Winni Water Quality A Concern

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

Newsflash: The "lawn" service companies are the one's pushing the high nitrogen....

....You couldn't pay me to have the hacks of Lawn Dog, Scotts, or TruSuck to even walk on my lawn.

Thanks you so much for your insite! We fired the Lawndog last year after several years of paying and at the end there is nothing left except to bring in new soil and hydroseed. Now with your posts I feel we will do a better job of not trusting the franchise (I am sure some are good) and be a better educated consumer.

Topwater - Things can change (not the Obama type!) and have over the decades. I remember Lake Erie was declared dead, cigarette smoking everywhere, lead paint, lead in gas, pesticides that killed bird eggs, and many other things that are removed from our daily lives.

[StephenB]

On a brighter note, as our civilization slides further and further into oil and (to a lesser extent) natural gas decline, look for less chemical green lawns, less Turf Builder, and less use of lakeside cottages as homes.

Then too, phosphorus is getting somewhat pricey as the easy-to-mine supplies are being gobbled up by the world-wide farming machine.

I don't foresee the lake returning to lower phosphorus levels anytime soon, but said levels might not grow as fast as some people think either.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

Thanks you so much for your insite! We fired the Lawndog last year after several years of paying and at the end there is nothing left except to bring in new soil and hydroseed. Now with your posts I feel we will do a better job of not trusting the franchise (I am sure some are good) and be a better educated consumer.

NoRegrets, if you are paying for hydroseed, just be careful about seed selection that they offer. They will use a very high content of PR (perennial ryegrass). They do that for the fast germination. Here in NE you can certainly get a fairly nice looking lawn using PR.

If you are striving for the really nice lawn then go with a blend of sod quality Kentucky Bluegrass (KBG). It takes a full three weeks to germinate and will be thin in spots and requires more water days during initial establishment. However, it spreads via rhizhomes so overseeding is not needed unless you get a large area that dies off for some reason. After 2-3 seasons, you'll be a very happy camper with the dark green color. The dark green comes from the genetics of the KBG plant, not just from fertilizer. If you go with KBG, remember this word: patience.

You can get sod quality PR or KBG seed and have them load it into the hydroseeder. Personally, I've had better luck with my broadcast seeder. You also get some exercise and save money at the same time. I recommend www.seedsuperstore.com as I have had very good luck with their seed. They have both PR and KBG in sod quality. You can't get sod quality seed at HD or Lowe's as they simply don't sell it (primarily due to cost)

If you want something fun to do, go to HD or Lowe's and flip over the bags of seeds and look at the mixtures. You'll see two bags with identical packaging having different seed types This is why those bags can result in yards that look spotty as you can get fine, wide, and medium blade grass seeds and it ruins any chance of the 'uniform' look. Then homeowner then believes the soil must be different in those spots not knowing it was the seed.

Scott's has their "select" seed where every bag is that same but they use low grade seeds and you'll never see a retail bag have weed content of 0.00% like when you buy sod quality. With sod quality grass seed you will almost always find the germination rates of over 85-90%

Before you spend the money on new soil, I strongly suggest taking soil samples to see what you have. What I can tell you is if your pH is either way to high or low than that is where to start. The pH in the soil impacts nutrient uptake by the plant. Also, heavy shade = poor lawn.

If the test shows low organic matter (OM), have 1 to 2 inches of soil brought in and then core aerate the living daylight out of it to work it in with the top of your existing soil. Then seed and use a lawn roller. Keep lightly watering until the entire lawn is germinated. Never leave the soil 'wet' or having any pooling but rather keeping it continuosly damp is the goal. Watering is where a lot of people fail as it requires 2-3 times a day for 1-3 weeks.

If you have over 5% organic matter in your soil, and still can't get grass to establish, you have either a pH out of whack or gross macro nutrient deficiency that the test should reveal.

Lastly, do not bag your clippings. Mulch mowing is the way to go as it specifically addresses the organic matter over time.

[NoRegrets]

I feel like I need to go to an AA meeting for lawns! About 15 years ago we hired a landscape architect to design then build our yard. We had trees removed, land graded, sub soil brought in, then top soil. Stone work, flower "islands", pathways, then Hydroseeding. It was beautiful for a few years and we hired Lawndog to keep it up and a yard service to cut it.

Here is the AA part: 10 years ago we discovered boating so we were never home on weekends to work the yard and we did not pay attention to it. 2 years ago the grass looked horrible. All we had was moss and weeds. The flower beds and stone work are still great.

This winter we lost 6 trees in the wind and had some heavy equipment trash the yard. This is the catalyst to have a "do over" project on the yard.

After looking at the seedsuperstore website I realize I was clueless and let too much time go without getting involved.

Thanks so very much on the lessons and time you took to respond. Looks like I have a new project but this time I will be sure not to loose control! Who would figure a thread about Winni water conditions would end up with such a valuable interaction!

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

Who would figure a thread about Winni water conditions would end up with such a valuable interaction!

Good soil and grass management does play a role in water quality (not just Lake Winni). Crappy soil means Joe/Jane Blow homeowner throws more fertilizer at the problem. If you can improve your soil then ultimately you end up using less fertilizer. Win-win situation.

It also plays into herbicides as crappy lawns are more prone to weeds and disease which means you have to use more chemicals to zap them.

Nothing beats a uniform, lush, dense lawn. And it does not take massive doses of chemicals to get there. Maintenance free is not part of the deal, however.

Now, golf courses and professional ball fields would scare you if you knew what they do. There's a reason the early morning fertilizer applications are done with respirators

[corollaman]

what is talking about and arguing about it on this forum gonna change?

Believe me, I was talking to my grandfather and he said the lakes rivers were FAR more polluted back in his day than they are today! The water had much worse stuff in it then. The Merrimack river, you couldn't even go swimming in it as late as the 1970's. It was very polluted. My mom walked home from Lowell High School everyday and had to cross the river to get home, it was a different color everyday! It depended on what dyes and other crap the factories dumped in it. I think things are much cleaner today because of the EPA and everything. We say we don't want all these govt agencies telling us what to do, but you know what, without them, we would destroy the environment! If we kept doing what we did back in the old days, we wouldn't have a river or a lake suitable for swimming in. The Govt is getting into our lives because we are too stubborn to police ourselves. Something had to be done about the environment, people didn't care enough about it to preserve it, obviously, because we were dumping crap in the rivers and lakes, so they had to form the EPA. So we had the chance to do the right thing, now we're forced to do the right thing.

[Grant]

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

Good soil and grass management does play a role in water quality (not just Lake Winni). Crappy soil means Joe/Jane Blow homeowner throws more fertilizer at the problem. If you can improve your soil then ultimately you end up using less fertilizer. Win-win situation.

It also plays into herbicides as crappy lawns are more prone to weeds and disease which means you have to use more chemicals to zap them.

Nothing beats a uniform, lush, dense lawn. And it does not take massive doses of chemicals to get there. Maintenance free is not part of the deal, however.

Now, golf courses and professional ball fields would scare you if you knew what they do. There's a reason the early morning fertilizer applications are done with respirators

Yeah, but if we're concerned with Lake water quality, then ANY fertilization of lawns should be banned outright. No exceptions. There's no need to feed a lakeside lawn. None at all.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by Grant

Yeah, but if we're concerned with Lake water quality, then ANY fertilization of lawns should be banned outright. No exceptions. There's no need to feed a lakeside lawn. None at all.

Not true. You can use organic fertilizers. They're quite effective too.

[mg2107]

Sure lawn fertlizers play a role ,abeit a small one. Its the tons of sewage infiltrating thats the major culprit.

[NoRegrets]

We have the opinion that we want to be proud of where we live. We do not live in a "back to earth" natural granola landscape. I want a beautiful lush and semi formal lawn but may have done more damage to the earth until I saw what Lawn Pyscho has achieved in knowledge (and as his hobby!). When I see salt trucks in Mass. laying or spreading salt before storms I wonder how much damage that creates.

I will not denounce technology, advances in science, or being able to afford some luxuries. We do need to be concious about what we do and I am impressed and thankful LP has been a consistant and constructive contributor to the forum in many topics including this most current grass topic.

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

We have the opinion that we want to be proud of where we live. We do not live in a "back to earth" natural granola landscape. I want a beautiful lush and semi formal lawn but may have done more damage to the earth until I saw what Lawn Pyscho has achieved in knowledge (and as his hobby!). When I see salt trucks in Mass. laying or spreading salt before storms I wonder how much damage that creates.

I will not denounce technology, advances in science, or being able to afford some luxuries. We do need to be concious about what we do and I am impressed and thankful LP has been a consistant and constructive contributor to the forum in many topics including this most current grass topic.

Folks may find this book an intersting read: http://www.amazon.com/American-Green...0435096&sr=8-1

[MAXUM]

I'm a little curious as to how an organic fertilizer is any better than a chemical one for waterfront property? Although the makeup may be different, the purpose is the same so would not the result be the same as well?

[lawn psycho]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

I'm a little curious as to how an organic fertilizer is any better than a chemical one for waterfront property? Although the makeup may be different, the purpose is the same so would not the result be the same as well?

A chemical fertilizer contains highly (relative term) soluble compounds. In fact, next time you see a fertilizer bag when you flip it over, you will usually see several different types of nitrogen based compounds as they offer a range of solubility. This plays into the marketing of slow-release, fast release fertilizers. If you put it down and then get heavy rains you then have run-off and the excess N-P-K eventually ends up in streams, etc.

With organic fertilizers think of them more like a compost pile. The existing soil microbes break down the fertilizer into the nutrients used by the grass plants. Think of it as eating slowly. Another bonus is that organic fertilizers secondarily serve as a soil conditioner by improving the organic matter that grass roots thrive in. You don't have to be concerned about run-off from organic fertilizers.

When you use something like soybean meal the concentration of N-P-K is many times lower than the chemical fertilizer. This is why I have to feed 5 times per year.

Not all "organic" fertilizers are given a free pass. Cow manure can contain a lot of nitrogen and whatever else left the back-end undigested and that run-off can create problems.