What Speed Limit ????????

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by elchase

Here is another high speed accident that happened on Winnipesaukee before we had a speed limit;
Laconia Citizen
Laconia, NH
Wednesday, July 21, 2004
Two escape injury after being thrown from boat
By RICH BERGERON
Staff Writer
GILFORD — Two occupants of a boat were thrown from the craft but were unhurt when the boat hit a submerged object and flipped over on Lake Winnipesaukee near Carr Point in Gilford.
According to Marine Patrol officials, the boat being driven by Thomas Madden of Salem was traveling at a high rate of speed when it hit the object and overturned Sunday night. The accident caused both the driver and passenger to be ejected from the boat.
A passing boater arrived on the scene to assist the victims and also helped tow the boat to shore. There were no injuries.

Now someone please tell me how this one is not relevant to a discussion about the need for a speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee (or lack thereof).

How fast was the boat going? What was considered to be a high rate of speed in 2004? And the most important question is this: would a speed limit have prevented this accident?

Originally Posted by chipj29

How fast was the boat going?

Way too fast. You guys say 60 is slow enough to ensure that stuff like this can't happen, so I guess that suggests he was going way over 60. You tell me.

Originally Posted by chipj29

What was considered to be a high rate of speed in 2004?

Even if the lake was more crowded today than in 2004 (the only thing I can think of that would change the definition of "too fast") I think an impartial viewer of even minimal intelligence would conclude that he was going at a speed that would be too fast in any year.

Originally Posted by chipj29

And the most important question is this: would a speed limit have prevented this accident?

No, the most important question (in my opinion) is this: would a speed limit have been more likely to reduce or increase the chances of such accidents on our lake?
Remember, there was not a single accident on Lake Winnipesaukee last summer that anyone can say even might have been caused in whole or in part by excessive speed. So the SL is batting 1000 so far. It is not going to stop all speeding or eliminate all accidents, but it is surely not going to increase either.


Here's a bass boat going too fast and crashing; http://www.break.com/index/painful-bass-boat-crash.html
It does not tell us his exact speed, his age, or whether he had his mother's permission, but impartial viewers of the video can draw their own conclusions about whether he was speeding and whether things like this are more or less likely to happen on a lake with a 45MPH speed limit.
While some will say "he was violating the safe passage law anyway", as if that forgives his speed, we used to see the bass boats fly by in such proximity to each other at such speeds every time one of the tourneys started. This summer I'd see them go by in the same tight groupings, but much slower. It is my opinion (might not be yours) that these two boats in the video would not have been flying around filming each other at such high speeds in the first place on a lake with a 45 MPH speed limit, and that this is therefore another accident that our speed limit would have prevented from happening on Winnipesaukee.
Please don't respond with questions to me about the video. It speaks for itself. My posting is moderated and my opportunities to answer are limited. And please don't respond with insults. If you want to avoid the bickering as you all claim, just reply with statements telling us why you think this is more or less likely to happen on a lake with a 45MPH speed limit.

[Kracken]

ED, The operator was breaking at least 4 laws before the crash. Why would a 5th law change the outcome?

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Kracken

ED, The operator was breaking at least 4 laws before the crash. Why would a 5th law change the outcome?

This is what I have been saying all along. Where is the improved safety? why would one more law have changed either of the tragic accidents that the SL supporters continously use as examples? It doesn't make sense just to add another law on top of multiple other laws that are being broken.

[DEJ]

Remember, there was not a single accident on Lake Winnipesaukee last summer that anyone can say even might have been caused in whole or in part by excessive speed.

I guess you forgot about the Treasure Island accident, clear case of excessive speed.

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by DEJ

I guess you forgot about the Treasure Island accident, clear case of excessive speed.

Treasure Island...!? Which one was that?

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

Treasure Island...!? Which one was that?

Haven't seen an update as of yet.

"According to a Marine Patrol report, the two were were in a boat being piloted by Robin Pyburn, 50, of Alton, that was attempting to return to the West Alton Marina. Those onboard apparently became disoriented in the dark and spent several hours trying to find the marina. At about 8:15 p.m., the boat traveled inside a buoy and became grounded on the rocks it hit. Sapier and and Panella were thrown forward at impact, when the sustained their non-life threatening injuries. The Alton Fire Boat responded to a subsequent 911 call and transported everyone to shore. Treasure Island — also known as Redhead Island— is a small island located just east of Sleepers Island.

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/Lacon...2009/10/8L.pdf "

So imagine this, a smaller boat was traveling around for "several hours" , become disoriented, then went aground at 8:25 PM. At the very least, it's a good example of not knowing where you are and poor navigation. They probably should have been going slower due to their Disorientation, but given the injuries, they probably weren't going that fast. If they had been traveling around for hours, it would have been daylight for most of their cruise. So if they were disoriented, it surely wasn't caused by darkness.

Some people didn't like this accident, because it looked like operator error in navigation, and it wasn't a GFBL boat.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Some people didn't like this accident, because it looked like operator error in navigation, and it wasn't a GFBL boat.

I don't think it matters to the SL supporters. Any accident is a speed accident.

[hazelnut]

Has any one of the SL supporters ever answered the question as to why Marine Patrol (ya know the guys on the front line) have generally not supported the measure.

I bring this up because my Brother-In-Law took the class this past summer and he told me that his instructor, a veteran of the force, said the Speed Limit Law was a joke.

So what is the spin? Why would the guys and gals who enforce it also "roll their eyes" at the law? Wouldn't you consider their opinion higher than any one of us?

Just curious?

[Kracken]

Hazelnut,

I don’t know why this is so difficult to understand.

The Winnfabs and supporters are far more knowledgeable of water safety, boating, accident reconstruction and statistical analysis than the New Hampshire Marine Patrol and the Coast Guard.

It’s just like politicians knowing more about healthcare than doctors and community organizers understanding warfare better than generals.

Come on Hazelnut, quit thinking like a scofflaw cowboy and get with the program.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Has any one of the SL supporters ever answered the question as to why Marine Patrol (ya know the guys on the front line) have generally not supported the measure.

I bring this up because my Brother-In-Law took the class this past summer and he told me that his instructor, a veteran of the force, said the Speed Limit Law was a joke.

So what is the spin? Why would the guys and gals who enforce it also "roll their eyes" at the law? Wouldn't you consider their opinion higher than any one of us?

Just curious?

Your experience is different from mine. I have spoken with Marine Patrol officers that were in favor of a SL. Also one of the legislators that gave heavy support to the SL is a former Marine Patrol Officer.

Sometimes the answer you get is the one you are looking for.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Your experience is different from mine. I have spoken with Marine Patrol officers that were in favor of a SL. Also one of the legislators that gave heavy support to the SL is a former Marine Patrol Officer.

Sometimes the answer you get is the one you are looking for.

Welcome back BI, haven't seen you around for awhile...

I have the opposite. I spoke to 9 different MP officers over the course of last year. In each situation they said they did not support it and one said it can't be enforced. (everything was off the record of course)

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Welcome back BI, haven't seen you around for awhile...

I have the opposite. I spoke to 9 different MP officers over the course of last year. In each situation they said they did not support it and one said it can't be enforced. (everything was off the record of course)

How about an 'on the record' quote from the Director of the Division of Safety Services.

Barrett said that, from the experience from the pilot program Marine Patrol implemented last summer, there is not a large number of boats that exceeded the speed limit.

"I don't think that the fact that it's now in effect is going to make any monster change," said Barrett.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Welcome back BI, haven't seen you around for awhile...

I have the opposite. I spoke to 9 different MP officers over the course of last year. In each situation they said they did not support it and one said it can't be enforced. (everything was off the record of course)

I was off trekking the Inca trail to Machu Picchu in Peru. I even swam in a glacial lake at 14,000 feet. Lots of fun, the Andes are awesome!

I will not agree that a SL can't be enforced. However even if true it doesn't change anything. We have lots of laws that can't be enforced. Laws are a social mediator of relations between people. A socially agreed upon standard of behavior.

There are many laws that carry no penalty, they exist to draw a line of public morality, that a responsible citizen should not cross. Most of us will obey the law even if the chances of being caught and punished are zero.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I will not agree that a SL can't be enforced. However even if true it doesn't change anything. We have lots of laws that can't be enforced. Laws are a social mediator of relations between people. A socially agreed upon standard of behavior.

There are many laws that carry no penalty, they exist to draw a line of public morality, that a responsible citizen should not cross. Most of us will obey the law even if the chances of being caught and punished are zero.

Even the experts who stated the following "Barrett said that, from the experience from the pilot program Marine Patrol implemented last summer, there is not a large number of boats that exceeded the speed limit.

"I don't think that the fact that it's now in effect is going to make any monster change," said Barrett".

So in summary you see a need for a law that is not necessary according to the experts?

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I was off trekking the Inca trail to Machu Picchu in Peru. I even swam in a glacial lake at 14,000 feet. Lots of fun, the Andes are awesome!

I will not agree that a SL can't be enforced. However even if true it doesn't change anything. We have lots of laws that can't be enforced. Laws are a social mediator of relations between people. A socially agreed upon standard of behavior.

There are many laws that carry no penalty, they exist to draw a line of public morality, that a responsible citizen should not cross. Most of us will obey the law even if the chances of being caught and punished are zero.

Glad to see you back as well. Although we don't see eye to eye on the SL debate, I do enjoy your lucid posts on the subject.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I was off trekking the Inca trail to Machu Picchu in Peru. I even swam in a glacial lake at 14,000 feet. Lots of fun, the Andes are awesome!

I will not agree that a SL can't be enforced. However even if true it doesn't change anything. We have lots of laws that can't be enforced. Laws are a social mediator of relations between people. A socially agreed upon standard of behavior.

There are many laws that carry no penalty, they exist to draw a line of public morality, that a responsible citizen should not cross. Most of us will obey the law even if the chances of being caught and punished are zero.

Wow.. SL supporters please pay attention to BI.. his posts are very intuitive.... Although I totally disagree... His points are very well thought out.

I feel if a law can not be enforced or if it is not payed attention to it shouldn't be on the books because it is not working. It is simply another law that stretches the enforcement budget. Not another tool to keep the lake safe. The more laws the bigger the governement, the bigger the government the less freedoms for its citizens. Not what the framers had in mind. I realize this is very general but it is at the heart of my personal ideologies.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I was off trekking the Inca trail to Machu Picchu in Peru. I even swam in a glacial lake at 14,000 feet. Lots of fun, the Andes are awesome!

I will not agree that a SL can't be enforced. However even if true it doesn't change anything. We have lots of laws that can't be enforced. Laws are a social mediator of relations between people. A socially agreed upon standard of behavior.

There are many laws that carry no penalty, they exist to draw a line of public morality, that a responsible citizen should not cross. Most of us will obey the law even if the chances of being caught and punished are zero.

If possible would love to see / hear more about the latest adventure!!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

If possible would love to see / hear more about the latest adventure!!

If you go to www.icetent.com you can then click on "Machu Pichu" or "My Blog" for photos and descriptions.

[VtSteve]

I always enjoy it when other people can live life to the fullest, and just do it. Congrats BI.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

If you go to www.icetent.com you can then click on "Machu Pichu" or "My Blog" for photos and descriptions.

Have you ever thought of trying out for "The Amazing Race?"

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Have you ever thought of trying out for "The Amazing Race?"

Survivor is my show. Amazing race is all about who gets the cab driver that speaks English. Besides you need a partner, and no way my wife is doing that.

On December 7th I will be sitting in my rocket in the Mojave desert. No flying, just publicity, but it might make the local news.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I was off trekking the Inca trail to Machu Picchu in Peru. I even swam in a glacial lake at 14,000 feet. Lots of fun, the Andes are awesome!

Wish I had the opportunity to join you. Full of history in that area!

Some of my retirement dream is to trek the Appalachian from Georgia to Maine, The Sierra trail from Arizona to British Columbia, as well as cruise the intercoastal from Maine to Key West. But treking the Inca trail tops them all.

Glad you had a great time and that you are back safe.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Sometimes the answer you get is the one you are looking for.

Exactly. Same applies for a state wide poll.

Can someone tell me how to post a screen shot of that post on OffshoreOnly from a while back where a longtime member and avid high-speeder had an epiphany and gave over 60 links to other OSO threads about then-recent high-speed accidents and eulogized about all of the members who had been killed?
The post used to be at http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/g...awakening.html, but it and all of the linked reports were deleted soon after it was posted and the poster was soundly reprimanded by his buddies for "admitting the dangers of high-speed boating to our enemies" and "giving ammunition to the gray hairs". I have a jpg but don't know how to post it.
The message says;
"In light of the few tragic accidents in the past few days and weeks, I started thinking back to how many unfortunate incidents I've been saddened by in my 4 years on OSO. I started digging through old threads and I was amazed how many hispahs have happened in a few short years to many of our family and friends. I found more than I could have imagined...It's far too heartbreaking reading all these stories, it would be prudent of all of us to take every possible precaution, so that we don't have to read any more accident reports. Let this be a reminder of how fragile we all are, and how quickly the one thing we all love and enjoy can come back and harm us in no more than a heartbeat."
He then goes on with a huge list of links to threads about high-speed boating accidents that other OSO members had had, MOST of them involving fatalities.
Of course, the only relevance this all has to the benefits of keeping the speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee is that all those othe accidents "happened on water."

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by elchase

Can someone tell me how to post a screen shot of that post on OffshoreOnly from a while back where a longtime member and avid high-speeder had an epiphany and gave over 60 links to other OSO threads about then-recent high-speed accidents and eulogized about all of the members who had been killed?
The post used to be at http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/g...awakening.html, but it and all of the linked reports were deleted soon after it was posted and the poster was soundly reprimanded by his buddies for "admitting the dangers of high-speed boating to our enemies" and "giving ammunition to the gray hairs". I have a jpg but don't know how to post it.
He then goes on with a huge list of links to threads about high-speed boating accidents that other OSO members had had, MOST of them involving fatalities.
Of course, the only relevance this all has to the benefits of keeping the speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee is that all those othe accidents "happened on water."

I'm sure it's a really robust collection of accidents. Keeping relevance in mind, if you could just narrow it down to the accidents that happened on Winni, it will save us cowboys a LOT of time. Thanks in advance!

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Ryan

I'm sure it's a really robust collection of accidents. Keeping relevance in mind, if you could just narrow it down to the accidents that happened on Winni, it will save us cowboys a LOT of time. Thanks in advance!

oh my... i see from your quote of EL we are over in OSO now...

El just razzing.... but have you tried posting there? Might not be as welcoming. LOL...

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

oh my... i see from your quote of EL we are over in OSO now...

El just razzing.... but have you tried posting there? Might not be as welcoming. LOL...

Like everywhere else, there's a variety over there as well. People with a knee-jerk reaction to anything they don't like, and those that actually have some responsibility. There's a lot of great boaters over on that site, including people from waaaaay back in the boating days. El should spend some time looming at a certain poster's posts to see who's a leader and who's not. PS: safety isn't something that comes into play at a certain boat length or horsepower.

[ishoot308]

"PS: safety isn't something that comes into play at a certain boat length or horsepower."

VTSTEVE;

I think that is one of the smartest comments I have heard regarding the S/L debate!

Dan

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Your experience is different from mine. I have spoken with Marine Patrol officers that were in favor of a SL. Also one of the legislators that gave heavy support to the SL is a former Marine Patrol Officer.

Sometimes the answer you get is the one you are looking for.

I see it from 2 sides:

1) MP would like it to give them another reason to pull you over- to check if you have been drinking too much, safety check, certicate check.

2) On the other hand they know it is difficult to accurately measure on water. What degree of wiggle room do you apply as an MPO? On 93 I figure I am generally OK at 73/74, will it be 50/30 on water?

Anyhow, I vow to be more civil as well. And apologize for escalating and or starting trouble especially with YS. I pushed my internet rule beyond the boundary I set for forum behavior-"only say here what you would in person"

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Your experience is different from mine. I have spoken with Marine Patrol officers that were in favor of a SL. Also one of the legislators that gave heavy support to the SL is a former Marine Patrol Officer.

Sometimes the answer you get is the one you are looking for.

Ok point made. I just thought Barrett had gone off the record so to speak as opposed to the law. The instructor, a veteran, that my bro-in law had this summer was emphatic in his disdain with regard to the law. Could be a case of it's all in who you talk to.

Welcome back.

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Haven't seen an update as of yet.

"According to a Marine Patrol report, the two were were in a boat being piloted by Robin Pyburn, 50, of Alton, that was attempting to return to the West Alton Marina. Those onboard apparently became disoriented in the dark and spent several hours trying to find the marina. At about 8:15 p.m., the boat traveled inside a buoy and became grounded on the rocks it hit. Sapier and and Panella were thrown forward at impact, when the sustained their non-life threatening injuries. The Alton Fire Boat responded to a subsequent 911 call and transported everyone to shore. Treasure Island — also known as Redhead Island— is a small island located just east of Sleepers Island.

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/Lacon...2009/10/8L.pdf "

So imagine this, a smaller boat was traveling around for "several hours" , become disoriented, then went aground at 8:25 PM. At the very least, it's a good example of not knowing where you are and poor navigation. They probably should have been going slower due to their Disorientation, but given the injuries, they probably weren't going that fast. If they had been traveling around for hours, it would have been daylight for most of their cruise. So if they were disoriented, it surely wasn't caused by darkness.

Some people didn't like this accident, because it looked like operator error in navigation, and it wasn't a GFBL boat.

YES! Now I remember - CLEAR case of excessive speed!

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by Kracken

ED, The operator was breaking at least 4 laws before the crash. Why would a 5th law change the outcome?

Because he might have been going slower?Sure glad it's illegal for a guy like that to go faster than 45 MPH on our lake. And jeez, the noise those things make. Just one more thing contributing to Winnipesaukee's bad rep, IMHO.

[Kracken]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Because he might have been going slower?

You are joking right?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Kracken

"...The operator was breaking at least 4 laws before the crash..."

Those laws—if ably prosecuted—could lead to a Felony conviction in CRIMINAL Court.

Originally Posted by Kracken

"...Why would a 5th law change the outcome...?"

The "5th law" anticipates a possible stressful and expensive conviction for a Felony.

The Speed Limits law is exercised in CIVIL Court, where there are no CRIMINAL repercussions on one's CRIMINAL record.

(There is only the usual mailed-in fine, and points on one's record—where states have "reciprocity" with New Hampshire).

A "summons" received by the offender alerts that boater to the watery misbehaviors/hazards already addressed by those time-tested Coast Guard rules.

Can anyone remember all those maritime rules?

Has anyone forgotten that there is a Speed Limit on Winnipesaukee?

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Has anyone forgotten that there is a Speed Limit on Winnipesaukee?

There has been a speed limit for many years on every NH lake.

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by DEJ

There has been a speed limit for many years on every NH lake.

Day and night?

They think this cabin cruiser was sitting still when it was shattered by a "speeding in the dark" 45-ft Sonic "c-boat" (can't spell out what type of boat it was) and almost cut in half, so the Coast Guard counted these SIX FATALITIES in the 0-10MPH category. Since none of the "c-boat" occupants were killed, and we don't know their exact speed anyway (they could not estimate from the wreckage and he would not admit)...there is no inclusion in any of the CG's high-speed categories of any of these deaths, and "high speed" is not even listed as a factor.
Why again can't accidents like this happen on Winnipesaukee if we end the Speed Limit? We do have both of these types of boats here and our "c-boat" drivers insist that they will return to going as fast as they can at night here again once they get rid of that darned SL;
http://www.rbbi.com/folders/acc/ftla...laud2.htm#usa1
Note that the "c-boat" owner lived to kill another day (live free or die).

[DEJ]

Yes day and night.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by APS

The Speed Limits law is exercised in CIVIL Court, where there are no CRIMINAL repercussions on one's CRIMINAL record.

(There is only the usual mailed-in fine, and points on one's record—where states have "reciprocity" with New Hampshire).

Actually, the RSA provides the following penalty for violation of the section, no mention of any fines (mailed-in or otherwise) so it will involve court time!

XI. Any conviction under this section shall be reported to the commissioner of the department of safety, division of motor vehicles, and shall become a part of the motor vehicle driving record of the person convicted.

[Gavia immer]

45/25?

Do we each have a Blackberry? LOL.......

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by elchase

They think this cabin cruiser was sitting still when it was shattered by a "speeding in the dark" 45-ft Sonic "c-boat" (can't spell out what type of boat it was) and almost cut in half, so the Coast Guard counted these SIX FATALITIES in the 0-10MPH category. Since none of the "c-boat" occupants were killed, and we don't know their exact speed anyway (they could not estimate from the wreckage and he would not admit)...there is no inclusion in any of the CG's high-speed categories of any of these deaths, and "high speed" is not even listed as a factor.
Why again can't accidents like this happen on Winnipesaukee if we end the Speed Limit? We do have both of these types of boats here and our "c-boat" drivers insist that they will return to going as fast as they can at night here again once they get rid of that darned SL;
http://www.rbbi.com/folders/acc/ftla...laud2.htm#usa1
Note that the "c-boat" owner lived to kill another day (live free or die).

Can't quite see the relevance here EL to Winnipesaukee and our SL:
1) The accident happened in Florida.
2) Alcohol was involved.
3) The accident occurred in November; there is minimal boating activity on Lake Winnipesaukee at that time of year.
4) The accident happened on salt water which has a higher density and more buoyancy than fresh water.
5) There are alligators in Florida and none in New Hampshire.

[Airwaves]

Sunset posted:

Can't quite see the relevance here EL to Winnipesaukee and our SL:
1) The accident happened in Florida.
2) Alcohol was involved.
3) The accident occurred in November; there is minimal boating activity on Lake Winnipesaukee at that time of year.
4) The accident happened on salt water which has a higher density and more buoyancy than fresh water.
5) There are alligators in Florida and none in New Hampshire.

1) No safe passage law in Florida
2) In 1997 no boater education was required in Florida
3) The accident occured in November...12 years ago!
4) The United State Coast Guard and New Hampshire Marine Patrol list NH as the safest state in which to boat in New England and in the top 4 in the United States of America before the silly speed limits law went into effect but after mandatory education!
5) Boating safety has improved by leaps and bounds in the past dozen years mostly because of boater education!

Posted by Elchase:

Note that the "c-boat" owner lived to kill another day (live free or die).

The operator that was boating drunk was convicted of 6 counts DUI manslaughter and sentenced to 85 years in prison! At least according to the link that you provided.

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Can't quite see the relevance here EL to Winnipesaukee and our SL:
1) The accident happened in Florida.
2) Alcohol was involved.
3) The accident occurred in November; there is minimal boating activity on Lake Winnipesaukee at that time of year.
4) The accident happened on salt water which has a higher density and more buoyancy than fresh water.
5) There are alligators in Florida and none in New Hampshire.

Sunset,
I'm finally starting to understand the argument about drinking as an excuse for speeding. It's not a question of danger, its a question of blame. You see, if you are drunk, then you aren't really responsible for what you do. So if you fly around in your boat while drunk and run over another boat and kill someone, or run your boat up onto their shore front and kill one of your passengers, it's obviously dangerous, but is not really your fault. The fault then falls to the manufacturer of your GPS or the owner of the hotel next to the place where you got drunk, unless the hotel is on the list of businesses that did not support the speed limit. The logic is tough to understand at first, but if you have a few drinks in you it all starts to make sense.
We've all heard over and over again in these threads how it was really the owner of Church Landing who is at fault for Mr. Hartman's death because he leased to the restaurant who hired the bartender who served Mr. Littlefield some of his drinks, and because Church Landing is on the list of businesses that supported the speed limit. But Naswa is ok to liquor up its boating patrons all day long, and the Wolfetrap is never held to account for over serving boaters, because these businesses opposed the speed limit. Get it? Church Landing killed Mr. Hartman, but Wolfetrap did not kill Ms. Beaudoin. Confused? Just have another drink before you try to make sense of all this.

[NoRegrets]

I am still puzzled by the postings of historical accidents in all the different threads posted by one forum member. It seems that the only thing that would make sense would be to eliminate all boats that have the potential for killing. I find the logic of these posting of no value unless one plans to never venture out on the water. Is it a possible attempt to goad others into mean spirited interactions and get another thread closed?

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by elchase

Sunset,
I'm finally starting to understand the argument about drinking as an excuse for speeding. It's not a question of danger, its a question of blame. You see, if you are drunk, then you aren't really responsible for what you do. So if you fly around in your boat while drunk and run over another boat and kill someone, or run your boat up onto their shore front and kill one of your passengers, it's obviously dangerous, but is not really your fault. The fault then falls to the manufacturer of your GPS or the owner of the hotel next to the place where you got drunk, unless the hotel is on the list of businesses that did not support the speed limit. The logic is tough to understand at first, but if you have a few drinks in you it all starts to make sense.
We've all heard over and over again in these threads how it was really the owner of Church Landing who is at fault for Mr. Hartman's death because he leased to the restaurant who hired the bartender who served Mr. Littlefield some of his drinks, and because Church Landing is on the list of businesses that supported the speed limit. But Naswa is ok to liquor up its boating patrons all day long, and the Wolfetrap is never held to account for over serving boaters, because these businesses opposed the speed limit. Get it? Church Landing killed Mr. Hartman, but Wolfetrap did not kill Ms. Beaudoin. Confused? Just have another drink before you try to make sense of all this.

EL,
Now I'm really getting confused. Airwaves says your Florida example has no relevance in part because boater education has now made boating safer but what if a boater on Lake Winnipesaukee who may have been drinking is also a graduate of a boater safety course (think Erica Blizzard)? Does that mean that boater safety courses are irrelevant because drunks may forget what they learned in the course? And what if they borrowed the boat without permission and are the graduates of such a course and do they teach you in the course that you shouldn't take out someone's boat without permission? But are you less responsable for taking the boat if you've been drinking? How about if the bartender who served excessive amounts of alcohol is also a graduate of a boater education course? Does that make it better or worse? What if the bartender is for or against the SL? What if the bartender is from another state like Florida, then does it negate the whole argument? Please get back to me with the answers before next summer.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

EL,
Now I'm really getting confused. Airwaves says your Florida example has no relevance in part because boater education has now made boating safer but what if a boater on Lake Winnipesaukee who may have been drinking is also a graduate of a boater safety course (think Erica Blizzard)? Does that mean that boater safety courses are irrelevant because drunks may forget what they learned in the course? And what if they borrowed the boat without permission and are the graduates of such a course and do they teach you in the course that you shouldn't take out someone's boat without permission? But are you less responsable for taking the boat if you've been drinking? How about if the bartender who served excessive amounts of alcohol is also a graduate of a boater education course? Does that make it better or worse? What if the bartender is for or against the SL? What if the bartender is from another state like Florida, then does it negate the whole argument? Please get back to me with the answers before next summer.

More smoke and more spin!!

Come on folks! Now you are even making yourselves dizzy!

The point you folks are pretending to miss, by the way I seriously doubt you are missing anything, is that the laws that were in place before the SL were being broken, or would have been broken if the incidents actually happened in NH, by most of the operators responsible for the incidents you bring forward. Therefore, what is the real value in adding another law, other than to push a certain group of boaters off the lake? That is your real agenda now isn't it.

Facts are, if the boating public became more aware of the laws effective in 2008 and if MP had more resources to enforce these well thought out laws, the lake would be a better place.

I realize that as long as Fast Boats are on the lake, you and your buddies will not be satisfied. Therefore, we continue to get barraged with your smoke and mirror campaign.

R2B (Proud owner of a bow rider, top end 44 mph)

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Here's the real relevance Sunset, be sgure to wipe the smirk off your face after reading

"Six die in Broward Intracoastal boat collision

Ft Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel
25 November 1997
FORT LAUDERDALE - Six people were killed and two injured late Monday when a Cigarette-style boat slammed into a smaller boat from behind on the Intracoastal Waterway just south of the Sunrise Boulevard bridge.
A 45-foot Cigarette-type named "Merrymaker" was traveling north, "apparently at a high rate of speed," about 11:25 p.m. when it struck a 31-foot cabin cruiser named "Bill it" from behind, cutting it in half and killing all six people on board. Authorities have not determined the speed of the larger boat, but the speed limit is 25 mph in that area of the waterway.
"It was a gory scene," said Fort Lauderdale Fire Battalion Chief Tom Fredricks.

The speedboat continued north, striking a dock about a block north, then came to a stop in the water.
"

The next time you have a smart remark to make, better finish reading first. Same goes to El. Real boaters have no use for such rubbish.

Wait a second...are you saying that there was indeed a speed limit in place at the time of that accident? And are you also saying that the speed limit failed to save the lives of those 6 innocent people? How can that be? The speed limit is about safety! It is supposed to protect us all!

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Wait a second...are you saying that there was indeed a speed limit in place at the time of that accident? And are you also saying that the speed limit failed to save the lives of those 6 innocent people? How can that be? The speed limit is about safety! It is supposed to protect us all!

So what you're saying is someone broke the Speed Limit law and in fact the Speed Limit Law in place did not work to prevent this tragedy. But I was told by the people on this message board that it was the security blanket we all needed. I am so confused right now.

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Wait a second...are you saying that there was indeed a speed limit in place at the time of that accident? And are you also saying that the speed limit failed to save the lives of those 6 innocent people? How can that be? The speed limit is about safety! It is supposed to protect us all!

Thanks chipj29 for finally making it clear that Cigarette style boats do not belong on Lake Winnibesaukee. The article that VtSteve posted makes it clear that even though a speed limit was in effect those cowboys could have cared less and proved it by killing six innocent people.
Lets not have a speed limit on Lake Winnibesaukee but instead lets ban all Cigarette style boats because it is clear now that the law doesn’t make a difference to these people.
Thanks again chipj29 for making me understand exactly what VtSteve was trying to tell us. Good job, now I can show this to the lawmakers in Concord to help them understand what is really wrong with our boating laws.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

Thanks chipj29 for finally making it clear that Cigarette style boats do not belong on Lake Winnibesaukee. The article that VtSteve posted makes it clear that even though a speed limit was in effect those cowboys could have cared less and proved it by killing six innocent people.
Lets not have a speed limit on Lake Winnibesaukee but instead lets ban all Cigarette style boats because it is clear now that the law doesn’t make a difference to these people.
Thanks again chipj29 for making me understand exactly what VtSteve was trying to tell us. Good job, now I can show this to the lawmakers in Concord to help them understand what is really wrong with our boating laws.

Sam, The state can regulate speed limits, however, don't you think it a real slippery slope when they start regulating the types of boats that would be allowed on the lake?

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

Thanks chipj29 for finally making it clear that Cigarette style boats do not belong on Lake Winnibesaukee. The article that VtSteve posted makes it clear that even though a speed limit was in effect those cowboys could have cared less and proved it by killing six innocent people.
Lets not have a speed limit on Lake Winnibesaukee but instead lets ban all Cigarette style boats because it is clear now that the law doesn’t make a difference to these people.
Thanks again chipj29 for making me understand exactly what VtSteve was trying to tell us. Good job, now I can show this to the lawmakers in Concord to help them understand what is really wrong with our boating laws.

If the goal was to ban cigarette style boats from Lake Winni, then why wasn't that proposed? Why was that hidden under a veil of a speed limit?

Class warfare at its finest.

I will state it once again. Lake Winni (as with all publicly owned bodies of water in NH) is owned by each and every one of us. Each of us has the right to use the water however we please, as long as it is within the law.

[Kracken]

APS

Isn’t reckless boating a felony?

I believe speeding is not a felony unless it is classified as “reckless”.

Please correct me if I am mistaken.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Class warfare at its finest.

OK,quick question, and I'm serious. What class is it that has $200K plus GFBL boats and what class is it that wants a speed limit? (My boat is 14' with a 15 HP outboard)

[OCDACTIVE]

hey sunset.. Good to see you...... (seriously)...you are one of the SL supporters that are actually here to debate without attacking everyone.

I have a question for you... Where did people get the alusion that GFB's all cost $200K and every owner has to have tons of $$$ or a trust fund?

I have been to the boat shows and seen Sailboats that cost way more then GFB. Mine cost nothing close to that. Given it was a lot closer when it was new but I wouldn't have been able to afford it....

What I am driving at is I believe there is an untrue stereo type that all GFBs and owners cost a huge amount of money or the person has huge amounts.... This just simply is not the case.

It would be like me saying that all party boaters don't have much $ because they cost less then fiberglass boats..

Just a point I was wondering if you could clairify for me.

Thanks...

PS. hope all is well.. Been off the forum for sometime.. busy weekend.. was at the Patriots game yesterday.. Great great time.. Beautiful weather as well. If I wasn't there it would have been a terrific day to go bombing down the broads.. J/K.... little razzing...

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

PS. hope all is well.. Been off the forum for sometime.. busy weekend.. was at the Patriots game yesterday.. Great great time.. Beautiful weather as well.

I was there as well. What a great day!

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

hey sunset.. Good to see you...... (seriously)...you are one of the SL supporters that are actually here to debate without attacking everyone.

I have a question for you... Where did people get the alusion that GFB's all cost $200K and every owner has to have tons of $$$ or a trust fund?

I have been to the boat shows and seen Sailboats that cost way more then GFB. Mine cost nothing close to that. Given it was a lot closer when it was new but I wouldn't have been able to afford it....

What I am driving at is I believe there is an untrue stereo type that all GFBs and owners cost a huge amount of money or the person has huge amounts.... This just simply is not the case.

It would be like me saying that all party boaters don't have much $ because they cost less then fiberglass boats..

Just a point I was wondering if you could clairify for me.

Thanks...

PS. hope all is well.. Been off the forum for sometime.. busy weekend.. was at the Patriots game yesterday.. Great great time.. Beautiful weather as well. If I wasn't there it would have been a terrific day to go bombing down the broads.. J/K.... little razzing...

Hello...no you're right and I agree with your point. I just wanted to encourage people to be aware that the incomes of both SL supporters and opposers seem to vary considerably from the highs to the lows. I just hate to see the discussions turn into a class warfare issue because I don't believe it is such.
Glad you had good weather for the Pat's win. Looks like this week will be pretty good too...sunset

[Kracken]

Most of the “cowboys” are agreeable to a compromise. It has become clear that unlimited speeds on Lake Winnipesaukee are a thing of the past. The problem most boaters have with the 45/25 limit is it appears to be an arbitrary figure without supporting data. The limits were never debated, there wasn’t a compromise it was simply stated in a bill and adopted.

What we don’t want or need is a myriad of laws that sterilize every part of our lives. We don’t need warning signs on every product. We don’t need to tax sugary snacks and drinks to deter consumption. We don’t need every corner to be rounded and padded. We are heading down a path where everybody will be wearing helmets and water wings 24/7.

Years ago a national highway speed limit was adopted because it was determined that fuel consumption when up drastically when automobiles exceeded 55mph. during the first energy crisis it was understandable why they chose that speed as a national limit.

45/25 does not have clear reasoning behind it. Yes it is true, if no boat exceeded 5 mph there would be a lot fewer fatalities but why would one want to live their life in bubble wrap?

Prior to the speed limit, NH had laws in place that effectively promoted safe practices on the state's waterways. New Hampshire has one of the best water safety records in the country. We don’t need redundant laws. We all want the lake to be safe; however before enacting a law like 45/25 we need to do our due diligence to determine what is an acceptable safety limit. The voices of the Coast Guard and New Hampshire Marine Patrol should be the loudest in this endeavor.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

OK,quick question, and I'm serious. What class is it that has $200K plus GFBL boats and what class is it that wants a speed limit? (My boat is 14' with a 15 HP outboard)

I truly believe that it is not only the upper class that owns GFBL's. I believe that it is a mix of many different classes. Personally I could afford one (on the lower end), but choose not to for my own reasons. And trust me when I am say that I am far far far away from the upper class.

[DEJ]

Ever notice how most speed limit supporters always refer to GFBL boats as 5 ton $200K boats? There are many if not more Bass boats on the lake on any weekend from ice out till the end of November than there are so called GFBL's that can do 70+ and cost about the same as the average bow rider style boat which is about 20 to 30K. Could it be that a particular type of boat is the real target here?

[BroadHopper]

So the SL supporters consider my little 22' 1988 Formula as a GFBL boat. Then they turn around and say the 200K+ Cigarette boats are the GFBL boats. I'm really confused???? Just what is exactly a GFBL boat?????

I think I am in 'No man's land'. Between the pontoon and bowriders that do no wrong? And the big 'ocean liners' that does everything wrong?

My beef is boneheads are in all type of boats. Outlawing a specific style boat does not get rid of the problem!

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

I am still puzzled by the postings of historical accidents in all the different threads posted by one forum member.

NG, You would be absolutely AMAZED at the number of emails I have received thanking me for these posts and for enlightening of the extent of this problem. If one was only to read these anti speed limit threads, one would think that it is safe to have boats buzzing around a crowded lake at whatever speeds the drivers felt appropriate. Some people had even bought the tripe about there never having been a high-speed accident on Winnipesaukee and were startled to learn that was a lie many times over.
Once people (including several legislators by the way) see how wide spread and deadly this problem is, it wakes them right up to the reality.
Whether you and your seven buddies want to pretend this has no relevance to the dangers of high-speed boating, on Winnipesaukee and everywhere else, is not of consequence to me. You are not the readers I am aiming at. It is my opinion that this stuff has more relevance than simply "it happened on water", and we each have a right to our own opinins in America, right? And you have the right to put me on "ignore" if you don't want to read it.

Originally Posted by VtSteve

The next time you have a smart remark to make, better finish reading first. Same goes to El. Real boaters have no use for such rubbish.

"rubbish" is a matter of opinion. I think most of your posts are "rubbish", so I ignore them unless they are directed to or mention me...as you did here again. I swear you do this just to attract my response and get the threads shut down. The real "rubbish" to me is the silly notion that driving drunk excuses speeding, or that a high-speed accident by an identical boat on a similar lake is irrelevant. I don't think anyone of intelligence is really buying that "rubbish".
As to the case where there was an accident in a 25MPH zone. That is a tragedy. And I'm sure that we will still have an occasional tragedy like that on Winnipesaukee under our SL. Nobody said the SL will cure all of our problems or make boating completely safe. It is merely one more stone in a wall of safety that makes the lake a better place for boating for all. No single stone is going to make the lake safer by itself. But surely there will be far fewer of these tragedies with a SL than without. We still have highway deaths, but thank God we have speed limits on our highways and it is not "every man for himself" like it used to be on Winnipesaukee, or we'd surely have thousands more.
Now I really wish that you'd put me on "ignore" and stop mentioning me, as you simple can't seem to avoid being personal and it is really taking these threads down. Sometimes I think you are just trying to get the threads closed.

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

That is your real agenda now isn't it...I realize that as long as Fast Boats are on the lake, you and your buddies will not be satisfied.

You're getting personal again. Stop trying to tell us what we think, what our agenda is, and what will satisfy us. You don't know, and that is not the purpose of these threads. Tell us what YOU think about the SL...why did it make the lake so much more civil last year or why didn't it...in YOUR opinion. That's what the readers (including several legislators) are coming here to read. And that is how you keep this debate from heading back into the gutter. Unless it is really your goal to drag it back into the gutter to get the threads shut down. I know what I think and what my agenda is, and it has nothing to do with any type of boat. I just want to keep all the gains we have made and see Winnipesaukee remain like it was last summer. There were plenty of "Fast Boats" out there last summer and I was happy to see them, because they just weren't going too fast. And that made boating on Winnipesaukee so much better for the rest of us.

I'm looking for information about the Eagle Island crash from earlier in the decade. Not the most recent one where the kid was seen traveling at a high rate of speed in his mom's boat before he crashed ashore and landed right next to a cottage, but the one that happened a few years before that where the Mount's captain saw the boat crash at very high speed and land right next to another cottage with people sleeping inside. Can anyone help me find a report on that one?

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by elchase

...why did it make the lake so much more civil last year...

I just want to keep all the gains we have made and see Winnipesaukee remain like it was last summer.

How many times do I have to point out to you that THERE WAS NO SPEED LIMIT LAW IN EFFECT IN 2008?!?!? You keep telling us and telling us and telling us how civilized the lake was last year (2008) and I keep pointing out to you that there was no speed limit in effect in 2008!! HB-847 was introduced, voted on and signed by the governor in 2008, WITH AN EFFECTIVE DATE OF JAN. 1, 2009 to sunset on Jan. 1, 2011!!

So, if Lake Winnipesaukee was really so calm and civilized in 2008 AND there was no speed limit law in effect, we can only deduce that the current speed limit law really IS just a FEEL GOOD LAW because IT WAS NOT IN EFFECT IN 2008 and from everything I've read in your posts, you were still overjoyed with the so-called "results" in 2008!!!!

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

So I guess what OCDACTIVE was saying on another thread about how fast his GFB could go and showing the instruments on his boat going 86 MPH was just a game he is playing. He also said many more things that pertain to speed on Lake Winni.

Apparently, you don't read all the posts in the speed limit section! Anybody who had read them all would know that OCD trailers his boat to other states to participate in poker runs!! I guess it didn't occur to you that the comments and photos he posted might be in reference to THOSE trips he took, NOT to his boating habits on Lake Winnipesaukee! And you think the SL opponents "don't get it"!!

Sorry OCD, I know you're capable of defending yourself but I was already posting and just had to point out the error of his ways!!

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

Sorry OCD, I know you're capable of defending yourself but I was already posting and just had to point out the error of his ways!!

Thanks man.. Not to worry... I enjoy a good debate on this subject thats why I respond to sunset and bear islander etc... I don't engage troublemakers or trolls. Just won't get anywhere and not worth it.

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Thanks man.. Not to worry... I enjoy a good debate on this subject thats why I respond to sunset and bear islander etc... I don't engage troublemakers or trolls. Just won't get anywhere and not worth it.

I guess I fit into that catagory (according to you anyway) so I won't post anymore on Winnipesaukee Forum.


See Ya

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Can't quite see the relevance here EL to Winnipesaukee and our SL:
1) The accident happened in Florida.
2) Alcohol was involved.
3) The accident occurred in November; there is minimal boating activity on Lake Winnipesaukee at that time of year.
4) The accident happened on salt water which has a higher density and more buoyancy than fresh water.
5) There are alligators in Florida and none in New Hampshire.

Here's the real relevance Sunset, be sgure to wipe the smirk off your face after reading

"Six die in Broward Intracoastal boat collision

Ft Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel
25 November 1997
FORT LAUDERDALE - Six people were killed and two injured late Monday when a Cigarette-style boat slammed into a smaller boat from behind on the Intracoastal Waterway just south of the Sunrise Boulevard bridge.
A 45-foot Cigarette-type named "Merrymaker" was traveling north, "apparently at a high rate of speed," about 11:25 p.m. when it struck a 31-foot cabin cruiser named "Bill it" from behind, cutting it in half and killing all six people on board. Authorities have not determined the speed of the larger boat, but the speed limit is 25 mph in that area of the waterway.
"It was a gory scene," said Fort Lauderdale Fire Battalion Chief Tom Fredricks.

The speedboat continued north, striking a dock about a block north, then came to a stop in the water.
"

The next time you have a smart remark to make, better finish reading first. Same goes to El. Real boaters have no use for such rubbish.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Here's the real relevance Sunset, be sgure to wipe the smirk off your face after reading

"Six die in Broward Intracoastal boat collision

Ft Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel
25 November 1997
FORT LAUDERDALE - Six people were killed and two injured late Monday when a Cigarette-style boat slammed into a smaller boat from behind on the Intracoastal Waterway just south of the Sunrise Boulevard bridge.
A 45-foot Cigarette-type named "Merrymaker" was traveling north, "apparently at a high rate of speed," about 11:25 p.m. when it struck a 31-foot cabin cruiser named "Bill it" from behind, cutting it in half and killing all six people on board. Authorities have not determined the speed of the larger boat, but the speed limit is 25 mph in that area of the waterway.
"It was a gory scene," said Fort Lauderdale Fire Battalion Chief Tom Fredricks.

The speedboat continued north, striking a dock about a block north, then came to a stop in the water.
"

The next time you have a smart remark to make, better finish reading first. Same goes to El. Real boaters have no use for such rubbish.

And your indignant remarks conveniently ignore the irony of the specious and convoluted arguments that any accident occuring anywhere else has no relevance to our speed limit. This is what my post is highlighting.Trying to paint the picture that SL supporters have no compassion for those injured or killed by speeding boats meshes well with your arguments that if SL supporters really cared about safety then we would be working to solve the problem of Capt. Bonehead. Nice try.