great but we will still need to get the leadership position in place for round 2 of the debate. The SL group is in the driver’s seat leaving the opponents of the SL on the defensive. It is also hard to gain ground when you are on the defense but I know there are many brilliant minds that do not give up and I see obvious leaders and winners in the forum member’s writings. I have not thought about a strategy but using position like: “a resource grab by Greedy Rich Land owners or corrupt big liberal government may be a start. Sorry for the long reply but I think we are on a slippery slope and we need to work more effectively the next time. Have a safe boating weekend all!

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09-18-2009, 08:50 AM	#16
Kracken Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Alton Posts: 223 Thanks: 46 Thanked 130 Times in 50 Posts	NoRegrets, That was perfectly stated, a thanks at the end of your post did not seem sufficient. Thank you.

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09-18-2009, 07:20 PM	#24
Pineedles Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Moultonborough & CT Posts: 2,541 Thanks: 1,071 Thanked 667 Times in 366 Posts	Are you sure?

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09-19-2009, 12:57 AM	#28
KTO Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Meredith, NH Posts: 391 Thanks: 30 Thanked 117 Times in 26 Posts	It's a good thing that letters to the editor are only opinion. Unfortunate that this lacked any fact, though.

09-19-2009, 06:53 AM	#30
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,693 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 992 Times in 723 Posts	This Lake Winnipesaukee forum is really something........one guy writes a well written letter to the editor........normally a letter disappears after one day or so as the old paper gets thrown out. Here on the forum, it gets analyzed, bisected, disected, refuted and discussed for days. It has staying power as it hangs around and hangs around.. Interesting medium.....a high speed internet forum......lol ......and don't forget.....going 45mph in a boat is hardly a slow speed......it is a very fast speed......how fast do you need to go? Never could understand all 'the need for speed' anyway.......a motorboat is a machine....amd for most all boats just going 45mph is very very fast. __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

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09-19-2009, 08:10 AM	#32
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,693 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 992 Times in 723 Posts	,,,here's one way to solve the need for speed...and no offense intended...well. not too much offense anyway......I think you need a smaller boat.....smaller boats get you closer to the water and more in sync with the wind & waves....instead of just powering through the water a smaller boat is a totally different animal. It gets better..... for the very reasonable price of $8500. let me sell you my 18' aluminum cabin cruisr, a 1974 Starcraft Starchief with a somewhat late model Japanese 4-stroke 70hp outboard......the ultimate Lake Winnipesaukee cruiser....and capable of handling any waves, anywhere on the Big Lake. Much better than a 28' Baja 1200hp .....and just $8500 w/ a trailer! Cruise along all day on just six gallons....with a planing speed of maybe 18mph? __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

09-19-2009, 04:03 PM	#36
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	If it's only about politics. And we all know that politics are all about power, money and getting reelected. How do we identify and fund the replacements who might have a more "traditional" and measured approach on the subject of over reaching need for regulation. More logic abuse. If speed limit = fewer boats this year. And Worse world wide economy this year, then is the speed limit the cause of the worse economy? or could the worse economy impact number of boats?

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09-20-2009, 09:30 PM	#45
VtSteve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,320 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 230 Thanked 361 Times in 169 Posts	I'll bet That hardly anyone can answer these questions Feel free to chime in Mr. Weeks 1. How many high-speed accidents/fatalities have there been on Lake Winnipesaukee since 1980? 2. How many fatalities have there been on Lake Winnipesaukee involving kayaks/canoes/small-craft fishing boats? This year alone, the amount of fatalities during early fishing season is astronomical. Perhaps seatbelts in these boats is the answer.

09-21-2009, 07:15 AM	#47
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,693 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 992 Times in 723 Posts	The same letter was in yesterday's Sunday Concord Monitor as a "My Turn" guest opinion. Believe the legislative session runs from January to June, unless a special session gets called for in Sept-Oct-Nov-Dec or something. Doesn't New Hampshire already have a designated go-fast lake.......Lake Winnisquam....which comes fully equipped with the Winnisquam Trading Post.....which has its own dock and sells all the good stuff....beer, ciggies, lottery tickets....and fishing bait.....and a brand new double ramp, freebie state boat launch in Laconia. Why go anywhere else? Go Winnisquam.........understand it has no big bad rocks to mangle the props.....how good is that? And, at 4238 acres it has planty room to run at wide open throttle. __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

09-22-2009, 06:15 PM	#48
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,693 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 992 Times in 723 Posts	Today's Laconia Daily Sun has another well written letter in support of the speed limit titled "The Go-Fast-Be-Loud Brotherhood is plotting a comeback" Different author than the above letter and runs on a similar........chug-chug-chug........ train of thought. ...and the public relations plot twists and turns...... What say you all fast boaters just seek out some local state reps' political support for a high speed Winni venue which could be either a marked off area or a specific time to include the entire lake such as every Friday or something. Like. why not just have Alton Bay legislatively declared to be the designated GO-FAST ZONE. Most all the state reps in Alton are good Republicans who are against any type of regulations, and have accepted contributions from the NH boat marina lobbyist so's just say "let's go to Alton Bay.....and push that throttle ahead to wide open......live free or die......hey..............vroooom vroom Alton Bay!" __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake! Last edited by fatlazyless; 09-22-2009 at 06:55 PM.

09-22-2009, 06:32 PM	#49
OCDACTIVE Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Fort Myers FL / Moultonboro Posts: 1,045 Thanks: 444 Thanked 574 Times in 178 Posts	And it was written by no other then Ed Chase of Meredith. It is actually comical. He is warning the Sun from listening to others that oppose the law. There is so much made up rehtoric I don't even know where to begin....... check it out for yourselves... __________________ Have you had your Vessel Inspected Yet?