Pulled over for speeding...

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

As Winnipesaukee wrote in his original post:

Since the SSN is not a document, can't be lawfully used for identification but is vulnerable to theft, not a good idea to give it to anyone. The line that is particularly bothersome to me is Winnipesaukee was threatened with arrest if he did not devulge his SSN!

Nightwing wrote

If that is their policy it makes no sense to me at all.

If you stop someone for an infraction MPOs don't "run them" for outstanding warrants? I know a lot of cops and that is the first thing they do in a stop. Tell dispatch where they are, what they've stopped and "run them" through the computer.

The question of the use of the SSN as ID aside, what happens if a bad guy decides to pull a gun and send him to Davy Jone's locker? How does the MP even know what they are looking for?

Stop and think about it. MP HQ is in Gilford. The dispatch center usually has only a couple or three people working. Those people deal with the radio, people who come to the door and telephone calls, which can be numerous on a summer day or night.

The department averages close to 100 employees. Suppose 60 officers are on duty, patrolling the many lakes and rivers in NH. Suppose 30 or 40 of them are on a boat stop and calling in requests for record checks. It would be an impossible task for dispatch and the delays in getting people on their way would be unfair to to the public.

Consider too, that the field officers had no radio contact for years due to lack of equipment. The job had to be done with the officer working alone, with backup perhaps an hour away, and no way to contact HQ.

If a bad guy decides to pull a gun...well, that was/is one of the risks of the job, which, until this year, was done by unarmed officers.

Unless the policy has changed, boat stops are not normally called in. If you have further doubts, 293-2037.

[tis]

When we see someone get stopped out here, it seems like they are there are very long time. I think it is just a long process in general. It may be because of the waiting time with dispatch, but whatever, it IS a long time.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by tis

When we see someone get stopped out here, it seems like they are there are very long time. I think it is just a long process in general. It may be because of the waiting time with dispatch, but whatever, it IS a long time.

The paperwork is lengthy.

[winnipesaukeenh]

Originally Posted by tis

When we see someone get stopped out here, it seems like they are there are very long time. I think it is just a long process in general. It may be because of the waiting time with dispatch, but whatever, it IS a long time.

Probably because they have to pull up to the boat, notify dispatch of the stop, inform the person why they are being stopped, gather identification, do the safety inspection, pull away, do the paperwork, come back to the boat, explain the paperwork, etc. I've been stopped at night before and it is a lengthy process. Also, they do call in the stop, or at least at night they do. When we were stopped, the officer called in some information to dispatch (although I couldn't hear exactly what it was...probably the location and description or bow numbers of my boat) Plus it's probably not too easy to be writing on a boat when you're being rocked back and forth.

[NightWing]

Calling in the stop at night (in an area where the radio reaches) is a safety issue, so the dispatcher knows where the stop is made and the bow number of the boat.

The original question arose about personal information being transmitted to obtain records on the operator. Those records are primarily motor vehicle related and not of great value on the water.

[winnipesaukeenh]

Originally Posted by NightWing

Calling in the stop at night (in an area where the radio reaches) is a safety issue, so the dispatcher knows where the stop is made and the bow number of the boat.

The original question arose about personal information being transmitted to obtain records on the operator. Those records are primarily motor vehicle related and not of great value on the water.

I think that it is of great value on the water, because there is information about a persons history that is directly related to boat operation. I was in law enforcement in the past and I can say that it's standard practice to call in someones "information" which consists of their last name, first name and middle initial,as well as DOB. This can allow you to see if someone has a valid driver's license, see what their motor vehicle history is, as well as if they have a criminal history/outstanding warrants (depending on what you ask dispatch for). On the water, i'm assuming that they check for active warrants, or if the operator is under suspension for operating a boat due to a BWI, or other offense which would revoke their boat operating privileges. If for some reason the officer requests a social security number due to lack of identification, they will likely call dispatch via a cell phone and give them the last 4 digits, rather than call it out over open radio.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by winnipesaukeenh

I think that it is of great value on the water, because there is information about a persons history that is directly related to boat operation. I was in law enforcement in the past and I can say that it's standard practice to call in someones "information" which consists of their last name, first name and middle initial,as well as DOB. This can allow you to see if someone has a valid driver's license, see what their motor vehicle history is, as well as if they have a criminal history/outstanding warrants (depending on what you ask dispatch for). On the water, i'm assuming that they check for active warrants, or if the operator is under suspension for operating a boat due to a BWI, or other offense which would revoke their boat operating privileges. If for some reason the officer requests a social security number due to lack of identification, they will likely call dispatch via a cell phone and give them the last 4 digits, rather than call it out over open radio.

You have raised valid points. However, past practice was that the stop stood on its own. The MV record was not to be used to influence the outcome of the stop. Plus, as I previously pointed out, it would be a difficult task for the dispatcher to keep up with and would add to the time of the stop.

Can not checking criminal history allow some bad guys to slip through? No doubt, but the primary purpose of the MP is to enforce boating laws. They do not have the manpower or facilities to cover all possible forms of law enforcement. Should an arrest occur due to BWI, the criminal record check would be obtained once the person was in a secure facility.

Remember that prior to this year, the MP was unarmed, which would pose an extreme risk to the officer if he or she was in an isolated area, out of radio range and came across a boater who had active warrants for violent crime. Attempting to arrest that person could prove deadly.

Yes, having complete information about the boater would have some advantages, but that info is not required to do the task at hand.

[winnipesaukeenh]

Originally Posted by NightWing

You have raised valid points. However, past practice was that the stop stood on its own. The MV record was not to be used to influence the outcome of the stop. Plus, as I previously pointed out, it would be a difficult task for the dispatcher to keep up with and would add to the time of the stop.

Can not checking criminal history allow some bad guys to slip through? No doubt, but the primary purpose of the MP is to enforce boating laws. They do not have the manpower or facilities to cover all possible forms of law enforcement. Should an arrest occur due to BWI, the criminal record check would be obtained once the person was in a secure facility.

Remember that prior to this year, the MP was unarmed, which would pose an extreme risk to the officer if he or she was in an isolated area, out of radio range and came across a boater who had active warrants for violent crime. Attempting to arrest that person could prove deadly.

Yes, having complete information about the boater would have some advantages, but that info is not required to do the task at hand.

Asking for a records check to see if the person is a valid boat operator wouldn't take a lot of time at all. Of course, not every operator that gets pulled over will go through this check, but if need be, MP has the resources to perform this check. To my knowledge, there are by far more day shift officer's throughout the state than there are night shift officer's, so i'm sure that running a quick check on someone wouldn't prove to be inconvenient if the officer is inclined to do so.

Yes, the primary purpose of the MP is to enforce boating laws, but they are also entrusted to enforce state criminal law as well. They are police officers, so they have the rightful authority to enforce any criminal violations along with any boating violations.

I agree that prior to this year, attempting to arrest someone with a violent felony warrant would definitely be a dangerous task, but not everyone that is pulled over gets ran through a criminal history check. As with on the road, if an officer gets any type of inclination that something "isn't right", they are likely to run a criminal history check...same thing on the water, especially now that the entire division is armed.

Nightwing, thanks for your input on this topic. I think that a lot of people don't really understand the operations of the MP aside from enforcing safe passage violations and making sure boats have required safety equipment, so us talking about it here will hopefully give them some insight.

[NightWing]

Originally Posted by winnipesaukeenh

Asking for a records check to see if the person is a valid boat operator wouldn't take a lot of time at all. Of course, not every operator that gets pulled over will go through this check, but if need be, MP has the resources to perform this check. To my knowledge, there are by far more day shift officer's throughout the state than there are night shift officer's, so i'm sure that running a quick check on someone wouldn't prove to be inconvenient if the officer is inclined to do so.

At first blush...that seems plausible but only if the boating certificate information was universally available. Boating Ed is a separate entity from MP. They issue certificates to people who have taken the course through their program. Many other certificates are issued through the Coast Guard and individual states. Some are obtained on line. There is no central database that contains all this information.

Motor Vehicle records are available through the SPOTS network that is tied in with every other state. To my knowledge, boating records are not.

The Boating Education certificate is not a license, is issued just once and does not get points or penalties assessed against it. It is just proof that the holder has passed a course as required by law.

Keep in mind that it is not the officer's responsibility to prove the boater has one, so running a records check, if even possible, would not be necessary.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by NightWing

Should an arrest occur due to BWI, the criminal record check would be obtained once the person was in a secure facility.

Attempting to arrest that person could prove deadly.

If I recall from an old thread,MP does not make arrests.They can hold somebody until the police from the town they happen to be in arrive.

[winnipesaukeenh]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

If I recall from an old thread,MP does not make arrests.They can hold somebody until the police from the town they happen to be in arrive.

That's incorrect. Marine Patrol Officers can make arrests. They are considered police officers under state statute and can arrest violators of boating & criminal laws. Who do you think makes arrests for boating while intoxicated...

[ITD]

LEO: What's your Social Security Number?

ITD: Sorry, I don't remember.

[Winnipesaukee]

MPO: I need your social security number

Winni: *rudely* No you don't. I can give you my name, address, and DOB.


...Oops!

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

MPO: I need your social security number

Winni: *rudely* No you don't. I can give you my name, address, and DOB.


...Oops!

Ha ha, we all have our moments, don't we!!

[VtSteve]

The Privacy Act of 1974 was meant to be a deterrent to using the SSN as a primary ID#. But as we know, government agencies of all kinds are slow to respond to change. As a result of their actions over the years, identity theft has become sport, a profitable sport. It was suggested many times that the SSN number be replaced by some other form of ID, but it has not. But that's a whole nother argument I suppose.

The main thread used to consist of the stop itself. I try to re-read it every time I visit this thread, since it has long since been forgotten.

[VADET]

This may end the whole messy SS# debate.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Crap,
He stole my number.