Misplaced priorities. Bash the competition before fixing your product

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand

Skipper, it sounds like you are holding a grudge of some sort against the folks at Duncan press. You have lambasted them several times on several different threads...and now another.

Duncan says (see above page) that they finally respond to a "racket" - well, I'm making a "racket" as the subtle (and less subtle) methods have not worked to achieve results and accuracy. You think I like lambasting them? I don't. This thread was prompted by their "challenge" last July - concentrating on Bizer rather than their own Duncan Press info.

I carry BOTH Bizer and Duncan maps on board the Sea Que. The map all by itself is OK although I prefer the Bizer map. What really gets me is the Duncan Press attitude and lack of corrections on their web site. Boaters and visitors deserve accurate information and not just hype. Duncan is not paying attention - skewing information. Claiming they get some info from a Marine Patrol "secret agent" (Bizer doesn't have a 007 source) - it's hype. Bragging about their advisers from Oregon. Now claiming a "NEW LOOK" for their map which hasn't changed in FIVE years - more hype.

I don't like the speed limit law but it is the law and therefore the current information should be conveyed to the boating public. We often complain about Capt Bonehead who ignores or doesn't know the rules. For instance, if Capt B. relies only on Duncan's map and web info then they can't know what the speed limit law is - they can't know all the places rafting is restricted are 2 prime examples. Do you condone that or should it be brought to the attention of all until it is fixed?

Sure, listing the US Coast Guard instead on NH Marine Patrol as the group conducting free classes at MP HQ is not going to cause a boating mishap - it IS indicative of what I consider a lack of attention to detail, particularly since they have been informed about these errors for OVER A YEAR! (end rant for now)

Am I the only one bothered by a presumed Lake authority that doesn't present current and accurate info on their web site? If so, I'll bite my lip and shut up. Otherwise, I'll help build the "racket" it seems to take to get them to respond.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Here are a few screen snapshots regarding Duncan Press changes policy, mission statement and their "New" design. They CLAIM that they want to educate boaters. Is this what they do or just what they want you to think they do? Plus I think calling FAQs "FAX" is funny.

[Rattlesnake Gal]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

Duncan says (see above page) that they finally respond to a "racket" - well, I'm making a "racket" as the subtle (and less subtle) methods have not worked to achieve results and accuracy. You think I like lambasting them? I don't. This thread was prompted by their "challenge" last July - concentrating on Bizer rather than their own Duncan Press info.

I carry BOTH Bizer and Duncan maps on board the Sea Que. The map all by itself is OK although I prefer the Bizer map. What really gets me is the Duncan Press attitude and lack of corrections on their web site. Boaters and visitors deserve accurate information and not just hype. Duncan is not paying attention - skewing information. Claiming they get some info from a Marine Patrol "secret agent" (Bizer doesn't have a 007 source) - it's hype. Bragging about their advisers from Oregon. Now claiming a "NEW LOOK" for their map which hasn't changed in FIVE years - more hype.

I don't like the speed limit law but it is the law and therefore the current information should be conveyed to the boating public. We often complain about Capt Bonehead who ignores or doesn't know the rules. For instance, if Capt B. relies only on Duncan's map and web info then they can't know what the speed limit law is - they can't know all the places rafting is restricted are 2 prime examples. Do you condone that or should it be brought to the attention of all until it is fixed?

Sure, listing the US Coast Guard instead on NH Marine Patrol as the group conducting free classes at MP HQ is not going to cause a boating mishap - it IS indicative of what I consider a lack of attention to detail, particularly since they have been informed about these errors for OVER A YEAR! (end rant for now)

Am I the only one bothered by a presumed Lake authority that doesn't present current and accurate info on their web site? If so, I'll bite my lip and shut up. Otherwise, I'll help build the "racket" it seems to take to get them to respond.

You are not the only one bothered. With something so important as a lake map, it simply must be accurate. Your boat and perhaps your life may depend upon it.

Like Al, we also carry both Bizer and Duncan maps on our boat. That is how I learn the lake, following along while underway - R-Guy has his and I have mine. The look of the Duncan map is quite pleasing, but I would never count on it as I do the Bizer map.

The topless little girl photograph on their website bothers me greatly. I'm no prude, but it is completely inappropriate an should be removed.

I hope this thread gets Duncan on the ball to fix their maps and website. Thanks Skipper for getting this started. Duncan should be challenged to be the best they can be. A few tweaks on their part and problem should be solved.

[Commodore]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

Am I the only one bothered by a presumed Lake authority that doesn't present current and accurate info on their web site? If so, I'll bite my lip and shut up. Otherwise, I'll help build the "racket" it seems to take to get them to respond.

You are not the only one bothered by missing or inaccurate information on the Duncan Chart web pages.

IIRC and reading back some of the older messages Duncan people have ignored e-mail and even postal mail with corrections sent to them years ago and it appears like they still have not changed. They compound the situation with even more inaccuracies and oversights.

Some forumites don't seem to get your points but me, RG and I am sure many other forum users do understand what you are saying and your motivation.

If Duncan Charts want to hold themselves out to be an authority then they should be an accurate authority on paper and on the web.

Tell it like it is and preserver Skipper!

[Winnipesaukee Divers]

The rules are: you have to buy a new "Chart" every year, because the state moves the rocks during the winter.

When I'm diving I see where the rocks were last year and where they are now... Sometimes it just a few inches or so, but the big ones are several feet and sometimes yards.

Don't get caught living in the past, get that new chart and be safe on Lake Winnipesaukee.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee Divers

The rules are: you have to buy a new "Chart" every year, because the state moves the rocks during the winter.

When I'm diving I see where the rocks were last year and where they are now... Sometimes it just a few inches or so, but the big ones are several feet and sometimes yards.

Don't get caught living in the past, get that new chart and be safe on Lake Winnipesaukee.

So you're saying that one or both of these companies re-scan and update these markings for the ENTIRE lake EVERY YEAR?

I think that if you're within "a few yards" of where a big rock is (or was) supposed to be, you're probably too close anyway.

Seems like getting a new chart every year would be a waste for the average boater, and would still be LAST years version of accurate at best anyway.

Your common sense, however, should be kept current.

[Winnipesaukee Divers]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

So you're saying that one or both of these companies re-scan and update these markings for the ENTIRE lake EVERY YEAR?

I think that if you're within "a few yards" of where a big rock is (or was) supposed to be, you're probably too close anyway.

Seems like getting a new chart every year would be a waste for the average boater, and would still be LAST years version of accurate at best anyway.

Your common sense, however, should be kept current.

Don't take my word for it, get a mask and fins and check it out for yourself. Case in point: the mark off Seawall Point (entrance of Wolfeboro Harbor), marks a big rock 12' in diameter 3' below the surface. You can see where this rock has been pushed 20-30 feet, sand on the south side and small stones & rocks piled up on the north side. Clear evidence that the State has been out there moving the rocks... I would have never believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

[JMR]

I for one have significant damage from the rocks moving into my docks and breakwaters. I am sure it is going to cost a lot of $$ to fix.

[VtSteve]

usually anyway.

From the bold statements made on Bizer's web site, it would appear to be the only real choice for GPS users as well. Since both companies boast so much, and attack the other, I would think someone at each company would be in charge of getting the word out on their competitor's mistakes.

BTW, I personally let some of the things companies say go by the wayside. But when it ratchets up to the level it has, I tend to lose respect for management. I couldn't access the Duncan Press website, it appears to be down.

I read the FAQ section on Bizer's site, and the reason they started working on the chart. Commendable idea, proactive, love their ambition. It appears Bizer has done a great job in setting out to do a better job than what had already been on the market. I also love it when a small outfit is the one that did it.

But if it were my business, I'd want to project a different image than what they project. It wouldn't stop me from buying their product, but I try to be a little professional and above board in my operations. Perception and image are important down the road. I must say Skipper, your posts on this subject read exactly like parts of their web site, only nastier

Look, not knocking their product, only the delivery. Rising above the level of competition is sometimes the only way to beat them.

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Well, at least Duncan Press updated their homepage.

I learned the lake in my teens with a Duncan Press chart on my stepfather's cruiser. Now that I have my own boat, I've come to trust the accuracy of the Bizer chart while my wife prefers the Duncan chart. Whatever......so far, the only time I've dinged a prop was when I didn't refer to EITHER chart!

OCD, I was wondering the same thing about the moving rocks; could it really be as simple as the winter ice moving the rocks? I'm no expert, I'm just throwing the question out there.....

[trfour]

From my many years and very enjoyable boating adventures here on our Great Lake Winnipesaukee, besides starting out from the seat of anothers, so to speak, we used Duncan's and stayed pretty dry, 'cept for an occasional on porpoise dive into on a hot summer's day to cool off...
Now, another thing that I liked about the Duncan Press map was that it also showed the prominent surrounding mountain summit heights, as I enjoyed also snowmobiling from living here year round!

I also enjoy my BiZer 6th Edition Chart Of Lake Winnipesaukee, NH.


Lets put something into prospective over here! Of all the unfortunate mishap's, neither Duncan Press, and or BiZer Maps put anyone in danger!
They try to put the rest of us in the KNOW!
Dang Rather.



Terry
________________________________________

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee Divers

Don't take my word for it, get a mask and fins and check it out for yourself. Case in point: the mark off Seawall Point (entrance of Wolfeboro Harbor), marks a big rock 12' in diameter 3' below the surface. You can see where this rock has been pushed 20-30 feet, sand on the south side and small stones & rocks piled up on the north side. Clear evidence that the State has been out there moving the rocks... I would have never believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

I could be 100% wrong. But just making a statement.. In all my years on the lake I have never seen a barge or anyone out moving rocks. You would think they would either blow them up or move only those that are posing significant hazards to major boating lanes.

Why would they be out moving a rock many times over. My own thought would be that the ice is moving them if they are that close to the surface.

Again not saying you are wrong just my own opinion.

I would hope they would be out spending money on more important things.
Just from an economic standpoint isn't it much less to mark them then to try to move them?

[Winnipesaukee Divers]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

I could be 100% wrong. But just making a statement.. In all my years on the lake I have never seen a barge or anyone out moving rocks. You would think they would either blow them up or move only those that are posing significant hazards to major boating lanes.

Why would they be out moving a rock many times over. My own thought would be that the ice is moving them if they are that close to the surface.

Again not saying you are wrong just my own opinion.

I would hope they would be out spending money on more important things.
Just from an economic standpoint isn't it much less to mark them then to try to move them?

Of course you don't see them... They do it in the early winter just before the lake freezes over, during the night. I mean come on man, just because you don't see Santa or the Easter Bunny doesn't mean they don't come either... They sure do at my house or have you been bad???

Get your mask out and come take a look for yourself. (I told you of one prime example).

If it not the State that’s moving them, then who??? I suppose you're going to tell me it's Mother Nature... I ask, what's she got to gain from it???

[Pineedles]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee Divers

When I'm diving I see where the rocks were last year and where they are now... Sometimes it just a few inches or so, but the big ones are several feet and sometimes yards.

Are you pulling our leg? Rocks move? Anybody have an eplanation as to how dude they dude it?

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Pineedles

Are you pulling our leg? Rocks move? Anybody have an eplanation as to how dude they dude it?

Rocks Move..? Lest you people forget..and apparently some have forgotten the Shenanigans that went on on Rattlesnake this past winter. STUFF Happens that no one can explain. Just sayin. NB

[jrc]

You guys got it all wrong. The marine patrol only moves rocks to put them back in the right place. Sometimes the ice moves them and sometimes people hit them. The MP will use the GPS coordinates and move them back. So if you see a rock out of place, call the MP.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Pineedles

Are you pulling our leg? Rocks move? Anybody have an eplanation as to how dude they dude it?

I'm gonna say they are the fresh water, aquatic cousins of the Moving Death Valley Rocks. Yup, that they is. Never heard of the MDVR ? Whadda living under ... a ... hedge. Read all about it here. See this guy race, his name is Gonzales.



Nope the states not movin 'em, the ice ain't neither. It's da alienz. You've seen their spaceship. What more proof do ya need ?




{apologies to Al for the derailment. I now return y'all to your normal squabbling}

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

I believe the Rock Movement really started with Elvis.

And if I remember correctly, Elvis sightings around the lake have been noted on the Bizer map!

P.S. I'm not squabbling, just complaining about Duncan Press' many month efforts to debunk Bizer's claims rather than concerning themselves with posting accurate information about important matters like the area covered by the 45/25 Speed Limit and, to a lesser extent, the location of all the No Rafting Zones on their Duncan website.

[Pineedles]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

I believe the Rock Movement really started with Elvis.

Thanks Al, for the first and hopefully not the last laugh for the day.

But actually it was Roy Orbison.

[Misty Blue]

We use both Bizer and Duncan for different reasons.

Duncan has much better information on things "shoreward" of the Lake. When we have guests and they want to see where Geneiva Point is we use the Duncan. It just shows the land better.

When underway we use the Bizer. They do not worry about what is on the shore except for what is needed for navigation. It is less cluttered and easier to use. Just my 2 sents.

Misty Blue.

[Gilligan]

I think some of you have missed the Skipper's point. Both Duncan and Bizer maps will get you around the lake. The problem is the Duncan web site. They concentrate on promoting their maps and countering Bizer's comparisons. Meanwhile some details on the Duncan map web site are inaccurate and corrections are not current which includes either omitting data or listing out of date information. Duncan does not seem to be responsive when notified of errors or oversights. On the other hand there have been repeated demonstrations of how very responsive Bizer has been and wants to be. Both have supported this web site with advertising but I have not seen Duncan ads lately.

Would you like getting a ticket for speeding out in the Broads because Duncan's web does not list it as being governed by the speed limit? They list the inside of Rattlesnake Island as a speed zone but not the Broads side or the whole lake. How about a ticket or a talking to from Marine Patrol for making a 3 boat raft in a no rafting zone that is not listed as such on the Duncan map or web site? How about trying to launch at Ames Farms ramp? Duncan's map shows it as open to the public with no web page correction indicating that it is limited to guests and not currently publically available? These are not new situations.

I agree. Duncan should get their own web site in order before they try to scrutinize their competitions claims.

[VtSteve]

Without getting nit-picky, what is the real-world significance of a chart's website? While it would be nice if it was informative and totally accurate, is it not the chart or GPS map itself that is of importance?

[NoBozo]

SO: Say you have a Duncan chart and a Bizer chart and a GPS Chart plotter.

Now you are out there in the boat and you notice a small discrepancy between one or more of the above. Total Confusion now sets in and big arguments ensue...all the while the boat may be speeding into imminent danger Will Robinson.

WHICH Source is Right..? Maybe better to have only one Chart, a GPS and excercise some seamanship and common sense. NB

[ishoot308]

Gee Skip it looks like Bizers web site could use a little updating also... How long has Nothin Fancy been gone from the Weirs... 5 years now??... yet it still shows up on Bizers web site as a restaurant in the Weirs!

Give it a rest and give Duncan press a break. They have been around a long time and offer boaters a quality product that has been used safely for decades.

Dan

[Sandy Beach]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Gee Skip it looks like Bizers web site could use a little updating also... How long has Nothin Fancy been gone from the Weirs... 5 years now??... yet it still shows up on Bizers web site as a restaurant in the Weirs!

Give it a rest and give Duncan press a break. They have been around a long time and offer boaters a quality product that has been used safely for decades.

Dan

Skipper, give it a rest after Duncan corrects their web pages.

ishoot308, For how many months should we give Duncan Press a break?

I looked at Bizer's web site and can not find Nothin Fancy listed as a Weirs area restaurant. Assuming you did see it listed two days ago and it doesn't seem to be listed today that sure says a lot for the attention Bizer gives to their information and desire for accuracy. Apparently Bizer's update took less than 2 days of it being brought to our or their attention. That's just a restaurant listing, what about more important issues? Duncan corrections or updates one or two years since notification and not corrected yet . Duhhh!

Following safe navigation routes on their map is one thing, no one is faulting that. Wrong, misleading or missing important information on the Duncan web site is quite another issue that should be addressed. Duncan promotes looking to it's web site for updated information and they should follow through. Some things have changed since their latest map was published in 2005.

[Happy Gourmand]

I don't buy a chart and use it as a restaurant guide.
I don't buy a chart and use it to find no rafting zones.
I don't buy a chart to find out what the speed limit is.
I don't buy a chart to find current laws and rules
I don't buy a chart for etc. etc. etc.
I DO buy a chart to be able to help me safely navigate the lake and to point out the many hazardous areas that are a detriment to the safe operation of my boat.
My opinion is that BOTH charts do this beautifully. Some prefer the brown chart, others prefer the green chart. To each his/her own.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Sandy Beach

Skipper, give it a rest after Duncan corrects their web pages.

ishoot308, For how many months should we give Duncan Press a break?

I looked at Bizer's web site and can not find Nothin Fancy listed as a Weirs area restaurant. Assuming you did see it listed two days ago and it doesn't seem to be listed today that sure says a lot for the attention Bizer gives to their information and desire for accuracy. Apparently Bizer's update took less than 2 days of it being brought to our or their attention. That's just a restaurant listing, what about more important issues? Duncan corrections or updates one or two years since notification and not corrected yet . Duhhh!

Following safe navigation routes on their map is one thing, no one is faulting that. Wrong, misleading or missing important information on the Duncan web site is quite another issue that should be addressed. Duncan promotes looking to it's web site for updated information and they should follow through. Some things have changed since their latest map was published in 2005.

Sandy Beach;

I don't have a dog in this fight and really don't care what chart you use.

My point is Duncan and Bizer are the only two companies that offer decent navigation charts for Winni. Why continually slam (and yes Al "Skipper of the Sea Que" has repeatedly slammed Duncan) a company that has produced a decent product for MANY years. Would you be happier if there was only one available chart to use and purchase?? Personally I find the back and forth bickering on this subject ridiculous and in poor taste. Let's allow both products to stand on their own merit and the boating public can decide which chart they want to to use. (I use both by the way)

Both Bizer and Duncan offer a quality product that serves a wonderful purpose to all boaters. I see no reason to bash either company as the product they each offer may not be perfect, but both are very useful to the boating public.

Just an fyi...Mr Bizer did contact me via P.M. to inform me he had updated his web site and removed Nothin Fancy from his restaurant listing. Hopefully all boaters will feel much safer navigating with this revision...

Have a great weekend!

Dan