Boat Sinking?????

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

I'm sorry but I will be shocked if it was not operator error. I think that BR scooped water. I can't believe that short of the outdrive falling off leaving a huge hole that any other opening (transducer) etc would overcome the bilge pump.

If there is a lesson to be learned- trim up (just a few degrees) and keep your bow cover on when the weather gets rough. That open bow creates a giant scoop.

Ever launch a boat without the plug in it? Trust me, they fill VERY quickly. I made the mistake once in a 20' Ebbtide at the Wolfeboro town docks. We barely got it back on the trailer. The engine compartment filled extremely fast from just a drain plug hole. It does not take long, and the bilge pump was not keeping up.

My point is, it does not take a large hole.

[NoBozo]

I haven't had a battery Master Switch since I had my cabin boats.. you know, the ones that has bunks, you can sleep aboard, has cabin lights, stereo, ship to shore VHF radio, etc.

The master switch usually has Four positions. #1 battery, #2 battery, OFF, and BOTH. When the engine is running, the battery the switch is set to, will be On Line meaning it will be charging. If Both is set, both battery's will charge at the same time. When I was underway under power (It was a sailboat) I was always On BOTH Battery's to take advantage of the engine charging both battery's.

When I shut the engine off to SAIL, I would switch the Master Switch over to a single battery. It will take quite awhile to run a battery down using just a VHF, sailing instruments, and maybe the stereo.

Something to ponder..and I'm sure it will confuse those not familiar with how some stuff works. A friend of mine had a '79 Ferrari 308 GTS. It had carburetters Vs Electronic Fuel Injection. The alternator was kapoot and would NOT charge the battery or do anything else. It's location in front of, and down under the engine made it almost imposable to remove. So it had to be done by a professional with the proper tools..most importantly a LIFT, which he did not have.

Cash was not readily available at the time, for various reasons. This did NOT mean the car could not be driven. It was just an occasional Sunday Driver anyhow.

He would routinely take the car out for an entire Sunday ride...with NO functioning Alternator. ONLY the battery was there for electricity for Ignition and anything else. You could start the engine any number of times, and then Drive It ALL DAY On The Battery Alone....say 150-200 miles..Rhode Island down to Connecticut and back. The only catch was don't use the headlights or radio. No one with a Ferrari uses the radio anyway.

If the car had had Electronic Fuel Injection requireing electrical power, it might have been a different story.

My current 20 foot runaboat with a 350 V8 does not have a battery switch... just one battery which I have replaced twice in 14 years.. last.. just last summer. The bilge pump is always set to Automatic and is Always connected to the battery...UNLESS I accidently "bump" the dashboard toggle switch to OFF. NB

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

He would routinely take the car out for an entire Sunday ride...with NO functioning Alternator. ONLY the battery was there for electricity for Ignition and anything else. You could start the engine any number of times, and then Drive It ALL DAY On The Battery Alone....say 150-200 miles..Rhode Island down to Connecticut and back. The only catch was don't use the headlights or radio. No one with a Ferrari uses the radio anyway.

If the car had had Electronic Fuel Injection requireing electrical power, it might have been a different story.

Going back to the Ferrari question for a moment, I'm certainly not an expert but the Ferrari may have had a magneto ignition. Magnetos generate their own electricity to fire spark plugs so as long as the battery was in good enough condition to start the engine a few times (assuming they would make some occasional stops during their Sunday drive) and they didn't run any other electrical systems (radio, lights, etc.), the magneto would have taken care of the ignition system.

Magnetos are still in use today; remember what provides the spark for your basic chainsaw, lawn mower, weed wacker, etc., etc.? As a matter of fact, NHRA Funny Car and Top Fuel engines still use twin magnetos to fire 2 spark plugs per cylinder. How else would they be able to make 8,000 HP??

Regarding the discussion on battery switches, my Outlaw has twin batteries with a switch with positions labeled Batt #1, Batt #2, Both and Off. If memory serves me correctly, there's a label on the switch that says do NOT run the engine with the switch set to Both (something about frying the alternator or regulator). I also know for a fact that when I'm towing to the lake after a rainy week and I go up a hill, the bilge pump will come on if there's enough rain water collected and pump it out; the switch is set to Off when the boat is on the trailer. I have yet to figure out in what conditions I would use the switch set to Both. Any ideas?

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

Going back to the Ferrari question for a moment, I'm certainly not an expert but the Ferrari may have had a magneto ignition. Magnetos generate their own electricity to fire spark plugs so as long as the battery was in good enough condition to start the engine a few times (assuming they would make some occasional stops during their Sunday drive) and they didn't run any other electrical systems (radio, lights, etc.), the magneto would have taken care of the ignition system.

Any ideas?

Yes Baha. I have ideas. Ferrari's do not have magnetos. I believe General Aviation Aircraft DO...but that is another topic.

The '79 Ferrari 308 GTS was the last 308 to have carburetters. Four Weber two barrels. The HP rating was 230 HP. Picture Magnum...PI. After that the cars went to Fuel Injection....the HP went down to 205......the environment and whatnot.

BTW: If you Turn OFF the electrical system in a General Aviation Aircraft..say a Cessna 172, The engine will continue to run. You will not have radios or anything else ...but you will have the engine. This happened to me on my "Long Solo Cross Country".

Early gasoline engines were Battery Ignition. Generators hadn't been invented yet. ..............NB

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Wolfeboro_Baja

... I have yet to figure out in what conditions I would use the switch set to Both. Any ideas?

A lot of boats only charge the battery that is on. So if you put the switch to "1" then battery #1 starts the boat, runs the engine and is charged by the alternator. In this case battery #2 in not used but also not being charged.

If you switch to "2" it's exactly the opposite. So if stop at the sandbar and run your radio all day and kill one battery the other will get you home.

Now if you get to the boat and batteries are a little weak from sitting too long, you can select "both" to get more cranking current and start the boat. You can also leave it on "both" to charge both batteries. But if you forget and leave it on "both" and go to the sandbar, run your radio, you drain both batteries. If you use enough current you could be stranded.

When I had this setup, I used "1" on Saturday and "2" on Sunday. That way both batteries got a charge every weekend and I avoided the risky "both"

Finally don't use "off" while the engine is running, on most boats it will instantly fry the alternator diodes and a possibly damage your electronics like stereos and GPS.

[Grady223]

Originally Posted by jrc

A lot of boats only charge the battery that is on. So if you put the switch to "1" then battery #1 starts the boat, runs the engine and is charged by the alternator. In this case battery #2 in not used but also not being charged.

If you switch to "2" it's exactly the opposite. So if stop at the sandbar and run your radio all day and kill one battery the other will get you home.

Now if you get to the boat and batteries are a little weak from sitting too long, you can select "both" to get more cranking current and start the boat. You can also leave it on "both" to charge both batteries. But if you forget and leave it on "both" and go to the sandbar, run your radio, you drain both batteries. If you use enough current you could be stranded.

When I had this setup, I used "1" on Saturday and "2" on Sunday. That way both batteries got a charge every weekend and I avoided the risky "both"

Finally don't use "off" while the engine is running, on most boats it will instantly fry the alternator diodes and a possibly damage your electronics like stereos and GPS.

And, don't leave it set to both, neither will charge and you could damage the alternator

[sugatam]

Is it true that when in a whaler you don't have to worry about getting swamped? My friend was telling me that a fully swamped whaler would still float and run like normal, and not sink or become prone to rolling over. If true, why don't more manufacturers build in enough positive flotation into their hulls?

[jrc]

Grady - That's not how my previous boat, with 1,2,both ,off switch worked. Both position would charge both batteries.

Sugatam - All boats under a certain size need positive flotation. On larger boats, the only way to get positive flotation would be to fill usuable areas, like cabins, closets and bathrooms with styrofoam. Most people would rather have the interior space.

[Grady223]

Originally Posted by jrc

Grady - That's not how my previous boat, with 1,2,both ,off switch worked. Both position would charge both batteries.

Sugatam - All boats under a certain size need positive flotation. On larger boats, the only way to get positive flotation would be to fill usuable areas, like cabins, closets and bathrooms with styrofoam. Most people would rather have the interior space.

My engine is a 250 Yamaha 2 stroke. It came with a warning not to use both at the same time as it would damage the alternator. If you had an I/O perhaps the alternator is more powerful.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Thank you JRC and Grady for your responses.

JRC, we do the same thing you mentioned about alternating battery usage each time we go out. For us, it's a little more difficult to remember which battery we used last since we tow our boat to the lake and usually only one day a week (usually Sunday, occasionally Saturday).

So it sounds like the only time I should use the "Both" position is when neither battery is strong enough to crank the engine by itself. And assuming it starts on "Both", I should switch back to battery 1 or 2 as quickly as possible WITHOUT hitting the "OFF" position. I may have to ask a Mercruiser mechanic the next time I'm at Channel Marine.

[Kerk]

I drove my first car home with No battery in it ! Ran off the generator. Took the 6 volt battery out of the ford 8 N tractor and started the car. I wrapped a rag around the cables. Returned the battery to the tractor and put it away. Drove the 32 Ford home with no registration or plates ! Did not get caught till my father found out !! Things were different in 52! Kerk

[NoBozo]

When the battery switch is set to BOTH.....BOTH Batterys WILL charge at the same time while the engine is running. There will be NO Damage to the alternator.

I can't speak for a two stroke as that infers an outboard. I have no recent experience with electrical systems in outboards. NB

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Sugatam

Is it true that when in a whaler you don't have to worry about getting swamped? My friend was telling me that a fully swamped whaler would still float and run like normal, and not sink or become prone to rolling over. If true, why don't more manufacturers build in enough positive flotation into their hulls?

I don't know if a Whaler over 19 feet will do that or not. Whaler's website shows a 19 foot model overloaded and swamped and they claim to install two and a half times the floation required by law. Federal law requires boats up to 19 feet with greater than 2hp engines to meet certain floatation requirements, but 20 feet and above no floatation is needed, so chances are if you have a 22 foot bowrider that swamps and the pump can't keep up, then it's going down. The reason is pretty $imple!

[Grady223]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

When the battery switch is set to BOTH.....BOTH Batterys WILL charge at the same time while the engine is running. There will be NO Damage to the alternator.

I can't speak for a two stroke as that infers an outboard. I have no recent experience with electrical systems in outboards. NB

It is a Yamaha outboard, I'll go by their warning in the manual.

[OCDACTIVE]

each boat, depending on year, type, set up etc. (too many variables) can have different electrical set ups. So although operating on "both" may inevidebly be bad for one type may be fine for another.

You hit the nail on the head, definately go with whatever your manual or manufactorer says.

[XCR-700]

Saw this on the news last night. The owner said it sank because the waves were coming over the back and swamped it,,,

Five rescued from lighthouse after boat sinks in squall

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Ever launch a boat without the plug in it? Trust me, they fill VERY quickly. I made the mistake once in a 20' Ebbtide at the Wolfeboro town docks. We barely got it back on the trailer. The engine compartment filled extremely fast from just a drain plug hole. It does not take long, and the bilge pump was not keeping up.

My point is, it does not take a large hole.

This is true. Shortly after I got my current 20' runabout, I forgot the plug. I got the boat back on the trailer without sinking.. Bilge Pump WAS running on Automatic. When I got home I got out my textbooks to see if I could calculate HOW Long it would have taken the boat to sink IF the Pump had NOT been running. The time was something like NINE Minutes...to sink with water coming in from just one... One Inch diameter drain hole. NB

[OCDACTIVE]

NB, interesting story on the Ferrari.. I am not an electric engineer so I couldn't explain why that would work but from my limited experience I have seen that there are many different ways these systems (car or boat) over the years have been set up.

As an example, as many may recall, you could run your car or boat without the battery at all. You could start a boat just by jumping it off a battery or another boat and as long as the engine was running you were fine. However 2 years ago I found out the hard way that on newer boats the circuits are set up a bit different. I was out on my 17 foot runabout. The boat was going perfectly and then just stopped. I checked everything and couldn't figure it out. I thought the way it simply shut off that there was a fuel pump problem.

After getting towed back and checking everything I noticed the battery connections were a bit corroded. Never would I think that this was the problem but thought it was best to clean them regardless.... Guess what! that was it. Somehow if the ciruit was broken (due to the corrossion) on the battery terminals the boat would not run.

Needless to say I now keep them very clean and keep a wire brush in my tool box.

[robmac]

In my experience,engines with electronic ignitions( non points distributors ) you will need a good connection to keep the engine running. With EFI you will have some sort of controler weather a PCM,ECM etc.,those systems you need more than 12 volts,generally closer to 13.2 to run at optimal performance. As a Kid I remember running on just an altenator no battery,you won't get away with that on todays vehicles.

[VtSteve]

Like others have stated, thanks for the follow-up. Interesting battery setup, I know some boats actually run like this for charging, but I think it depends on the switch itself. I was going to do two batteries, until I became confused over the choices and setups.

Hard to say what was leaking and when. Possibly something was damaged when it hit the lake bottom? Who knows when it occurred. Might have been a leak near the outdrive not being properly sealed, any number of things. This is the best ending to a nearly tragic story. Everyone was rescued and nobody was hurt.

Has the boat's owner had it with boating, or did he get back up on the horse?

[NoBozo]

Something to consider. We all know that when the battery is dead (for whatever reason) we can Jump Start the car with another car, or battery and you are good to go as long as you don't shut off the engine UNTIL.... you have allowed the alternator enough time to RE Charge the battery. This assumes that the alternator was not the problem in the first place, and the battery just went dead because you left the lights on.

If the battery is OLD, and will no longer "hold a charge".. and is deemed Useless, you can still drive the car..... "on the alternator".. as long as you jump start the car every time. Even though the battery is useless for starting the car.. it is Still IN The Circuit.

If you were to remove the battery from the Circuit while the engine is running, and the alternator is making power as it is, you will have broken the Circuit and I think you may be at Great RISK of damaging (Frying) the alternator. The battery, even though dead, acts like a Surge Protector...and completes the Circuit. Nobody FIXES Alternators, so you replace it even if it only has a cooked Diode.

In the case of the Ferrari, the BAD alternator was Left IN the Circuit. In a different case where the Battery is BAD, or Just Dead, The BAD battery should be left in place, connected, providing a complete Circuit.

OBVIOUSLY, in either case you are going to Replace the bad part VERY SOON.

If you feel left out reading this.. NOT TO WORRY: Today's engines in boats and cars are pretty much Well Beyond the capability of even those of us who used to work on our own stuff. No more self taught "Mechanics" who could actually FIX something. Today we have "Technicians" who have to go to school at great expense, where they learn how to hook up a computer to the engine to Diagnose the problem...... then replace the defective part in it's entirety.

My boat is a 1986 with an Old GM 350 V8, ...a Real Carburetor, a Real Distributer, Real Ignition Coil, Real Spark Plug Wires. I Can.... and Do.. work on my own boat. NB
--------------------------------------------

DAM: I really got carried away this time. My wife sometimes tells me to STIFLE when I start getting technical. Time for an Adult Beverage.

POP QUIZ Tomorrow at 10:00.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

It may seem strange but if you drive the boat with the plug out it will actually drain. ( No I did not see this on the three stooges) My dad used to do it on our boat which did not have a bilge to drain the rain water out. The water behind creates a vacuum if you are moving. And if that does not work, just drill more holes to let the water out...

Also keep in mind that if you blow a cooling hose you can pump even more gallons per minute into the boat by keeping the boat running.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

It may seem strange but if you drive the boat with the plug out it will actually drain. ( No I did not see this on the three stooges) My dad used to do it on our boat which did not have a bilge to drain the rain water out. The water behind creates a vacuum if you are moving. And if that does not work, just drill more holes to let the water out...

Also keep in mind that if you blow a cooling hose you can pump even more gallons per minute into the boat by keeping the boat running.

Just don't stop the boat!!!!

[Just Sold]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

It may seem strange but if you drive the boat with the plug out it will actually drain. ( No I did not see this on the three stooges) My dad used to do it on our boat which did not have a bilge to drain the rain water out. The water behind creates a vacuum if you are moving. And if that does not work, just drill more holes to let the water out...

Also keep in mind that if you blow a cooling hose you can pump even more gallons per minute into the boat by keeping the boat running.

Just ask John Birdsall about taking the plug out on the Puddy Tat every morning for the first run of the day or if it sat too long not being used. It was a ritual otherwise the boat would sink from the leaks.

[MeEscape]

Originally Posted by Just Sold

Just ask John Birdsall about taking the plug out on the Puddy Tat every morning for the first run of the day or if it sat too long not being used. It was a ritual otherwise the boat would sink from the leaks.

Ask John about all those times he stopped BEFORE putting the plug back in!!

[Just Sold]

Originally Posted by MeEscape

Ask John about all those times he stopped BEFORE putting the plug back in!!

Yes I do remember that too!!!

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

It may seem strange but if you drive the boat with the plug out it will actually drain. ( No I did not see this on the three stooges) My dad used to do it on our boat which did not have a bilge to drain the rain water out. The water behind creates a vacuum if you are moving. And if that does not work, just drill more holes to let the water out...

Also keep in mind that if you blow a cooling hose you can pump even more gallons per minute into the boat by keeping the boat running.

We used to do that on an old Glastron outboard we had. It had problems draining, and this worked fine.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

We used to do that on an old Glastron outboard we had. It had problems draining, and this worked fine.

Same here except the Glastron didn't have problems draining so much as I was lazy and it didn't have a bilge pump. So out for ride we'd go and then I'd open up the drain plug. Since it was the lowest point on the transom and the water behind the transom was being pushed out of the way, the water in the bilge drained out at the lowest point. Much manual pumping was thus sidestepped.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Same here except the Glastron didn't have problems draining so much as I was lazy and it didn't have a bilge pump. So out for ride we'd go and then I'd open up the drain plug. Since it was the lowest point on the transom and the water behind the transom was being pushed out of the way, the water in the bilge drained out at the lowest point. Much manual pumping was thus sidestepped.

This was the way we handled things on our 75 Bayliner.... for many years....pop the plug, let even a little more water in getting the boat moving..... slowly it starts going back out as you speeded up.... stick the plug back in from the inside... and you where all set.... Man outboards where nice, with a little bilge area, back at the transom..... It wasn't until the boat was 20 years old that the boat got a bilge pump.... But even then we would do it the old way to relive the memories once or twice a year.....