Winni Water Quality A Concern

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Jeanzb1

Anyone who has a nice green weed-free lawn has been using Scott's and other fertilizers.

You are wrong. In fact, you will find that other than starter fertilizers, most individuals use phos-free fertilizer as that's what is marketed. It also helps that it's cheaper so people are more likely to use it. Nitrate loading is a factor but the phosphorus is the fire starter so to speak.

Some of us go to great lengths to use soybean meal for our fertilizer and have a trophy lawn that is weed free

It's very easy to point to the "obvious" and ignore the far more prevalent culprits. Leach fields near the lake are a HUGE contributor to water quality issues with the lake water. Every time a driveway is put in, deck built, home built, you are increasing the impervious surfaces and removing natural buffering of nutrient movement that otherwise would be held in place.

If water quality was a true concern, all lake front development would be banned. Think I'm kidding? Many lakes throughout the US do not permit ANY development along the shores to preserve not only water quality but the natural resource. Speed limit, rafting, launch ramp complaint just don't seem to be a problem either

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

You are wrong. In fact, you will find that other than starter fertilizers, most individuals use phos-free fertilizer as that's what is marketed. It also helps that it's cheaper so people are more likely to use it. Nitrate loading is a factor but the phosphorus is the fire starter so to speak.

Some of us go to great lengths to use soybean meal for our fertilizer and have a trophy lawn that is weed free

Lawn Pysco,

I thank you for your efforts not to use phosphorus containing fertilizers. However I must strongly disagree with you notion that most people don't use them. The #1 selling brand of fertilizers as best I know is Scotts, the last time I looked all of their products contained phosphorous to some extent.

As we have had some issues around my camp, I have been talking to many of my neighbors, most of them look at me when I tell them about the harmful effects of fertilizers with Bug eyes, run check the contents of their selected brand, and let out a sigh....

There has not been enough education about this problem for it not to be an issue. And forget about the small home owner treated lawns. I would love to know what is contained in the big chem lawn treating companies products.

Now you instead want to point your finger at septic systems.... well I don't completely disagree with you. As long as a system is functioning properly. All it is leaching into the ground is gray water... and as long as it has good distance to leach to the lake all the contaminants from the grey water never makes it to the lake. The bigger problem is the many, and I mean many season places that don't have all their plumbing going into the septic tank.... There are many many camps around the lake that dump the water from sinks and showers in to leaching tank directly.....This is untreated water leaching directly into the ground and is a problem. And sometime it is release just onto the ground.... When we looked for our place 15 years ago, I saw this as a very common practice, among seasonal camps.... the only thing that went to the septic, was the toilet.

[Jeanzb1]

News Flash:

My husband just retired from working as a senior turf specialist for TruGreen ChemLawn for 20 years. Most people opt for the standard "quick green-up" treatment, which contains phosphorus as the first number (largest ingredient.)
Furthermore, from where we are I can easily see homeowners pushing the broadcast fertilizer spreader around the lawn, right up to the water's edge. That being said, I'm sure that leaching fields from septic systems are also a problem. But to start addressing this very serious water quality problem, as a first step doesn't it make sense to educate people about the use of Scott's and other phosphorus-based fertilizers???

[Lakegeezer]

The hardware stores around here could clean up on selling low or no phosphorus lawn greener. However, when I have gone asking for some, they don't seem to get the question. Education is the key factor - we need to have people aware that there are alternatives and know where to get them. Most people will do the right thing if it is almost as easy.

Until I read Lawn Psycho's post, I didn't know about soybean fertilizer. Where can I get some? This week, I attended a presentation from UNH and DES on shoreline care. They indicated that zero phosphorus is best, but 2% is considered "low" - so the *second* number in the a-b-c fertilizer rating should be no more than 2.

A technology that would really help the lake is an inexpensive phosphorus water test. Then, we'd be able to test suspected areas of infiltration and build a map of where it is coming from.

My belief is that runoff is our most serious source of phosphorus. The shoreline protection act is meant to help, but each property owner on or near the lake should be thinking about how to slow down water from its journey into the lake.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

The hardware stores around here could clean up on selling low or no phosphorus lawn greener. However, when I have gone asking for some, they don't seem to get the question. Education is the key factor - we need to have people aware that there are alternatives and know where to get them. Most people will do the right thing if it is almost as easy.

Until I read Lawn Psycho's post, I didn't know about soybean fertilizer. Where can I get some? This week, I attended a presentation from UNH and DES on shoreline care. They indicated that zero phosphorus is best, but 2% is considered "low" - so the *second* number in the a-b-c fertilizer rating should be no more than 2.

A technology that would really help the lake is an inexpensive phosphorus water test. Then, we'd be able to test suspected areas of infiltration and build a map of where it is coming from.

My belief is that runoff is our most serious source of phosphorus. The shoreline protection act is meant to help, but each property owner on or near the lake should be thinking about how to slow down water from its journey into the lake.

LIforrelaxin,

Fecal microbes can travel laterally through soil over 5-10 years at distances of 100 feet or more. The leach field principle is one of dilution. That dilution is with filtering of rain water that percolates into the soil and the leachate water combines with the groundwater. If you have rocky soil, slopes, high water table, it means more leaching of setic water into the groundwater at a higher rate.

The effluent from you septic tank has nitrogen which is not broken down in the retention tank. Also, day in and day out that our tanks are not 100% efficient as flows change from day to day.

You may not want to admit it, but any of you who live on the water are contributing to the problem with every flush, shower, run of the dishwasher. I'd like to know if data has been compiled over many years to perform a regression of house lots versus water quality indicators. Not only septic fields, but simply adding impervious surfaces and removal of trees adds to the problem. Even the type of driveway sealer you use can impact water quality.

Lake Geezer,
The soybean meal is not something you will find on big box shelves. Usually comes in 50 lb bags and you can get it at feedstores and some Agways. You can also use corn gluten meal for weed defense but I have found keeping the grass slightly taller and hand pulling the one or two weeds that come in is easier. In other words, don't let the weeds get started.

When first establishing a brand new lawn, I go with synthetic fertilizers such a Scott's to get the intitial feedings and once my soil tests show I'm where I need to be, I swtich to soybean meal.

It's slower acting and you won't get a 3 day pop in green, it's gradual and over time you lawn will look great. Takes about 3 weeks to notice as the proteins in the soybean breaks down. I feed in mid-April and then the Federal Holidays. Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, and a final feeding around the first week of October.

If you use kentucky bluegrass seed, just be PATIENT. It takes 3 years from start to trophy if properly fed and cut at the right height.

You can buy "organic" (as in protein based) fertilizers for your lawn such as Cockadoodle Doo or the Espoma brands. The latter two you will find at places like nurseries or Agways.

Also, shoot for a soil pH of 7.5 Don't use the junk field test kits from HD or Lowe's, send it to a soil testing service. I use the Maine soil testing service. I'm sure UNH has something similar but haven't checked.

[topwater]

Does anyone really believe this will change in the future? I don't ! It will never get better, only worse like anything else that is talked about here. We can talk till we're blue in the face, but it won't change anything. Yes, we want it to, Yes, that would make this world so much nicer, But way to many people just DON'T CARE. They talk a good game but thats as far as it goes.
Thats todays society, as long as I(ME) am not inconvienced, then things are good. It would be wonderful if things did change, but they never will!!! They will only get worse. I am not a optimist, nor a pessimist, just a realist.
I'm sure I'll get a fallout on this one, but there will be many of you who will not respond that agree whole heartly.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by topwater

Does anyone really believe this will change in the future? I don't ! It will never get better, only worse like anything else that is talked about here. We can talk till we're blue in the face, but it won't change anything. Yes, we want it to, Yes, that would make this world so much nicer, But way to many people just DON'T CARE. They talk a good game but thats as far as it goes.
Thats todays society, as long as I(ME) am not inconvienced, then things are good. It would be wonderful if things did change, but they never will!!! They will only get worse. I am not a optimist, nor a pessimist, just a realist.
I'm sure I'll get a fallout on this one, but there will be many of you who will not respond that agree whole heartly.

First, you got your definitions mixed up; Pessimist = Experienced optimist


Second, yes I do believe this will change. In one day, nope. Removal of the phosphorus from products that go into wastewater started to be addressed years go with detergents. There is a long list of chemicals that are no longer allowed or allowed with restrictions by application.

An example: MSMA is the silver bullet for killing crabgrass but the arsenic component has it on a short life span as the ban is coming and already set into motion. Warning to those who will run out and look for this as you can still buy it; They ain't kiddin' when you see how small of amount you need in your sprayer.

[Shore Driver]

Originally Posted by Jeanzb1

News Flash:

My husband just retired from working as a senior turf specialist for TruGreen ChemLawn for 20 years. Most people opt for the standard "quick green-up" treatment, which contains phosphorus as the first number (largest ingredient.)
Furthermore, from where we are I can easily see homeowners pushing the broadcast fertilizer spreader around the lawn, right up to the water's edge. That being said, I'm sure that leaching fields from septic systems are also a problem. But to start addressing this very serious water quality problem, as a first step doesn't it make sense to educate people about the use of Scott's and other phosphorus-based fertilizers???

I once worked there too

The "first number" is Nitrogen, for quick green-up. Phosphorus is the 2nd, Potassium 3rd. A typical example from your hardware store might look like this:

31-4-8


Due to a greater awareness of the issues that arise from excess phosphorus, many fertilizers are going to a phosphorus-free blend, where you would look for a 0 in the 2nd number. These are becoming more common. Unfortunately, the average Joe homeowner might think he's getting jipped with a phosphorus-free blend, and seek out a bag that still contains it, or he buys from the commercial brands like Lesco, that still favor phosphorus in their mix.

Scotts, IMO, are not the guilty party here, but rather the ignorant homeowner.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Jeanzb1

News Flash:

My husband just retired from working as a senior turf specialist for TruGreen ChemLawn for 20 years. Most people opt for the standard "quick green-up" treatment, which contains phosphorus as the first number (largest ingredient.)
Furthermore, from where we are I can easily see homeowners pushing the broadcast fertilizer spreader around the lawn, right up to the water's edge. That being said, I'm sure that leaching fields from septic systems are also a problem. But to start addressing this very serious water quality problem, as a first step doesn't it make sense to educate people about the use of Scott's and other phosphorus-based fertilizers???

Newsflash: The "lawn" service companies are the one's pushing the high nitrogen. Homeowner's don't "opt" for it. Ever notice there is ONE tank on the back of the truck for fertilizer? The reason lawn service companies push a fertilizer with a high nitrogren content is the grass plant can quickly use it for food and hence the quick green up. The consumer then thinks they are getting some kind of value. The problem is, the way to a healthly lawn is the soil. Bad soil = bad lawn. However, give me a bad lawn and I can push a ton of nitrogen to it and it will be green. Stop feeding and the issues return. What's worse is they also use cheap seed, not sod quality so they are acutually planting weeds into your lawn as a bone-us should you have them do an over-seed.

Ever notice that lawn services don't use a true soil tests for each lawn? Did you know that a soil test is the ONLY way to know how much fertilizer is needed in your turf? Soil needs to have organic matter which is also measured in the soil test. The lawn services all use a one-size-fits-all and if your soil is bad, the root of the problem is not addressed.

Having a nice lawn and landscaping is a serious hobby for me. One that I've got over 10 years of experience both practical as well as the two shelves of books I have just on grass and soil management. Some of us know what we're doing so when you make a blanket statement that people are using "Scott's" if they have nice lawn, you painted with too broad a brush.

I have a lot of fun with my lawn and plants. I get sick of hearing people tell me I must be using a ton of chemicals, yada, yada.

Start with the best sod quality seed you can buy and plant it into good soil and that's 90% of the battle. You can either get the seed from a local sod farm or order it online. The last 10% is proper cutting (height, sharp blade) and feeding in the right amounts and at the right time.

And by the way, fertilier content is given as N-P-K

You couldn't pay me to have the hacks of Lawn Dog, Scotts, or TruSuck to even walk on my lawn.

[SAMIAM]

We have a lawn treatment service once a month during the season and they won't go anywhere near the lake.......I think they are regulated by law. Anyway, we have beautiful green grass on the road side and mostly clover (which we like just as much) on the lake side. So, everyone is happy, including the deer. Clover is their favorite food and keeps them out of the garden.

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

Newsflash: The "lawn" service companies are the one's pushing the high nitrogen....

....You couldn't pay me to have the hacks of Lawn Dog, Scotts, or TruSuck to even walk on my lawn.

Thanks you so much for your insite! We fired the Lawndog last year after several years of paying and at the end there is nothing left except to bring in new soil and hydroseed. Now with your posts I feel we will do a better job of not trusting the franchise (I am sure some are good) and be a better educated consumer.

Topwater - Things can change (not the Obama type!) and have over the decades. I remember Lake Erie was declared dead, cigarette smoking everywhere, lead paint, lead in gas, pesticides that killed bird eggs, and many other things that are removed from our daily lives.

[StephenB]

On a brighter note, as our civilization slides further and further into oil and (to a lesser extent) natural gas decline, look for less chemical green lawns, less Turf Builder, and less use of lakeside cottages as homes.

Then too, phosphorus is getting somewhat pricey as the easy-to-mine supplies are being gobbled up by the world-wide farming machine.

I don't foresee the lake returning to lower phosphorus levels anytime soon, but said levels might not grow as fast as some people think either.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

Thanks you so much for your insite! We fired the Lawndog last year after several years of paying and at the end there is nothing left except to bring in new soil and hydroseed. Now with your posts I feel we will do a better job of not trusting the franchise (I am sure some are good) and be a better educated consumer.

NoRegrets, if you are paying for hydroseed, just be careful about seed selection that they offer. They will use a very high content of PR (perennial ryegrass). They do that for the fast germination. Here in NE you can certainly get a fairly nice looking lawn using PR.

If you are striving for the really nice lawn then go with a blend of sod quality Kentucky Bluegrass (KBG). It takes a full three weeks to germinate and will be thin in spots and requires more water days during initial establishment. However, it spreads via rhizhomes so overseeding is not needed unless you get a large area that dies off for some reason. After 2-3 seasons, you'll be a very happy camper with the dark green color. The dark green comes from the genetics of the KBG plant, not just from fertilizer. If you go with KBG, remember this word: patience.

You can get sod quality PR or KBG seed and have them load it into the hydroseeder. Personally, I've had better luck with my broadcast seeder. You also get some exercise and save money at the same time. I recommend www.seedsuperstore.com as I have had very good luck with their seed. They have both PR and KBG in sod quality. You can't get sod quality seed at HD or Lowe's as they simply don't sell it (primarily due to cost)

If you want something fun to do, go to HD or Lowe's and flip over the bags of seeds and look at the mixtures. You'll see two bags with identical packaging having different seed types This is why those bags can result in yards that look spotty as you can get fine, wide, and medium blade grass seeds and it ruins any chance of the 'uniform' look. Then homeowner then believes the soil must be different in those spots not knowing it was the seed.

Scott's has their "select" seed where every bag is that same but they use low grade seeds and you'll never see a retail bag have weed content of 0.00% like when you buy sod quality. With sod quality grass seed you will almost always find the germination rates of over 85-90%

Before you spend the money on new soil, I strongly suggest taking soil samples to see what you have. What I can tell you is if your pH is either way to high or low than that is where to start. The pH in the soil impacts nutrient uptake by the plant. Also, heavy shade = poor lawn.

If the test shows low organic matter (OM), have 1 to 2 inches of soil brought in and then core aerate the living daylight out of it to work it in with the top of your existing soil. Then seed and use a lawn roller. Keep lightly watering until the entire lawn is germinated. Never leave the soil 'wet' or having any pooling but rather keeping it continuosly damp is the goal. Watering is where a lot of people fail as it requires 2-3 times a day for 1-3 weeks.

If you have over 5% organic matter in your soil, and still can't get grass to establish, you have either a pH out of whack or gross macro nutrient deficiency that the test should reveal.

Lastly, do not bag your clippings. Mulch mowing is the way to go as it specifically addresses the organic matter over time.

[NoRegrets]

I feel like I need to go to an AA meeting for lawns! About 15 years ago we hired a landscape architect to design then build our yard. We had trees removed, land graded, sub soil brought in, then top soil. Stone work, flower "islands", pathways, then Hydroseeding. It was beautiful for a few years and we hired Lawndog to keep it up and a yard service to cut it.

Here is the AA part: 10 years ago we discovered boating so we were never home on weekends to work the yard and we did not pay attention to it. 2 years ago the grass looked horrible. All we had was moss and weeds. The flower beds and stone work are still great.

This winter we lost 6 trees in the wind and had some heavy equipment trash the yard. This is the catalyst to have a "do over" project on the yard.

After looking at the seedsuperstore website I realize I was clueless and let too much time go without getting involved.

Thanks so very much on the lessons and time you took to respond. Looks like I have a new project but this time I will be sure not to loose control! Who would figure a thread about Winni water conditions would end up with such a valuable interaction!

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

Who would figure a thread about Winni water conditions would end up with such a valuable interaction!

Good soil and grass management does play a role in water quality (not just Lake Winni). Crappy soil means Joe/Jane Blow homeowner throws more fertilizer at the problem. If you can improve your soil then ultimately you end up using less fertilizer. Win-win situation.

It also plays into herbicides as crappy lawns are more prone to weeds and disease which means you have to use more chemicals to zap them.

Nothing beats a uniform, lush, dense lawn. And it does not take massive doses of chemicals to get there. Maintenance free is not part of the deal, however.

Now, golf courses and professional ball fields would scare you if you knew what they do. There's a reason the early morning fertilizer applications are done with respirators

[corollaman]

what is talking about and arguing about it on this forum gonna change?

Believe me, I was talking to my grandfather and he said the lakes rivers were FAR more polluted back in his day than they are today! The water had much worse stuff in it then. The Merrimack river, you couldn't even go swimming in it as late as the 1970's. It was very polluted. My mom walked home from Lowell High School everyday and had to cross the river to get home, it was a different color everyday! It depended on what dyes and other crap the factories dumped in it. I think things are much cleaner today because of the EPA and everything. We say we don't want all these govt agencies telling us what to do, but you know what, without them, we would destroy the environment! If we kept doing what we did back in the old days, we wouldn't have a river or a lake suitable for swimming in. The Govt is getting into our lives because we are too stubborn to police ourselves. Something had to be done about the environment, people didn't care enough about it to preserve it, obviously, because we were dumping crap in the rivers and lakes, so they had to form the EPA. So we had the chance to do the right thing, now we're forced to do the right thing.

[Grant]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

Good soil and grass management does play a role in water quality (not just Lake Winni). Crappy soil means Joe/Jane Blow homeowner throws more fertilizer at the problem. If you can improve your soil then ultimately you end up using less fertilizer. Win-win situation.

It also plays into herbicides as crappy lawns are more prone to weeds and disease which means you have to use more chemicals to zap them.

Nothing beats a uniform, lush, dense lawn. And it does not take massive doses of chemicals to get there. Maintenance free is not part of the deal, however.

Now, golf courses and professional ball fields would scare you if you knew what they do. There's a reason the early morning fertilizer applications are done with respirators

Yeah, but if we're concerned with Lake water quality, then ANY fertilization of lawns should be banned outright. No exceptions. There's no need to feed a lakeside lawn. None at all.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Grant

Yeah, but if we're concerned with Lake water quality, then ANY fertilization of lawns should be banned outright. No exceptions. There's no need to feed a lakeside lawn. None at all.

Not true. You can use organic fertilizers. They're quite effective too.

[mg2107]

Sure lawn fertlizers play a role ,abeit a small one. Its the tons of sewage infiltrating thats the major culprit.

[NoRegrets]

We have the opinion that we want to be proud of where we live. We do not live in a "back to earth" natural granola landscape. I want a beautiful lush and semi formal lawn but may have done more damage to the earth until I saw what Lawn Pyscho has achieved in knowledge (and as his hobby!). When I see salt trucks in Mass. laying or spreading salt before storms I wonder how much damage that creates.

I will not denounce technology, advances in science, or being able to afford some luxuries. We do need to be concious about what we do and I am impressed and thankful LP has been a consistant and constructive contributor to the forum in many topics including this most current grass topic.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

We have the opinion that we want to be proud of where we live. We do not live in a "back to earth" natural granola landscape. I want a beautiful lush and semi formal lawn but may have done more damage to the earth until I saw what Lawn Pyscho has achieved in knowledge (and as his hobby!). When I see salt trucks in Mass. laying or spreading salt before storms I wonder how much damage that creates.

I will not denounce technology, advances in science, or being able to afford some luxuries. We do need to be concious about what we do and I am impressed and thankful LP has been a consistant and constructive contributor to the forum in many topics including this most current grass topic.

Folks may find this book an intersting read: http://www.amazon.com/American-Green...0435096&sr=8-1

[MAXUM]

I'm a little curious as to how an organic fertilizer is any better than a chemical one for waterfront property? Although the makeup may be different, the purpose is the same so would not the result be the same as well?

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

I'm a little curious as to how an organic fertilizer is any better than a chemical one for waterfront property? Although the makeup may be different, the purpose is the same so would not the result be the same as well?

A chemical fertilizer contains highly (relative term) soluble compounds. In fact, next time you see a fertilizer bag when you flip it over, you will usually see several different types of nitrogen based compounds as they offer a range of solubility. This plays into the marketing of slow-release, fast release fertilizers. If you put it down and then get heavy rains you then have run-off and the excess N-P-K eventually ends up in streams, etc.

With organic fertilizers think of them more like a compost pile. The existing soil microbes break down the fertilizer into the nutrients used by the grass plants. Think of it as eating slowly. Another bonus is that organic fertilizers secondarily serve as a soil conditioner by improving the organic matter that grass roots thrive in. You don't have to be concerned about run-off from organic fertilizers.

When you use something like soybean meal the concentration of N-P-K is many times lower than the chemical fertilizer. This is why I have to feed 5 times per year.

Not all "organic" fertilizers are given a free pass. Cow manure can contain a lot of nitrogen and whatever else left the back-end undigested and that run-off can create problems.