Ethanol

Rubberguy · 08-20-2009, 04:50 PM

I am a chem major (33 years in industrial chemistry) and must confess I have never encountered a non-aqueous enzyme. At first read, I thought that you can accomplish the same thing with acetone which will disolve water and yet stay in solution in the gasoline. Methyl alcohol does the same thing (dry gas) but is not as efficent. Gums and varnish can also be dissolved using xylene as an additive. Xylene is a bit hard to find, but I believe Home Depot has it near the paint department. Be careful with it though, it will eat paint!

NoBozo · 08-20-2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubberguy

I am a chem major (33 years in industrial chemistry) and must confess I have never encountered a non-aqueous enzyme. At first read, I thought that you can accomplish the same thing with acetone which will disolve water and yet stay in solution in the gasoline. Methyl alcohol does the same thing (dry gas) but is not as efficent. Gums and varnish can also be dissolved using xylene as an additive. Xylene is a bit hard to find, but I believe Home Depot has it near the paint department. Be careful with it though, it will eat paint!

Hi Rubberguy. I just KNEW you were technically informed. I think the screename gave it away. I'm a retired mechanical engineer. I asked you in the "Engine Stalls" Thread what would be a good substitute for Nitrile Rubber in an Ethanol envirnment.

My saved technical data (when I retired) concerning "materials" is almost 30 years old. I used to work in the nuclear industry and "Ethylene Propylene" was the stuff we used for seals in nuclear applications. ...Now we have Ethanol. What do you think?

The other consideration is....what is available to the common man without having to order a minimum 1000 pieces. NB

chipj29 · 08-21-2009, 07:55 AM

My question regarding ethanol is when will manufacturers begin to design engines and components around the use of ethanol? Have they already started? I know that GM has some vehicles that are adaptable up to E-85 I think. Will boat manufacturers do the same?

robmac · 08-21-2009, 09:50 AM

I think the problem with boat manufacturers make that change is need. I travel for a living and overall not much of the country is currently using ethanol enriched fuel. My 02 boat is fuel inj. and have had no problems running the fuel but I also empty the tank prior to winter storage with startron in tank.

BroadHopper · 08-21-2009, 10:05 AM

I have a boat built in 1978. Last year I trailered my boat down to VA for a several weeks while I was on contract work. Because of ethanol I encountered a major problem. According to the marine mechanic, I had a fibreglas tank with a rubber membrane. The ethanol softened the rubber and the rubber was melting. So he says. I had to put in a new metal gas tank. replace all the rubber gas lines, and replace all the gaskets in the carbureator to newer materials. About $4000 later, I am hearing I am still not out of danger? Ethanol breaks down after a month?

Rubberguy. Care to comment on why ethanol is breaking down old rubber?

Or did I get taken by an unscrupulus mechanic?

NoRegrets · 08-21-2009, 10:27 AM

Not a boat but I have a Lexus that was recalled due to the ethanol. There were no plastic or rubber parts involved. I am not a chemist or metallurgist so I can’t offer the quality details that you guys did.

The recall was to replace the 8 fuel rails (there are individual injectors for each cylinder) were made of a metal that could corrode with the ethanol / water properties mix. They were fine with normal gas. Instead of risking a quality problem they replaced all models that had these parts. My car was an early edition of LS460L made for the 2007 model year. Once ethanol was known to Lexus they changed the parts in mid 2007.

Short version of the story – Ethanol can affect some metals and the byproduct of the corrosion may impact the injectors.

Now why did we get this bum product thrust on us?

SIKSUKR · 08-21-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

Now why did we get this bum product thrust on us?

Short answer:Al Gore types

NoRegrets · 08-21-2009, 12:22 PM

Al Gore and the group of greedy rich butchers that cut deep into others wallets for their personal gain. He should have stopped at inventing the internet! My blood pressure and temper boil at the thought of......Wait It Is Friday today. A few more hours and I am going to leave work and go to Winnipesaukee! Ah, now that's a better thought. Back to normal. C. J. Avery's for dinner and cocktails, back onto the boat for the night, Naswa for breakfast......

Have a safe and fun weekend all.

Airwaves · 08-23-2009, 12:55 PM

I was advised this season by a marina owner who carries both Star-Tron and Sta-Bill that the Sta-Bill formulated for ethanol was probably my better choice because I have an older boat (1990) with a metal gas tank. The Sta-Bill is supposed to prevent the reaction that some metals have that NoRegrets described in his Lexus recall.

I used Star-Tron on my outboard and while it got the engine running again with bad gas it didn't run well and still allowed a build up of sludge in the gas tank to the point where I by-passed the inboard tank in favor of portables, not something I want to do at the lake.

The other thing I am doing is keeping the gas tank full full full when I am not going to be using the boat for over a week. Leaves less room for moisture to form.

robmac · 08-23-2009, 03:13 PM

or the other school of thought,the moisture is absorbed by the alchohol it isn't just from condensation because it isn't a sealed but a vented system it will attract the moisture. I keep mt tank empty with seafoam and stabil for ethanol.

Airwaves · 08-23-2009, 04:49 PM

Actually since ethanol became an issue in my neck of the woods a few years ago I was told specifically to avoid any alcohol base gasoline storage treatment entirely!

BroadHopper · 08-23-2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Actually since ethanol became an issue in my neck of the woods a few years ago I was told specifically to avoid any alcohol base gasoline storage treatment entirely!

I look at all gas treatments contents. Mosy of them are alcohol based. Including Seafoam. Stabil and Star-tron are not.

08-20-2009, 04:50 PM	#1
Rubberguy Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Bristol NH and Welch Island Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ethanol I am a chem major (33 years in industrial chemistry) and must confess I have never encountered a non-aqueous enzyme. At first read, I thought that you can accomplish the same thing with acetone which will disolve water and yet stay in solution in the gasoline. Methyl alcohol does the same thing (dry gas) but is not as efficent. Gums and varnish can also be dissolved using xylene as an additive. Xylene is a bit hard to find, but I believe Home Depot has it near the paint department. Be careful with it though, it will eat paint!

08-21-2009, 07:55 AM	#3
chipj29 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bow Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 521 Thanked 308 Times in 162 Posts	My question regarding ethanol is when will manufacturers begin to design engines and components around the use of ethanol? Have they already started? I know that GM has some vehicles that are adaptable up to E-85 I think. Will boat manufacturers do the same? __________________ Getting ready for winter!

08-21-2009, 10:05 AM	#5
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,606 Thanks: 3,238 Thanked 1,113 Times in 799 Posts	1978 boat I have a boat built in 1978. Last year I trailered my boat down to VA for a several weeks while I was on contract work. Because of ethanol I encountered a major problem. According to the marine mechanic, I had a fibreglas tank with a rubber membrane. The ethanol softened the rubber and the rubber was melting. So he says. I had to put in a new metal gas tank. replace all the rubber gas lines, and replace all the gaskets in the carbureator to newer materials. About $4000 later, I am hearing I am still not out of danger? Ethanol breaks down after a month? Rubberguy. Care to comment on why ethanol is breaking down old rubber? Or did I get taken by an unscrupulus mechanic? __________________ Someday may never be an actual day. Last edited by BroadHopper; 08-21-2009 at 11:41 AM. Reason: spelling

08-21-2009, 10:27 AM	#6
NoRegrets Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Hudson - NH Posts: 408 Thanks: 233 Thanked 212 Times in 88 Posts	Ethanol can effect some metals.... Not a boat but I have a Lexus that was recalled due to the ethanol. There were no plastic or rubber parts involved. I am not a chemist or metallurgist so I can’t offer the quality details that you guys did. The recall was to replace the 8 fuel rails (there are individual injectors for each cylinder) were made of a metal that could corrode with the ethanol / water properties mix. They were fine with normal gas. Instead of risking a quality problem they replaced all models that had these parts. My car was an early edition of LS460L made for the 2007 model year. Once ethanol was known to Lexus they changed the parts in mid 2007. Short version of the story – Ethanol can affect some metals and the byproduct of the corrosion may impact the injectors. Now why did we get this bum product thrust on us?

08-23-2009, 04:49 PM	#11
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	No alcohol! Actually since ethanol became an issue in my neck of the woods a few years ago I was told specifically to avoid any alcohol base gasoline storage treatment entirely!

08-21-2009, 09:50 AM	#4
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	I think the problem with boat manufacturers make that change is need. I travel for a living and overall not much of the country is currently using ethanol enriched fuel. My 02 boat is fuel inj. and have had no problems running the fuel but I also empty the tank prior to winter storage with startron in tank.

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to SIKSUKR For This Useful Post:
BroadHopper (08-21-2009), ITD (08-23-2009), NoRegrets (08-21-2009)

08-21-2009, 12:22 PM	#8
NoRegrets Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Hudson - NH Posts: 408 Thanks: 233 Thanked 212 Times in 88 Posts	Al Gore and the group of greedy rich butchers that cut deep into others wallets for their personal gain. He should have stopped at inventing the internet! My blood pressure and temper boil at the thought of......Wait It Is Friday today. A few more hours and I am going to leave work and go to Winnipesaukee! Ah, now that's a better thought. Back to normal. C. J. Avery's for dinner and cocktails, back onto the boat for the night, Naswa for breakfast...... Have a safe and fun weekend all.

The Following User Says Thank You to NoRegrets For This Useful Post:
BroadHopper (08-21-2009)

08-23-2009, 12:55 PM	#9
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	I was advised this season by a marina owner who carries both Star-Tron and Sta-Bill that the Sta-Bill formulated for ethanol was probably my better choice because I have an older boat (1990) with a metal gas tank. The Sta-Bill is supposed to prevent the reaction that some metals have that NoRegrets described in his Lexus recall. I used Star-Tron on my outboard and while it got the engine running again with bad gas it didn't run well and still allowed a build up of sludge in the gas tank to the point where I by-passed the inboard tank in favor of portables, not something I want to do at the lake. The other thing I am doing is keeping the gas tank full full full when I am not going to be using the boat for over a week. Leaves less room for moisture to form.

08-23-2009, 03:13 PM	#10
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	or the other school of thought,the moisture is absorbed by the alchohol it isn't just from condensation because it isn't a sealed but a vented system it will attract the moisture. I keep mt tank empty with seafoam and stabil for ethanol.

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